Starship Troopers

[Desu-Goji]

I'm sure most of you have seen this classic movie, its really great and fun, even the bug designs are cool.

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>Oh man, how I hated this movie...

I can only watch it if I'm up for a spoof of wartime propaganda flicks, and I'm very seldom inclined to do so.

[Kaiju_Sensai]

<font color='#008080'>Starship Troopers rocks. Its the film that introduced the world to Denise Richards. Thats a great achievement in and of itself.

[Gothmog]

<font color='#FF0000'>I`ll only watch this movie if I feel like watching violence and a really un-serious plot. Really funny though, if you`re in the right mood.

[memory creature]

Isn't that the one made in the great year of 1997?

1997, the year I was born. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Morgoth]

There's a straight to cable sequel coming out in a few months, for those interested.

For my part, I enjoyed the film (hell, it had better effects than the recent Locofilm projects and the stilted acting gives it somewhat of a retro 1950's sci-fi feel to it). I am highly impressed that while the film strayed quite a lot from the book, it did keep the spirit of Heinlein's book, which was about social responsibility and the value-less-ness of democracy without obligation to society (which is the chief reason why every democracy fails, eventually the mob figures out that you don't have to vote for what's right, you can vote for what is in your own selfish interests). I was impressed that there would be a film made that actually had a rather pro-fascist sentiment to it.

[memory creature]

And it had cursing in it! &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cursing.gif

[kent]

The only good that came out of this movie was that it was somewhat of a homage to the 1950s giant bug flicks. Other than that, the movie sucked royally!

[Kappa the water imp]

It's realy funny. It's ok , I would'nt watch it again but it was a laugh.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Man oh man, I loathed this movie. The special effects and monster scenes were awsome, but the story.....yuck! More than just a pro-facism movie, this movie was a pro-Nazism film. Everything from the idea of humans being a &quot;master race&quot; that must dominate all of existance to the style of clothing screams &quot;Nazis&quot;. And the worst part is that the movie seems to to actually promote the humans' &quot;we are the master race&quot; ideal!

Not only that, but I am told (I haven't read the book yet) that in the book, the humans are actually suppose the be the bad guys, despite the fact that the story is told from the point of view of a human. The movie greatly obscured that fact.

[Morgoth]

No, humanity most certainly isn't the bad guy in the book. Heinlein just had the good sense to observe that for any species to survive, it must put its own interests ahead of the concerns of other races, such as the Skinnies and bugs in his novel. There is a very militaristic point of view in his book, one that states quite simply that strength of force and strength of honour are the two things that allow mankind to prosper, and that the concept of freedom without responsibility is one that is the very antithesis to these ideals. While the mob debates about the obvious course to take, the opportunity to take that course may already be lost. Men need strong leaders, not mob rule.

[The Great MM]

There doing Star Ship Troopers 2...SWEET! I hope we get another type of Arachnid. I loved this film...plus that one girl was pretty hot. The Tankers ruled, I already used the Arachnid Species for a plot in my GMW and their stats are in my Archives. This movie ruled, I love the effects were awesome, and how can you hate this film!?

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ] Heinlein just had the good sense to observe that for any species to survive, it must put its own interests ahead of the concerns of other races

And, apparently, humanity's intrests include ruling the Universe and crushing all who stand in our way of that goal. I can see why Lord Conquerer loathes us http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] (Monster Master @ Mar. 30 2004,19:28)]I love the effects were awesome, and how can you hate this film!?
Good special effects do not neccisarily make a good movie. If you paid attention to my post, I hated this film for it's Nazi-esque ideals (the idea that humans are some sort of &quot;master race&quot; that must dominate the galaxy). Some of the military people (the scientists especially) even dress like Nazis for crying out loud!

The film even seems to promote racism if you are paying attention. The Arachnids are considered &quot;inferior&quot; by the humans because they don't think and behave the way we do, and, overall, just aren't like us. Anybody who challenged this point of view was laughed at and ridiculed. The worst part is that the movie seemed to promote this type of behavior. It's just sick. If we're going to start promoting such bigoted behavior in movies, we might as well just call Hitler a hero and visionary. Sheesh http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nonono2.gif

[Cole Deschain]

Quote[/b] (Monster Master @ Mar. 30 2004,19:28)]This movie ruled, I love the effects were awesome, and how can you hate this film!?
<font color='#0000FF'>In addition to Zigra's points, if I may...

The acting was atrocious (unless, once again, you're looking for a send-up of propaganda movies)
The script was contrived.
The Bugs went from taking almost an entire clip of ammo to going down to short bursts (and don't tell me they were always aiming for the &quot;nerve stem&quot; or whatever the hell it was. The Bugs were getting mowed.)
The humans' tactics began as pure idiocy, and I seriously doubt a society that militaristic wouldnt have softened up Klendathu with massive airstrikes before deploying the infantry.
You gotta love how the bugs kill everybody they get ahold of... except for Denise Richards.

[Archaic_Avenger]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ Mar. 30 2004,19:32)]Quote[/b] ] Heinlein just had the good sense to observe that for any species to survive, it must put its own interests ahead of the concerns of other races

And, apparently, humanity's intrests include ruling the Universe and crushing all who stand in our way of that goal. I can see why Lord Conquerer loathes us http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif
George Bush

Rodan2000

[The Great MM]

Dude, you guys have to remember this movie takes place in the future...dun dun duh. Also, well, if you had all these massim weapons, huge guns and robo suits like in the show...I think you yourself would consider your self supior to big bugs. I liked the story, we finally got a regular movie where human are actually at WAR with a monster species. And for one thing...how the hell can you be a racist against bugs? Cause if killing them...then I'm a racist against ants, spiders, flys, mosquitoes, and other insects. Also remember it was like Ant hive vs Ant hive, just replace one hive with humans and the other with Arachnids. Remember, besides humans, Ants are the only other species on earth that go to war. I liked how they acted, no funny &quot;yea, stupid bugs&quot; or &quot;Take that bugs&quot; because it wasn't just humans mopping up, it actually showed what the Bugs did in return and in return from the humans. The Arachnids wern't just another form of &quot;animal&quot; or &quot;bug&quot; they were the rulers of their world that showed intelligence (taking the girl and guy to the Brain, sending the meteor to that city, etc). For the acting I saw worse (Yonggary 99, Zarkorr, Kraa, Some of the Goji films, GODZILLA 2000). And whats wrong with taking so many shots, we see the same thing with non regenerative kaiju and missiles (Varan, Gappa, Ogra, etc). Also, if you watched in the one scene after where Rico gets a leg through his leg, they show lots of wounded. Anything could have been there after the scene ended (Rico killing the ones after him, a group of soldiers help him, etc) anything.

[Solar_Behemoth]

<font color='#FF7F00'>The only thing I liked about this film was the gore, but it kinda got disgusting after awhile because every 5 seconds someone gets brutally murdered.

I also liked the part when that soldier threw a grenade in that giant beetles mouth and it blew up.

I predict that Starship Troopers 2 will fail at the box office.
http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]Dude, you guys have to remember this movie takes place in the future...dun dun duh

And, that has something to do with Cole and my comments.....how?



Quote[/b] ]I think you yourself would consider your self supior to big bugs

No, not really. I wouldn't even trust myself to be capable of using heavy artillery like that.

Quote[/b] ]And for one thing...how the hell can you be a racist against bugs?

Well, first of all, there's a huge difference between the Arachnids and those bugs you step on: they're sentient (something the humans, in their arrogance, refused to believe, even after the Bugs gave them a pretty good thrashing).

Second, you have to look at things on a symbolic level. In other words, learn to read between the lines for once.The movie seemed to promote the concept of one hating another simply because they are different somehow. It promotes racism by stating that if somebody is different from you somehow, that makes them &quot;inferior&quot;. It promotes racism by giving us the concept of a &quot;master race&quot; that should dominate all others (having some of the officers even dress like Nazis only adds to it). Understand?

As for Rodan2000's comments, I do have something to say to that, but I won't because it could start a political discussion.

[Zigra]

Quote[/b] (henry_venetta @ Mar. 30 2004,20:41)]I predict that Starship Troopers 2 will fail at the box office.
http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
<font color='#0000FF'>You mean in the ratings. ST2 is being released straight to T.V.

[The Great MM]

Having to do with the future involves that because...we have no idea how that will be.

We do not know who started the war, this could have been humans wanting the planet which is even a DUH for now a days if we find a planet similar to earth that is ruled by bugs, see, its a little thing called WAR. Natzis, hmm, never saw how they dressed, but remember, again, its the future, we have no idea how they will dress and it might be a costume in their day and age for high ranking military officers to dress like that.

