SERIOUS DEBATE: Gay Marriage [Archive]

Raptor

January 5th, 2004, 03:36 PM

I can see Zeptron's desire to bring forth an OFTEN controversial topic for SERIOUS CONSIDERATION. That is what the Debate idea is all about: FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE PRESENTED, not relying on prejudices, theology and other "crutches" to "stand in" for sound personal research and analysis and presenting YOUR OWN OPINION in a logical, unbiased way. The Rules and Guidelines now in place should preclude a lot of what happened the last time this topic came up, actually "freeing up" the subject for a better exchange of views.
I suggest we give it a try. Participation in ANY topic is strictly voluntary so if someone feels they cannot discuss it as prescribed, by all means sit this one out. No one is keeping score or making note of where anyone "stands" on ANY issues that might be brought up in the forum. A poster can also delete their own entries at any time or PM a Mod to do it for them. No problem!

Hybrid Gojira

January 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM

Quote[/b] (Raptor @ Jan. 05 2004,15:36)]That is what the Debate idea is all about: FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE PRESENTED, not relying on prejudices, theology and other "crutches" to "stand in" for sound personal research and analysis and presenting YOUR OWN OPINION in a logical, unbiased way.
Ultimately, it's nearly impossible to do that. The basis of one's beliefs are generally based on religion and personal biases. Taking religion from the mix, especially on this type of subject, is something you cannot do and then present your opinion accurately. It can be done with religion included, as long as people are willing to accept an intelligent post.

I remember a topic about animals having souls - the same can be said about that. If you exclude religion, then people who don't use that as their basis can present their opinion, while others are hindered.

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Goji Son

January 5th, 2004, 04:19 PM

If gay people want to get married/unioned whatever I have no problem with it.  Love is love, and we all have a human right to love another human and share our life with them for the rest of their life.  I don't see gays marrying as causing any real anguish in anyones life that doesn't know them personally.  If they are doing a sinful deed then I guess love itself is a sin.

Aqualla

January 5th, 2004, 06:52 PM

As far as I'm concerned. gay people should have the same rights as "straight" people (I hate that phrase as it makes gay people seem warped.)

None of my friends who are gay act differently from others or are any less loving than "straight" people I know.  In fact, if anything, they are more loving than others, but many of them keep it more personal.

Godjira

January 5th, 2004, 07:15 PM

If 2 people of the same sex want to get married, then let them go ahead and do it.  I have never heard a single valid argument against it and with good reason: There are no valid arguments against it.

Most arguments against it are similar to: "what's next? Legalizing beastiality and pedophilia" and other such slippery slopes that have no basis in fact.

And of course, there's the ever popular appeal to popularity which is basically "since most of the american public doesn't want it, it should remain illegal".  Gee whiz, slavery used to be accepted by the majority too.  I guess that should never have been un-legalized too! http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Gothmog

January 5th, 2004, 08:11 PM

<font color='#FF0000'>This is one of the problems with running a country with multiple cultures and religions. The politicians have a lot of different people to please.
This is different from my country, Sweden. Here there aren`t even close to as many different cultures as in the US.
We have legalized gay marriage, but only outside the church.
The christian church still doesn`t accept homosexual couples getting married in the church, which is a damn shame.

I hath returned......

Aqualla

January 5th, 2004, 08:21 PM

Quote[/b] ]We have legalized gay marriage, but only outside the church.
The christian church still doesn`t accept homosexual couples getting married in the church, which is a damn shame.

All the gay people I know aren't religious and purely want a "marriage" that gives them the same 'status' as straight married couples.  Most of them aren't bothered about the tax benefits, etc, but purely want something that shows their commitment to each other, like straight poeple have.

