Irys

[Dark Warrior]

After seeing a post mentioning Irys "eye" (that orb in its head) I recently thought about some other theories on how Irys navigates around its environment:

1)Seeing as Irys senses life force it uses other organisms it creates a "map" of the life force(Think of X-2 and when proffessor X used Cerebro) and as Irys gets more and more life force,it evolves more and more to get a proper eye,so to speak.

2)Irys see's like DareDevil did in the film(each sound helps define the environment,so to speak(again).

Its either them,or Irys eye is infact an eye.

BTW,I havent seen G3 yet,so I dont know if any of those theories have been disproven.

[Kaiju Nexus]

hmm, well any of those theories could be validated rather easily, but I believe that his "eye" is just infact that, an eye.  It really shows no other function, such as weaponary or a power source.

[Saruman]

I would say its a regular type of eye and he can see perfectly fine with it. But he can also sense the lifeforce of things as well and could probably use that similar to how DareDevil uses his "Radar Sense" to navigate if he had to.

[Black16]

You know, I don't think the glowing orb inside Irys' head even is an eye.  Remimber when Irys went through his first transformation?  His forhead began to glow yellow in the exact spot where his "eye" would later show up.

Just a thought...

[BubbleGum-Chan]

Is Iyrs ( http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif ) male or female ? I've seen him/her referred to both sexes, and in the ADV "Commentary with Gamera" they gave him/her a female voice. This confuses me even more. Or is Irys gender-less? Or does it have something to do with Ayana?  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dontgetit.gif

[Goji Son]

Well being that Gyaos are asexual she can be either but also all Gyaos are born female so its safe to say that Irys was born female but you never know after that.

[BubbleGum-Chan]

If Gyaos are a-sexual, how are they all female?

[Prince of Space]

<font color='#32CD32'>I would say female, but considering the undertones of the scene with Ayana, I'd have to say male.

To me, it's up to each individual fan to decide for themselves, that makes it a whole lot more fun. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mechagodzillasmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mechagodzillasmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mechagodzillasmilie.gif
http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif

[Black16]

The Gyaos are all female. &nbsp;The same method of reproduction is found in the real world with some types of lizards. &nbsp;And all the lizards are &quot;shes&quot;. &nbsp;Thus, Irys is female.

[PyrasTerran]

Irys is considered a he in Japanese, so that makes Irys male. He's not actually a full-fledged Gyaos, he's not the kind of kaiju that lays eggs, so there's no need for gender. Technically, he would probably be an it, but according to Ayana, it's a he, and if Ayana was able to figure out that Irys' &quot;people&quot; were killed by Gamera, then I believe that she knows whether it's a boy or not.

[Black Libra]

For god sakes, Irys is a female. Reason: too feminine to even come close to being a male. Some of her roars sound a bit girly, and the way she flies, she flies with grace. Now I know this is going to start a few debates, but it is my opinion. Oh yeah Prince Of Space, you never know, Irys could be a lesbian. &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif

[Prince of Space]

Quote[/b] (Black Libra @ Aug. 07 2003,17:12)]For god sakes, Irys is a female. Reason: too feminine to even come close to being a male. Some of her roars sound a bit girly, and the way she flies, she flies with grace. Now I know this is going to start a few debates, but it is my opinion. Oh yeah Prince Of Space, you never know, Irys could be a lesbian. *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif
<font color='#32CD32'>True. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
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http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/destroyahsmilie.gif

[PyrasTerran]

Irys' roar sounds like a whale. How does that sound feminine? Irys flies like a bad-*** who knows he's a bad-***, just because he doesn't rocket around like mad like Gamera does doesn't mean he's a chick. He's simply a polar opposite of Gamera or Godzilla. And he's not too feminine, many animes have totally girly guys.

[PyrasTerran]

..Wait a minute, I'm countering against a person who thinks Battra and Destroyah are females.. &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif

[Gothmog]

<font color='#FF0000'>Hm, I never heard anyone make the assumption that Battra is female before. I always thought that Battra is the direct opposite to Mothra, and Mothra is a girl which means Battra should be a guy. It is kinda strange that there are many Kaiju which have not been classified as any special gender. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif


I hath returned......

[Super Angillas]

I'm going with female. &nbsp;I just cannot consider anything that has he name Irys a male.

[BubbleGum-Chan]

Wasn't Irys named after Ayana's cat, though?

[Saruman]

Yes, Ayana name him after her cat.

[Black Libra]

Quote[/b] ]Irys' roar sounds like a whale. How does that sound feminine? Irys flies like a bad-*** who knows he's a bad-***, just because he doesn't rocket around like mad like Gamera does doesn't mean he's a chick. He's simply a polar opposite of Gamera or Godzilla. And he's not too feminine, many animes have totally girly guys.

Well, if you listen to it closely, the roar does sound rather girlish on some ocassions. And she hardly flies like a &quot;bad-***.&quot; And yes, IMO, feminine grace does affect the way a kaiju flies. Oh yes, in that last post of yours, where you said Ayana knew of Irys's sex, I didn't really see her, check, the little critter, she probably just made an assumption that it was a male.

Quote[/b] ]..Wait a minute, I'm countering against a person who thinks Battra and Destroyah are females..

Yes, Pyras do you have a problem with the way I classify a kaiju's sex? It really seems that way, you keep questioning the way I do so.

[Gothmog]

Quote[/b] (Black Libra @ Aug. 09 2003,12:00)]Oh yes, in that last post of yours, where you said Ayana knew of Irys's sex, I didn't really see her, check, the little critter, she probably just made an assumption that it was a male.
<font color='#FF0000'>Well, Ayana was in that cave together with Irys for a while, before Moribe came in. She could have &quot;checked&quot; him then, or maybe she learned that it was male when she and Irys made their mental connection. This is all guesses of course.


I hath returned......

[PyrasTerran]

Guesses that are right.

And I'm sorry, It really really picks at me of Battra being female. Then again, it must pick you that I say Irys is male.

As for being named Irys, technically he was named Iris, directly after the cat. Irys became his studio name. Like Orga.

There's nothing feminine at all about Megaguirus save her roar, and she is a full-fledged female.

He does fly with style, though you can't tell gender by the way a kaiju flies.

[Black Libra]

I'm sorry too, man. It actually doesn't pick at me, about your opinions on Irys's sex. It is your own opinion. Of course, you did say that there's nothing feminine about Megaguirus, so the same must apply to Battra then. Just because she's not feminine, or looks or sounds nothing like a female, doesn't mean that she's not a female. You never know.

Quote[/b] ]Well, Ayana was in that cave together with Irys for a while, before Moribe came in. She could have &quot;checked&quot; him then, or maybe she learned that it was male when she and Irys made their mental connection. This is all guesses of course.

I hope that's the only thing Ayana did to Irys in the cave, if you know what I mean. &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[PyrasTerran]

In the long run, Irys can be a boy or a girl. It's not like Kaneko has a public speech that says it's a he or she. What we can agree on, is that Irys kicks ***.

[Black Libra]

Quote[/b] ]What we can agree on, is that Irys kicks ***.

Amen to that. &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gothmog]

<font color='#FF0000'>Quote[/b] (Black Libra @ Aug. 09 2003,13:57)]I hope that's the only thing Ayana did to Irys in the cave, if you know what I mean. *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Well, I don`t know. That &quot;Irys, I`m so hot.&quot; remark left for a lot of possibilities, if you get my meaning. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


I hath returned......

[PyrasTerran]

Ha ha ha.

[PyrasTerran]

Hmm..

It could be a normal eye, however, he'd need another means of sight like you folks said, since his &quot;mask&quot; covered frontal view of the eye a bit.

[SuperXAsh]

How was Irys created? I've heard it was a sub species of Gyaos, and a guardian spirit thing (The Falcon or Phoenix of the South)...

So What is Irys? http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eyebrow.gif

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

[Godzilla2004]

It's really never entirely clear what Iris actually is. &nbsp;He/she is somehow related to the gyoas, and is an Atlantean creation. &nbsp;In myth, Irys is the phoenix, guardian of the south, (along with a tortiouse-guess who-a dragon, and a tiger who gard the north east and west). &nbsp;Ayana wonders if the guardians of north and south are enemies, and it does seem so. &nbsp;But in the end, all Iris is thought to be and all it is made out to be is rubbish. &nbsp;Iris turns out to be, not a gentle guardian as it is first made out to be, but a power hungry and evil nightmare that Gamera was predestined to fight. &nbsp;There may be inaccuracies there, but that's my peice on it.

[Kiryu goji]

Irys may actually have heat sensing tissises in his &quot;eye&quot;. This may explain how it hunts and sees. if this is so, then Irys' closest relative may in fact be, a pit viper.

[Darth Reaper]

Somebody once said that, on top of being able to suck the life out of you when touching you, Iris doesn't need to touch you to suck the life out of you. &nbsp;But, when I watched GAMERA III, I saw no evidence of this. &nbsp;Every time Iris sucked the life out of someone, she was touching them.

So, could somebody straiten this out for me? &nbsp;Does Iris need to touch you in order to suck the life out of you or not?

[kpa]

Iris is female?

Iris uses the claws at the end of its tentacles to drain the lifeforce of others so it would need to touch whatever it's &quot;eating&quot;.

[Saruman]

Actually thats not totally true Keith. If you watch the forest scene, when the full grown Irys is walking through the forest and then just sits and stops for some time, its the first military encounter. They show you a side shot of Irys from the forest floor, if you look at the ground in that picture, you can see all sorts of dead animals. There is no way that size, Irys could stab an animal without pulping it completely, so he has to beable to drain from atleast a limited range or some other means that we just havent seen.

[PyrasTerran]

I believe it's through the tentacles, mayhaps the red jewels in each one, it could be how he absorbed the girl's energy in the forest without stabbing into her.

[Hybrid Gojira]

Isn't it possible that Irys drained those animals before he grew in size? Afterall, he did have to penetrate Gamera to drain him.

[Darth Reaper]

I have to agree with Hybrid Gojira. &nbsp;In fact, I'll bet that the reason that Irys was able to get as big as she did is because she consumed the life forces of all of those animals. &nbsp;She lprobably wasn't quite as large when she killed them.

[kpa]

That's what I thought &nbsp;as well. The girl is clearly picked up and drained right after we see one of Iris' tentacles.

BTW Darth Reaper; both the movie's subtiltes and the people who made G3 refer to Iris as a male.

[SandwormPhish]

Irys probably qualifies more as an it than anything else (if it is a Gyaos based Atlantean creation I doubt they'd make the same mistake they did with their first creations)

[Black Libra]

Btw kpa, it doesn't matter what the subtitles say. Irys can be a female in someone else's eyes and a male in another's. Personally, I believe she's a female, of course everyone already knows that already.

Oh and SandwormPhish, why would they make her an it? If they did, then they would be copying themselves, because Gyaos are basically considered its, because of their asexual breeding, though in my eyes they're females. Technically, if they were to make a creature without copying their previous ones, they would have to make it strictly male or female, or at least, without any reproductive organs. That's what I think. So Irys in this case, is female. So maybe she can't reproduce without a male, which in this case, the Atlantians were wiped out before they could make another one.

So there.

[PyrasTerran]

Irys is a male, there's no arguement about it. The creators of G3 say it's a male. Ayana(the one who has a psychic link and can comminucate with Irys) says it's a male, so it's a male through and through.

[PyrasTerran]

sorry to double-post..

Quote[/b] ]Isn't it possible that Irys drained those animals before he grew in size? Afterall, he did have to penetrate Gamera to drain him.

Actually, Irys drained half the townspeople. That was how he got so big.

[kpa]

Quote[/b] (Black Libra @ Dec. 25 2003,14:04)]Btw kpa, it doesn't matter what the subtitles say. Irys can be a female in someone else's eyes and a male in another's. Personally, I believe she's a female, of course everyone already knows that already.
Sorry, but you're wrong. What the people who actually made these characters and movies have to say is the final word on the subject and they've said Iris is male. You can call it female all you want, but that doesn't make it accurate.

By your logic, for example, &nbsp;it doesn't matter than Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created Spider-Man as a male character, or that all the characters in the comics refer to him as a male, if some reader decides the character is a woman &quot;in their eyes&quot;. &nbsp;http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Project Pimp]

ROFLMAO!!

Anyway, from what I understand, Iris was created by the Atlanteans. For some reason... I don't remember. I only vividly remember one scene in that movie, and that's the questionable scene between Iris and Ayana. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

<font color='#FF0000'>I'm only guessing, but I think Irys is a demon.

[Gothmog]

<font color='#FF0000'>Yes, but he can still have a gender. BTW, I think Iris is either male(as stated in the film)or genderless. There are just some Kaiju that I can never think of as females. I can accept that some Kaiju are female if *I am given enough evidence in the film. Not just personal opinions without any real movie backing. Like Legion or Biollante for example. They are mostly thought of as females, and rightfully so, unlike Iris and Destoroyah.
I`m not saying that Des and Iris are male and that`s canon, just that there aren`t really any good evidence to support the female idea.
Just my 2 cents.




I hath returned......

[Husnock]

Could it be possible that Irys is asexual (like the other Gyaos) with a male persona? &nbsp;For example, it's stated in G1 that the Gyaos are all born female, but can later become asexual, and thus can reproduce on their own. &nbsp;Maybe Irys is sorta the opposite: born male, goes asexual, keeps male persona?

As for &quot;his&quot; origin, I always thought that &quot;he&quot; was some sorta advanced Gyaos, like all the various sites (including this one) state.

<font color='#EE9A4D'>Irys is a kind of ancient God like King Seaser and Majin.

[Husnock]

Regarding whether or not Irys has to touch its victims to drain their life forces when it is at its biggest, there's no question that it does. &nbsp;Remember that schoolgirl that picked on Ayana and her little brother all the time? &nbsp;When Irys caught her, it clearly picked her up with a tentacle to drain her. &nbsp;It didn't show the tentacle, but she clearly began to scream and flail about as something lifted her off the ground. &nbsp;It's likely that Irys doesn't have to impale something smaller by its adult stage, just touch it.

[Baryonyx13]

<font color='#000080'>There's one thing I never quite understand and haven't even heard being considered. Many people are so sure Irys can beat any Godzilla (or most any monster) because of his tentacles absorbing his never ending power. But I'm curious. What would happen if he was faced with Godzilla's (or any other semi-tough) beam weapon? I've never heard it discussed, but how would he react? Sure he swated away Gamera's fire balls, but a steady stream of emense power? I mean, Irys has not been proven to be resistent to any extent from energy weapons. He's never been hit! Not once! Except for Gamera's fire fist (we all know what happened then), which for some reason people think is more powerful than his normal fireball (I haven't yet heard why they have that opinion). So, to me anyway, I would say an actual hit from an energy weapon would cause some damage. If he held up his tentacles to block said beam, they'd be torn to peices seeing as how only the tips have armour. Sure the armour was left after Gamera incenerated Irys' insides, but do I need to show the picture again? There's a large amount of tissue he has NOT covered by armour (Not that his armour was proven at blocking energy weapons either, the fist only touched Irys' insides).

I really think he is given way too much credit for what he's done in his movie career (or rather hasn't done). I think some things accredited to him (durability, for one thing) are much more speculation (and by speculation, I mean crazy scientist's theories of baseless speculation of how to kill random giant monsters) than any sort of proven facts.

Well. That was releiving. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif &nbsp;Oh yeah, I'll get to the point. Irys is VERY over estimated and his power is supported by much less than CONCRETE evidence, as I have heard it called.

And one more thing. I'd like to hear other's opinions.



http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/legionsmilie.gif

(Oh boy, I can't WAIT for the backlash on this one! &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cursing.gif Nuh uh Irys is great your just jealos Godzilla isn't he can kill anything watch the movie you'll see he can wipe up Gamera Godzilla and Legion at the same time Gamera just got a cheap shot blah blah blah....)

[Roehm]

I don't think that just because a creature can't really take a hit doens't make him/her weak. But you forgot one thing, Gamera movies are a lot different about how there kaiju take damage. Gamera is more true to life, where they actually get cut, dismembered and other such things. But they also go more into stuff like, &nbsp;just because they are big doesn't make them have some kind of inpenitible skin. Example the gyaos are easily destroyed by one or two fire balls. The only reason it took a mana beam to kill Legion is because its skeleton is on the outside of its body, there for giving a great defense. But his limbs where blown off by missile, saying that his defense wasn't that great, but good enought to give Gamera trouble.

Now onto the subject and Iris' death. If anyones gonna blame Iris dying on anything they should blame Iris himself. Shooting fireballs at a creature that is regenerated by fire &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nonono2.gif &nbsp;. Now im sure someone might say, well he didn't know so how can you blame him. Ok for one thing, why would you take somethings power and use it against him. When Gamera knows more about the power Iris had then Iris knew. Thats just plain stupidity, you never fight someone on there own playing field. Not too mentions Iris' laser beams where doing good enough why stop something that is already working. Maybe Iris is a little slow in the head? &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif &nbsp;. I also don't consider Gamera actually hitting Iris with his fist a lucky shot. I think if Iris is as godly as some people make him out to be he could have dodged that.

I still think Iris is a cool monster, and he is very powerful. I think people hype him too much. I dont think he could take Goji. Lets try to keep comparisons to there own film studios. Its not the greatest when you are comparing two monsters, from two very different films.

P.S. Iris was actaully hit more than once, aside from the fire fist. During the sky battle he did his little spinning shell attack.

[Baryonyx13]

<font color='#000080'>I meant been hit by energy weapons rather than physical contact. I didn't mean Irys isn't strong, just that he is overhyped in all his 'abilities', and I noticed people using unproven durability as to why he would win fights in the Kaiju Karnage. Just thought I'd go ahead and try explain why he isn't as TOUGH as people say. No doubt he has the fire power to be a good fighter, but it too is over estimated.