Yes, but if you DID know how to pilot a missile equiped jet...your telling me you would not consider your self superior to a bug? Damn, I knew I would.

And would you mind telling me how you came to the idea of &quot;hating one thing cause their different&quot; someone most have missed the scene where a giant asteroid crashed into a major city. Thats when the war started and the people said &quot;thats it, these bugs are going down&quot;. And yes, I happen to be a person that believes that humans are the dominate species on Earth or in our solar system...for now.

[Gigan III]

<font color='#FF0000'>I never relised that it promoted Nazi beliefs. I just wached it to see the bugs kill humans. I think the bugs are awesome. And the military did have stupid tactics. I mean, if you can make a nuke the size of a football, why don't they just fry them all? And no tanks, jeeps, or armored vehicles? The generals must have smoking some funky stuff. No wonder they lost their space fleet to the plasma shooting bugs. General: *&quot;Hey man, what the heck was that?&quot; Other general: &quot;I dono...where am I? Who are you?&quot; First general: &quot;Look at the stars, there's like, millions of them.&quot; Second general: &quot;This stuff isn't good for us man. I'm seeing balls of fire destroying our ships.&quot; First general: &quot;We have ships?&quot;

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>And my points? Chopped liver? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Morgoth]

I think Zigra missed one little point, one that was stressed in both the book and somewhat in the movie. Yes, the arachnids are an intelligent form of life, but they are not one that mankind can co-exist with. There is no way to actually communicate with them, no real manner of dealing with them outside of destruction. That is a simple reality of nature, different species aren't able to communicate with one another. When was the last time you had a meaningful philisophical discussion with a marmot. Or as the old joke goes, if Aquaman's powers were real, they'd be about the most useless ones ever conceived:

Aquaman, swimming up to a tuna.

Tuna: Hi Aquaman!

Aquaman: Hey, have you seen any trouble around here?

Tuna: Hi Aquaman!

Getting back to the arachnids, these are alien lifeforms, it is rather naive to think that humanity can afford to adopt a 'live and let live' attitude, and that attitude would most certainly see mankind annihilated. Recall, the bugs are also expansionistic, and if they are not on the defending foot, then it might very easily be mankind that is put on the defensive. Sorry, but whatever the moral grounds, I'm a human being so I'll be siding with the preservation of my own kind rather than some foolish notion of co-existing with the arachnid (until the damn things start breeding in your backyard and devouring your family). If we were talking about the infamous xenomorphs of Alien fame, I don't think the 'extermination in the name of human survival' factor would even be a question. I don't see the arachnids as any different.

Another good sci-fi series to view is the Man-Kzin Wars, which is probably better known from its plagarised offspring WingCommander. The Kzinti are huge, ruthless and ferocious humanoid felines that look upon all other forms of life as either prey or slaves, with not alot of distinction between the two. The only way to deal with them is to overwhelm them with military force, to crush them in battle, humiliate and subjugate them so that they are kept in an inferior position. Because at the first sign of weakness (such as, say, a peace delegation heading off to talk to the Kzinti Patriarch), like any predator, the Kzinti's claws come out and the war drums start pounding once more.

Eventually, if we don't destroy ourselves first, men will reach the stars and what we find there is anybody's guess. And it may well be that men will discover planets and forms of life with which there is no possibility of co-existence. I only hope there is sufficient wisdom to recognise and accept such facts.

[Kaiju_Sensai]

<font color='#008080'>The only reason why the film was all fascist was because thats the way it was in the book. Its a freakin movie for crying out loud. Wouldn't you be pissed if you had an underlying message in your book &amp; somebody changed that for the movie version. If you want to blame anybody for the Fascist type values of the story blame Heinlen. He's the one who wrote it in the first place. The film's not promoting anything. I loved this movie, one of the greatest of all time. I thought the acting was great. One of the few modern science fiction movies that are actually good. Sure blows Jurassic Park all to hell!!

[Cole Deschain]

Quote[/b] (Radioactive_Lizard_1983 @ Mar. 31 2004,01:02)]I thought the acting was great.
<font color='#0000FF'>Suit yourself. As an actor myself, I found it wooden and one-dimensional in the extreme.

Quote[/b] ]Sure blows Jurassic Park all to hell!

Matter of opinion. I'm really not too keen on either of them.

[Draco]

Would just like to clear up a few things here.

First, the bugs did not start the war, the humans did. &nbsp;It is implied in the film that the humans and bugs knew of each other and were uneasily coexisting (their was a quarantine of all bug planets) until the time that the human settlers broke the quarantine and moved onto the planet. &nbsp;This was the action that provoked the bugs to hit the earth with the asteroid.

Second, the movie does not promote humans as somehow superior to the bugs, in fact quite the opposite. &nbsp;For instance, when the girl trys to say that humans are better because of the creation of art and poetry, the teacher laughs at her and tells her she is mistaken because the bugs are in all ways biologically superior to humans. &nbsp;Many of those that do hold this view end up being destroyed for it, for example the fleet is demolished because they believe the tanker bugs will only fire randomly.

As for the movie itself, I find it highly entertaining on a simple everything must explode level. &nbsp;Still, I wish they would explain how the fleets are able to move so quickly over such great distances. &nbsp;And even more importantly, how the bugs were able to fire a meteor from halfway across the galaxy and hit earth without the damn thing being detected well in advance. &nbsp;First, the distance involved would mean the thing had to be shot out of orbit hundreds of years ago (it would be moving sub light) and the thought that the bugs could do the calculations to hit a spec of dust like the earth without the meteor hitting something else or being caught in a gravity field of some type is just mind boggling. &nbsp;Also, we usually have predictions of how close meteors will come to us years before they actually get here even now, how did they miss this one with even more advanced technology?

[Zigra]

Quote[/b] (Monster Master @ Mar. 30 2004,21:12)]Yes, but if you DID know how to pilot a missile equiped jet...your telling me you would not consider your self superior to a bug? Damn, I knew I would.
<font color='#0000FF'>No, I wouldn't. I've seen enough monster movies to know that humanity's weapons, no matter how devastating, are always useless. The soldiers will get eaten or fried anyway. Remember &quot;Aliens&quot;?

And, I think Draco pretty much stated what else I was going to say, but I'll just sort of &quot;confirm&quot; it. The Bugs did not start the war. The humans did by invading their territory. I don't know how it was in the book, but in the movie at least, a &quot;live and let live&quot; policy would have certainly been possible if we just stayed the hell out of that region of space. What business do we have going there anyway?

Then, getting to Clint's comments about the xenomorphs, once again, we have an example where it is the humans who are the bad guys. It was always the humans, or things created and programed by them (like Ash in the first movie) who sought to capture and exploit the xenomorphs for their own selfish militaristic purposes. The xenomorphs had to be exterminated, not because of what they are, but because of what we are.

[SuperXAsh]

Quote[/b] (Morgoth @ Mar. 30 2004,22:25)]Getting back to the arachnids, these are alien lifeforms, it is rather naive to think that humanity can afford to adopt a 'live and let live' attitude, and that attitude would most certainly see mankind annihilated. Recall, the bugs are also expansionistic, and if they are not on the defending foot, then it might very easily be mankind that is put on the defensive. Sorry, but whatever the moral grounds, I'm a human being so I'll be siding with the preservation of my own kind rather than some foolish notion of co-existing with the arachnid (until the damn things start breeding in your backyard and devouring your family). If we were talking about the infamous xenomorphs of Alien fame, I don't think the 'extermination in the name of human survival' factor would even be a question. I don't see the arachnids as any different.

Another good sci-fi series to view is the Man-Kzin Wars, which is probably better known from its plagarised offspring WingCommander. The Kzinti are huge, ruthless and ferocious humanoid felines that look upon all other forms of life as either prey or slaves, with not alot of distinction between the two. The only way to deal with them is to overwhelm them with military force, to crush them in battle, humiliate and subjugate them so that they are kept in an inferior position. Because at the first sign of weakness (such as, say, a peace delegation heading off to talk to the Kzinti Patriarch), like any predator, the Kzinti's claws come out and the war drums start pounding once more.
*Warning, this post may veer off subject for a while*
Strange parallels to today.

*will ignore that stupid comment by Rodan2k*

Yes Morgoth, I fear for our future too if the pansies get their ways. Imagine how badly things will go if we ever run into an expansionistic alien race like the Arachnids and the Kzinti... and try of all things to co-exsist with them, or reach peace with creatures who have no concept of it.

Like to see how such people would react to this kind of situation, against an uncaring species of warlike creatures who think peace is another metaphor for WHEN ENEMY IS DEAD.

Hell there are people today in the current situations who think we can somehow reach a peace with people who see all are not like them and believe in what they believe as inferior and in need of annihilation. So there's probably no hope for our future generations.