Raptor

January 5th, 2004, 08:55 PM

Quote[/b] (Hybrid Gojira @ Jan. 05 2004,14:58)]Quote[/b] (Raptor @ Jan. 05 2004,15:36)]FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE PRESENTED, not relying on prejudices, theology and other "crutches" to "stand in" for sound personal research and analysis and presenting YOUR OWN OPINION in a logical, unbiased way.
The basis of one's beliefs are generally based on religion and personal biases. Taking religion from the mix, especially on this type of subject, is something you cannot do and then present your opinion accurately. It can be done with religion included, as long as people are willing to accept an intelligent post.

I remember a topic about animals having souls - the same can be said about that. If you exclude religion, then people who don't use that as their basis can present their opinion, while others are hindered.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif
Religion is ACQUIRED. At the same time, even various beliefs will differ on certain subjects. As for bias, it inhibits the analytical process, just like prejudgement. "Taking religion from the mix" is exactly what needs to be done in so many situations. People need to be able to form their own opinions and I don't believe "religion" is going to foster looking at issues both pro and con, which is what debates are about.

Godjira

January 5th, 2004, 09:53 PM

Quote[/b] ]Religion is ACQUIRED. At the same time, even various beliefs will differ on certain subjects. As for bias, it inhibits the analytical process, just like prejudgement. "Taking religion from the mix" is exactly what needs to be done in so many situations. People need to be able to form their own opinions and I don't believe "religion" is going to foster looking at issues both pro and con, which is what debates are about.

Your optimism is refreshing, but you have too much faith in humanity.  There are people out there who are completely inseparable from their religion.  They're simply incapable of making a decision without thinking about its theological consequences.  And if I remember what happened in the other homosexuality therat correctly, they lurk around here as well.

Raptor

January 5th, 2004, 10:56 PM

Actually, I might be one of the biggest cynics around here! http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Even seeing humanity at its worst should not make us believe ALL are the same. Marriage is often "sanctioned" by a church and/or state (government). Love between two individuals knows no such bounds, and shouldn't.
The last topic I believe did focus on (or a post brought it up) the couple's relationship in the eyes of the "state" and being eligible for various benefits male-female couples received. Politics has been mentioned above as elected officials try to please their constituents, who in many areas (the "Bible Belt" of the U.S., for instance) will get quite vocal about their position on issues. This could very well be what too many of us in the States are familiar with so seeing Goji Son's, Aqualla's, Godjira's and Kaiju-O Gojira's posts is most refreshing. When folks are willing to look beyond the familiar borders of their family, school, neighborhood or even country, that is when we expand horizons and how be are able to really THINK about things.
Japan, home of our favorite film entertainment, has different culture and customs from us but we don't carry on about it the way we do about what some of our own townsfolk might do or believe in. Some ideas and concepts often seem "strange" for various reasons but at least look at them objectively and then make a decision. If we can keep that in mind, I believe life would be a lot less hassle for everyone.

Hybrid Gojira

January 5th, 2004, 11:36 PM

Quote[/b] (Raptor @ Jan. 05 2004,20:55)]Religion is ACQUIRED.
Agreed. However, many things, including opinions, are as well. We all have different viewpoints, and that is fine. Mine happens to be biblical, which is why I have yet to express it (as the guidelines instructed) and brought up this issue. If I cannot elaborate on my opinion, there would be little point in posting it.

Melkor

January 6th, 2004, 04:48 AM

Well, this is really one of the most controversial toipcis for the serious debates yet. As a practicing Catholic, my viewpoint happens to be Biblical, but since religious debates are a no-no in the Forums, I'll just post the gist of it: marriage is a sacred union between man and woman. In the bible, the woman was not made for another woman, but for the man, and the man likewise. To quote Pope Leo XII on his encyclical 'Arcanum', promulgated on 10 February 1880: " . . . . marriage was not instituted by the will of man, but, from the very beginning, by the authority and command of God; . . . Christ, the Author of the New Covenant, raised it from a rite of nature to be a sacrament, and gave to His Church legislative and judicial power with regard to the bond of union." I'm going to leave it at that, keeping in mind the no religious debate rule. Hope I didn't sound bigoted.