More than anything, I wanted to show she could be defeated, and wasn't quite the God some people make her into. And it wouldn't be too hard to take her down if you think about it.



http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/legionsmilie.gif

[Roehm]

ohh im sorry, No I dont think she could take a good soild beam to the chest.

[PyrasTerran]

Heh. As Cole has said, Irys wasn't really considered much until folks like me started saying stuff.

Irys *has* been hit by energy. In the dogfight, he is barraged by a spinning streem of jetfire energy from Gamera. On top of that, Gamera bit right into him, and we see chunks flying, during that dogfight. Both of these attacks were aimed at the chest. However, when we see Irys again in Kyoto, he has no scratches on him.

What do you make of that?

And about Irys' strategy to use the fireballs against Gamera, Barugon's beam, when reflected back, did damage to him. Guiron's shuriken, when knocked back, did pierce him. There is no fault in trying to use an opponent's weapon against him.

Irys is in no way a god, although he is considered one by crazy cultists. Even if he was, in Kaneko's world, I'm sure Irys' power would be the equivalent of a god. Gods aren't depicted so powerful in most films, if one recalls Princess Mononoke(excluding the forest spirit). There are kaiju that can beat Irys, there's no doubt about it. I simply believe the range of kaiju that can is few.

[kent]

Irys, by observing the film, has some of the worst physical durability of any monster I have ever seen. His flesh is soo soft and easy to break that it's not even funny. A regular Gyaos would have better durability than Irys and Gamera certainly does.
But getting back to the subject, Irys wouldn't be able to stop a streaming beam. It'd be impossible for it to do. It would, literally, RIP APART Irys.

[PyrasTerran]

Then you totally missed the dogfight scene? If your evidence is Gamera punching through him, also realize that Irys' body is getting ready to go through changes during that moment, leaving him and his physical body very vulnerable. If he was so weak in reality, when Gamera rammed into him in the dogfight, Irys should have been totalled.

[Roehm]

Ok it is one thing for a body to resist physical Damage it is another to resist energy. Gamera's fist was made of pure fire so it would easily burn through Iris. The heat would terriblie weaken the skin cells or any creature making it very easy to do damage. Like they say heat causes things to expand there for making his skin thinner.

And the whole thing about using Gamera's fire against him. They have showed in many shows how Gamera like, and is immune to fire in one way or anyother. The whole thing about Barugon's rainbow ray, is because it was already flawed enough, in the fact that it could be reflected by a regular mirror. And Guiron could really reflect or absorb his stars because they are made out of metal or something. Well unless he was made out of metal, which I dont think he is.

[Saruman]

Baryonyx13
Quote[/b] ]If he held up his tentacles to block said beam, they'd be torn to peices seeing as how only the tips have armour.

It is only the tips that are armored. But you are also missing the fact that plenty of the length of Irys's tentacles were within that explosion and were completely unharmed. Remmber the tip meets the actual tentacle right at the epicenter of those explosions, so going by your thinking, the ends of Irys's tentacles should have been completely blown off and the tentacle destroyed, but that never happened did it. And we know how powerful G3 Gameras plasma balls were so if Irys's tentacles can withstand that type of power, thats pretty impressive.

Quote[/b] ]Except for Gamera's fire fist (we all know what happened then), which for some reason people think is more powerful than his normal fireball (I haven't yet heard why they have that opinion).

That would probably be because its the combined power of two of Gameras Plasma Balls. He absorbed the 2 Irys fired to make it.

Quote[/b] ]What would happen if he was faced with Godzilla's (or any other semi-tough) beam weapon? I've never heard it discussed, but how would he react?

Its hard to say because we havent seen it happen. But people can speculate it either for or against. Based on what I saw Irys do in the movie I would think he would beable to affect a concentrated beam in a few possible ways.

1. He could use his tentacles, specifically the tips to deflect most of the beam away. Hell he could use 3 tentacles to block and still have 1 he could attack with.

2. He swatted away Gameras plasma balls. This means he has to have some form of control over EM fields. The reason is because the plasma balls didnt explode upon contact with his tentacles until he detonated them with another tentacle away from him. So its possible, even using #1 above, that he could physically block the beam with his tentacles deflecting it and then use the EM field control to effect the degree of deflection even more.

3. Most beams arent all that large in diameter. If you look at Irys's arms, the Exoskeleton/Armor plating on his arms could be brought together and be used as a shield to block a concentrated beam. Remember Irys still has 4 other appendages to attack with while blocking with his arms.

4. You could use a combination of all of the above.

Quote[/b] ]Sure the armour was left after Gamera incenerated Irys' insides, but do I need to show the picture again? There's a large amount of tissue he has NOT covered by armour (Not that his armour was proven at blocking energy weapons either, the fist only touched Irys' insides).

There isnt as much of Irys not covered by Armor as you believe their to be. And the fist DIDN'T only touch Irys's insides, his whole chest and abdominal region is covered with his armor. The only spots that arent are the &quot;glowing sac's&quot; that dot his chest and midsection. The Plasma Fist definately touched his armored sections, that there is no doubt.

Quote[/b] ]I really think he is given way too much credit for what he's done in his movie career (or rather hasn't done). I think some things accredited to him (durability, for one thing) are much more speculation (and by speculation, I mean crazy scientist's theories of baseless speculation of how to kill random giant monsters) than any sort of proven facts.

Or not given enough credit in your case. When you are looking for excuses as to why a monster isnt as powerful as others believe, then thats what you are going to focus on and see.

The same thing is done with Godzilla, contrary to what most people think, Godzilla is hardly even close to being the most powerful Kaiju, and you can take any version of Goji you want. There are many Kaiju that would wipe the floor with him in a one on one fight, but does that make Goji weak? No it doesnt. Its the same with Irys, there are Kaiju that can beat him, but that doesnt make him weak.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Radenoff @ April 01 2004,14:45)]And the whole thing about using Gamera's fire against him. They have showed in many shows how Gamera like, and is immune to fire in one way or anyother. The whole thing about Barugon's rainbow ray, is because it was already flawed enough, in the fact that it could be reflected by a regular mirror. And Guiron could really reflect or absorb his stars because they are made out of metal or something. Well unless he was made out of metal, which I dont think he is.
You might want to note the Toho also likes to use this same technique against Godzilla. We have seen numerous times when he has had his own beam used against him and with good results. Godzilla has proven many times over that he cant absorb his own beam.

So its not like its not worth trying. Irys didnt know that Gamera would simply absorb the plasma energy and redirect it into forming the Plasma Fist. Which is what killed him, its actually very important to the ending of the film that it happened that way.

[PyrasTerran]

Quote[/b] ]And the whole thing about using Gamera's fire against him. They have showed in many shows how Gamera like, and is immune to fire in one way or anyother. The whole thing about Barugon's rainbow ray, is because it was already flawed enough, in the fact that it could be reflected by a regular mirror. And Guiron could really reflect or absorb his stars because they are made out of metal or something. Well unless he was made out of metal, which I dont think he is.

That doesn't change the fact that Irys shouldn't be considered an idiot because he shot Gamera's plasma balls back at him. Or are you going to accuse him of not doing his homework and watching the Gamera movies before fighting Gamera?

[Roehm]

Ok you two make a good point, I shouldn't blindly judge. I guess Iris was unknowing, so I take back calling him stupid. But I still blame Iris for its own death and not a lucky shot.

[PyrasTerran]

Lucky shot? Knowing Gamera, I say he was *aiming* for Irys' hole. It wasn't a lucky shot, it was Gamy's cunning.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Angilas @ April 02 2004,20:50)]Irys was powerful indeed...but Gamera coulda done what he did the minute he met Irys...they just dragged out the plot with irys...and the only thing he did was take out a few planes and stomp some trees and suck bout 20 people lifeless...so hes not all to krazily powerful....Gam took him out quick...besides Gamera blew off his own arm....not Irys!
You did realize that Gamera was getting his butt handed to him by Irys at every turn. Gamera blew off his own arm BECAUSE if he didnt Irys would have sucked all the life right out of him and killed him, he didnt have to many options.

Remember Gamera isnt stupid, hes an intelligent thinking creature. Why would he blow off his own arm instead of firing the plasma ball right into Irys's face at point blank range? Think about that, its the most important decision in the movie, and why does he not do it but instead blows off his own arm. See what sensible answer you can come up with.

[Roehm]

Saurman's got a point, I guess he figured why risk shooting at Iris and possibly missing. When he could blow his own arm off, and guarntee escape.

[spydrmanjr]

Also, Irys' arm was right there with Gamera's, and it was unfazed from the explosion nearby, which seemed to have vaporized his arm.

[kent]

The ending fight sequence, though, really wasn't much in the way of anything. Gamera attacks Irys in the air and gets bledgend (if that's even a word), then they have a stare-down, then they try a little hand to hand in which Irys impales Gamera and Gamera backs away while Irys still has its fist or spear in Gamera, then they enter the train station where Irys takes the girl, Gamera rips the girl out of Irys, then Irys impales Gamera's hand then he blows it off, Irys fires his beam and Gamera uses the fire to kill Irys. The End. Nothing much to it.
Irys is pretty poor at hand to hand though. But that really is not Irys' fault. More or less a flaw in his own physical design. While he did impale Gamera, that's about all he could do. Gamera could take swats at him in which Irys couldn't do to him. The fight had a lot of potential, but I felt the true power of both monsters weren't revealed in the final fight. While the ending fight was colorful, it was short which made it disappointing.

[Saruman]

^^

I think someone is missing out on alot of what is going on in this movie.

And Irys is hardly a poor HTH fighter. In pure Physical Strength, he is extremely powerful. Remember G2, Gamera physically was able to hold Legion in place at the airport allowing the planes to get away, Gamera lost minimal ground in that battle. Irys on the other hand, physically pushed around a more powerful version of Gamera. Gamera never even slowed Irys's advance. And you might want to take note that Irys has some of the most useful arms of any Kaiju. They are very much like a humans with the exception that the hands and forearm are replaced by armored claws that have a extendable forearm blade.

Though I guess if your idea of poor physical combat is Gamera getting pushed around, constantly losing ground, getting impaled clean through his chest and having his arm pinned to a wall so he had to blow it off, as not being a good physical combatant, then I suggest that you dont bet on any boxing matches ever.

[Tomzilla]

Saruman-

It is only the tips that are armored. But you are also missing the fact that plenty of the length of Irys's tentacles were within that explosion and were completely unharmed.

What were you watching? After knocking the fireballs away and allowing them to plumet into the ground to explode, Irys' tentacles were well out of reach of whatever damage the explosions could cause.

Remmber the tip meets the actual tentacle right at the epicenter of those explosions

So I guess if I were to hold a stick up to a fireplace, my hand would be suffering the same amount of burn damage as the stick itself? No. My hand, however, would be bathed by the heat. But there's a difference between being bathed by the heat and actually touching its source, i.e. fire.

Based on what I saw Irys do in the movie I would think he would beable to affect a concentrated beam in a few possible ways.

1. He could use his tentacles, specifically the tips to deflect most of the beam away. Hell he could use 3 tentacles to block and still have 1 he could attack with.

Someone has been watching too much DragonBall Z. You're also assuming whoever is discharging the ray itself would be willing to keep the blast in the same spot.

2. He swatted away Gameras plasma balls. This means he has to have some form of control over EM fields. The reason is because the plasma balls didnt explode upon contact with his tentacles until he detonated them with another tentacle away from him. So its possible, even using #1 above, that he could physically block the beam with his tentacles deflecting it and then use the EM field control to effect the degree of deflection even more.

So I guess if someone were to throw a baseball at me and I knocked it away with my bat, I have some form of control over EM fields and gravity? I don't understand something, first you're stating Irys' tentacles are strong enough to withstand the full fury of Gamera's plasma fireballs (I mean the organic parts) but then go off and mention the reason Irys' tentacles survived in the first place is because they have some sort of EM control? It is true that Gamera's fireballs are plasma based and as we all know, plasma is also a form of electromagnetic energy (which is why Legion was able to withstand the fireballs) but just because something was able to bat them away doesn't mean they can control EM fields. Like you said, this is only an assumption of yours. I couldn't agree more.

3. Most beams arent all that large in diameter. If you look at Irys's arms, the Exoskeleton/Armor plating on his arms could be brought together and be used as a shield to block a concentrated beam. Remember Irys still has 4 other appendages to attack with while blocking with his arms.

The only problem with your theory is it would be hard for Irys to do this. The only things that would really reach to try and attempt to do what you just suggested would be his spears. The actual metallic arms would be unable to reach each other and if they were able to, then wouldn't provide much protection. And of course the spears would be decimated in the process. Also, Irys didn't exactly do this to try and fend off Gamera's plasma fist. Yes, I understand Gamera was right next to him, but if another creature were to fire their beam, it would go really fast. A lot faster than Gamera's plasma fist slamming into Irys' gut...

4. You could use a combination of all of the above.

Good luck with that.


I'll try to explain something. I don't think and never will in a million years that if Gamera were to grab one of Irys' tentacles, hold it up to his maw and fire his fireball that the skin tissue of Irys' tentacle would be able to withstand it--and not be blown apart. You have to remember, Irys was knocking those fireballs away in half a second. Hardly being exposed to the true destructive power those fireballs possess. Gamera's fireballs succeeded in only breaking through a skyscraper and then exploding right behind it (the collision between the building and Gamera's fireball was enough to cause it to drop and stop its searing path). Which means the fireballs don't pack that much force.

You see, Irys would need to keep his tentacles in the same spot to withstand a beam of concentrated power and pray his opponent would just keep the beam there. And even if that were to happen, you'd basically be saying that since Irys' metallic tips were able to withstand a fireball for a split second then it could take on a beam a heck of a lot longer, no matter how powerful it is... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Also, if say Godzilla were to charge up and fire his heat ray at Irys--do you think Irys would try to &quot;knock it away&quot;? What I mean is...knocking it away would mean the movement of the tentacle itself, thus exposing the organic part of the tentacle. I think Godzilla and other monsters who are capable of beam attacks can fire the beam faster and direct it to other parts of Irys' body--faster than the movement of his tentacles.

Oh, I thought I'd comment on one more thing...


And Irys is hardly a poor HTH fighter. In pure Physical Strength, he is extremely powerful. Remember G2, Gamera physically was able to hold Legion in place at the airport allowing the planes to get away, Gamera lost minimal ground in that battle. Irys on the other hand, physically pushed around a more powerful version of Gamera. Gamera never even slowed Irys's advance.

I don't know how many times I've said this. In Gamera 3, Asagi even said that Gamera was WEAKER in his fight against Irys. She said Ayana was connected with Gamera and was fighting against him. As we all know, Gamera had always drawn strength from the human who was connected with him and it had always helped. If you do the math with what she said, you'd see that it made sense and was true.

And you might want to take note that Irys has some of the most useful arms of any Kaiju. They are very much like a humans with the exception that the hands and forearm are replaced by armored claws that have a extendable forearm blade.

They are far from being the most useful arms of any kaiju. You want to know why? Because the only direction Irys can move his arms is forward. The spears extending their lengths is the only thing that could attach itself to another monster's hide. Irys can't swing them, he can't really grapple with an opponent unless they have already impaled another monster. Luckily those spears were able to extend, because if they couldn't, then those arms would be useless.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] ]But I'm curious. What would happen if he was faced with Godzilla's (or any other semi-tough) beam weapon? I've never heard it discussed, but how would he react? Sure he swated away Gamera's fire balls, but a steady stream of emense power?

Immense power is a subjective turn. *There's a fairly good chunk of evidence that suggests Godzilla would have a tough time with a single Hyper Gyaos much less Gamera or Irys.

Quote[/b] ] I mean, Irys has not been proven to be resistent to any extent from energy weapons. He's never been hit! Not once!

1.) Then what do you call the plasma shots impacting his tentacles when he hit them away?

2.) What do you call taking a sawing by a jet capable of lifting a multi-thousand ton monster into the air and propelling it at speeds usually only obtained by jet aircraft?

Quote[/b] ]Except for Gamera's fire fist (we all know what happened then), which for some reason people think is more powerful than his normal fireball (I haven't yet heard why they have that opinion).

Perhaps because it was formed from multiple fireballs, and ended up expending most of its energy INSIDE his armor plating.

Quote[/b] ]So, to me anyway, I would say an actual hit from an energy weapon would cause some damage. If he held up his tentacles to block said beam, they'd be torn to peices seeing as how only the tips have armour.

The tips may be the only segment that's armored, however the armored part of Irys' tentacles are roughly shaped like arrowheads, with the fleshy part meeting the tentacle about halfway up its length. *With that kind of setup some of that flesh HAD to have been exposed to Gamera's fireballs when it struck them aside, yet they weren't destroyed.

Quote[/b] ]Sure the armour was left after Gamera incenerated Irys' insides, but do I need to show the picture again? There's a large amount of tissue he has NOT covered by armour (Not that his armour was proven at blocking energy weapons either, the fist only touched Irys' insides).

Plenty more then just the armored bits was left as I recall.

Quote[/b] ]I really think he is given way too much credit for what he's done in his movie career (or rather hasn't done). I think some things accredited to him (durability, for one thing) are much more speculation (and by speculation, I mean crazy scientist's theories of baseless speculation of how to kill random giant monsters) than any sort of proven facts.


By all means, back up your assertion and we can get somewhere.