I'm no warmonger, but it's a sad fact that some people just don't seem to get.

Cause there's gonna have to be time when some of those people realize that not everything can be solved through debating and peaceful talking. Specially when while you're in &quot;peace talks&quot;, this same enemy's coming into your backyard and attacking you. I wish things never had to resort to war, but if you're dealing with an enemy who has no plans for such things... the #### hits the fan quickly.

There's just a time when the talk ends and the fists must fly instead. Cause there are some people in the world who just don't understand anything beyond violence and respond with it. And if you think that by not retaliating, you're showing a more &quot;moral image&quot; to the rest of the world... then you're just inviting more attacks. That &quot;moral image&quot; will soon be seen as a &quot;weak and afraid image&quot; instead.

But ummm... I'm getting off subject here. Yes, Starship Troopers isn't a life-changing movie with a strong moral at the end that'll make you want to change your outlook on your life. No, It's a movie about a bloody war in the distant future with an enemy who can be just as vicious, if not more, than the human being. An enemy who also learns, and in some cases evolves. Full of surprises and sudden, spontaneous acts of intelligence. The funny thing is, in the movie... we're slow to accept this fact in the beginning. We can't concieve that these creatures may be smarter than we thought them to be.

The decent 3-D animated show (Roughnecks) displayed these types of images throughout it's series. It's a war, people die, people sacrifice themselves, and the enemy will not falter and will not give up territory without an ungodly amount of blood spilled. The enemy will also learn and adapt.

A movie that also shows that nothing lasts forever. In this world, The Democratic United States of America went the way of the Dinosaur and Rome. It fell, or was in a state of chaos and those who were strong enough built it back up... and those strong enough just happened to be military types. So a more militaristic country was made... one that is more fascist in it's undertaking.

I'm no fan of Nazism and Facism. The idea that there's a Master Race, and all who are not born of that said race are not worth two ####s. Specially where there's secret police and people monitoring your every move to make sure your'e not thinking of anything but THE FATHERLAND. Just not a healthy/sane practice at all.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

[Goji Son]

I really didn't like the movie all that much. &nbsp;Acting sucked, plot sucked, nothing much happens. &nbsp;Just one big long battle sequence with plenty of gore. &nbsp;Usually I can tolerate it, I mean come on I watch Bad Taste for Christ's sake but the movie seemed to take itself so seriously when it had the feel of a B Movie campfest. &nbsp;Meh, that's my opinion, could really give a crap about the facist overtones in the book because the movie doesn't really focuses more on the gore then the themes of the original book.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] ]The Bugs did not start the war. The humans did by invading their territory. I don't know how it was in the book, but in the movie at least, a &quot;live and let live&quot; policy would have certainly been possible if we just stayed the hell out of that region of space. What business do we have going there anyway?

That human settlement was not an official one however. &nbsp;It was settled my extremists who violated the government imposed quarrantine on arachnid space. &nbsp;The bugs response was to massacre everybody there and then drop a rather large rock on a populated city simply because it was inhabited by the same species. &nbsp;That's rather like nuking Mexico City because there are illegal immigrants coming over the US border.

[Morgoth]

Well Sandworm, you can't really expect a bug to diferentiate between a sanctioned and an unsanctioned incident - that is one of the reasons that co-existing with them is such a bad idea - because they are alien, vastly alien, they are completely unpredictable. The greatest danger a person ever faces is always the unknown.

[Draco]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ Mar. 31 2004,16:37)][quote=Monster Master,Mar. 30 2004,21:12]Then, getting to Clint's comments about the xenomorphs, once again, we have an example where it is the humans who are the bad guys. It was always the humans, or things created and programed by them (like Ash in the first movie) who sought to capture and exploit the xenomorphs for their own selfish militaristic purposes. The xenomorphs had to be exterminated, not because of what they are, but because of what we are.
Actually, the aliens from alien would have had to be exterminated no matter what. &nbsp;Should even one alien have gotten to earth, it could have potentially caused the extenction of mankind. &nbsp;The where and why of the aliens discovery was unimportant, a research or salvage vessle could have just as easily stumbled across the sos beacon from the alien ship. &nbsp;Whatever the circumstances the aliens would have still had to be exterminated less they destroy us.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Morgoth @ April 01 2004,03:43)]Well Sandworm, you can't really expect a bug to diferentiate between a sanctioned and an unsanctioned incident - that is one of the reasons that co-existing with them is such a bad idea - because they are alien, vastly alien, they are completely unpredictable. The greatest danger a person ever faces is always the unknown.
Yes but according to some people here it should be possible and it should be interesting seeing them try to explain that one away http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As for some of the other arguments they present-

&quot;Humans see themselves as superior&quot;

That would be true, at least at the start of the war. &nbsp;The bugs while having some fairly strange abilities are a fairly primitive civilization. &nbsp;They do have a form of space travel but it is rather hit or miss considering all it carries is bug spore. &nbsp;They have no form of technology, and every form of bug previously seen by the terrans is rather stupid (Don't believe me see if you can't find the 'know your foe' jpg that got released around the time of the movie, the only bug with an IQ over 30 is the Brain). &nbsp;The simply fact of hte matter is that humans ARE superior to the bugs when not commanded and equipped by idiots. &nbsp;Fortunately for the bugs when the Klendathu invasion was launched it was done so by a complete and total imbecil. &nbsp;No air support seen, no orbital fire support, no artillery (and against an infantry based opponent at that), no armor, no practical heavy weapons (the nuke launchers are nice and all but they're useless at anything but long ranged combat where's there's abundant cover to duck behind). &nbsp;Hell the terran ships didn't even SHOOT BACK when the plasma fire started coming in (nevermind the stuff was slow and so easily visible they should have been able to dodge it no problem except that they packed all their ships together into a nice tight formation).


Zigra:
Quote[/b] ]No, I wouldn't. I've seen enough monster movies to know that humanity's weapons, no matter how devastating, are always useless. The soldiers will get eaten or fried anyway. Remember &quot;Aliens&quot;?

Yes I remember aliens. &nbsp;I remember that in Aliens the USCMC gave MUCH better than they got and were only knocked around so badly because they had an officer in charge with no-experience and lost most of their gear and ammo. &nbsp;If someone was in charge who didn't freeze up immediately and who didn't insist that his troops wander deeper and deeper into the alien's hive with NO AMMO it would have been a much different story. &nbsp;Human weapons certainly proved more than adequate to frag the aliens.

Quote[/b] ]Then, getting to Clint's comments about the xenomorphs, once again, we have an example where it is the humans who are the bad guys. It was always the humans, or things created and programed by them (like Ash in the first movie) who sought to capture and exploit the xenomorphs for their own selfish militaristic purposes. The xenomorphs had to be exterminated, not because of what they are, but because of what we are.

Wrong. &nbsp;The xenomorphs are a highly aggressive and extremely expansionistic species that spreads like a plague, that's what made nabbing them so appealing to the company men. &nbsp;They still needed to be exterminated as a hazard.

Quote[/b] ]The movie seemed to promote the concept of one hating another simply because they are different somehow.

Excuse me? &nbsp;The vast majority of the people are never represented as hating the arachnids because they're different, they hate the arachnids because they obliterated a heavily populated city. &nbsp;That's what sent the humans to war against the arachnids in the first place (no mention of war after the slaughter of the extremists who violated the quarrantine). &nbsp;The official government policy at the time WAS live and let live.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>First of all, I think I should explain what I mean when I speak of &quot;live and let live&quot;. It doesn't mean &quot;let's talk and be friends&quot;, it means &quot;leave me alone and I'll leave you alone&quot;. The funny thing is, in the movie at least, this policy seemed to be working.....until humans decided to break their own quarrantine.

So, if human beings are stupid enough to break a quarrantine even in spite of the risk of starting an all-out conflict, doesn't that make us the unpredictable and possibly even dangerous species? Think about it.

Then, even if there were a way to communicate and co-exist with the Arachids, I don't the humans in that movie would have cared. All the humans cared about was vengance for something that humans started in the first place (even if it was only bands of rouges).

Quote[/b] ]*If someone was in charge who didn't freeze up immediately and who didn't insist that his troops wander deeper and deeper into the alien's hive with NO AMMO it would have been a much different story. *Human weapons certainly proved more than adequate to frag the aliens.

No, probably not. The soldiers were so grossly outnumbered that I doubt their heavy firepower would have helped them in the end (remember how the second confrontation turned out, despite the soldiers getting to use their artillery at full power?). Not only that, but a confrontation in the hive would have also been suicide because it would have most definately been a close range confrontation. Remember what happens when a xenomorph explodes and it's blood sprays all over the place? Then there's the fact that damaging the reactor would have blown the whole place sky-high (which is why the soldiers were told to go in with no ammo).