Peace,

Melkor

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kritaya

January 6th, 2004, 11:26 AM

Quote[/b] (Melkor @ Jan. 06 2004,04:48)]To quote Pope Leo XII on his encyclical 'Arcanum', promulgated on 10 February 1880:
I don't know Catholicism, but wasn't it at some point a sin to eat meat on Fridays? That was changed (retroactive I hope). What if some future Pope pronounces same-sex unions are okay?

imposterzilla_exe

January 6th, 2004, 12:05 PM

I really have no problem as long as no one gets hurt then you can do whatever you want. you can dress up in leather boy scout uniforms and go do the hussle for all i care as long as no one gets hurt do whatever ya want.

Godjira, this ot, but where ya get your cool avatar?

Burkion

January 6th, 2004, 04:54 PM

Hell, they want to get married? Let them. I realy could care less.

Komissar

January 6th, 2004, 06:16 PM

I'm going to come off as a little bit estranged and bigoted, but marriage was designed as a strictly heterosexual union. I don't need to cite "Arcanum" again (thanks Melkor), but that is my stand as a practicing Catholic and I don't waver. I don't hate gay people, some of my best friends are gay. But I think that out-of-the-way groups (they're not far away enough to be called "fringe") try to force themselves into roles cut out for different groups (I don't crusade against them, Necessarily, but just to make a point: gay marriage, women/open gays in the military, the inclusion of women in traditional all-male institutions like boys' schools). But I don't feel the Church's credos are always the final say in what goes on in my life. I think the church has dwelled too long on esoteric matters and lost its focus on keeping people's faith in Jesus. I don't believe that gay marriages should be allowed, but I can't stop them if they really want to!

P.S. If love knows no bonds, why  do people put so much stock in a marriage certificate and a ring?

kritaya

January 6th, 2004, 11:17 PM

This is stupid...

Quote[/b] ]What if some future Pope pronounces same-sex unions are okay?

...And this is smart...

Quote[/b] ]All they are doing is the same thing African-Americans did in the late 50's and in the 60's. Asking for the rights that they should already have. They are not asking that churchs change their views just that they get the rights any and every American should get.

I feel like a total idiot. There is a secular side to this debate and a religious side. Barring people's religious beliefs, there is no secular reason why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Society will not crumble, the economy will not collapse (any more than it already has), and worlds will not collide. If a gay catholic (or whatever) wants his/her marriage validated by the church, that is a totally separate issue from the secular issues of property ownership, inheritance, joint tax filing, etc.

Is that the gist of it? Or am I wrong again?

Tomzilla

January 6th, 2004, 11:45 PM

My opinion on this subject has already been established. But for those who don't know where I stand, then see Godjira's post or Goji Son's, since what they said is exactly how I feel on this issue.

(Something I noticed: Reason why teenagers at High Schools are against this is because they know if they support gay marriage, then other kids would think they're "gay" or something. Truly sad...)

Saruman

January 7th, 2004, 01:50 AM

Quote[/b] (mecha-kumonga @ Jan. 06 2004,20:39)]Well I am Roman Cathlic therefore I have read the bible and of couse know the churchs view on this subject. I have some Gay friends therefore I know their (my friends) veiws on this subject.
I think people don't understand what the gay community is asking for. They are asking for the leagel ability to marry not the religous. You see there is a diffrence. The church will never allow it and they know that. They want it to say on legal papers in the goverment archives, on there taxs, on their morgages, on the bank statements that they are legally (therefore morally, do to the fact that laws are based on morallity for the most part) together as one. It will never affect their next door neabor, or the people in the supermarket, or the people at the mall, it will not affect the pope. It will alow them to have the same rights under the law that a married couple have.
Thats what our (the usa's) nation is made of. Rights!!! It dosn't say in the consutition "The rights we are about to list are invalid for Gays"
This country is for everyone. We give the rights to Neo Nazis and to people that spend there whole life hating other people, the people that ran Enron in to the ground and cost people there life savings have these rights so why not people that may have a diffrent out look on life then most of us.
The rights are for everyone and thats what its all about. If you will give the rights to one group all groups must have the right, they are AMERICANS too.