Quote[/b] ]I meant been hit by energy weapons rather than physical contact. I didn't mean Irys isn't strong, just that he is overhyped in all his 'abilities', and I noticed people using unproven durability as to why he would win fights in the Kaiju Karnage

I seem to recall doing quite an extensive overview on Irys' durability at one time. *I'm sure some of the others remember it as well (I also seem to recall some uproar when it suggested Godzilla's beam was inferior to a hyper gyaos'http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Quote[/b] ]More than anything, I wanted to show she could be defeated,

Anyone who's seen the film could tell you that http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif



Radenoff:

Quote[/b] ]Shooting fireballs at a creature that is regenerated by fire * *. Now im sure someone might say, well he didn't know so how can you blame him. Ok for one thing, why would you take somethings power and use it against him. When Gamera knows more about the power Iris had then Iris knew. Thats just plain stupidity, you never fight someone on there own playing field.

This was not a finesse situation. *This was a brute force one, and as Irys had not been previously exposed to Gamera's ability to manipulate and regenerate from flames/plasma he had no reason to assume that he'd be able to do what he did. *And just because something has a power does not mean it is immune to it.

Quote[/b] ]Not too mentions Iris' laser beams where doing good enough why stop something that is already working. Maybe Iris is a little slow in the head?

He'd tried his beams previously with Gamera and while capable of penetrating his shell they don't appear to be capable of causing the kind of crippling damage neccesary to put off said giant terrapin.

Quote[/b] ]Gamera's fist was made of pure fire so it would easily burn through Iris. The heat would terriblie weaken the skin cells or any creature making it very easy to do damage. Like they say heat causes things to expand there for making his skin thinner.


Minor nitpick, it's plasma, not fire and yes there is quite a bit of difference. *And yes you are correct in assuming there is a difference between physical impacts and energy weapon strikes.

Quote[/b] ]And the whole thing about using Gamera's fire against him. They have showed in many shows how Gamera like, and is immune to fire in one way or anyother.

The AUDIENCE has been shown these things. *Irys has not.

Angilas:
Quote[/b] ]Irys was powerful indeed...but Gamera coulda done what he did the minute he met Irys...they just dragged out the plot with irys...and the only thing he did was take out a few planes and stomp some trees and suck bout 20 people lifeless...so hes not all to krazily powerful....Gam took him out quick...besides Gamera blew off his own arm....not Irys!

There is a marked difference between Irys and the majority of Kaiju however that I think you're failing to take into account. *Most Kaiju tend to do most of their wrecking either during combat with another kaiju or when they happen to wander into some poor city. *Irys spend most of its time out in the country where there really wasn't all that much to destroy. *Furthermore when it did advance into the city it didn't just run about blowing things to hell like Goji and the Gyaos tend to. *It had an objective clearly established in its mind and it went straight for it.


Tomzilla:

Quote[/b] ]What were you watching? After knocking the fireballs away and allowing them to plumet into the ground to explode, Irys' tentacles were well out of reach of whatever damage the explosions could cause.

It's from the design of Irys' tentacles which is something like an arrowhead. *The tentacle actually meets the armored tip somewhere around halfway up the tip's length, meaning that with the point of impact where it is in the video some part of Irys' flesh would have been exposed to that plasma. *Yet the tentacles are later clearly visible and completely undamaged.

Quote[/b] ]So I guess if I were to hold a stick up to a fireplace, my hand would be suffering the same amount of burn damage as the stick itself? No. My hand, however, would be bathed by the heat. But there's a difference between being bathed by the heat and actually touching its source, i.e. fire.

No. *On the other hand if you stick your hand into the fireplace with the stick then it will, which is essentially the case here.

Quote[/b] ]Someone has been watching too much DragonBall Z. You're also assuming whoever is discharging the ray itself would be willing to keep the blast in the same spot.

Based on what we usually see in the films this is usually the case except in the case of King Ghidorah when he's doing his patented Ghidorah Head Flop.

Quote[/b] ]So I guess if someone were to throw a baseball at me and I knocked it away with my bat, I have some form of control over EM fields and gravity?

As a matter of fact technically you are as it's EM fields that make solids solid and if you're propelling a baseball at sufficient velocity to rise you are overcoming gravity. *But there is a bit of a difference between a baseball and a ball of plasma. *For one the ball of plasma needs a strong magnetic field to keep it from dispersing immediately into the atmosphere.

Quote[/b] ]It is true that Gamera's fireballs are plasma based and as we all know, plasma is also a form of electromagnetic energy (which is why Legion was able to withstand the fireballs) but just because something was able to bat them away doesn't mean they can control EM fields. Like you said, this is only an assumption of yours. I couldn't agree more.

Actually plasma is a state of highly energetic matter not energy (though if you go down far enough matter and energy are basically the same thing). *However to keep plasma from dispersing (i.e. staying in that nice little ball) it must have a magnetic field around it to keep the stuff together (that or some form of magic is involved, which is technically a possibility). *To manage that deflect Irys must have either:

A.) Shifted the direction of the magnetic field somehow.

B.) Pierced the magnetic field and imparted sufficient momentum to send the plasma ball away which means direct exposure to the stuff.

Quote[/b] ]The actual metallic arms would be unable to reach each other and if they were able to, then wouldn't provide much protection. And of course the spears would be decimated in the process.

How do you figured considering that they're by all appearances more heavily armored than the tentacle tips.


Quote[/b] ]Also, Irys didn't exactly do this to try and fend off Gamera's plasma fist. Yes, I understand Gamera was right next to him, but if another creature were to fire their beam, it would go really fast.

Gamera's positioning put him inside Irys' guard essentially. *Plus he may have been a bit on the distracted side what with having had a rather significant number of internal organs forcibly removed.

Quote[/b] ]Hardly being exposed to the true destructive power those fireballs possess. Gamera's fireballs succeeded in only breaking through a skyscraper and then exploding right behind it (the collision between the building and Gamera's fireball was enough to cause it to drop and stop its searing path). Which means the fireballs don't pack that much force.

Incorrect, it means his fireballs lack penetration power as they tend to, in most cases, impart their energy into the first object they hit. *Irys' beam weapons on the other hand are an example of a weapon with great penetration however their damage is very focused which means it requires greater accuracy to use effectively. *Gamera's fireballs however are anything but weak as fireball scalings and comparative performance show.

Quote[/b] ]You see, Irys would need to keep his tentacles in the same spot to withstand a beam of concentrated power and pray his opponent would just keep the beam there. And even if that were to happen, you'd basically be saying that since Irys' metallic tips were able to withstand a fireball for a split second then it could take on a beam a heck of a lot longer, no matter how powerful it is...

You're putting words in his mouth here as he never claimed those tentacle tips would stop a beam of any firepower level, he simply pointed out that they were capable of withstanding the rather impressive firepower Gamera wields (which tends to put it well above what most Toho monsters aside from a few of the most powerful can bring to bear).

Quote[/b] ]Also, if say Godzilla were to charge up and fire his heat ray at Irys--do you think Irys would try to &quot;knock it away&quot;? What I mean is...knocking it away would mean the movement of the tentacle itself, thus exposing the organic part of the tentacle. I think Godzilla and other monsters who are capable of beam attacks can fire the beam faster and direct it to other parts of Irys' body--faster than the movement of his tentacles.


Why would you expect this behavior? *The only monster to do it on a semi-regular basis is King Ghidorah.

Quote[/b] ]In Gamera 3, Asagi even said that Gamera was WEAKER in his fight against Irys. She said Ayana was connected with Gamera and was fighting against him.

The connection is between Ayana and Irys (which is like the Gamera/Asagi connection). *Ayana wanted vengeance on Gamera and Irys was able to draw strength from her freely as a result.

Quote[/b] ]You want to know why? Because the only direction Irys can move his arms is forward. The spears extending their lengths is the only thing that could attach itself to another monster's hide. Irys can't swing them, he can't really grapple with an opponent unless they have already impaled another monster. Luckily those spears were able to extend, because if they couldn't, then those arms would be useless.

That's because we're talking about a specialized weapon here. *Irys' arms are basically a pair of lances. *They're made for stabbing an opponent so he can do his life-drain dealie. &nbsp;He doesn't need them for grabbing or grasping because that's what those nice prehinsile tentacles can do well, and swinging wide from the shoulder may provide a bit of extra power but a backhand or overhand blow isn't going to concentrate that force nearly so well as a spear-point.

[Tomzilla]

SandwormPhish-

It's from the design of Irys' tentacles which is something like an arrowhead. &nbsp;The tentacle actually meets the armored tip somewhere around halfway up the tip's length, meaning that with the point of impact where it is in the video some part of Irys' flesh would have been exposed to that plasma. &nbsp;Yet the tentacles are later clearly visible and completely undamaged.

This is because it all happened in a split second. Do you think Irys’ tentacles could take the damage if he decided to lay them gently on the ground and allow Gamera to fire at them and not attempt to block them?

No. &nbsp;On the other hand if you stick your hand into the fireplace with the stick then it will, which is essentially the case here.

Not entirely. If I were to stick my hand in the fireplace with the stick for a split second and then pulled it out, then that would be the case. But what would be worse? Holding it in for minutes or taking it out immediately? But an even better question; what is worse, batting away a fireball or feeling its explosive power?

Based on what we usually see in the films this is usually the case except in the case of King Ghidorah when he's doing his patented Ghidorah Head Flop.

On numerous occasions, we’ve seen Godzilla fire his heat ray and hit certain areas of the body. In “Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah” for example, when they first squared off, Godzilla fired his heat ray at the ground and then lifted the beam higher, hitting King Ghidorah’s chest and other body parts. But then again, if Godzilla or any other monster unleashed their ray and immediately could see it being ‘blocked’ by Irys’ tentacles, do you think they’d just keep it in the same spot? No, instinctively they’d move it quick enough to try and hit the actual creature. And it is more then likely that if Irys is shielding himself with his tentacles, then they’d be dealing with an attack that is happening more than just a split second. The ending result would be painful.

As a matter of fact technically you are as it's EM fields that make solids solid and if you're propelling a baseball at sufficient velocity to rise you are overcoming gravity. &nbsp;But there is a bit of a difference between a baseball and a ball of plasma. &nbsp;For one the ball of plasma needs a strong magnetic field to keep it from dispersing immediately into the atmosphere.

There’s no real “control” in this technically. Since if I were to have control, I would bat the ball to wherever I’d like it to go. Sure, you could aim and hit it in that direction, but it is not 100% sure to exactly go in that spot, unless you can see into the future. The only control here, in Irys’ case, is he managed to bat the balls out of his harm’s way.

Actually plasma is a state of highly energetic matter not energy (though if you go down far enough matter and energy are basically the same thing). &nbsp;However to keep plasma from dispersing (i.e. staying in that nice little ball) it must have a magnetic field around it to keep the stuff together (that or some form of magic is involved, which is technically a possibility). &nbsp;To manage that deflect Irys must have either:

A.) Shifted the direction of the magnetic field somehow.

B.) Pierced the magnetic field and imparted sufficient momentum to send the plasma ball away which means direct exposure to the stuff.

Which would lead someone to wonder exactly what those glowing orbs were that were housed inside the metallic tips.

How do you figured considering that they're by all appearances more heavily armored than the tentacle tips.

Because I doubt they too have some sort of electromagnetic ability to manipulate an oncoming attack.

Gamera's positioning put him inside Irys' guard essentially. &nbsp;Plus he may have been a bit on the distracted side what with having had a rather significant number of internal organs forcibly removed.

So if Irys were to receive injuries, those injuries would prove to be a distraction and affect his defensive thinking. Like saying if Irys did try to defend himself from a beam and that beam managed to pulverize the tentacle, injuring it, Irys would be too concentrated on the pain then to brace himself for another attack.

Incorrect, it means his fireballs lack penetration power as they tend to, in most cases, impart their energy into the first object they hit. &nbsp;Irys' beam weapons on the other hand are an example of a weapon with great penetration however their damage is very focused which means it requires greater accuracy to use effectively. &nbsp;Gamera's fireballs however are anything but weak as fireball scalings and comparative performance show.

And what exactly did Gamera’s fireballs hit? Irys’ metallic tips! The very first object they hit. The organic skin of the tentacle that was exposed to the fireball was only exposed to warmth and if the fireball did hit it, then the actual impact would’ve been reduced. Of course, this all happened in a blink of an eye so it is no wonder why the skin of the tentacle had hardly any injuries.

You're putting words in his mouth here as he never claimed those tentacle tips would stop a beam of any firepower level, he simply pointed out that they were capable of withstanding the rather impressive firepower Gamera wields (which tends to put it well above what most Toho monsters aside from a few of the most powerful can bring to bear).

“which tends to put it well above what most Toho monsters aside from a few of the most powerful can bring to bear” – That’s basically saying they’d be able to stop “mostly” any beam of any firepower. You just said so yourself that Gamera’s fireballs literally dwarf the majority of all the Toho monsters’ firepower, which leads the reader to believe that Jeff was saying Irys’ tentacles could in fact stop a beam of any firepower since they did so to Gamera’s fireballs. But if you read that sentence over, you’d feel as if something doesn’t make sense. You’re basically comparing the split second impact of Gamera’s fireballs with a beam of concentrated power that will be going on for a heck of a lot longer than that! So really, that’s not saying much in terms of being able to bat away Gamera’s fireballs and only going head-to-head with its power for a split second.

Why would you expect this behavior? &nbsp;The only monster to do it on a semi-regular basis is King Ghidorah.

I’ve already given an example on Godzilla’s behalf. But then, how many times had the monsters faced a foe who’d try to block their attacks with tentacles? Even they’re instincts would tell them to “shift” directions of their beams.

The connection is between Ayana and Irys (which is like the Gamera/Asagi connection). &nbsp;Ayana wanted vengeance on Gamera and Irys was able to draw strength from her freely as a result.

A quote from the movie:

Nagamine: Asagi, are you still linked with Gamera?
Asagi: No, Ayana is. She’s fighting against Gamera!

That speaks for itself and my argument.

Also, you’d noticed that after Asakura ripped the jewel from Ayana’s neck (the link between her and Gamera), she said something along the lines of: “I, join with the God of Naobi to battle this evil spirit!” and right then and there, Gamera gathered enough strength to pull Irys’ blade out of his gut. Proving there was a connection between Gamera and whoever holds that jewel.

That's because we're talking about a specialized weapon here. &nbsp;Irys' arms are basically a pair of lances. &nbsp;They're made for stabbing an opponent so he can do his life-drain dealie. &nbsp;He doesn't need them for grabbing or grasping because that's what those nice prehinsile tentacles can do well, and swinging wide from the shoulder may provide a bit of extra power but a backhand or overhand blow isn't going to concentrate that force nearly so well as a spear-point.

Which is exactly why Irys doesn’t exactly have the best “hands” in the kaiju kingdom. Irys’ spear options are limited to just stabbing.


I’ve been wondering exactly why you or Jeff hadn’t come up with a defense on Irys’ “EM Manipulating” argument by using the whole: “Irys was able to form plasma fireballs” – which would greatly help your argument. After all, if Irys could wield the same plasma fireballs and control them (as in form the fireballs and the electromagnetic power which surrounds it), then he should possess the same power to temporarily manipulate the same material to knock it away.

However, there is a flaw in what I said above. Irys didn’t gain this ability to until he “absorbed” Gamera’s DNA, which happened after the whole fireball blocking. So either Irys does have EM manipulating abilities or there is something mystical involved…

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 04 2004,05:37)]
Quote[/b] ]This is because it all happened in a split second. Do you think Irys’ tentacles could take the damage if he decided to lay them gently on the ground and allow Gamera to fire at them and not attempt to block them?


We're still talking about exposure to a huge amount of energy even with the briefness of it.

Quote[/b] ]Not entirely. If I were to stick my hand in the fireplace with the stick for a split second and then pulled it out, then that would be the case. But what would be worse? Holding it in for minutes or taking it out immediately? But an even better question; what is worse, batting away a fireball or feeling its explosive power?


If you bat away a fireball you are still exposing yourself to high-energy plasma. &nbsp;The only difference is it doesn't have the added damage of the concussive blast when the thing goes off.

Quote[/b] ]On numerous occasions, we’ve seen Godzilla fire his heat ray and hit certain areas of the body. In “Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah” for example, when they first squared off, Godzilla fired his heat ray at the ground and then lifted the beam higher, hitting King Ghidorah’s chest and other body parts.

The difference here being.. he missed. &nbsp;Somehow he missed and corrected his aim. &nbsp;However you don't see godzilla attempting to shift his beam when it's blocked by Space Godzilla, or when hits to the main body of the Super-X3 prove useless.

Quote[/b] ]But then again, if Godzilla or any other monster unleashed their ray and immediately could see it being ‘blocked’ by Irys’ tentacles, do you think they’d just keep it in the same spot?

Given G's temperment I'd say it could easily happen.

Quote[/b] ]No, instinctively they’d move it quick enough to try and hit the actual creature. And it is more then likely that if Irys is shielding himself with his tentacles, then they’d be dealing with an attack that is happening more than just a split second. The ending result would be painful.


A split second but a much lower amount of energy all told than is packed into one of Gamera's plasma balls.

Quote[/b] ]There’s no real “control” in this technically. Since if I were to have control, I would bat the ball to wherever I’d like it to go. Sure, you could aim and hit it in that direction, but it is not 100% sure to exactly go in that spot, unless you can see into the future. The only control here, in Irys’ case, is he managed to bat the balls out of his harm’s way.

That is due to imperfections in your own perceptions as well as outside factors such as wind resistance, and an EM field gets weaker the farther you extend it so there are limits to what you can do with them away from their generating source. &nbsp;And in Irys' case that was all that was neccesary.

Quote[/b] ]Which would lead someone to wonder exactly what those glowing orbs were that were housed inside the metallic tips.


It'd be helpful if we knew.. but we don't unfortunately.