Anyway, that's not really the point I was making to MM. My point was, that in monster films, it doesn't matter how big and bad humanity's weaponry is. The monster(s) always slaughters the soldiers anyway http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Wrong. *The xenomorphs are a highly aggressive and extremely expansionistic species that spreads like a plague, that's what made nabbing them so appealing to the company men. *They still needed to be exterminated as a hazard.

You're right, but once again you fail to see my point. Yes, the xenomorphs are a plague, but it was almost always humans who wanted to control and unleash that plague for their own power-mongering purposes. The havoc caused by the xenomorphs was merely a dreadful consequence of the evil actions of human beings.

[The Great MM]

Uhh Zigra, I wasn't talking about monsters. When I asked &quot;If you were piloting a super missile equiped jet that you were an expert at piloting, you would not feel superior to a bug, as in an ant&quot; remember, giant monsters are not in Star Ship Troopers, and I must admit if I was flying over a swarm of Arachnids with a jet with missiles, nukes, and napalm, I WOULD FEEL WAY SUPERIOR.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>My point was that I've seen monster movies where armies are eradicated by the monsters regardless of how big and bad their weapons are, that I would at least question the true effectivness of such weaponry against monsterous opponents if I were ever in the same situation. I wouldn't get too cocky and overconfident just because I had a big gun at my side.

[The Great MM]

... not even against a normal sized ant...

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Well, maybe then;)

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 01 2004,22:11)]
Quote[/b] ]First of all, I think I should explain what I mean when I speak of &quot;live and let live&quot;. It doesn't mean &quot;let's talk and be friends&quot;, it means &quot;leave me alone and I'll leave you alone&quot;. The funny thing is, in the movie at least, this policy seemed to be working.....until humans decided to break their own quarrantine.

So, if human beings are stupid enough to break a quarrantine even in spite of the risk of starting an all-out conflict, doesn't that make us the unpredictable and possibly even dangerous species? Think about it.

Well first of all the humans in question were not at all connected with the Earth government. &nbsp;They were extremists who violated the quarrantine illegally. &nbsp;And then they responded by dropping an asteroid on a different group of humans who had nothing in common with the humans who broke the quarratine aside from being the same species. &nbsp;As I said this is roughly comparable to the US slaughtering every illegal immigrant and then nuking their countries of origin. &nbsp;And given the bug's tendencies its' doubtful that quarrantine would have lasted forever.

If you prefer another analogy this situation is roughly like Germany invading france and the french declaring war on Japan in response.

Quote[/b] ]Then, even if there were a way to communicate and co-exist with the Arachids, I don't the humans in that movie would have cared. All the humans cared about was vengance for something that humans started in the first place (even if it was only bands of rouges).

Incorrect. &nbsp;It does not excuse declaring war on a completely unrelated government for someone else's actions. &nbsp;Furthermore the arachnids didn't even attempt any sort of communication, they responded with a WMD attack to what was basically illegal immigrants, it's a response completely out of proportion to the violation and the fact they were willing to go that far that fast indicates they are a highly aggressive and dangerous race who are likely only limited in their offensives against humanity by the fact they don't have very practical space travel.

Quote[/b] ]No, probably not. The soldiers were so grossly outnumbered that I doubt their heavy firepower would have helped them in the end (remember how the second confrontation turned out, despite the soldiers getting to use their artillery at full power?).

Remember that that second confrontation took place after most of the marine's ammo had been destroyed and their numbers substantially reduced.

Quote[/b] ]Not only that, but a confrontation in the hive would have also been suicide because it would have most definately been a close range confrontation. Remember what happens when a xenomorph explodes and it's blood sprays all over the place? Then there's the fact that damaging the reactor would have blown the whole place sky-high (which is why the soldiers were told to go in with no ammo).


Except that Gorman seemingly forgot the idea of heading back to the APC and fitting out his troops with non-AP ammo. &nbsp;Without the HEAP rounds they were using the acide problem would have been substantially reduced as well as the problem of the reactor. &nbsp;However instead he sent them into a situation where they were almost garaunteed to run into hostile forces with no weaponry aside from a few sidearms and the incinerators. &nbsp;The SNAFU in the hive was Gorman's doing plain and simple.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, that's not really the point I was making to MM. My point was, that in monster films, it doesn't matter how big and bad humanity's weaponry is. The monster(s) always slaughters the soldiers anyway http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Except in aliens the marines were slaughtering the aliens wholesale even with their substantially reduced resources. &nbsp;In this particular monster film the aliens were given almost every advantage available (numbers, terrain knowledge, etc.) and they were still losing far more aliens than the marines were losing people (which is a bad thing when the aliens need a host to replace every loss)

Quote[/b] ]You're right, but once again you fail to see my point. Yes, the xenomorphs are a plague, but it was almost always humans who wanted to control and unleash that plague for their own power-mongering purposes. The havoc caused by the xenomorphs was merely a dreadful consequence of the evil actions of human beings.

You do realize that not every encounter with the Xenos is a result of human greed right? &nbsp;The only thing that keeps them from spreading even quicker than they already do is the fact they have no space travel. &nbsp;Even then they still spread plenty through means that are either unknown or the Predator hunting rituals.

[kent]

Quote[/b] ]Sure blows Jurassic Park all to hell!!

I know it's one's opinion but I now have to state my own... &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Yeah JP made millions, if not billions across the globe and ST made how much? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif
JP actually had a good plot and a great story to go with it. ST was nothing more than a survive/shoot 'em before they kill us movie. The story of ST was also HORRENDOUS!! I can't stress that word enough!

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]Well first of all the humans in question were not at all connected with the Earth government. *They were extremists who violated the quarrantine illegally. *And then they responded by dropping an asteroid on a different group of humans who had nothing in common with the humans who broke the quarratine aside from being the same species. *As I said this is roughly comparable to the US slaughtering every illegal immigrant and then nuking their countries of origin. *And given the bug's tendencies its' doubtful that quarrantine would have lasted forever.

There are a couple of problems with that. First, like Clint pointed out, the bugs probably can't distinguish &quot;extremist&quot; humans from &quot;normal&quot; humans. Second, since very little blame seemed to fall on these extremists for their part in provoking this war, it would seem like the goverment of Earth really didn't care. Third, whatever the tendancies of the Arachids are, that still doesn't change the fact that it was humans that broke the quarrantine first. It doesn't matter whether it was rogues or not, they were still human.

Finally, here's some food for thought (and, please read and consider this very carefully). If it is so much in the Arachnid's tendancies to expand and take over territory (as you claim), then why haven't they? *Waits for it to sink in* I mean, they are obviously capable of sending their meteors and spores to our region of space in a very short time (as proven by the meteor attack on Earth). So, if they are capable of sending their spores into our region of space so quickly and efficently, why had they not done so already? Could it be that they had no intrest in doing so until we invaded their territory?

Or, here's something else to consider. How do we even know that the meteor strike on Earth was actually an attack? We know that the bugs colonize other worlds by sending spores through space. Could that be all the incident on Earth was? After all, the Arachnids have no technology to track us, so how the heck are they even suppose to know what and where the human homeworld is?

Quote[/b] ]Incorrect. *It does not excuse declaring war on a completely unrelated government for someone else's actions. *Furthermore the arachnids didn't even attempt any sort of communication, they responded with a WMD attack to what was basically illegal immigrants, it's a response completely out of proportion to the violation and the fact they were willing to go that far that fast indicates they are a highly aggressive and dangerous race who are likely only limited in their offensives against humanity by the fact they don't have very practical space travel.

Read what I said again. It was more of a &quot;what if&quot; statement, than a &quot;this is how it is&quot; statement. Even if the Arachnids had a means to communicate and an intrest in doing so, the humans obviously wouldn't have cared. Their thirst for revenge was too deep.

Your argument also falls apart when you consider that the humans didn't even bother trying to communicate with the bugs either. And they had the means to do it, too (remember that psychic who was able to read the brain bug's mind?). Rather, than, say, letting the bugs know that those were merely extremists who invaded their territory, they decided to take the brain bug prisoner and perform some rather ghastly experiments on it (I don't care how evil you think the Arachnids are, perfroming a brutal experiment like that on a lifeform, especially a sentient one, while it's still conscious is......horrid).

Quote[/b] ]You do realize that not every encounter with the Xenos is a result of human greed right?

Yup. But, the encounters that weren't the result of human greed were at least the result of human stupidity (as I recall, the crew members of the Nostromo continued to explore that alien vessle even after they learned that it's signal was a &quot;stay away&quot; signal). Even in situations where encounters with the xenomorphs wasn't the result of human greed, human greed or stupidity always perpetuated the situation.