All they are doing is the same thing African-Americans did in the late 50's and in the 60's. Asking for the rights that they should already have. They are not asking that churchs change their views just that they get the rights any and every American should get.
Great post mecha-kumonga, you pretty much nailed it spot on and I couldnt agree with you more.

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Melkor

January 7th, 2004, 04:57 AM

Quote[/b] (doug wood @ Jan. 06 2004,11:26)]I don't know Catholicism, but wasn't it at some point a sin to eat meat on Fridays?
No, I don't think it was. But Catholics aged 14 upwards regularly abstain from eating meat during the Lenten Season, though it could develop into a practice and some may choose not to eat meat at all on Fridays. There is also fasting, though there is an age bracket for that as well.

Peace,

Melkor

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Komissar

January 7th, 2004, 07:36 AM

Quote[/b] (mecha-kumonga @ Jan. 06 2004,20:39)]All they are doing is the same thing African-Americans did in the late 50's and in the 60's. Asking for the rights that they should already have. They are not asking that churchs change their views just that they get the rights any and every American should get.
Well, strictly secular marriage is okay, I guess. I think that the church needn't change its standpoint, but everyone has the right to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness" under our Constitution. Barring one group because of its minute differences isn't good, seeing as "all men are created equal". Religiously, I don't advocate this, but like Mr. Wood said, there are completely different ground rules with regards to secularity.

mecha-kumonga

January 7th, 2004, 01:36 PM

Komissar you are right. The church dosn't need to change their views on this subject. Every person that I know that is gay (i know a lot because my brother is) is only after the goverment to change its views. Not one of them really care if the church does granted they say it would be nice but in the end thats not what they are asking for. They are looking for the rights all Americans should have.

Mecha-Rodan

January 8th, 2004, 05:16 PM

I respect gay rights, they are people too, and they have the right to live, but, I don't think they should be allowed to marry. Marriage, for thousands of years, has always been between man and woman. It's more a traditional thing than a religious thing. Lesbians have been around since before ancient greece, hell, there are truckloads of famous ones, but you rarely hear about gay marriage. The bible says that marriage is a bond between a man and woman that is to be shared only by those two parties, and those two sexes. People may not beleive in the bible, but lesbians are younger than straits (thankfully, or else we would be extinct), and lesbian rights are much younger than that. Public recognition and acceptence has only developed in the past few years. Marriage is a passed down tradition to be shared by husband and wife, and we humans love tradition (though we usually twist it beyond recognition), so gays shouldn't be able to marry in the traditional way. They could come up with their own ceremonies; for all I care, they could get a kind of marriage lisence, but not like a husband and wife. There's my two cents. Please read the sign on your way out.

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SandwormPhish

January 12th, 2004, 11:53 AM

There's absolutely no reason not to give gays the right to a legally binding, secular marriage and in fact most of the arguments I've seen against it are really stupid (if we do that we'll have to legalize pedophilia to!  *clubs said people with the Crowbar of Logic* ) or entirely religously based (or both in some cases).

anguirus55

January 12th, 2004, 07:31 PM

You know what's ironic?  That the primary reasons the U.S. government cites against allowing secular gay marriage are RELIGIOUS in nature!  The only way gay couples CAN get married is through certain churches!  That's an irony.  "Natural law" is the only legal justification for it, which was also the justification for, among other things, not allowing interracial marriage.

Oh, and next time some moron says that allowing gays is one step closer to allowing pedophilia and bestiality, I'd point out that people and animals are BORN hetero- or homosexual, and that gay marriage is between two consenting adults.

The Peacemaker

January 12th, 2004, 09:11 PM

I know I don't visit the Roost too often, or post that much anymore, but I just thought I'd check up on the site. I saw this topic, and I figured "Well, why I'm here, I'll throw in my change."