Quote[/b] ]Because I doubt they too have some sort of electromagnetic ability to manipulate an oncoming attack.

A minute ago you were arguing against Irys having any sort of EM control. &nbsp;And those things are still so heavily constructed they can pierce Gamera's shell so that says something about them.

Quote[/b] ]So if Irys were to receive injuries, those injuries would prove to be a distraction and affect his defensive thinking. Like saying if Irys did try to defend himself from a beam and that beam managed to pulverize the tentacle, injuring it, Irys would be too concentrated on the pain then to brace himself for another attack.

Wow talk about slippery slope. &nbsp;For one ANY kaiju is distracted by injuries, it happens all the time. &nbsp;For another we know Irys has a rather high threshold for pain (counter-attacking soon after the gut-ripping incident plus being able to accurately fire his own beam weapons despite having a plasma jet cutting into his guts). &nbsp;We're talking about Irys after having someone physically reach in and tear out a mass of internal organs. &nbsp;Now I know what it feels like when just one organ goes a bit wonky (which is why I am now sans gall bladder) so I can only imagine what it must feel like having all that extra stuff torn out (and the muscles in front of the wound channel shredded as well)

Quote[/b] ]And what exactly did Gamera’s fireballs hit? Irys’ metallic tips! The very first object they hit. The organic skin of the tentacle that was exposed to the fireball was only exposed to warmth and if the fireball did hit it, then the actual impact would’ve been reduced. Of course, this all happened in a blink of an eye so it is no wonder why the skin of the tentacle had hardly any injuries.


We're talking about a ball of superheated plasma here not a campfire. &nbsp;'Warmth' doesn't begin to cover it.

Quote[/b] ]“which tends to put it well above what most Toho monsters aside from a few of the most powerful can bring to bear” – That’s basically saying they’d be able to stop “mostly” any beam of any firepower.

Thank you for proving my point as nowhere in that sentence does he suggest that Irys could deflect any and all beam weapons. &nbsp;YOU are adding in the 'any power' and 'almost any power' bits yourself by your own admission. &nbsp;He is simply pointing out that the majority of Toho monsters tend to have weaker energy attacks than the Heisei Gamera monsters, which is something that's been shown again and again.

Quote[/b] ]You just said so yourself that Gamera’s fireballs literally dwarf the majority of all the Toho monsters’ firepower, which leads the reader to believe that Jeff was saying Irys’ tentacles could in fact stop a beam of any firepower since they did so to Gamera’s fireballs.

http://sauron.homestead.com/files/scaredkitty.jpg

HOW. &nbsp;Maybe it leads you to believe this but you're practically doing a long jump to that conclusion since somehow you're getting 'Irys can deflect any beam no matter how powerful' from 'Gamera's Fireballs are strong' + 'Irys deflected them'.

Quote[/b] ]But if you read that sentence over, you’d feel as if something doesn’t make sense.

Yes something doesn't, namely your strange conclusion that believing because Irys can deflect Gamera's fireballs Jeff thinks they can deflect any beam.

Quote[/b] ] You’re basically comparing the split second impact of Gamera’s fireballs with a beam of concentrated power that will be going on for a heck of a lot longer than that!

Exactly. &nbsp;The beam spreads its total energy out over the course of it's duration. &nbsp;By contrast something like Gamera's fireballs usually delivers it all at once. &nbsp;As it is it'll take a good bit of firing to match that anyway.



Quote[/b] ]I’ve already given an example on Godzilla’s behalf. But then, how many times had the monsters faced a foe who’d try to block their attacks with tentacles? Even they’re instincts would tell them to “shift” directions of their beams.


Note what I said, 'regular basis'. &nbsp;And Godzilla usually only does it when he's inexplicably hit the ground in front of what he's shooting at for some reason (i.e. he missed and had to correct his aim).

Quote[/b] ]Nagamine: Asagi, are you still linked with Gamera?
Asagi: No, Ayana is. She’s fighting against Gamera!


A statement I blame on ADV since it makes absolutely no sense what with Gamera having already severed his ties to humankind and all the little amulets breaking. &nbsp;The only one in that fight with one of those things was Irys.

Quote[/b] ]Also, you’d noticed that after Asakura ripped the jewel from Ayana’s neck (the link between her and Gamera), she said something along the lines of: “I, join with the God of Naobi to battle this evil spirit!” and right then and there, Gamera gathered enough strength to pull Irys’ blade out of his gut. Proving there was a connection between Gamera and whoever holds that jewel.


This is the same nutty doctor who kidnapped Ayana for her connection to Irys, and who was hanging around with Nihilist Boy.

Quote[/b] ]Which is exactly why Irys doesn’t exactly have the best “hands” in the kaiju kingdom. Irys’ spear options are limited to just stabbing.


The point is he doesn't need his hands for other functions, thus they're designed to do what they need to, namely getting jammed into something.

Quote[/b] ]I’ve been wondering exactly why you or Jeff hadn’t come up with a defense on Irys’ “EM Manipulating” argument by using the whole: “Irys was able to form plasma fireballs” – which would greatly help your argument. After all, if Irys could wield the same plasma fireballs and control them (as in form the fireballs and the electromagnetic power which surrounds it), then he should possess the same power to temporarily manipulate the same material to knock it away.


That would be because that was post Gamera draining and the easy replying argument would have been that he got the ability then. &nbsp;However any way you put it, Irys still has to generate enough force to deflect the ball, and the film shows the end of his tentacle to be inside it (which means either the flesh can take it or he can generate a strong enough shield to block it.. in which case he can do the same to other kaiju weapons like Godzilla's heat beam).

Quote[/b] ]However, there is a flaw in what I said above. Irys didn’t gain this ability to until he “absorbed” Gamera’s DNA, which happened after the whole fireball blocking. So either Irys does have EM manipulating abilities or there is something mystical involved…

A very real possibility considering Irys' nature.

[Tomzilla]

SandwormPhish-
We're still talking about exposure to a huge amount of energy even with the briefness of it.

You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it for you: &quot;Do you think Irys’ tentacles could take the damage if he decided to lay them gently on the ground and allow Gamera to fire at them and not attempt to block them?&quot;

If you bat away a fireball you are still exposing yourself to high-energy plasma. The only difference is it doesn't have the added damage of the concussive blast when the thing goes off.

And the explosion of Gamera's fireballs is what makes them so potent. Which is exactly why Irys knocked them away in the first place. To prevent the fireballs from scoring home and inflicting massive damage. But the thing is, if Irys &quot;can&quot; use some type of EM field or mystical power, then the tentacles aren't really taking in the full fledge of what impact damage the fireballs could inflict.

The difference here being.. he missed. Somehow he missed and corrected his aim. However you don't see godzilla attempting to shift his beam when it's blocked by Space Godzilla, or when hits to the main body of the Super-X3 prove useless.

Why use two examples involving two characters who naturally have the ability to either reflect the heat ray back (or away) or designed to withstand the heat ray in the first place? Because it's a little harder to change beam directions to hit an opponent who can cover most of their whole frontal body or designed to withstand the beam than to just try to avoid a few tentacles.

Given G's temperment I'd say it could easily happen.

It could, then again it could easily not.

A split second but a much lower amount of energy all told than is packed into one of Gamera's plasma balls.

Gamera's fireballs are deadly only because of the explosive power they are capable of. That is why they dwarf most of the other Toho Monster assaults. You are saying that if Irys can knock away Gamera's fireballs and not be damaged, then they could withstand the fireballs if they exploded and enveloped the tentacles completely.

That is due to imperfections in your own perceptions as well as outside factors such as wind resistance, and an EM field gets weaker the farther you extend it so there are limits to what you can do with them away from their generating source. And in Irys' case that was all that was neccesary.

So really, there was no control at all. After all, Irys had no real control of the other elements involved (unless he really does have mystical powers... It could get really confusing if we just decided to make it official and allow Irys to have control over such things). If there is EM field control, then that is all Irys really could do. The wind and gravity is what did the rest. And it would be the same for hitting away a baseball; I have no control over gravity or the wind elements, all I'm doing is just hitting the ball away. Its direction depends of just where and what place it touched on the bat.

A minute ago you were arguing against Irys having any sort of EM control. And those things are still so heavily constructed they can pierce Gamera's shell so that says something about them.

..I do doubt they have some EM control. I was using basic reverse psychology... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But then again, we've seen Godzilla's ray blow off King Ghidorah's neck, ravage Biollante's tentacles, pierce a bloody wound in Destroyah's chest. Heck, we've seen other incarnations of Godzilla do even more.

Wow talk about slippery slope. For one ANY kaiju is distracted by injuries, it happens all the time. For another we know Irys has a rather high threshold for pain (counter-attacking soon after the gut-ripping incident plus being able to accurately fire his own beam weapons despite having a plasma jet cutting into his guts). We're talking about Irys after having someone physically reach in and tear out a mass of internal organs. Now I know what it feels like when just one organ goes a bit wonky (which is why I am now sans gall bladder) so I can only imagine what it must feel like having all that extra stuff torn out (and the muscles in front of the wound channel shredded as well)

I wouldn't really say &quot;ANY&quot; Kaiju is distracted by injuries. There are quite a few who still relentlessly proceed, despite whatever injury they recieve in the process. Now if say another kaiju injured Irys in a way Gamera did, the same thing is likely to happen. But of course, it could easily go the either way. I was just wondering you thought Irys was perfect and even if he suffered a massive wound, he'd be able to get out of it by doing something &quot;mystical&quot;.

We're talking about a ball of superheated plasma here not a campfire. 'Warmth' doesn't begin to cover it.

Odd. So you're saying if we stood right next to the fireball we wouldn't feel any &quot;warmth&quot; from it...? Now, read what you just said and then wonder why there were no real burn injuries to Irys' tentacles in the first place.

Thank you for proving my point as nowhere in that sentence does he suggest that Irys could deflect any and all beam weapons. YOU are adding in the 'any power' and 'almost any power' bits yourself by your own admission. He is simply pointing out that the majority of Toho monsters tend to have weaker energy attacks than the Heisei Gamera monsters, which is something that's been shown again and again.

Well, no use arguing with simple logic. My apologies Jeff.

HOW. Maybe it leads you to believe this but you're practically doing a long jump to that conclusion since somehow you're getting 'Irys can deflect any beam no matter how powerful' from 'Gamera's Fireballs are strong' + 'Irys deflected them'.

Kitty picture is funny...

Anyways...

I'll explain:

Taken from account, this is what has been said-- Gamera's fireballs are more powerful than &quot;most&quot; of the Toho Monsters. Gamera's fireballs were knocked away by Irys' tentacles. Irys' tentacles would then, naturally, knock away the attacks of the Toho Monsters.

Now then, ask anyone on this board and tell them exactly what makes Gamera's fireballs so powerful? See what they say and then ask them another question: What's more destructive; the force of the fireballs or the explosive power of the fireballs? It is true that the fireballs have the explosive power capability &quot;inside&quot;, but did it explode and shower over Irys' tentacles upon impact? No, they were knocked away before it could happen. The reason of why we think Gamera's fireballs are more powerful than most of the Toho monsters is only because of the explosive power--this I would agree with. But do you think the force of Gamera's fireballs (not the explosion) is more destructive than say the force GxM's ray?

Note what I said, 'regular basis'. And Godzilla usually only does it when he's inexplicably hit the ground in front of what he's shooting at for some reason (i.e. he missed and had to correct his aim).

Exactly. So if Godzilla were aiming for Irys and suddenly Irys' tentacles popped up and attempted to block the ray, Godzilla would just naturally move the beam's path and correct his aim.

A statement I blame on ADV since it makes absolutely no sense what with Gamera having already severed his ties to humankind and all the little amulets breaking. The only one in that fight with one of those things was Irys.

I didn't take that line from an ADV copy (I don't even have the ADV one). I took it from my actual subtitled copy.
But is it possible to ask someone who understands Japanese perfectly to translate, just for the heck of it?

This is the same nutty doctor who kidnapped Ayana for her connection to Irys, and who was hanging around with Nihilist Boy.

Everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame--in our nutty doctor's case, she was able to get her 15 seconds of sanity. I don't think it was a coincidence that after she said was she said and Gamera's physical response came into play.

The point is he doesn't need his hands for other functions, thus they're designed to do what they need to, namely getting jammed into something.

Thank you for proving my point. Instead of saying Irys has the best hands, it would be more appropriate to say he is one of the best &quot;grapplers&quot;.

That would be because that was post Gamera draining and the easy replying argument would have been that he got the ability then. However any way you put it, Irys still has to generate enough force to deflect the ball, and the film shows the end of his tentacle to be inside it (which means either the flesh can take it or he can generate a strong enough shield to block it.. in which case he can do the same to other kaiju weapons like Godzilla's heat beam).

Well, you said earlier that the fireball itself doesn't really give off &quot;warmth&quot; and you also said that the first thing Gamera's fireball hits is what recieves the most concussive force--do the math (and I know you can you mathematical lungfish) and really the flesh was in no real danger. For one, the metallic tips are actually bigger than what most people would believe--big enough to swap away Gamera's fireball before it could really get a good grasp on the skin tissue.

A very real possibility considering Irys' nature.

Too bad we only saw Irys once...

By the way...that kitty picture is still funny. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 04 2004,18:56)]
Quote[/b] ]You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it for you: &quot;Do you think Irys’ tentacles could take the damage if he decided to lay them gently on the ground and allow Gamera to fire at them and not attempt to block them?&quot;

That depends on just how powerful the blast effect portion of the fireball is.

Quote[/b] ]And the explosion of Gamera's fireballs is what makes them so potent. Which is exactly why Irys knocked them away in the first place. To prevent the fireballs from scoring home and inflicting massive damage. But the thing is, if Irys &quot;can&quot; use some type of EM field or mystical power, then the tentacles aren't really taking in the full fledge of what impact damage the fireballs could inflict.


Not quite correct. &nbsp;Most of the secondary damage we see from those fireballs is a result of the plasma. &nbsp;The concussive portion just adds an even greater oomph to it. &nbsp;Furthermore if it can use magic or EM fields as a defense it means those tentacles are still shielded to the same degree, the only difference is that it's in the form of a shield rather than physical armoring. &nbsp;However it's also equally possible Irys did just slap the fireball away and had some way of keeping the magnetic field containing the plasma from failing. &nbsp;Plasma is matter after all and can have momentum imparted into it.

Quote[/b] ]Why use two examples involving two characters who naturally have the ability to either reflect the heat ray back (or away) or designed to withstand the heat ray in the first place?

It hardly matters if they are built to withstand it since we're not arguing that. &nbsp;We're arguing the probability of him shifting the beam, and the only time Godzilla really tends to do that with any regularity is when he's aimed badly and hit the ground instead of his target. &nbsp;He didn't try and shift aim on his heat ray against either opponent despite the fact the Super-X3's wings are a clear vulnerable point or looking for any weakness in Spacegodzilla's defense as you claim he will with Irys.

Quote[/b] ]Because it's a little harder to change beam directions to hit an opponent who can cover most of their whole frontal body or designed to withstand the beam than to just try to avoid a few tentacles.


The Super-X3 is armored to withstand the beam, however why does that make you claim it would make it somehow harder for Godzilla to change his aim? &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eyebrow.gif

Quote[/b] ]It could, then again it could easily not.

It seemed to happen quite regularly with Space Godzilla.

Quote[/b] ]Gamera's fireballs are deadly only because of the explosive power they are capable of. That is why they dwarf most of the other Toho Monster assaults. You are saying that if Irys can knock away Gamera's fireballs and not be damaged, then they could withstand the fireballs if they exploded and enveloped the tentacles completely.


Where are you getting this strange idea that the explosion is all that makes Gamera's fireballs deadly? &nbsp;The concussion is there but it's hardly the monstrous force you make it out to be.

Quote[/b] ]So really, there was no control at all. After all, Irys had no real control of the other elements involved (unless he really does have mystical powers... It could get really confusing if we just decided to make it official and allow Irys to have control over such things). If there is EM field control, then that is all Irys really could do. The wind and gravity is what did the rest. And it would be the same for hitting away a baseball; I have no control over gravity or the wind elements, all I'm doing is just hitting the ball away. Its direction depends of just where and what place it touched on the bat.


You are exerting some manner of control however in manipulating this object's relation to those forces. &nbsp;It's not fine control by any stretch of the imagination of course. &nbsp;

Quote[/b] ]..I do doubt they have some EM control. I was using basic reverse psychology... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Confusing the issue by switching stances mid argument? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Quote[/b] ]
But then again, we've seen Godzilla's ray blow off King Ghidorah's neck,

Heisei Ghidorah is however, something of a pansy. &nbsp;Especially considering what incarnation of Godzilla we're talking about here (namely pre-spiral ray which as I recall is the one who's beam power was a bit less than that of a Hyper Gyaos).

Quote[/b] ]
ravage Biollante's tentacles,

Are you forgetting Biollante's extreme vulnerability to that same ray?

Quote[/b] ]
pierce a bloody wound in Destroyah's chest.

Destroyah, who is composed entirely of small, vulnerable micro-organisms. &nbsp;Remember the smaller destroyers were made of the same thing and they were brought down by LAWs and Flamethrowers. &nbsp;Destroyah's big thing is that it's capable of rearranging itself to help deal with damage.

Quote[/b] ]
Heck, we've seen other incarnations of Godzilla do even more.


Like? &nbsp;The thing is most all of your examples don't actually prove all that much on their own since they lack any sort of quantifiable backing.

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't really say &quot;ANY&quot; Kaiju is distracted by injuries. There are quite a few who still relentlessly proceed, despite whatever injury they recieve in the process.