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 02 2004,00:11)]If you prefer another analogy this situation is roughly like Germany invading france and the french declaring war on Japan in response.
So it would be like World War I.

Also, don't forget that the Bugs had a sort of communal approach to the way they thought. They might think it perfectly rational to hold all human accountable for the actions of a few- after all, they work as a very solidly unified species- perhaps they &quot;assumed&quot; humans work the same way.

[SuperXAsh]

Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 02 2004,00:11)]Quote[/b] ]You're right, but once again you fail to see my point. Yes, the xenomorphs are a plague, but it was almost always humans who wanted to control and unleash that plague for their own power-mongering purposes. The havoc caused by the xenomorphs was merely a dreadful consequence of the evil actions of human beings.

You do realize that not every encounter with the Xenos is a result of human greed right? *The only thing that keeps them from spreading even quicker than they already do is the fact they have no space travel. *Even then they still spread plenty through means that are either unknown or the Predator hunting rituals.
Yeah, Alien 3's incident wasn't the result of human greed. That Xenomorph got on when the face hugger hitched a ride with Ripley, Hicks, Newt and Bishop. The other two were slaughtered (somehow) and Bishop was horrendously damaged.

A facehugger (the one in the beginning or another?) attached itself to a dog when it landed on the prison installation. Then things went slowly to Hell soon after.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Cole Deschain @ April 02 2004,01:17)]So it would be like World War I.

Also, don't forget that the Bugs had a sort of communal approach to the way they thought. They might think it perfectly rational to hold all human accountable for the actions of a few- after all, they work as a very solidly unified species- perhaps they &quot;assumed&quot; humans work the same way.
Possibly, possibly not, we don't know enough about bug psychology (or rather Brain psychology since every other bug type is as dumb as a box of rocks).

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the problem in WWI an overabundance of secret alliances? &nbsp;If someone's attacking your allies it makes sense to declare war, but in this case we're talking about extremists who basically told the government to piss off and went anyway.

[Kaiju_Sensai]

<font color='#008080'>Jurassic Park had a good plot, don't get me started. Jurassic Park sucks. The novel was awesome. Probobly still the best book I ever read, but the movie is a stupified, low-rent, pathetic attempt to redo something that should have been left alone. Speilberg totally had the chance to recapture the awe &amp; terror of Jaws, but turned it into an expensive gimmick for nothing more than to make loads of money off merchandising. The Jurassic Park movie is to the book as King Kong 1976 is to the original. I think that sci-fi critic James O'Nell put it the best.....

&quot;One of the most popular films of all time, this COULD have been one of the best of its kind too, had Speilberg &amp; company not decided to make a monster movie so easily tied in with toy and Happy Meal sales. The FX are by and large outstanding, but the whole film has an antiseptic untouched-by-human-hands feel to it that will never put it in the same league with monster classics like the original King Kong or even Godzilla.&quot;

I bet that if Jurassic Park was to be made today in our current time, that it would be a big failure. The only and I repeat only reason why anybody, wether they admit it or not, likes the movie was because of the Special Effects. Not one single critic that has ever reviewed it has ever mention anything about the writing, story, or acting. All they ever ever talk about is how great the special effects are.

If you want a real Jurassic Park review go pic up the book Movie Mega-cheese by MST3K writer and star Mike Nelson. Speilberg sucks!!!! Welcome the rise of the great king of sci-fi cinema. All Hail Peter Jackson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 02 2004,01:49)]Possibly, possibly not, we don't know enough about bug psychology (or rather Brain psychology since every other bug type is as dumb as a box of rocks).
'Zactly, but if a species like the Bugs shows any sentience, they aren;t likely to think ion ways that make much sense to the rest of us...

Quote[/b] ]And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the problem in WWI an overabundance of secret alliances? &nbsp;If someone's attacking your allies it makes sense to declare war, but in this case we're talking about extremists who basically told the government to piss off and went anyway.

You more or less have WWI's causes right, except that my point was that to an uniformed outside obsever, the chain of events leading up to World War I make no sense whatsoever.

A few Serbian nationalists kill the Archduke- and what do the Hapsburgs do? Threaten to come down on Serbia like a ton of bricks unless a truly ridiculous ultimatum is agreed to.

The parallels are definitely there.

Same thing here.

[Cole Deschain]

Quote[/b] (Radioactive_Lizard_1983 @ April 02 2004,03:03)]I bet that if Jurassic Park was to be made today in our current time, that it would be a big failure. The only and I repeat only reason why anybody, wether they admit it or not, likes the movie was because of the Special Effects. Not one single critic that has ever reviewed it has ever mention anything about the writing, story, or acting. All they ever ever talk about is how great the special effects are.
<font color='#0000FF'>This is exactly what I think of Starship Troopers (and yes, you're welcome for the effort to keep your post somehow related to the topic).

The plot is inane, but at least I can have fun picking it apart from a historical standpoint.
The acting is worse.
The dialogue is an atrocity.

Morgoth and Sandwormphish have brought up the only things even remotely interesting about Starship Troopers, because otherwise it's a less-intelligent version of Aliens.

[Kaiju_Sensai]

<font color='#008080'>Well all Starship Troopers was meant to be was a summer blockbuster, and thats what it was. Sadly not every movie can be Lord of the Rings. Though with the Lord of the Rings films maybe Hollywood will see that sci-fi and fantasy films can be more than just summer blockbusters, and turn out some really GOOD films in the future. Every blockbuster from Jurassic Park to Armageddon was nothing more than a summer blockbuster. If you were to actually sit back and really pay attention to the films, you'd notice that most (even some of your favorites) are not what they're cracked up to be. Sad to say thats just the way most American cinema really is. Still I enjoyed Starship Troopers immensely.

[Archaic_Avenger]

hey, it was a joke!

Rodan2000

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Cole Deschain @ April 02 2004,11:17)]A few Serbian nationalists kill the Archduke- and what do the Hapsburgs do? Threaten to come down on Serbia like a ton of bricks unless a truly ridiculous ultimatum is agreed to.

The parallels are definitely there.

Same thing here.
There was however no ultimatum. &nbsp;The only warning the humans got was that everyone at Port Joe Smith had been massacred.

However letting the bugs off the hook because the response is alien to us doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if there was a Brain Bug present on whatever planet Port Joe Smith was on, it would have known thanks to the whole brain drain thing that this was essentially a rogue element.

The simple fact of the matter is that there would have been no war if not for the Arachnids sneak attack on Buenos Aires. &nbsp;There was no general call to war after the PJS massacre despite the brutality of it. &nbsp;And why is it that apperantly only humans are held responsible on the 'they're alien so their response though ludicrously out of proportion may not be wrong at all' argument? &nbsp;The bugs are ruled over by a group of sentients in the form of the Brains who would have been neccesary to do something so advanced as launch an attack on Earth from across the galaxy. &nbsp;Yet we're apperantly supposed to forgive the bug' traspasses but they aren't expected to return the same courtesy.. doesn't make much sense in light of the fact they responsed to the immigration of a civilain population with a WMD attack.

[Zigra]

Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 03 2004,21:09)]The simple fact of the matter is that there would have been no war if not for the Arachnids sneak attack on Buenos Aires. *
<font color='#0000FF'>Correction. There would have been no war if those idiotic extremists hadn't violated the quarrantine. The fact that humans even have these extremists among our ranks at all (whereas the bugs don't, due to their collective hive mind), is proof that *we* are the unpredictable and possibly even dangerous species overall. Perhaps that should somewhat answer your question about why we should be held accountable.



Quote[/b] ]it would have known thanks to the whole brain drain thing that this was essentially a rogue element.


How so? Are you assuming that the Brain Bugs gain the knowledge of the people who's brains they suck? There's no proof of that (at least not that I recall from the movie). As far as can be told, the Brains Bugs suck out brains for sustainance. How would it even be possible for them to gain knowledge from liquified brain matter?

Should we forgive the Arachnids for their actions? That's kind of a loaded question. It may not even be a question of forgiving the bugs as much as it is a question of whether the human civilization portrayed in the movie deserved to be attacked like that or not. I don't really know the answer to that, but I'm leaning towards &quot;yes&quot;.

I do think that an arrogant, Nazi-esque society like that in the movie deserves to be brought down low. However, I'm not too sure that dropping a WMD on a city like the bugs did is the right answer. But, then again, it may have been the only answer the bugs had if they really did feel threatened somehow. What other means of interstellar defense do the bugs have other than launching meteors at their opponents? &nbsp;None, as far as the movie showed us. What else would they have done to defend themselves?