IMO, I think gay marriages shouldn't be allowed. I think being gay is wrong, and I don't see any good in it at all.

So you say people are born gay? Uh, sorry, I don't buy that. Sure, we're all Americans, but I think someone who finds they have to resort to the same sex for love, is mental. There's got to be some important fluid not getting to the brain. Unless you just wanted to be different or individual, I don't really see why anyone would want to be gay at all.

It's just sick. A guy is intended by nature to be with a girl, and a girl is intended to be with a guy.

Look, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm a Christian. God says it's a sin, so it's a sin. As an American, I have the right to be a Christian, and I have the right to say "no" to gay marriages.

Emperor Violenjiger

January 12th, 2004, 09:17 PM

I wonder how much flack you'll get for that...

Quote[/b] ]There's got to be some important fluid not getting to the brain. Yeah. It's something like that.. and if they don't have a bond with their dad at a young age it's what causes it.. or something like that. I don't know much on psychiatry though...

Goji Son

January 12th, 2004, 11:26 PM

I don't think one's relationship with their father has anything to do with their sexual preferance. *

Opinions are opinions, sure God says that a guy is supposed to be with a woman but that is not a natural law. *Nature has no set rules, if it did then the world would be in constant chaos. *

Gay people see past physical attraction and go for personality just like we do. *They fall in love with the same attributes like sense of humor or intelligence just like we do. *Also, you can complain about gay sex being disgusting, but if you think about it, sex itself wasn't intended to be pleasurable. *It's something you did for survival but we have adapted it into our everyday life for pleasure. *Sex is something that isn't really that pleasurable to look at really between normal people. *And even sex between heteros is very similar to gay sex. *We do the same positions that I will not discuss on this thread as they do, how is it anymore disgusting. *Because it's between two men? *Women? *So what, sex is mean't to be private between the people who did... it. *

Woah, kinda got off topic...

SandwormPhish

January 13th, 2004, 12:14 AM

Quote[/b] (The Peacemaker @ Jan. 12 2004,21:11)]
Quote[/b] ]IMO, I think gay marriages shouldn't be allowed. I think being gay is wrong, and I don't see any good in it at all.

Well as we're not supposed to get into religous debates I won't deal with that.  However keeping that in mind, can you think of a good, non-religous based reason?

Quote[/b] ]So you say people are born gay? Uh, sorry, I don't buy that.

Check around, I've seen a number of articles indicating that a portion of the homosexual population is indeed gay genetically (of course there are also going to be some that do so by choice)

Quote[/b] ]
Sure, we're all Americans,

May not be true and what does this have to do with anything?

Quote[/b] ]
but I think someone who finds they have to resort to the same sex for love, is mental. There's got to be some important fluid not getting to the brain. Unless you just wanted to be different or individual, I don't really see why anyone would want to be gay at all.

That's you, however different people have different tastes.  By this logic someone could claim that anyone who likes women with breasts smaller than their head is mental.

Quote[/b] ]It's just sick. A guy is intended by nature to be with a girl, and a girl is intended to be with a guy.

And?  If we're going the unnatural = bad route then I suggest you get rid of all your electronics, books, videos, indoor plumbing, electricity, etc. because it's not natural for human beings to use these things either.  Hell marriage isn't natural either so lets get rid of that while we're at it.

Quote[/b] ]Look, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm a Christian. God says it's a sin, so it's a sin.

Again this is a religous thing, while this debate is supposed to be limited to secular reason.  So ask yourself:

When a gay couple has sex in the privacy of their own home do they harm anybody?  Do they deprive anyone of their rights?

anguirus55

January 13th, 2004, 10:14 PM

Quote[/b] ]It's just sick. A guy is intended by nature to be with a girl, and a girl is intended to be with a guy.

Without commenting on the religious angle, if nature intends it, then why are there more than 450 animal species with observed homosexuals?