Advancing on the enemy takes little in the way of concentration. &nbsp;And I'm fairly certain you'd have trouble picking out a monster who attacked after that sort of injury.

Quote[/b] ]Now if say another kaiju injured Irys in a way Gamera did, the same thing is likely to happen. But of course, it could easily go the either way. I was just wondering you thought Irys was perfect and even if he suffered a massive wound, he'd be able to get out of it by doing something &quot;mystical&quot;.

When have I ever claimed Irys was perfect? &nbsp;You're putting words in people's mouths again.

Quote[/b] ]Odd. So you're saying if we stood right next to the fireball we wouldn't feel any &quot;warmth&quot; from it...? Now, read what you just said and then wonder why there were no real burn injuries to Irys' tentacles in the first place.


No, I'm saying that 'warmth' is an understatement on the order of referring to a monsoon as a light shower.

Quote[/b] ]Kitty picture is funny...


Yes. &nbsp;Yes it is.

Quote[/b] ]Taken from account, this is what has been said-- Gamera's fireballs are more powerful than &quot;most&quot; of the Toho Monsters. Gamera's fireballs were knocked away by Irys' tentacles. Irys' tentacles would then, naturally, knock away the attacks of the Toho Monsters.

Nobody's said knock away to my knowledge. &nbsp;Block, yes, but deflecting a beam is different than stopping a single blast. &nbsp;Some of the beam will be deflected of course, Conservation of Energy says it has to go somewhere and materials can only take in additional energy so fast. &nbsp;However I don't believe anybody's suggested he'd simply slap the beam aside.

Quote[/b] ]Now then, ask anyone on this board and tell them exactly what makes Gamera's fireballs so powerful? See what they say and then ask them another question: What's more destructive; the force of the fireballs or the explosive power of the fireballs? It is true that the fireballs have the explosive power capability &quot;inside&quot;, but did it explode and shower over Irys' tentacles upon impact? No, they were knocked away before it could happen. The reason of why we think Gamera's fireballs are more powerful than most of the Toho monsters is only because of the explosive power--this I would agree with. But do you think the force of Gamera's fireballs (not the explosion) is more destructive than say the force GxM's ray?

Look, there is simply no possible way the concussive force could be supplying most of that killing power. &nbsp;It ADDS to it yes, but it by no means exceeds the kind of power we're talking about with a sphere of high-energy plasma. &nbsp;If it did the blast waves neccesary would have leveled most of hte city Irys was standing in. &nbsp;The reason they're said to be more powerful than those of Toho monsters is that in quantifiable instances (such as fireball scaling) they are shown to be.

Quote[/b] ]Exactly. So if Godzilla were aiming for Irys and suddenly Irys' tentacles popped up and attempted to block the ray, Godzilla would just naturally move the beam's path and correct his aim.


Why? &nbsp;He's still hitting his opponent and that typically seems to be enough to satisfy him in regards to his aim. &nbsp;When he runs into highly resistant enemies such as Spacegodzilla, Mechagodzilla, or the Super-X's he doesn't typically bother with sweeping the beam for weakpoints (like say sweeping the beam up to hit them in the face instead of in the chest). &nbsp;Hell look at the example of the Super-X2 where he continues to spray at the fire mirror incurring damage on himself instead of trying to blast it somewhere else.

Quote[/b] ]I didn't take that line from an ADV copy (I don't even have the ADV one). I took it from my actual subtitled copy.
But is it possible to ask someone who understands Japanese perfectly to translate, just for the heck of it?


Ah, then I'll check my ADV copy, I might be remembering the line from my own subtitled one.. it really doesn't seem to make much sense though for Ayana to have a link with Gamera, at least not within the boundaries we've been shown for such phenomena.

Quote[/b] ]Everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame--in our nutty doctor's case, she was able to get her 15 seconds of sanity. I don't think it was a coincidence that after she said was she said and Gamera's physical response came into play.


I'll look it up, but I'm fairly certain she was trying (unsucessfully) to control Irys.

Quote[/b] ]Thank you for proving my point. Instead of saying Irys has the best hands, it would be more appropriate to say he is one of the best &quot;grapplers&quot;.

Or the best hands for what they're made for. &nbsp;They're not very versatile (but then most Kaiju have arms so stubby their hands are nearly useless anyway) but they do what they're made for extremely well.

Quote[/b] ]Well, you said earlier that the fireball itself doesn't really give off &quot;warmth&quot; and you also said that the first thing Gamera's fireball hits is what recieves the most concussive force--do the math (and I know you can you mathematical lungfish) and really the flesh was in no real danger. For one, the metallic tips are actually bigger than what most people would believe--big enough to swap away Gamera's fireball before it could really get a good grasp on the skin tissue.


I corrected your misinterpretation of my words above. &nbsp;And I said that TYPICALLY whatever gets hit by the fireball tends to get most of the fireballs energy dumped into it (I was including both concussion and plasma burns in that btw). &nbsp;And if you look at the Gamera films as a whole that is typically what happens, the fireball hits something and blows up.

Though upon review earlier I think I've noticed a definite resemblance in how the fireballs looked after being deflected by Irys and after being deflected (the one that got split) by Legion's shield.

However the point still stands that Irys, whether through magic, magnetism, or physical force was able to somehow impart sufficient momentum to change the course of Gamera's fireballs. &nbsp;Now magic is the trickiest of the bunch since we don't know all that much. &nbsp;Magnetism means he's got electromagnetic shielding, which means that logically it would be just as effective against certain energy attacks such as Godzilla's radiation-based blasts, and other attacks that can be influenced easily by electromagnetic forces while being useless against others (such as light-based weaponry).

[Tomzilla]

SandwormPhish-

That depends on just how powerful the blast effect portion of the fireball is.

Oh, well at its best then.


It hardly matters if they are built to withstand it since we're not arguing that. We're arguing the probability of him shifting the beam, and the only time Godzilla really tends to do that with any regularity is when he's aimed badly and hit the ground instead of his target. He didn't try and shift aim on his heat ray against either opponent despite the fact the Super-X3's wings are a clear vulnerable point or looking for any weakness in Spacegodzilla's defense as you claim he will with Irys.

You're missing the point of what I meant. Super X-3 and Space Godzilla literally could guard their bodies with armor or a shield from Godzilla's ray. If Godzilla fought Irys, then all that would be attempting to block Godzilla's ray would be tentacles. No, not just tentacles, the metallic tips. There is more of an option for Godzilla to shoot and succeed in hitting, since it would be just the tentacles attempting to block the ray.

Allow me to show you what I mean by using pictures, since pictures speak louder than words.


http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/pic.JPG

Picture 1: Super X-3

Within the red circle that I provided is the area Godzilla's beam proved ineffective against. Now, the reason I didn't circle the whole thing is because I was not sure if the wings were armored (which I think they are). Just if you were a giant radioactive dinosaur, what would you fire at? The big part that would be easier to hit or the little thing. Godzilla has enough IQ to realize the ray proved ineffective, in yet what could he do? In his condition, I think it would be hard to exploit any weaknesses if you're about to blow up and/or melt. Ever been really sick and was unlucky enough to experience a rising temperature? For example, your temperature was around 105 degrees. Could you think properly?


http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/pic2.JPG

Picture 2: Space Godzilla

Like the first picture, within the red circle is the areas of where Godzilla beam was ineffective--mostly because of the shield. (I bring up the shield because that is what this theory is based on--Irys' metallic tips possessing some sort of electromagnetic shield). But even without the shield, Godzilla's beam had not real damaging effect. And it is not known if Godzilla's ray would've inflicted any injury to the shoulder crystals (that's debateable I guess). But back to the point, with the shield up there really was no other place for Godzilla to strike. The options were limited.


http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/pic3.JPG

Picture 3: Irys

I circled the metallic tips, which you and Jeff have speculated to give off an electromagnetic shield that could repel Godzilla's ray. Now, you've assumed that if Godzilla fired his heat beam and Irys' tentacles attempted to intercept the beam and somehow successfully blocked it, then Godzilla would just fire in the same spot and not attempt to move, since he did the same thing with Super X-3 and Space Godzilla. But what's the difference here? Godzilla has a heck of a lot more places to pick and fire at
.

The Super-X3 is armored to withstand the beam, however why does that make you claim it would make it somehow harder for Godzilla to change his aim?

It wouldn't make it harder to change his aim, it would just make it harder to inflict damage. There would be no point in changing your aim and attempt to hit the target in another spot if it was designed to withstand such damage.


Heisei Ghidorah is however, something of a pansy. Especially considering what incarnation of Godzilla we're talking about here (namely pre-spiral ray which as I recall is the one who's beam power was a bit less than that of a Hyper Gyaos).

Truth be told, Hyper Gyaos' beam power dwarfs a lot of monsters, not just Godzilla. Pansy or not, able to blow off a neck is still impressive and it was done to show this newly awakened Godzilla was not something to underestimate.


Are you forgetting Biollante's extreme vulnerability to that same ray?

Somewhere along the lines, Irys probably had a vulnerability to Gamera's fireballs. It could be possible it was able to adapt and evolve to counter Gamera's primary weapon. But the point I was making is Biollante's tentacles were strong enough to pierce Godzilla's hide in yet Godzilla's ray managed to rip them apart. I think if Godzilla were to hit one of Irys' tentacles, the fleshy part, it would be quite painful.


Destroyah, who is composed entirely of small, vulnerable micro-organisms. Remember the smaller destroyers were made of the same thing and they were brought down by LAWs and Flamethrowers. Destroyah's big thing is that it's capable of rearranging itself to help deal with damage.

Hmmm... I wonder if the Baby Irys could've survived those very same flamethrowers and automatic weapons? Point is it took three spiral blasts to break the skin, proving Destroyah's hide is really thick.


Like? The thing is most all of your examples don't actually prove all that much on their own since they lack any sort of quantifiable backing.

Well, I'm glad not all of my examples don't prove all that much. Meaning some do! http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Might as well bring up an example you, yourself, showed: GxM's &quot;uber-powerful&quot; ray - in your opinion, Phish, what do you think would happen if GxM unleashed his ray upon the metallic tips of Irys' tentacles?


Advancing on the enemy takes little in the way of concentration. And I'm fairly certain you'd have trouble picking out a monster who attacked after that sort of injury.

Gamera would be a good example. Remember his fight with Legion? Legion impaled the poor turtle, causing thousands of gallons of blood to pour out of Gammy at the air-field. Even when Gamera took laser whips going through his very body, he still continued to fight. It took an explosion on par with Hiroshima to take the fight out of him... (Not really, I think he would've got right back up and continued to fight, if he weren't unconscious...)


When have I ever claimed Irys was perfect? You're putting words in people's mouths again.

Hardly, I actually did a typo. I'm not perfect. :P

I meant to say: &quot;I was just wondering if you thought Irys was perfect and even if he suffered a massive wound, he'd be able to get out of it by doing something &quot;mystical&quot;.&quot;

Your earlier posts gave the feeling that you think Irys is perfect. I know you don't really think that, just you've made it sound that way.


Yes. Yes it is.

Reminds me of my cat. Now there's a feline you don't want angry... She could beat Irys, Godzilla or anything for that matter.


Nobody's said knock away to my knowledge. Block, yes, but deflecting a beam is different than stopping a single blast. Some of the beam will be deflected of course, Conservation of Energy says it has to go somewhere and materials can only take in additional energy so fast. However I don't believe anybody's suggested he'd simply slap the beam aside.

Ah, well I guess that's the impression I recieved. I quote one of Jeff's comments: &quot;that he could physically block the beam with his tentacles deflecting it and then use the EM field control to effect the degree of deflection even more.&quot; - Of course, if Irys could do that, he would've probably chucked the fireballs right back at Gamera or tried. Just I can't picture tentacles blocking a beam and deflecting it away.


Look, there is simply no possible way the concussive force could be supplying most of that killing power. It ADDS to it yes, but it by no means exceeds the kind of power we're talking about with a sphere of high-energy plasma. If it did the blast waves neccesary would have leveled most of hte city Irys was standing in. The reason they're said to be more powerful than those of Toho monsters is that in quantifiable instances (such as fireball scaling) they are shown to be.

In my own personal opinion, Gamera's fireballs remind me of meteors. (Or better yet a meteorite.) Imagine a meteorite plummeting into Earth with enough power to eradicate all life. Now here we have the impact, truly dangerous and it must really hurt Earth. I bet its cursing and wished the meteor hit the Moon instead. Next the massive explosion begins to spread across the Earth and well I'm sure you can figure out the rest. (What, with the shockwaves and etc...)

While the impact caused the most damage, the widespread chaos it caused was more destructive.


Why? He's still hitting his opponent and that typically seems to be enough to satisfy him in regards to his aim. When he runs into highly resistant enemies such as Spacegodzilla, Mechagodzilla, or the Super-X's he doesn't typically bother with sweeping the beam for weakpoints (like say sweeping the beam up to hit them in the face instead of in the chest). Hell look at the example of the Super-X2 where he continues to spray at the fire mirror incurring damage on himself instead of trying to blast it somewhere else.

Why bring up opponents who could naturally counter Godzilla's beam in areas that take up the majority part of their bodies/forms?


Ah, then I'll check my ADV copy, I might be remembering the line from my own subtitled one.. it really doesn't seem to make much sense though for Ayana to have a link with Gamera, at least not within the boundaries we've been shown for such phenomena.

I think the link between Ayana and Irys was telekinetic. They seem drawn to each other...either telekinetically or spiritually. It would make more sense if the jewel was a connection between Ayana and Irys. It could be possible that that jewel could connect people with more than one other creature?


I'll look it up, but I'm fairly certain she was trying (unsucessfully) to control Irys.

That would make sense. Heck, her unsuccessful attempt to control Irys may have distracted him to allow Gamera to pull the blade out of his stomach in the first place. Ugh, now I'm split in between.


Or the best hands for what they're made for. They're not very versatile (but then most Kaiju have arms so stubby their hands are nearly useless anyway) but they do what they're made for extremely well.

They're just there to stab, suck dry and move on. In my eyes, the best hands could do more than just that. Monsters like King Kong hold the spot as the monsters with the best hands.


I corrected your misinterpretation of my words above. And I said that TYPICALLY whatever gets hit by the fireball tends to get most of the fireballs energy dumped into it (I was including both concussion and plasma burns in that btw). And if you look at the Gamera films as a whole that is typically what happens, the fireball hits something and blows up.

True, but in this case, it would seem what you said happened. The metallic tips I assume must've been very hot... The flesh, on the other hand may have been exposed, didn't recieve the full damage the metallic parts did.


Though upon review earlier I think I've noticed a definite resemblance in how the fireballs looked after being deflected by Irys and after being deflected (the one that got split) by Legion's shield.

I'd be happy to see more of what you think of this.


However the point still stands that Irys, whether through magic, magnetism, or physical force was able to somehow impart sufficient momentum to change the course of Gamera's fireballs. Now magic is the trickiest of the bunch since we don't know all that much. Magnetism means he's got electromagnetic shielding, which means that logically it would be just as effective against certain energy attacks such as Godzilla's radiation-based blasts, and other attacks that can be influenced easily by electromagnetic forces while being useless against others (such as light-based weaponry).

Or Irys was created to destroy Gamera incase he went out of control. Would make sense... Gamera's creators created Gyaos and they went out of control. So they created Gamera but in an attempt not to repeat history, they could've created a Gamera-Assassin. Makes you wonder if they made a Irys killer.

But besides that, if Irys' tentacles blocked Godzilla's ray, I don't think Godzilla would just stand there and fire in the same spot. I don't think Irys has total control and the ray would probably do exactly what it did when it hit Space Godzilla's shield--go all over the place. Since the beam itself would be heading towards Irys, parts of the beam could still get by and strike the Mutated Gyaos.

By the way, Phish, stop giving me a headache! *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kent]

Quote[/b] ]And Irys is hardly a poor HTH fighter. In pure Physical Strength, he is extremely powerful. Remember G2, Gamera physically was able to hold Legion in place at the airport allowing the planes to get away, Gamera lost minimal ground in that battle. Irys on the other hand, physically pushed around a more powerful version of Gamera. Gamera never even slowed Irys's advance. And you might want to take note that Irys has some of the most useful arms of any Kaiju. They are very much like a humans with the exception that the hands and forearm are replaced by armored claws that have a extendable forearm blade.


He did push around Gamera, but you know what? Gamera wasn't even trying to fight Irys. Irys impaled him, then Gamera was walking backwards for a few minutes until they hit the train station. Irys followed as well. And of course he couldn't slow Irys' advance. You couldn't if you had like sword stuck through you.
His hands aren't anything like human hands. Take a look at Tomzilla's explanation that is right after yours.

Quote[/b] ]then I suggest that you dont bet on any boxing matches ever.

I have bet on three of them with a few friends. And you wanna know something? I am 3-0! http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Black16]

Mr. Phish said at some point:
Exactly. &nbsp;The beam spreads its total energy out over the course of it's duration. &nbsp;By contrast something like Gamera's fireballs usually delivers it all at once. &nbsp;As it is it'll take a good bit of firing to match that anyway.

I just wanted to point out that Phish is incorrect to say that a plasma-based explosion would deliver all of the attacks energy at once. &nbsp;When the EM source within Gamera’s balls fails the charged-particles that compose the plasma would naturally expand outward in a roughly spherical pattern.

The concussive force is provided by the actual mass of the particles as well as the blast wave produced by the rapidly expanding plasma. &nbsp;The heat damage is caused by the actual particles themselves colliding with an object and (usually) burning a hole through it.

Thus, when a plasma fireball strikes a target it will only deal, at best, slightly under one-half of the total amount of heat energy and force. &nbsp;Though the displacement (blast) wave would be slightly more constant, the number of particles one would come in contact with would rapidly diminish with distance from the epicenter. &nbsp;Thus, the amount of heat damage caused would also rapidly diminish with distance.