Adding more to that point, there is also the likeliness that humans really are as much of a threat as the bugs may have believed. The evidence? While the anger the humans have toward the bugs for the attack is more than understandable, what still amazes me is that hardly any blame fell upon those extremists for their part in provoking the Arachnids, and those few who did place blame on them were brushed aside and ignored. It's as if people thought there was nothing wrong with invading the bug's territory (despite the rules in place), telling you something about their mindset.

I also got the impression that they only reason the humans even bothered to declare the bugs' territory off limits was because they felt the bugs were too dangerous to try and challenge, not because they had any true intentions to &quot;live and let live&quot;. If the Arachnids were weaker and not all that dangerous, there's no doubt in my mind that the humans would have conquered or destroyed them, feeling it their &quot;right&quot; to dominate the galaxy.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 03 2004,22:36)]
Quote[/b] ]Correction. There would have been no war if those idiotic extremists hadn't violated the quarrantine. The fact that humans even have these extremists among our ranks at all (whereas the bugs don't, due to their collective hive mind), is proof that *we* are the unpredictable and possibly even dangerous species overall. Perhaps that should somewhat answer your question about why we should be held accountable.

Bugs do not have a hive mind. &nbsp;The other breeds are simply commanded telepathically by the Brains (if it was a hive mind the individual bugs would not have differing IQs).

And those extremists had nothing at all to do wit hthe rest of humanity and had in fact effectively cut all ties with the humans remaining on Earth. &nbsp;What you seem to be forgetting however is that not only did the bugs slaughter them but then went on to attack an entirely seperate group in a sneak attack. &nbsp;As I've stated many times over before this is roughly analgous with the US massacring every illegal immigrant within its borders and then dropping nukes on their countries of origin. &nbsp;This is a behavior that, were it humans performing it you would from your attitude be quite up in arms over, yet for some reason you seem perfectly willing to excuse the bugs. &nbsp;Furthermore if you remember the opening video the bugs launched a SECOND strike before the human counter-attack struck (only this time PDCs took the offending rock out before it could cause the damage they wanted).

Quote[/b] ]How so? Are you assuming that the Brain Bugs gain the knowledge of the people who's brains they suck? There's no proof of that (at least not that I recall from the movie). As far as can be told, the Brains Bugs suck out brains for sustainance. How would it even be possible for them to gain knowledge from liquified brain matter?

Well..

1.) If it was just eating the brains there would have been no reason to keep Carmen and Zander alive since it takes some minutes for oxygen deprivation to begin causing brain damage.

2.) The bugs would have had to take a LOT more prisoners to feed something that size with only brain sized meals.

3.) The general they find in the outpost said he hid so the bugs wouldn't find out the information he had. &nbsp;That means either the bugs CAN communicate with humans enough to interrogate someone on troop deployments and the like (in which case the 'their too alien to understand us' thing goes out the window) or it can absorb knowledge by devouring their brains.

As for how it gets it, I assume something like Flatworm learning. &nbsp;Or it could be something else completely unrealistic but there are plenty of such questions we could ask (like how the bugs were able to get an asteroid across the galaxy in so short a time with no form of FTL travel)

Quote[/b] ]Should we forgive the Arachnids for their actions? That's kind of a loaded question. It may not even be a question of forgiving the bugs as much as it is a question of whether the human civilization portrayed in the movie deserved to be attacked like that or not. I don't really know the answer to that, but I'm leaning towards &quot;yes&quot;.

Yes because apperantly it's our fault we responded to an unprovoked attack.

Quote[/b] ]I do think that an arrogant, Nazi-esque society like that in the movie deserves to be brought down low.

How are they Nazi-esque again? &nbsp;I don't see any oppression of minorities, I don't see or hear any mention of death camps. &nbsp;The only thing you have backing your claim up is the fact the humans consider the bugs inferior life forms, which considering that by that point they'd never captured a Brain Bug for study, or in fact may not have even known of their existance (since the inferior bugs thing was stated by ONE individual who was on the air just after the Klendathu attack.. and while we're on the subject that show had an opposing viewpoint on it as well, not very nazi-esque) meaning the only bugs studied were the other varieties, the smartest of which has an IQ of 30, and the fact that doogie howzer was in a uniform reminiscent of the Nazis (which means nothing since if the nazi's were anything it was snappy dressers and I seriously doubt they'd make someone wear a black leather greatcoat in desert terrain).

Quote[/b] ]However, I'm not too sure that dropping a WMD on a city like the bugs did is the right answer.

I like how you're 'not certain'. &nbsp;A civilian incursion 'might not' warrant a nuclear scale attack.

Quote[/b] ] &nbsp;But, then again, it may have been the only answer the bugs had if they really did feel threatened somehow. What other means of interstellar defense do the bugs have other than launching meteors at their opponents? &nbsp;None, as far as the movie showed us. What else would they have done to defend themselves?

We know they can spread from planet to planet, so that gives them another means of response, just as the Terrans could respond by shipping out troops the fight. &nbsp;The bug strategy is reminiscent to going for the ICBMs at the first sign of war.

Quote[/b] ]Adding more to that point, there is also the likeliness that humans really are as much of a threat as the bugs may have believed. The evidence? While the anger the humans have toward the bugs for the attack is more than understandable, what still amazes me is that hardly any blame fell upon those extremists for their part in provoking the Arachnids, and those few who did place blame on them were brushed aside and ignored.

The same reason nobody was showing any kind of outrage when those same extremists got massacred. &nbsp;They willingly left the current Terran government and then by their own choice settled on a planet that same government had warned them not to. &nbsp;Nobody gave a damn because it was a completely different group of humans who had nothing to do with the ones the bugs decided to drop the big damn rock on.

Quote[/b] ]I also got the impression that they only reason the humans even bothered to declare the bugs' territory off limits was because they felt the bugs were too dangerous to try and challenge, not because they had any true intentions to &quot;live and let live&quot;.

Where do you get this impression from? &nbsp;The humans from what we know of their technology could have easily annihilated the bugs as a race if they chose to with no need to land troops at all. &nbsp;The only reason it even gets into this sort of thing is because Sky Marshall Dienes (and his successor) were complete morons without an ounce of tactical or strategic sense. &nbsp;After all, there's nothing much the bugs can do against a widely spread fleet of ships dropping 300 megaton nukes on them from orbit (or better yet nudging a few of those asteroids out of Klendathu's belt). &nbsp;The question is would it have been cheaper and easier to set up colonies inside bug territory (since at this point as far as anyone knew they were just a species of animal with some strange evolutionary quirks) and have to garrison them with troops to protect from bug attack, to use up a mess or nukes or fuel exterminating them (and probably ruining the real estate you want), or just find another planet, it's not like there aren't plenty of the things in our galaxy. &nbsp;The bugs weren't considered any kind of real threat, just a hazard.. which they would have stayed throughout the war if not for the aforementioned incompetence.

Quote[/b] ]If the Arachnids were weaker and not all that dangerous, there's no doubt in my mind that the humans would have conquered or destroyed them, feeling it their &quot;right&quot; to dominate the galaxy.

A Galaxy is a big place. &nbsp;If humans controlled the entire remainder of the galaxy aside from the AQZ the war would be won before it even started due simply to the massive resource disparity.

[Cole Deschain]

Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 03 2004,23:10)](only this time PDCs took the offending rock out before it could cause the damage they wanted).
<font color='#0000FF'>That looked like a government-sponsored simulation to me.

Quote[/b] ]If it was just eating the brains there would have been no reason to keep Carmen and Zander alive since it takes some minutes for oxygen deprivation to begin causing brain damage.

Sure there is. It's called a badly-conceived plot, and a need to keep Denise Richards alive at all costs. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with your assesment of the brain bugs.


Quote[/b] ]How are they Nazi-esque again? &nbsp;I don't see any oppression of minorities, I don't see or hear any mention of death camps.

No, we don't see anything of the kind.. But remember, most of the societal details come through the propaganda film lens. Additionally, we do get to see how trials are conducted.

[Cole Deschain]

Quote[/b] (SandwormPhish @ April 03 2004,21:09)]There was however no ultimatum. &nbsp;The only warning the humans got was that everyone at Port Joe Smith had been massacred.
<font color='#0000FF'>I dunno, maybe the fact that it was only one asteroid made it an ultimatum in the eyes of the bugs. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

At any rate, my point was that wildly disproportionate responses are as much a human failing as a bug one.

In fact, the &quot;overkill response&quot; is the muost human trait the bugs show in the entire movie.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]In fact, the &quot;overkill response&quot; is the muost human trait the bugs show in the entire movie.