It is literally a natural phenomenon.

Showa Mothra #1

January 16th, 2004, 09:13 PM

I really don't have any issues with Gay people at all. What disguts more is incest relationships. But that's WAY of the topic, but since I brought it up, let me ask this. EDIT

Please direct your question to Peacemaker via PM or email as it is off topic.

Note: God knows why I made that post.

Cyndi

October 21st, 2006, 11:57 AM

Yeah thread ressurection again, but I have something to say and I think some people may not like it.

Whose frigging business is it whether two people who are in love want to get married? I know my own religion forbids *** relationships, but I say if God created love and gave us free will, then why not let two people love each other? It's not like someone decides to be ***.

Should gender really MATTER? Love is love, period.

godofPH

October 21st, 2006, 12:31 PM

Should gender really MATTER? Love is love, period.

Exactly. The ***s/Lesbians/Bi's cannot help that they may happen to love someone of the same sex. I know several myself and its not like they all woke up one morning and said, "Hey! I think I'm gonna go love someone of the same sex today!"

biochemitra

October 21st, 2006, 12:39 PM

Cyndi

October 21st, 2006, 12:46 PM

I think what it boils down to is nobody likes anybody that's different.

I mean, to go a little off topic, look at the ABA thing for kids with really severe autism. Rather than let the child act naturally and just teach them coping mechanisms for dealing with stress, they basically turn the poor kid into a trained monkey so they look and act normal. These poor children are forced to act against their nature, against the way their brain is wired, to please the "normal" public. The punishments they get for not behaving can be severe and border on abuse. Something as cruel as not letting a child eat until he says he's hungry. What if the child is nonverbal? Why force speech on someone?

Screw that, if someone tried to force me into behaving differently than I do now, I would slap them until they left. I don't care what people think if I stim or don't look people in the eye because it's what nature intended for ME.

It's all about making everybody fit in one stupid mold. Homosexuals are just another target for this stupidity. I hate it.

Dr. Strangelove

October 21st, 2006, 01:03 PM

Cyndi sums up my opinion perfectly. Love is love, period. And no one has any right to deny anyone that.

Sexual preference is in no way a choice of the individual.

It seems we're always looking to harass a group, aren't we? Who will we be harassing in a hundred years?

I wager 15 bucks on hair color, and 5 on whether you've got an innie or an outie.
We've already done the former..or atleast the Germans have. You needed a brown shirt, black boots, blonde hair and blue eyes to effectively 'be all you can be' in the Nazi Party.

But yeah...why the hate? Whatever happened to "Seperation of Church and State"? I like that part of the constitution...alot..

Burkion

October 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM

Here's the thing people...

Espcially you Bush...

It's Unconstitutional to deny people basic rights of freedom and such.

Doesn't matter what God says. He has no say so in the life of man, outside who lives and who dies.

Why? He MADE us like that.

And this Government isn't ruled by God.

It's ruled by an idiot who thinks he's doing God's work.

Gorjirus

October 21st, 2006, 04:11 PM

I think some threads that were left to die should remain dead.

But thats just me. :p

Dr. Strangelove

October 21st, 2006, 06:47 PM

This is democracy! Not a theocracy! Or atleast, its *suposed* to be a Democracy(Technically it's suposed to be a Republic, but they're more/less the same). We got *two* laws from the Ten Commandments...and really now, couldn't people just gather round and say "You don't take my ****, and I won't slaughter your people"?.

yargh

October 21st, 2006, 11:54 PM

To adapt a quote from Calvin and Hobbes...

It's a free country! We've got our rights!

And *** marriage goes in this category...people have the right to do whatever they want...and as people have stated, there is a separattion between and state...which includes this.

People can do what they want, which includes getting married to the same sex.
The Constitution protects these basic rights of people: right to live, right to have fair treatement...and that includes the right to marry whomever one wants.

SO GET OVER IT PEOPLE.