Also of importance. &nbsp;I don’t believe that the explosion that we see Irys’ tendril inside is the main blast from the fireball, but rather some plasmatic material that was “knocked loose” when Irys whacked the thing away. &nbsp;We see the primary explosions take place in the background. &nbsp;Thus, though Irys has some defense against the plasma his/her tendrils were not exposed to anywhere near the full force of a plasma fireball and can not be used as a indicator of a high degree of resistance.

*waves hand about*

Ok, back to your discussion.

[Black16]

Ummm… Pretty much that Gamera’s fireballs only hit stuff with at most half their power and get weaker the further something is from where they explode.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 04 2004,03:19)]What were you watching? After knocking the fireballs away and allowing them to plumet into the ground to explode, Irys' tentacles were well out of reach of whatever damage the explosions could cause.
This.........

Irys 2A (http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irys2a.jpg)

and this.......

Irys 5A (http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irys5a.jpg)

The question now is what were you watching?

Quote[/b] ]So I guess if I were to hold a stick up to a fireplace, my hand would be suffering the same amount of burn damage as the stick itself? No. My hand, however, would be bathed by the heat. But there's a difference between being bathed by the heat and actually touching its source, i.e. fire.

That might work if you were using a correct analogy. Try holding a stick of dynamite in your hand and letting it go off. Bet you wont be to worried about that heat when the force of that explosion shatters your hand and arm.

Quote[/b] ]Someone has been watching too much DragonBall Z. You're also assuming whoever is discharging the ray itself would be willing to keep the blast in the same spot.

Nope, dont watch DBZ, its utter crap. Your also assuming that they could move the beam faster than Irys can move his tentacles, which I highly doubt. There is also noting stopping Irys from sending a tentacle right down the center of the beam and piercing the attacking Kaiju through his open mouth.

Quote[/b] ]So I guess if someone were to throw a baseball at me and I knocked it away with my bat, I have some form of control over EM fields and gravity? I don't understand something, first you're stating Irys' tentacles are strong enough to withstand the full fury of Gamera's plasma fireballs (I mean the organic parts) but then go off and mention the reason Irys' tentacles survived in the first place is because they have some sort of EM control? It is true that Gamera's fireballs are plasma based and as we all know, plasma is also a form of electromagnetic energy (which is why Legion was able to withstand the fireballs) but just because something was able to bat them away doesn't mean they can control EM fields. Like you said, this is only an assumption of yours. I couldn't agree more.

Well why dont you try hitting something with a bat that will explode upon contact and get back to me on that.

You see Gameras plasma balls have always exploded upon contact with something. The first time you ever saw this not happen was against Legion when she caught one with her EM Shield. The next time you see the plasma balls not explode is when you see Irys knock them away. Now what holds Gameras plasma balls together, an EM field. What would prevent the EM field holding the plasma balls together from erupting? Another EM field to counter the one surrounding the plasma ball.

Quote[/b] ]The only problem with your theory is it would be hard for Irys to do this. The only things that would really reach to try and attempt to do what you just suggested would be his spears. The actual metallic arms would be unable to reach each other and if they were able to, then wouldn't provide much protection. And of course the spears would be decimated in the process. Also, Irys didn't exactly do this to try and fend off Gamera's plasma fist. Yes, I understand Gamera was right next to him, but if another creature were to fire their beam, it would go really fast. A lot faster than Gamera's plasma fist slamming into Irys' gut...

You have seen Irys right Tom. That armor plating is extremely durable, it would take alot to destroy those forearm blades. Those forearms are also very much like shields in the way they are shaped, Irys wouldnt even really need to bring them together, take a look, their pretty wide on the forearm.

Irys (http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irysa.jpg)

Quote[/b] ]Good luck with that.

Dont need any luck.

Quote[/b] ]I'll try to explain something. I don't think and never will in a million years that if Gamera were to grab one of Irys' tentacles, hold it up to his maw and fire his fireball that the skin tissue of Irys' tentacle would be able to withstand it--and not be blown apart. You have to remember, Irys was knocking those fireballs away in half a second. Hardly being exposed to the true destructive power those fireballs possess. Gamera's fireballs succeeded in only breaking through a skyscraper and then exploding right behind it (the collision between the building and Gamera's fireball was enough to cause it to drop and stop its searing path). Which means the fireballs don't pack that much force.

See the pictures above that blow your theory all to hell. Or are you still suggesting that the tentacles werent within the explosion. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]You see, Irys would need to keep his tentacles in the same spot to withstand a beam of concentrated power and pray his opponent would just keep the beam there. And even if that were to happen, you'd basically be saying that since Irys' metallic tips were able to withstand a fireball for a split second then it could take on a beam a heck of a lot longer, no matter how powerful it is...

And why couldnt he keep his tentacles in the same spot if he wanted to, he seems to have pretty fine control over them. And iv'e yet to see you prove that his Armor is weak, just because you think it is doesnt mean so. From the film I would say Irys's armor and Gamera's plasma balls are pretty darn strong.

Quote[/b] ]Also, if say Godzilla were to charge up and fire his heat ray at Irys--do you think Irys would try to &quot;knock it away&quot;? What I mean is...knocking it away would mean the movement of the tentacle itself, thus exposing the organic part of the tentacle. I think Godzilla and other monsters who are capable of beam attacks can fire the beam faster and direct it to other parts of Irys' body--faster than the movement of his tentacles.

You have seen Godzilla movies before havent you. Godzilla in no way is capable of firing his beam faster than Irys can move his tentacles, its not even close. Besides, almost every time Godzilla fires his beam it hits the ground first and he draws it forward to his target. Sorry, but Irys is light years faster with his tentacles than Goji is with his beam.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know how many times I've said this. In Gamera 3, Asagi even said that Gamera was WEAKER in his fight against Irys. She said Ayana was connected with Gamera and was fighting against him. As we all know, Gamera had always drawn strength from the human who was connected with him and it had always helped. If you do the math with what she said, you'd see that it made sense and was true.

That still doesnt change the fact that G3 Gamera was still the strongest of the Heisei Gamera's. Irys WAS more powerful than him, thats why he was beating him silly the entire movie.

Quote[/b] ]They are far from being the most useful arms of any kaiju. You want to know why? Because the only direction Irys can move his arms is forward. The spears extending their lengths is the only thing that could attach itself to another monster's hide. Irys can't swing them, he can't really grapple with an opponent unless they have already impaled another monster. Luckily those spears were able to extend, because if they couldn't, then those arms would be useless.

Sorry but your way off on that one Tom. Irys's upper arm, from shoulder to elbow, goes all the way down to his waist which then meets his forearm. Which makes his upper arm longer than a human arm, you might want to note that your arm from shoulder to elbow only reaches to the mid point on your torso.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 04 2004,05:37)]The connection is between Ayana and Irys (which is like the Gamera/Asagi connection). *Ayana wanted vengeance on Gamera and Irys was able to draw strength from her freely as a result.

A quote from the movie:

Nagamine: Asagi, are you still linked with Gamera?
Asagi: No, Ayana is. She’s fighting against Gamera!

That speaks for itself and my argument.

Also, you’d noticed that after Asakura ripped the jewel from Ayana’s neck (the link between her and Gamera), she said something along the lines of: “I, join with the God of Naobi to battle this evil spirit!” and right then and there, Gamera gathered enough strength to pull Irys’ blade out of his gut. Proving there was a connection between Gamera and whoever holds that jewel.
Well since you guys have gotten mostly everything else covered between you two, I will just address this one specific thing.

The jewel that Ayana has belongs to Irys, it doesnt belong to Gamera.

That line is screwed up. But then its a dub so its expected to have mistakes. Hell GMK had the humans cheering when Ghidorah got hit with the D-03.

Everything I have, from books to figures calls it &quot;Irys's Jewel.&quot; And yes I do have an Irys Jewel. It was released with the Iwakura/Orion Gamera series 2 figures, for some strange reason it came with Majin, go figure.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (kent @ April 04 2004,23:29)]He did push around Gamera, but you know what? Gamera wasn't even trying to fight Irys. Irys impaled him, then Gamera was walking backwards for a few minutes until they hit the train station. Irys followed as well. And of course he couldn't slow Irys' advance. You couldn't if you had like sword stuck through you.
Gamera wasnt trying to fight Irys? Hello why do you think he was there? He wasnt selling popcorn.

The reason he was backing up was because Irys was making him back up. Or did Gamera just decide that it would be cool to back through the station just for the fun of it.

Oh and getting speared like he did is called losing in HTH combat.

Quote[/b] ]His hands aren't anything like human hands. Take a look at Tomzilla's explanation that is right after yours.

Pay attention to what you read. I said his ARMS were like a humans. Meaning his upper arm starts at the shoulder and goes down to his waist where the elbow is, which then connects to the forearm which ends in claws and the forearm blade. I never said his hands were like a humans.

Now kids lets look at an actual picture of Irys and not a toy picture.

Irys Stat (http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irysstat.jpg)

Notice the upper arm goes from the shoulder to the waist, that alone gives more range of movement than the human arm as our upper arm only goes from shoulder to mid torso.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Black16 @ April 05 2004,00:05)]
Quote[/b] ]I just wanted to point out that Phish is incorrect to say that a plasma-based explosion would deliver all of the attacks energy at once. &nbsp;When the EM source within Gamera’s balls fails the charged-particles that compose the plasma would naturally expand outward in a roughly spherical pattern.

True but the ball isn't all that big. &nbsp;It won't be quite a simultaneous impact but it's close enough for government work.

Quote[/b] ]Thus, when a plasma fireball strikes a target it will only deal, at best, slightly under one-half of the total amount of heat energy and force. &nbsp;Though the displacement (blast) wave would be slightly more constant, the number of particles one would come in contact with would rapidly diminish with distance from the epicenter. &nbsp;Thus, the amount of heat damage caused would also rapidly diminish with distance.


Perhaps 'releases all at once' would have been a better choice of words in this instance. &nbsp;I'm not sure the explanation on the Inverse-Square law was all that neccesary, it's pretty much a given that the farther you farther you are from the epicenter of a blast the less energy you're exposed to.

Quote[/b] ]Also of importance. &nbsp;I don’t believe that the explosion that we see Irys’ tendril inside is the main blast from the fireball, but rather some plasmatic material that was “knocked loose” when Irys whacked the thing away. &nbsp;We see the primary explosions take place in the background. &nbsp;Thus, though Irys has some defense against the plasma his/her tendrils were not exposed to anywhere near the full force of a plasma fireball and can not be used as a indicator of a high degree of resistance.


That would seem to indicate movement by physical impactor to me, that or if we keep running with the magnetic idea possibly Irys slapping on another one after the tentacle caused the field gamera generated to breach.

[Saruman]

Tomzilla
Quote[/b] ]I circled the metallic tips, which you and Jeff have speculated to give off an electromagnetic shield that could repel Godzilla's ray. Now, you've assumed that if Godzilla fired his heat beam and Irys' tentacles attempted to intercept the beam and somehow successfully blocked it, then Godzilla would just fire in the same spot and not attempt to move, since he did the same thing with Super X-3 and Space Godzilla. But what's the difference here? Godzilla has a heck of a lot more places to pick and fire at.

I think your misunderstanding what I was saying. Irys isnt creating an EM shield with the tentacles. Hes creating a counter field that prevents Gameras plasma balls from exploding upon contact with the tentacles, which allows Irys to bat them away. But as you see in the film, Irys also bats them away and explodes them with another tentacle. This is why even against a continous beam, I believe that Irys would beable to either block or deflect most of it with his tentacles. Because the EM field he would generate would block the EM field surrounding the beam, preventing it from unleashing its power, just like with Gameras plasma balls.

And with the Godzilla example about him moving his beam to hit another spot, I cant agree with that. Godzilla very rarely learns from his mistakes. Take the Super X 2, he just kept firing his beam. Take SMG2, he just kept firing his beam. Take SG, he just kept firing his beam. Take the Super X III, he just kept firing his beam. I love Goji as much as anyone, but hes not usually the brightest bulb in the pack. And Irys can move his tentacles so much faster than Goji can fire his beam that it isnt even funny.

[Tomzilla]

Saruman-
This.........

Irys 2A

and this.......

Irys 5A

The question now is what were you watching?

Jeff, re-read what I clearly wrote above. I said: &quot;What were you watching? After knocking the fireballs away and allowing them to plumet into the ground to explode, Irys' tentacles were well out of reach of whatever damage the explosions could cause.&quot;
By the way, I looked at those pictures and you won't believe what I was watching:

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/Irys.JPG

Top Picture-

This proved to be the hardest. But as you can see, I was able to change the pic to black and white so I could see better. I could faintly see the two tentacles almost crossing the other (it's possible they are). And low and behold, they are not enveloped at all. If they were, I would not have been able to see those tentacles at all. What you see above is what happened after the fireball was knocked away.

Bottom Picture-

Now this was the easiest of the two. I don't know exactly how you came to the conclusion that those tentacles are &quot;inside&quot; the flames. For one, as you can see, I was kind enough to also draw exactly where the tentacles are and show they are quite visible. Also, I think you might want to know, the tentacle on the left is not making contact with that fireball at all. Because I just re-watched that scene and it is, in fact, the one on the right that just finished swatting that sucker away. I doubt Irys would be bold enough to send two tentacles at one fireball.

The reason of why we saw the fireball almost implode in mid-air is that I assume Irys' tentacles knocked one of the fireballs so hard it nearly caused the impact to occur. After all, if the fireball really did explode in mid-air, then there'd be no reason for it to explode &quot;again&quot; when it hit the ground afterwards.


That might work if you were using a correct analogy. Try holding a stick of dynamite in your hand and letting it go off. Bet you wont be to worried about that heat when the force of that explosion shatters your hand and arm.

You do realize that when dynamite is ignited, it burns extremely rapidly and produces a large amount of hot gas in the process. The hot gas expands very rapidly and applies pressure. Thing is, this is quite the opposite with Gamera's fireballs. Since after swatting those fireballs away, they didn't explode.


Nope, dont watch DBZ, its utter crap. Your also assuming that they could move the beam faster than Irys can move his tentacles, which I highly doubt. There is also noting stopping Irys from sending a tentacle right down the center of the beam and piercing the attacking Kaiju through his open mouth.

Your assuming that the attacker's beam isn't as fast as Irys' tentacles. Watch the kaiju movies and time just how long it takes for a beam to leave a monster's mouth and hit its target and compare with the time Gamera fired his fireballs and having them knocked away. Of course, keep in mind, Gamera was up in the sky. Irys had all the time he needed to get ready to block.

I don't think the flesh of Irys' tentacle could withstand being completely enveloped by a beam if it were to go right through it towards the kaiju. Irys isn't that foolish.


Well why dont you try hitting something with a bat that will explode upon contact and get back to me on that.

I will this 4th of July. I'll ask some to take a firecracker or a little fire work and throw it at me, and I'll bat it away. We'll see what happens. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


You see Gameras plasma balls have always exploded upon contact with something. The first time you ever saw this not happen was against Legion when she caught one with her EM Shield. The next time you see the plasma balls not explode ie when you see Irys knock them away. Now what holds Gameras plasma balls together, an EM field. What would prevent the EM field holding the plasma balls together from erupting? Another EM field to counter the one surrounding the plasma ball.

Which didn't happen--if it did, then we would never have seen the ground alive with fire. The fireballs didn't explode in mid-air, if they did then they some how managed to reform and fall to the ground. *


You have seen Irys right Tom. That armor plating is extremely durable, it would take alot to destroy those forearm blades. Those forearms are also very much like shields in the way they are shaped, Irys wouldnt even really need to bring them together, take a look, their pretty wide on the forearm.

Irys

That would probably convince someone if they depended on just a side view.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/kaijustats/graphics/irys/irys.jpg

Now here's a better view!

What do we have here to look at? If you'd look closely, you'd see Irys' arms aren't that long. If they tried, right now, to be held up and defend his chest, it wouldn't provide much protection. Because the metal shafts around his hands aren't exactly that wide. And when we saw Irys stab Gamera, ever wondered why Irys didn't just raise his arms up and drill the spear through Gamera's face? Because it would be abnormally difficult for Irys to lift it any higher in the first place! Why else do you think the blades were made to extend in lengths?

See the pictures above that blow your theory all to hell. Or are you still suggesting that the tentacles werent within the explosion.

Guess what Jeff, my theory just got kicked out of Hell and was reassigned to reality! They weren't within that explosion, only &quot;near&quot; it. Yes, there's a difference. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


And why couldnt he keep his tentacles in the same spot if he wanted to, he seems to have pretty fine control over them. And iv'e yet to see you prove that his Armor is weak, just because you think it is doesnt mean so. From the film I would say Irys's armor and Gamera's plasma balls are pretty darn strong.

The question isn't why couldn't he keep in the tentacles in the same spot, it's why would he want to if his opponent would change the direction of his beam to avoid the tentacles if they somehow by some miracle prove to be a barrier? By the way, when in the movie was Irys' armor attacked? Besides the military assaults and that dagger that was &quot;suppose&quot; to do something.


You have seen Godzilla movies before havent you. Godzilla in no way is capable of firing his beam faster than Irys can move his tentacles, its not even close. Besides, almost every time Godzilla fires his beam it hits the ground first and he draws it forward to his target. Sorry, but Irys is light years faster with his tentacles than Goji is with his beam.

Do what I suggested above and time. You also might as well watch almost every Godzilla movie and come back to me explaining that Godzilla had almost every time fired at the ground first....


That still doesnt change the fact that G3 Gamera was still the strongest of the Heisei Gamera's. Irys WAS more powerful than him, thats why he was beating him silly the entire movie.