Oh, I don't know if that could be considered a &quot;human&quot; trait. For example, some might say that it is &quot;overkill&quot; for a cobra to spit blinding venom into the eye of a would-be attacker just to warn it to &quot;stay away&quot;. What the bugs did to Buenos Aires seemed to be a large scale version of the same exact thing. It was a &quot;stay the hell away from us&quot; message, and about the only kind they could give (aside from sending their spores to Earth and starting a full-scale invasion, which would have been even more &quot;overkill&quot;). The manner in which the humans responded was the equivilant of that would-be predator trying to attack the cobra even more furiously after getting venom in it's eyes, rather than taking a hint and leaving the cobra alone.


Now, on to the subject of comparing the humans in ST to the Nazis. First, I'd like to address the issue of the similar outfits. No offense, SWP, but saying the identical outfits &quot;mean nothing&quot; is absolutely ridiculous. I suppose if they had swastikas painted on their architecture, you'd think it was &quot;just a coincidence&quot;. Really now, if the filmakers didn't intend for the humans to seem like Nazis, then why out of all the possible styles of clothing they could dream up, did they choose that?

In addition to the human officers dressing suspiciously identical to Nazis, the humans of ST live in a propaganda-driven facist society that (erroneously) believes itself to be a sort of &quot;master race&quot; over the galaxy, that must crush anything that threatens that supremacy. Gee, I can't imagine why I, and so many other moviegoers over the years, have made parallels between the human civilization of Starship Troopers and the Nazis http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Then, there's the issue of the lack of &quot;minorities&quot;. You're thinking too much in human-centered terms. In the STverse, while humans overall are the self-proclaimed &quot;master race&quot;, what we call &quot;minorities&quot; are represented by the non-humans that humanity wrongly believes itself superior to.

As for your argument that the humans just didn't know that the bugs had any sentience, that is very questionable. If you bothered to look beyond the human goverment's propaganda, you'd see some not-so-subtle hints that the goverment either knew or at least suspected that some of the Arachnids had human-level intelligence, but didn't want to let the public in on that information.

The first clue is the viewpoints held by scientists. Scientists knew full well that the Arachnids were biologically superior to humans. The Arachnids could do naturally all the things humans needed machines to do for them, including interstellar space travel. However, the viewpoints of the scientists were not something the public seemed to be willing to accept, nor would the goverment promote it.

Now, I realize that doesn't exactly proove that the human goverment somehow knew the Arachnids were sentient. The evidence of that is in the declaration of war against the Arachnids. Somehow, the goverment &quot;knows&quot; that the meteor strike on Buenos Aires was a pre-planned attack by the Arachnids, but how could the Arachnids possibly plan anything if they are non-intelligent? And, doesn't the whole concept of declaring war on what is suppose to be a non-sentient species sound a little strange? The truely revealing part comes when that general says that they must see to it &quot;that human civilization, not insect, dominates this galaxy always&quot;. Insect civilization? Gee, I didn't know a non-sentient species could possibly have a civilization!

Then again, some, or even all of this could just be an example of the horrible makes-Toho-look-good-by-comparison scriptwriting that Cole and I have spoken of about this movie.

Finally, if you really want a good example of the Nazi-like tendancies of the humans in ST, just take a look at the experiment they perform on the Brain Bug. The cruel and gruesome nature of that says a thousand words.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 05 2004,20:29)]
Quote[/b] ]Oh, I don't know if that could be considered a &quot;human&quot; trait. For example, some might say that it is &quot;overkill&quot; for a cobra to spit blinding venom into the eye of a would-be attacker just to warn it to &quot;stay away&quot;.

Once the Cobra decides to go for the poison loogie it's well past the point of warning you off.

Quote[/b] ] What the bugs did to Buenos Aires seemed to be a large scale version of the same exact thing. It was a &quot;stay the hell away from us&quot; message, and about the only kind they could give (aside from sending their spores to Earth and starting a full-scale invasion, which would have been even more &quot;overkill&quot;).

Launching a kinetic strike against a population center is not a warning, it's an act of war.

Quote[/b] ]The manner in which the humans responded was the equivilant of that would-be predator trying to attack the cobra even more furiously after getting venom in it's eyes, rather than taking a hint and leaving the cobra alone.

The manner in which the humans responded was closer to returning fire when someone takes potshots at you. &nbsp;Though I'm still wondering why they didn't say screw it to the whole invasion idea and just nuke the hell out of hte place, it's not like the bugs actually hang out on real estate that's easy to live on.

Quote[/b] ]Now, on to the subject of comparing the humans in ST to the Nazis. First, I'd like to address the issue of the similar outfits. No offense, SWP, but saying the identical outfits &quot;mean nothing&quot; is absolutely ridiculous. I suppose if they had swastikas painted on their architecture, you'd think it was &quot;just a coincidence&quot;.

1.) It's an outfit. &nbsp;Without behavior to match it really does mean nothing. &nbsp;For example the uniforms of the 4th Imperium in David Weber's 'Mutineer's Moon' books are said to be disturbingly reminiscent of Nazi uniforms (namely because hitler's bunch copied the design from them) but the Imperium is anything but nazi-like. &nbsp;It's an outfit, it's like saying someone's evil for wearing black.

2.) You do realize that Hitler stole the swastika right?

Quote[/b] ]Really now, if the filmakers didn't intend for the humans to seem like Nazis, then why out of all the possible styles of clothing they could dream up, did they choose that?

I already answered, the Nazi's were snappy dressers &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Quote[/b] ]In addition to the human officers dressing suspiciously identical to Nazis, the humans of ST live in a propaganda-driven facist society

Your only evidence backing that claim is the propoganda (which I remind you is hardly specific to facist regimes). &nbsp;

Quote[/b] ] that (erroneously) believes itself to be a sort of &quot;master race&quot; over the galaxy, that must crush anything that threatens that supremacy.

Where the hell are you getting this stuff? &nbsp;Where, really because last time I checked it doesn't exist (aside from an initial belief that humans were superior life-forms to bugs which was at the time backed up by all the evidence the Federation have). &nbsp;The same master race that was perfectly willing to leave the bugs alone until they nuked a population center. &nbsp;Yeah they're certainly going out of their way to ensure human dominance.

Quote[/b] ] Gee, I can't imagine why I, and so many other moviegoers over the years, have made parallels between the human civilization of Starship Troopers and the Nazis http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Because like you they seem to base everything on surface impressions?

Quote[/b] ]Then, there's the issue of the lack of &quot;minorities&quot;. You're thinking too much in human-centered terms. In the STverse, while humans overall are the self-proclaimed &quot;master race&quot;, what we call &quot;minorities&quot; are represented by the non-humans that humanity wrongly believes itself superior to.

WHAT NON-HUMANS! &nbsp;For the love of God man please back your arguments up and quit ignoring every time your arguments are refuted. &nbsp;Before the war wit hteh Bugs the existance of the Brains was completely unknown. &nbsp;The only Arachnids the Federation had the opportunity to study were the likes of Warriors, Hoppers, Tankers, and Plasma bugs, the most intelligent of which has an IQ less than a third the human average (and in some cases less than 1/5th the human average).

Further a Facist regime is hardly the sort that would allow the sort of opinions on the air that we see after the Klendathu disaster as they have this tendency to supress dissenting opinions.


Quote[/b] ]The first clue is the viewpoints held by scientists. Scientists knew full well that the Arachnids were biologically superior to humans. The Arachnids could do naturally all the things humans needed machines to do for them, including interstellar space travel. However, the viewpoints of the scientists were not something the public seemed to be willing to accept, nor would the goverment promote it.


Incorrect. &nbsp;The Arachnids space capabilities, though they exist, are markedly inferior. &nbsp;Furthermore the biological superiority of the bugs is more than made up for by the fact that the humans technological superiority is even greater, able to easily overcome that same biological superiority, and it could have in a much more spectacular fasion if the humans weren't commanded by people with less tactical sense than your average squirrel. &nbsp;With a smart commander in charge Klendathu could have incurred nearly zero casualties in exchange for near total extermination of eveyr bug there. &nbsp;If you'd like an example of how the human tech superiority can work out just take a look at the assault on Whiskey Outpost. &nbsp;A single MI platoon was massacring bugs whole-sale with only small arms and a pair of Heavy Machine Guns. &nbsp;Now imagine if that battle had included the kind of support a modern army would have had, with anti-tank weapons, hand grenades (ones that are actually used when needed unlike the MI), air and artillery support, squad machineguns, and other such things? &nbsp;The Bugs losses would have been even more massive than they already were. &nbsp;This is made even worse by the fact that except for lobbing plasma at them the Arachnids have absolutely no way to contest or hold orbit, leaving the humans with a high-ground advantage and the ability to simply blow the hell out of them from orbit (if they weren't commanded by a bunch of retards).