He was the strongest, but he was at a disadvantage. It's like taking a Football linemen, having him run the whole day until the point he's tired and dehydrated--then let a quarterback come along who is healthy and fresh, and kick the snot out of him. That's not saying much.


Sorry but your way off on that one Tom. Irys's upper arm, from shoulder to elbow, goes all the way down to his waist which then meets his forearm. Which makes his upper arm longer than a human arm, you might want to note that your arm from shoulder to elbow only reaches to the mid point on your torso.

...Irys' arms are only good for stabbing, draining and then pulling them out. That is all. Get by just the stabbing part and Irys' arms are useless.

Well since you guys have gotten mostly everything else covered between you two, I will just address this one specific thing.

The jewel that Ayana has belongs to Irys, it doesnt belong to Gamera.

That line is screwed up. But then its a dub so its expected to have mistakes. Hell GMK had the humans cheering when Ghidorah got hit with the D-03.

Everything I have, from books to figures calls it &quot;Irys's Jewel.&quot; And yes I do have an Irys Jewel. It was released with the Iwakura/Orion Gamera series 2 figures, for some strange reason it came with Majin, go figure.

It wasn't a dub... You can go and check your subtitled copy if you'd like.

[Black16]

Mr. Phish said:
True but the ball isn't all that big.

That would simply depend on how powerful the magnetic field the plasma is suspended in is. &nbsp;Two balls could be of the same size but weaker field and less mass in one and a stronger field and greater mass in the other.

Perhaps 'releases all at once' would have been a better choice of words in this instance. &nbsp;I'm not sure the explanation on the Inverse-Square law was all that neccesary, it's pretty much a given that the farther you farther you are from the epicenter of a blast the less energy you're exposed to.

The explanation was more for the benefit of those not very scientifically inclined than anything else.

That would seem to indicate movement by physical impactor to me, that or if we keep running with the magnetic idea possibly Irys slapping on another one after the tentacle caused the field gamera generated to breach.

Or the field could have been weakened via a degree of cancellation from the EM field around Irys’ tendril tips. We don’t know how Irys slapped the balls away so we can only speculate. &nbsp;But if she did have a high degree of control over the EM field, enough to create a new one around the ball, then it wouldn’t have been too hard for Irys to direct and stray material away from his/her tendrils, thus avoiding all damage.

Or s/he could have just smacked in physically and knocked some material loose.

*shrugs* &nbsp;It’s rather hard to know for sure.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 04 2004,22:29)]
Quote[/b] ]You're missing the point of what I meant. Super X-3 and Space Godzilla literally could guard their bodies with armor or a shield from Godzilla's ray.

And? &nbsp;Godzilla still didn't attempt to seek any additional weakpoints. &nbsp;Instead he just kept blasting away.. ironically enough at what are probably the most heavily protected areas of its opponents.

Quote[/b] ] If Godzilla fought Irys, then all that would be attempting to block Godzilla's ray would be tentacles. No, not just tentacles, the metallic tips. There is more of an option for Godzilla to shoot and succeed in hitting, since it would be just the tentacles attempting to block the ray.

However this is pretty well abnormal behavior from him since he very rarely, if ever, adjusts his aim at all, even against unshielded opponents. &nbsp;He doesn't target vulnerable areas at all, he just spits and that's it (though he does usually go for center of mass).

Quote[/b] ]Within the red circle that I provided is the area Godzilla's beam proved ineffective against. Now, the reason I didn't circle the whole thing is because I was not sure if the wings were armored (which I think they are).

Compare wing and body size however. &nbsp;They can't be carrying near the armor thickness as the rest of the Super-X3 (and there is a point where the wings would be so heavy that whatever lift they generated really wouldn't be worth the weight increase). &nbsp;However Godzilla didn't even fire a probing shot at these areas to see if they were any less tough than the main body. &nbsp;What makes you think he's going to try hitting other areas of Irys then if he won't even do it in this case?

Quote[/b] ]Just if you were a giant radioactive dinosaur, what would you fire at? The big part that would be easier to hit or the little thing. Godzilla has enough IQ to realize the ray proved ineffective, in yet what could he do? In his condition, I think it would be hard to exploit any weaknesses if you're about to blow up and/or melt. Ever been really sick and was unlucky enough to experience a rising temperature? For example, your temperature was around 105 degrees. Could you think properly?


If we were talking about an isolated incident this might be more effective. &nbsp;However it isn't as we continually see Godzilla simply plug away at his opponent without trying to hit any vulnerable spots (even ones most animals know by instinct like the throat or head).

Quote[/b] ]Like the first picture, within the red circle is the areas of where Godzilla beam was ineffective--mostly because of the shield. (I bring up the shield because that is what this theory is based on--Irys' metallic tips possessing some sort of electromagnetic shield). But even without the shield, Godzilla's beam had not real damaging effect. And it is not known if Godzilla's ray would've inflicted any injury to the shoulder crystals (that's debateable I guess). But back to the point, with the shield up there really was no other place for Godzilla to strike. The options were limited.


The point is that he didn't even try to find any. &nbsp;Why would he here? &nbsp;Furthermore what about after Space Godzilla's shield failed? &nbsp;Did he go for the head with its vulnerable nostrils, ears, and eyes? &nbsp;No he did his usual body shot.

Quote[/b] ]I circled the metallic tips, which you and Jeff have speculated to give off an electromagnetic shield that could repel Godzilla's ray. Now, you've assumed that if Godzilla fired his heat beam and Irys' tentacles attempted to intercept the beam and somehow successfully blocked it, then Godzilla would just fire in the same spot and not attempt to move, since he did the same thing with Super X-3 and Space Godzilla. But what's the difference here? Godzilla has a heck of a lot more places to pick and fire at


His aim might shift with a second shot if that's what you mean. &nbsp;If on the other hand you mean him actively changing the impact point of the beam while it's firing I really doubt it. &nbsp;Godzilla could pick and fire at any place he wanted to on SG once that shield was gone after all, and what about Moguera? &nbsp;Same thing.

Quote[/b] ]It wouldn't make it harder to change his aim, it would just make it harder to inflict damage. There would be no point in changing your aim and attempt to hit the target in another spot if it was designed to withstand such damage.


I somehow doubt Godzilla knows the design specs for the SX3. &nbsp;He doesn't know this thing was made to withstand its beam he just knows it can.. or at least the main body can and he never shows any interest in aiming for any other parts of it such as the engines or wings.

Quote[/b] ]Truth be told, Hyper Gyaos' beam power dwarfs a lot of monsters, not just Godzilla. Pansy or not, able to blow off a neck is still impressive and it was done to show this newly awakened Godzilla was not something to underestimate.


However the Hyper-Gyaos is bottom rung against the Daiei beasties.

Oh and interesting point the KG mention reminded me of.. Modern nuclear weapons give off less in the way of radiation than the old ones did yet somehow made Godzilla stronger.. go figure http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Quote[/b] ]Somewhere along the lines, Irys probably had a vulnerability to Gamera's fireballs. It could be possible it was able to adapt and evolve to counter Gamera's primary weapon. But the point I was making is Biollante's tentacles were strong enough to pierce Godzilla's hide in yet Godzilla's ray managed to rip them apart. I think if Godzilla were to hit one of Irys' tentacles, the fleshy part, it would be quite painful.

No, Biollante had a SPECIFIC vulnerability to Godzilla's ray. &nbsp;Like an allergy almost, it affected her far more than a beam its power should have.

Quote[/b] ]Hmmm... I wonder if the Baby Irys could've survived those very same flamethrowers and automatic weapons? Point is it took three spiral blasts to break the skin, proving Destroyah's hide is really thick.


Unknown since we have nothing to guage it's durability off of. &nbsp;However what you seem to miss is that destroyah's hide is not actually thick. &nbsp;In reality it's extremely thin and untold numbers of those things were dying with every hit. &nbsp;At the basic level every form of Destroyah is the same group organism, just rearranged in a different shape and group size. &nbsp;Destroyah IS highly damage resistant, it's massively decentralized nature makes sure of that, however it is exceptionally easy to destroy bits of it.

Quote[/b] ]Might as well bring up an example you, yourself, showed: GxM's &quot;uber-powerful&quot; ray - in your opinion, Phish, what do you think would happen if GxM unleashed his ray upon the metallic tips of Irys' tentacles?


It depends. &nbsp;If we go in with full science-mode active.. unknown (since as others have pointed out you couldn't really move a black hole that way. &nbsp;It'd just snarf the beam).

If we ignore the other properties of the black hole and simply focus on the mass moved (as I said I was doing when I did it) then no it would not stop the beam.

Then there's option three where the D-tide is not a black hole (which makes sense as a 2 meter black hole would do icky things to the planet just by being near it, nevermind hitting it) but something else like a wormhole or some such then I can't say as I can't quantify it.

Quote[/b] ]Gamera would be a good example. Remember his fight with Legion? Legion impaled the poor turtle, causing thousands of gallons of blood to pour out of Gammy at the air-field. Even when Gamera took laser whips going through his very body, he still continued to fight. It took an explosion on par with Hiroshima to take the fight out of him... (Not really, I think he would've got right back up and continued to fight, if he weren't unconscious...)


While we're on the subject that bomb was MUCH more powerful than Hiroshima. &nbsp;Going by the crater we're easily talking a blast in the megaton range (putting it hundreds of times more powerful than the piddly 15 kiloton blast that took out Hiroshima). &nbsp;And Gamera did suffer many wounds fighting Legion, however they weren't something on the scale of having most of your mid-section internal organs forcibly torn out.

Quote[/b] ]I meant to say: &quot;I was just wondering if you thought Irys was perfect and even if he suffered a massive wound, he'd be able to get out of it by doing something &quot;mystical&quot;.&quot;

Your earlier posts gave the feeling that you think Irys is perfect. I know you don't really think that, just you've made it sound that way.

I've never made any claims to the idea Irys is perfect. &nbsp;Exceptionally powerful and dangerous yes, however with how often you see me citing the movies for direct evidence I could hardly claim he was after seeing G3 now could I? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Quote[/b] ]Reminds me of my cat. Now there's a feline you don't want angry... She could beat Irys, Godzilla or anything for that matter.

I love cats. &nbsp;I positively adore my three and I get massively pissed off when I hear about or see someone mistreating one.. yet for some reason I can't look at that picture without laughing at the expression on that cat's face. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Quote[/b] ]Ah, well I guess that's the impression I recieved. I quote one of Jeff's comments: &quot;that he could physically block the beam with his tentacles deflecting it and then use the EM field control to effect the degree of deflection even more.&quot; - Of course, if Irys could do that, he would've probably chucked the fireballs right back at Gamera or tried. Just I can't picture tentacles blocking a beam and deflecting it away.


Ah well that's different. &nbsp;Jeff's referring to blocking, and deflection, not slapping the sucker aside like a baseball. &nbsp;Deflection IS possible with the shield idea, however how much deflection can be managed is something to wonder. &nbsp;After making it go back the way it came is going to require an awful lot of shifting stuff around. &nbsp;Far easier for it to do something similar to the Hyper-Gyaos beam in G3 that deflected of Gamera's arm.

Quote[/b] ]In my own personal opinion, Gamera's fireballs remind me of meteors. (Or better yet a meteorite.) Imagine a meteorite plummeting into Earth with enough power to eradicate all life. Now here we have the impact, truly dangerous and it must really hurt Earth. I bet its cursing and wished the meteor hit the Moon instead. Next the massive explosion begins to spread across the Earth and well I'm sure you can figure out the rest. (What, with the shockwaves and etc...)


Interesting you bring that up since guess what happens to an impactor moving at a high enough velocity when it hits something? &nbsp;It pretty much instantly converts into plasma and you get a nice imitation of a nuclear blast (only without most of the radiation going with it, though there's plenty from impacts with molecules and the like). &nbsp;A good sized meteorite hitting will not only cause an immense physical impact, but also a nice thermal pulse. &nbsp;However this is pretty much the reverse of what we see with Gamera's fireballs (which provide lots of thermal with some physical shock), probably due to the fact that gamera's fireballs are plasma instead of a big hunk of nickel-iron http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Quote[/b] ]Why bring up opponents who could naturally counter Godzilla's beam in areas that take up the majority part of their bodies/forms?


You're missing the point. &nbsp;He doesn't evne bother trying to find a weakpoint despite going up against something he's encountered at best once before. &nbsp;Instead he continues firing at the same area even if it proves ineffective. &nbsp;He just doesn't bother, so going by this behavior why would he bother trying to get around Irys' tentacle tips? &nbsp;If they block his beam why would he adjust his aim instead of taking another shot there like he always does?

Quote[/b] ]I think the link between Ayana and Irys was telekinetic. They seem drawn to each other...either telekinetically or spiritually. It would make more sense if the jewel was a connection between Ayana and Irys. It could be possible that that jewel could connect people with more than one other creature?


I doubt it seriously. &nbsp;After all If that Jewel had some kind of connection with Gamera it probably should have broken to. &nbsp;Ayana and Irys are linked by the jewel as Jeff pointed out (she did find it with Irys after all just like the Gamera ones were found with Gamera).

Quote[/b] ]That would make sense. Heck, her unsuccessful attempt to control Irys may have distracted him to allow Gamera to pull the blade out of his stomach in the first place. Ugh, now I'm split in between.

Well we already know she's a nut. &nbsp;She kidnapped Ayana for a reason, and she hangs out with the creepy effiminate guy who can't seem to stop going on about how the Gyaos are supposed to cleanse the world.. chances are she was trying to use Ayana to control Irys, and when that proved unworkable tried to do so herself. &nbsp;However it didn't work since Irys doesn't actually take any commands it doesn't want to and it had made its choice on who it wanted.

Quote[/b] ]They're just there to stab, suck dry and move on. In my eyes, the best hands could do more than just that. Monsters like King Kong hold the spot as the monsters with the best hands.


Well King-Kong's hands are good for tool using and tasks requiring manual dexterity. &nbsp;However they're not much in the combat department. &nbsp;

Quote[/b] ]I'd be happy to see more of what you think of this.


I'll try and get a comparative screen-cap.

Quote[/b] ]Or Irys was created to destroy Gamera incase he went out of control. Would make sense... Gamera's creators created Gyaos and they went out of control. So they created Gamera but in an attempt not to repeat history, they could've created a Gamera-Assassin. Makes you wonder if they made a Irys killer.

Possibly. &nbsp;On the other hand they also based Irys off the Gyaos who had already screwed them over once before.. another possibility I like is that Irys was another counter-gyaos weapon, perhaps one they attempted earlier before deciding it was too risky and going with Gamera.

Quote[/b] ]Since the beam itself would be heading towards Irys, parts of the beam could still get by and strike the Mutated Gyaos.


If it gets by it'd have to be bigger than Irys' tentacle tip at least. &nbsp;However there is still the question of whether or not the beam would maintain coherency like it did against SG's shield or scatter off in all directions as individual particles.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Black16 @ April 05 2004,02:24)]
Quote[/b] ]That would simply depend on how powerful the magnetic field the plasma is suspended in is. &nbsp;Two balls could be of the same size but weaker field and less mass in one and a stronger field and greater mass in the other.

Yes there is still density to consider, though I don't think it would have been all that dense but that's just me defaulting to the lower possibility on general principle.

Quote[/b] ]But if she did have a high degree of control over the EM field, enough to create a new one around the ball, then it wouldn’t have been too hard for Irys to direct and stray material away from his/her tendrils, thus avoiding all damage.


Which opens up some interesting possibilities on what Irys could potentially do when not suffering from massive organ failure. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Quote[/b] ]Or s/he could have just smacked in physically and knocked some material loose.


Yep.. and that is the simplest explanation.

Quote[/b] ]*shrugs* &nbsp;It’s rather hard to know for sure.

Too true.. but it's certainly fun to try and figure it out isn't it &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 05 2004,02:22)]Jeff, re-read what I clearly wrote above. I said: &quot;What were you watching? After knocking the fireballs away and allowing them to plumet into the ground to explode, Irys' tentacles were well out of reach of whatever damage the explosions could cause.&quot;
By the way, I looked at those pictures and you won't believe what I was watching:

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/Irys.JPG

Top Picture-

This proved to be the hardest. But as you can see, I was able to change the pic to black and white so I could see better. I could faintly see the two tentacles almost crossing the other (it's possible they are). And low and behold, they are not enveloped at all. If they were, I would not have been able to see those tentacles at all. What you see above is what happened after the fireball was knocked away.

Bottom Picture-

Now this was the easiest of the two. I don't know exactly how you came to the conclusion that those tentacles are &quot;inside&quot; the flames. For one, as you can see, I was kind enough to also draw exactly where the tentacles are and show they are quite visible. Also, I think you might want to know, the tentacle on the left is not making contact with that fireball at all. Because I just re-watched that scene and it is, in fact, the one on the right that just finished swatting that sucker away. I doubt Irys would be bold enough to send two tentacles at one fireball.

The reason of why we saw the fireball almost implode in mid-air is that I assume Irys' tentacles knocked one of the fireballs so hard it nearly caused the impact to occur. After all, if the fireball really did explode in mid-air, then there'd be no reason for it to explode &quot;again&quot; when it hit the ground afterwards.
Those tentacles are within the explosions. Just because the entire length of the tentacle isnt doesnt mean none of it is. The tip is what explodes the plasma ball, and if the tip explodes it, then that means its within the explosion which puts part of the tentacle within it. Oh, and no you cannot see the tip in either of those pictures because the ends are whited out by the explosion.

But if your saying its not, then you are countering your other claims that Irys cant move his tentacles that fast. Because inorder to get away from that explosion he would have to be lighting quick.