Quote[/b] ]Now, I realize that doesn't exactly proove that the human goverment somehow knew the Arachnids were sentient. The evidence of that is in the declaration of war against the Arachnids. Somehow, the goverment &quot;knows&quot; that the meteor strike on Buenos Aires was a pre-planned attack by the Arachnids, but how could the Arachnids possibly plan anything if they are non-intelligent?

The humans backtracked the asteroid and noted it came out of the AQZ. &nbsp;And planning can be seen in nature all the time, such as the traps laid out by many forms of animal life to snare prey.

Quote[/b] ]And, doesn't the whole concept of declaring war on what is suppose to be a non-sentient species sound a little strange?

Not really considering that we've gone to lengths to exterminate even less intelligent organisms before.

Quote[/b] ]The truely revealing part comes when that general says that they must see to it &quot;that human civilization, not insect, dominates this galaxy always&quot;. Insect civilization? Gee, I didn't know a non-sentient species could possibly have a civilization!

Ants have civilization my friend. &nbsp;They have a heirarchy, they build an equivalent to cities, hell they even go to war.

Quote[/b] ]Finally, if you really want a good example of the Nazi-like tendancies of the humans in ST, just take a look at the experiment they perform on the Brain Bug. The cruel and gruesome nature of that says a thousand words.

It was captured for study plain and simple. &nbsp;Unlike wars against human opponents there is no readily available information on how the Brain does what it does, if there's any way to disrupt it's control over the other bugs, or even the best way to kill it. &nbsp;Besides, you make it sound like we should actually have any form of sympathy for a being that routinely maims other beings so they can't escape and it can suck their brains out of them while they're still alive.

[mecharodan]

<font color='#FF7F00'>I wished the bugs would win. Nobody can always get what they want though. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif It was Average.

[THE ONE AND ONLY]

Actually, according to a Dark Horse prequel limited comic series, Starship Troopers:Insect Touch, written by Warren Ellis, the Arachnids started the war. Thirty years before the events in the movie, a spoor meteor hit Mars. Thanks to Mars' thin atmosphere, the meteor was unable to properly stop, crashed too fast, and killed all the Arachnids on it. The Federal Military utilizing telemetry on the meteor's course were able to backtrack its course to Klendathu. The government sent a contact team to gather intellegence ,and possibly affect first contact with them if possible. When the contact team got to Klendauthu thier ship was greeted by a another meteor(not sent by the Arachnids) which damaged thier systems that left them with the option of starting first contact with the Arachnids. When the taem landed to collect thier probes, they found one impacted in a crater. However it turned out that the probe was actually pulled into the ground as part of a trap by the bugs, and the soldier sent to retrieve it was promptly killed. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif *The away team discovered that they had actually landed in the middle of the Arachnids mating season, and were barlely able to escape with thier lives. The series ended with the surviving members of the contemplating the coming conflict with the bugs, now that they knew of our existence.

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>Put in that context, things are radically different, of course.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Indeed it does. What is especially interesting about that DH prequel is that not only does it say the Arachnids started the war, but when you think about how the movie played out, it doesn't reflect too kindly on the humans either. From what OandO has told us of the comic, it seems to strongly suggest that the human goverment knew the bugs were sentient long before the war, but didn't bother to let the public know that. That also shows even more what an embarassing f### up the battle on Klendathu was on the goverment's part.

Of course, that comic probably isn't considered canonical by the filmakers, so the point is probably moot anyway. That's too bad.

[THE RUNS]

<font color='#EE9A4D'>Common how can people say that bugs gettin blowd up is not a great movie. &nbsp; http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Desu-Goji]

Yes! a SEQUEL! finally....

The movie is about &quot;A group of Troopers hides out from an advancing Arachnid Army, unaware that a muchgreater danger is already at Hand.&quot;

I got that from the Hollywood Videos Movie Companion. I never seen it...has anybody seen it yet? is it good? please o please tell me!

[kent]

The apocalypse is upon us.

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>Head for the hills. They've run out of GOOD movies to sequel.

[Tomzilla]

Quote[/b] (Cole Deschain @ May 03 2004,02:34)]Head for the hills. They've run out of GOOD movies to sequel.
I'd prefer it if they made GOOD movies period and not depend on making sequels.


(But alas, I enjoyed Starship Troopers.)

[Desu-Goji]

I agree with Tomzilla, Starship Troopers was enjoyable, the movie wasnt even close to bad, heck, it wasnt even close to being great, but that doesnt take away the joy.

By the way, didnt we already have BAD movies that returned with a GOOD sequel? just look at the first Friday The 13th (which isnt good as Starship Troopers), it returned with a &nbsp;good movie, am i right?

Starship Troopers was alot of fun, and its better than alot movies out there today IMO.

[Cole Deschain]

<font color='#0000FF'>... The first Friday the 13th was head and shoulders above any of its sequels.

But I digress.

ST already had a lengthy topic dedicated to it... I explained my position ad nauseum on that thread, if it's still up.

[DragonLord]

<font color='#FF0000'>Hm, never knew they made another one. &nbsp;I liked the first one.

[china]

<font color='#F52887'>i thought the first was great!!! It wasn't all about special effects. It did a great job creating likable characters to root for.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Desu-Goji]

Quote[/b] (china @ May 03 2004,18:52)]i thought the first was great!!! It wasn't all about special effects. It did a great job creating likable characters to root for.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thats true! i fell in love with Denise Richard's character.... &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif

[Desu-Goji]

I asked too early if anyone saw it, i found out its gonna be released straight to DVD on June 1, cant wait. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>ST2 was shown on the Action channel, for those of you who have Cable TV. I liked it better than the first movie (but then, I didn't like the first movie), although it was an almost direct rip-off of both &quot;Aliens&quot; (the whole thing is about a small group of soldiers is held-up in an abandoned base with the Arachnids trying to bust in) with and &quot;The Puppet Masters&quot; (there is a new type of Bug introduced that can take human hosts). The latter rip-off is very ironic when you think about it http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But still I enjoyed it better than the first movie. Much of the horrible acting that plauged the first movie is gone, and the characters are somewhat more likeable this time around (aside from Denise Richards, I HATED all the human characters in the first film, and was glad when they got ripped apart).

[china]

<font color='#F52887'>I just read a few reviews of this and they were not very positive. Oh well.

[Project Pimp]

Yeah I heard it sucks beyond comprehension and it uses stock footage (or rather, the exact same CGI animation sequences) of the bugs attacking from the first movie.

I liked the first movie, though. It was pretty awesome. And if you can find the ST total conversion for Duke Nukem 3D, and you're still playing that game after eight years, I highly reccomend it.

Anyone read the book? Can ya give me a rundown on what it's all about? Or how much it's like the movie. I saw an Outer Limits episode once that said it was based on ST. It sucked and the aliens were like... humanoid or something. lol.

[Dino Hunter 2.0]

Starship Troopers 2?! http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nonono2.gif

[china]

I saw this now! It's better than I thought. Morte scary than part one but less action and effects. But when you do see effects they are very good. I think most people would like it if they realize that its a different movie form the first. Anyway I give it ***1/2 out of *****

[baragon2005]

I just finished up watching it. I figured it would be a bit better than the first, but I guess my expectations were a tad too high. It was all a cliche. The dialouge, the acting, the humor, etc. If there is one thing I liked in the film, it was the bug FX. Still amazing, considering the first had outstanding SFX.

Starship Troopers - 3.5/4
Starship Troopers 2 - 2/4










:baragon:

[Saruman]

I picked it up and watched it last night. The effects for the bugs were still excellent. The movie itself was rather bad. I think they could have gotten better actors though a few of the characters were ok. The story was actually quite good because it showed that the bugs are intelligent and thinking creatures and not just the mindless insects we thought they were.

The main problem witht he film is that they focused on one small group of people and didn't bother getting into anything else about the "Bug War." I would have liked to see some Tanker Bugs just waxing groups of troopers. I also would have like to see some of those bugs that shoot the plasma blasts at the space ships. It needed something more than what we were given to help show that a full assualt on the Bug's was taking place.

It wasn't great and it wasn't the worst i've seen, it was just pretty much so so.

[Daikaijuking]

I think I'll wait until they play it on Sci-fi or something, the first one was dumb, i only liked the giant bugs.
I got a bad feeling about this one though, s I'm gonna wait til it socmes on T.V.

[Deoson]

Where can you get it or is it really coming to TV?

[MechaSpaceGhidorah]

I saw it on Digital cable. But that was a while ago.

[Saruman]

Where can you get it or is it really coming to TV?
It's out on DVD you should be able to find it at any of the major retailers for DVD's.

[Deoson]

Thanks! I'm going to Best buy on Thursday. I'll check for it.