Quote[/b] ]You do realize that when dynamite is ignited, it burns extremely rapidly and produces a large amount of hot gas in the process. The hot gas expands very rapidly and applies pressure. Thing is, this is quite the opposite with Gamera's fireballs. Since after swatting those fireballs away, they didn't explode.

They didnt? Then whats producing all those massive explosions you see in the pictures? I guess Irys has the ability to smack something with a tentacle now and make it explode. Because if its not Gameras plasma balls creating those explosions your only choice left is Irys.

But your missing the point. You were saying that its just heat that does all the damage, which is wrong. Those plasma balls when they explode create a massive shockwave of pure kinetic force along with all that heat. Which is why your analogy doesnt work.

Quote[/b] ]Your assuming that the attacker's beam isn't as fast as Irys' tentacles. Watch the kaiju movies and time just how long it takes for a beam to leave a monster's mouth and hit its target and compare with the time Gamera fired his fireballs and having them knocked away. Of course, keep in mind, Gamera was up in the sky. Irys had all the time he needed to get ready to block.

There are very few Kaiju that have beams that might be faster than Irys can move his tentacles. You even help prove how fast he can move them in your explanation of the pictures above, its fast enough to get the majority of it out of the path of the explosion. Thats faster than most beams being fired. Gayos beam, Heisei Mothra and Trilogy Mothra have beams that travel extremely fast other than that there are few others.

Quote[/b] ]I don't think the flesh of Irys' tentacle could withstand being completely enveloped by a beam if it were to go right through it towards the kaiju. Irys isn't that foolish.

I think it can, some of the tentacles are clearly within the explosion. The part that was was clearly undamaged, that says alot.

Then at the station when Gamera blew off his arm, Irys was unaffected by that blast as well. And dont you think that Gamera would have fired directly at Irys if his plasma ball would have hurt him instead of firing at his own arm. He had Irys at point blank range and instead chose to injure himself instead of blast his opponent. Now Gamera isnt stupid, far from it, I dont think its difficult to put 2 &amp; 2 together.

Quote[/b] ]I will this 4th of July. I'll ask some to take a firecracker or a little fire work and throw it at me, and I'll bat it away. We'll see what happens. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I was thinking more along the lines of a hand grenade, but if you want to wuss out. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Which didn't happen--if it did, then we would never have seen the ground alive with fire. The fireballs didn't explode in mid-air, if they did then they some how managed to reform and fall to the ground.

If you watch the entire sequence, they do both. Why do you think you see those huge explosions in the air? Would you care to explain whats causing those gigantic explosions above Irys? Im sure you have a good explanation for them since you say they arent Gameras plasma balls. I lok forward to hearing this. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]That would probably convince someone if they depended on just a side view.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/kaijustats/graphics/irys/irys.jpg

Now here's a better view!

What do we have here to look at? If you'd look closely, you'd see Irys' arms aren't that long. If they tried, right now, to be held up and defend his chest, it wouldn't provide much protection. Because the metal shafts around his hands aren't exactly that wide. And when we saw Irys stab Gamera, ever wondered why Irys didn't just raise his arms up and drill the spear through Gamera's face? Because it would be abnormally difficult for Irys to lift it any higher in the first place! Why else do you think the blades were made to extend in lengths?

Tale a look at the other picture I posted it shows it much better than your picture.

Irys Stat (http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irysstat.jpg)

Again, notice how the upper arm extends from the shoulder to the waist, which is longer than a humans upper arm, ours only reaches half way down or torso. There it meets the elbow and connects to the forearm. Just because its partially covered by tentacles doesnt mean that it isnt fully functional.

Quote[/b] ]Guess what Jeff, my theory just got kicked out of Hell and was reassigned to reality! They weren't within that explosion, only &quot;near&quot; it. Yes, there's a difference. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes the part you can see is outside the explosion, to bad that the rest is within it. You see the flash of the explosion only allows you to see what is outside it, it dosent show you whats inside, which is the rest of the tentacle.

Quote[/b] ]The question isn't why couldn't he keep in the tentacles in the same spot, it's why would he want to if his opponent would change the direction of his beam to avoid the tentacles if they somehow by some miracle prove to be a barrier? By the way, when in the movie was Irys' armor attacked? Besides the military assaults and that dagger that was &quot;suppose&quot; to do something.

Well when they explode the fireballs, no damage is done to the tentacles.

When Gamera blows off his are, which has Irys's blade through it and standing right up against him, the explosion only destroys Gameras arm.

Oh, and you also must have missed the areial attack sequence where Gamera goes spinning into Irys, which is not only physical damage but also heat from Gameras jets. And guess what, Irys suffered no damage.

But maybe you would care to show where he was damaged other than the plasma fist which killed him, which we all know about.

Quote[/b] ]Do what I suggested above and time. You also might as well watch almost every Godzilla movie and come back to me explaining that Godzilla had almost every time fired at the ground first....

Sorry Tom, but Goji isnt nearly as fast as Irys's tentacles. Hell it takes Goji longer just to charge his beam than it does Irys to move his tentacles.

Quote[/b] ]He was the strongest, but he was at a disadvantage. It's like taking a Football linemen, having him run the whole day until the point he's tired and dehydrated--then let a quarterback come along who is healthy and fresh, and kick the snot out of him. That's not saying much.

And when was Gamera tired? He was fine when he faced Irys. And remember you also talking about a creature in Gamera that is able to function even when hes got a gaping hole going through the center of his body. Gameras endurance is exceptional, so saying he was at a disadvantage because he was tired is pretty silly.

Quote[/b] ]...Irys' arms are only good for stabbing, draining and then pulling them out. That is all. Get by just the stabbing part and Irys' arms are useless.

Again see above.

Quote[/b] ]It wasn't a dub... You can go and check your subtitled copy if you'd like.

I dont need to, i've seen the film enough and have multiple copies. I also saw it in the theater at AFFE3, the copy was brought by Kaneko himself along with G2. Irys's gem doesnt link Ayana to Gamera, it links her to Irys.

[PyrasTerran]

I'm loving this, I'm learning more and more, and I now see Irys as even more powerful than he was before. Thanks, folks.

It's funny how this started as a &quot;Irys is overrated&quot; thread, and newer reasons are coming out to prove he isn't.

[Tomzilla]

SandwormPhish-

And? Godzilla still didn't attempt to seek any additional weakpoints. Instead he just kept blasting away.. ironically enough at what are probably the most heavily protected areas of its opponents.

I suggest thinking from Godzilla's perspective for a second. How many times had he been attacked by these armored flying 'bugs' in the past? Countless times. The majority of the time, whenever he used his heat beam, the planes would go boom. Now, to you Godzilla may appear to be &quot;stupid&quot;, but he's actually more intelligent than what you'd give him credit for. We've seen him solve problems and attack what would eventually lead to the downfall of his opponents.

I'm just saying to Godzilla, his reptilian instincts are telling him that in the past, whenever he fired at the &quot;face&quot; of the flying vehicle, it usually went boom. Super X-3, however, didn't do this... And since he was on the brink of death and destruction, you might as well continue to just belch out more spiral blasts. Oh and if you didn't notice, firing heat beams was Godzilla's way of lowering his rising temperature.


However this is pretty well abnormal behavior from him since he very rarely, if ever, adjusts his aim at all, even against unshielded opponents. He doesn't target vulnerable areas at all, he just spits and that's it (though he does usually go for center of mass).

Well, then you need to keep in mind Godzilla had only faced one foe who had tentacles.

Biollante.

And exactly what did Godzilla do? Attacked the tentacles and the main body. We just need to remember, the reason Godzilla never swayed his aim away from Biollante's tentacles to the actual main body in the first place is because the tentacles were not putting up a resistance. With Irys, two things will happen: He'll keep firing at the tentacle and then stop to quickly fire away from the tentacle and at Irys or he'll do what I said could happen.


Compare wing and body size however. They can't be carrying near the armor thickness as the rest of the Super-X3 (and there is a point where the wings would be so heavy that whatever lift they generated really wouldn't be worth the weight increase). However Godzilla didn't even fire a probing shot at these areas to see if they were any less tough than the main body. What makes you think he's going to try hitting other areas of Irys then if he won't even do it in this case?

I can't remember exactly where I read it from, but I recall that we were able to actually create a metal that didn't weigh that much in yet was hard to break. In fact, at the top of your head, I bet you could think up materials that could compare with what I just stated. But try and put your feet in Godzilla's shoes (not that he has any) for a second and try to make sense of his current condition. Your heat is on the verge of collapsing and you have only a few days to live. You're trying to go say bye to your son, but it's hard to concentrate with this rising temperature and this throbbing headache. Then some flying fortress appears and starts shooting at you. In the past, you recall, you've blasted these things down just by shooting at its nose. You fire a beam but it does nothing...

Now this leads us to believe that perhaps Godzilla is thinking that maybe the wings would be resistance as well. Who knows? Hard to think when you're going to blow up...


If we were talking about an isolated incident this might be more effective. However it isn't as we continually see Godzilla simply plug away at his opponent without trying to hit any vulnerable spots (even ones most animals know by instinct like the throat or head).

Super X-3 has a throat? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Against opponents who could easily regenerate they're injuries, it's not like firing at SG's face or eyes would do anything.


The point is that he didn't even try to find any. Why would he here? Furthermore what about after Space Godzilla's shield failed? Did he go for the head with its vulnerable nostrils, ears, and eyes? No he did his usual body shot.

Well he sure did take a bite out of Space Godzilla's neck.


His aim might shift with a second shot if that's what you mean. If on the other hand you mean him actively changing the impact point of the beam while it's firing I really doubt it. Godzilla could pick and fire at any place he wanted to on SG once that shield was gone after all, and what about Moguera? Same thing.

Comparing Godzilla's intelligence with that idiotic crew of Mecha-Penguin is harsh, Phish. But alas, Godzilla never faced an opponent whose tentacles could possibly repel his own attack. His behavior in that manner would be unpredicted, but we can always theorize.



However the Hyper-Gyaos is bottom rung against the Daiei beasties.

In terms of power, yes. In penetration, only Irys would win that one.


Oh and interesting point the KG mention reminded me of.. Modern nuclear weapons give off less in the way of radiation than the old ones did yet somehow made Godzilla stronger.. go figure


Well, it comes at no surprise that Toho never really does research as we the fans do. You think they even know fans go into debates like this?



I love cats. I positively adore my three and I get massively pissed off when I hear about or see someone mistreating one.. yet for some reason I can't look at that picture without laughing at the expression on that cat's face.

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/DemonCat.jpg

Well then....BEHOLD, MY DEMON CAT!
And yes, those teeth ARE real...


Well we already know she's a nut. She kidnapped Ayana for a reason, and she hangs out with the creepy effiminate guy who can't seem to stop going on about how the Gyaos are supposed to cleanse the world.. chances are she was trying to use Ayana to control Irys, and when that proved unworkable tried to do so herself. However it didn't work since Irys doesn't actually take any commands it doesn't want to and it had made its choice on who it wanted.

BEHOLD...CRAZY-NUTTY-GIRL in all her glory...

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/crazylady.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/crazylady2.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/crazylady3.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/crazylady4.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/crazylady5.jpg


Notice how after she says what she says, the jewel begins to radiate a green glow and we see that same glow pulsing inside Gamera's wound after pulling Irys' blade out.


Well King-Kong's hands are good for tool using and tasks requiring manual dexterity. However they're not much in the combat department.

Really? You mean King Kong couldn't grab, choke, break another's neck, break another's limb, lift, throw, stab, pokes someone's eyes and...you get the idea. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


I'll try and get a comparative screen-cap.

Well, if you need help at attaining it, just PM me with the details.


Possibly. On the other hand they also based Irys off the Gyaos who had already screwed them over once before.. another possibility I like is that Irys was another counter-gyaos weapon, perhaps one they attempted earlier before deciding it was too risky and going with Gamera.

Makes sense.


Concerning just how powerful Legion's pod was after it blowing up is really impressive. Ever noticed that when people try and prove that Gamera kaiju are weak (or Gamera), they bring up the small stuff; like being attacked by tank fire and falling down or being blown out of the sky by missiles... In yet, they ignore the fact that Gamera took a blast that dwarfs Hiroshima while standing right next to it and coming back to fight later on.






Saruman-

Those tentacles are within the explosions. Just because the entire length of the tentacle isnt doesnt mean none of it is. The tip is what explodes the plasma ball, and if the tip explodes it, then that means its within the explosion which puts part of the tentacle within it. Oh, and no you cannot see the tip in either of those pictures because the ends are whited out by the explosion.

Curious I was, I took it upon myself to watch Gamera 3 again and get pictures, step by step, of what exactly Irys did and what direction his tentacles went. I'm pleased with what I found:

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/Irys_Tentacles.JPG

Picture #1: The fireball draws near, obviously. In my opinion, Irys seems skeptical on what tentacle to use to knock it away.

Picture #2: Fireball gets closer and the tentacles prepare to strike. Only pay close attention to the tentacle on the left. For ITS metallic tip is the one that makes contact.

Picture #3: Contact made. Irys is literally having his tentacles ALMOST cross one another. The tentacle on the left makes contact with its metallic tip. You can tell the tentacle on the right made no contact because its form remains straight and it will be used to swat another fireball away (Irys doesn't need two tentacles to knock away one fireball).

Picture #4: The tentacle is NO LONGER making contact with the fireball. The collision between the left tentacle's metallic tip with the fireball in the earlier picture was the only time contact was made. Now as you can see, the fireball is falling towards the left and if you pay attention to the picture and the actual motion in the movie itself, the left tentacle is also moving left, proving it was responsible in changing the fireball's course. And if you're not blind, you can spot the right tentacle just remaining where it was, unaffected and untouched by the fireball's scorching flames.

Picture #5: As I mentioned before, now the fireball is heading to the left. The left tentacle just did its job WITHOUT having its flesh come into contact with the fireball. The metallic tip was the only thing that came into contact for half a second, only to swat the fireball away and pull out.

Picture #6: As the fireball falls to the ground, the tentacles that had crossed one another prepare to hit the OTHER fireballs and succeeded in not being enveloped by the fireball's burning essence.

In English, they were not within an &quot;explosion&quot; (fireballs...). HOW can the flesh be in the &quot;explosion&quot; (fireballs...) if the only contact made between the fireball and Irys' tentacles, was with just the metallic tips? Because right after contact, POW--the fireball is already streaking away from the tentacle itself. The picture you provided was just ONE picture and it would've succeeded in convincing people who would settle with just...one picture.

I'm not done yet, by the way.... Ooooh no....

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/Irys_Tentacles_2.JPG

Picture #1: The fireball is coming. Its heading directly towards Irys! But wait, just to the left side a little bit of the fireball, you can see the glowing metallic tip of one of Irys' tentacles. Just below that one, is another. Watch the top one because it's the one that'll save Irys from a world of hurt.

Picture #2: Contact is made.

Picture #3: Irys' must've been pissed or something, because as Irys' metallic tip collides with that fireball, the metallic tip itself almost disrupts the electromagnetic barrier that keeps the fireball being just that: a fireball.

Picture #4: The fireball nearly collapses and would almost do what you claimed it did: blow up in mid-air. But as the fire exhaust rages out of the fireball, Irys succeeded in changing its course and it'll fall to the ground. BUT WAIT! What about the other tentacle?! Why, its metallic tip never made contact with the fireball, so why would Irys try and bat a fireball away that has already been hit? The answer is he ISN'T because there was no need for him to do so. Right now another fireball is on its way and that tentacle that didn't get to hit anything is now taking aim.

Picture #5: Seeing that the first tentacle got the job done, the second tentacle that LOOKS as if its in the flame (its not--I did a slow motion during the whole scene dozens of times and I gurantee that tentacle doesn't even touch the fireball or its near explosion) but it didn't. As I said above... Another fireball is on the way and Irys plans to hit a homer!

Picture #6: Now, I felt compelled to ask the same question again: Why would Irys use another tentacle to hit a fireball that has already been knocked out of a course that would strike Irys? It wouldn't and it didn't. You can see the slow-motion I did here at work. The fireball let out exhaust and the EM field that contains Gamera's fireballs almost collapsed, but it didn't. The fireball then hits the ground and like the other fireballs, it causes a big explosion. And no, I didn't forget about the OTHER tentacle. As I said, another fireball--the last--was on its way. That second tentacle came up and knocked that sucker way behind Irys...

Wow, now isn't Irys one hell of a batter?

Wait, that doesn't matter, now does it? If you'd like, you yourself can go watch that very scene, step-by-step and go in slow motion... Anyone can. Be sure that you've written down exactly what I just said or at least memorized them and read them out in your head as the scenes unfold before your eyes. Eventually, you'll see that I'm right concerning this issue. Unless you'd like to launch some type of wild and crazy theory that didn't happen that would try to counter my arguement. I can't wait to see this...

But if your saying its not, then you are countering your other claims that Irys cant move his tentacles that fast. Because inorder to get away from that explosion he would have to be lighting quick.

Please quote me of when I said Irys can't move his tentacles that fast. I never doubted Irys' tentacles weren't fast, I know they are. But you're basing your accusations on his speed for blocking fireballs discharged from a giant turtle thousands of feet in the sky and comparing it with Godzilla's ray that strikes an opponent in less than a second. Like I said before, why not go and watch the movies, and time the two--and we'll see who is faster. In fact, I'll be sure to do that now...


They didnt? Then whats producing all those massive explosions you see in the pictures? I guess Irys has the ability to smack something with a tentacle now and make it explode. Because if its not Gameras plasma balls creating those explosions your only choice left is Irys.

No, there are plenty of other choices. If the fireball did explode, then howcome it still continued to fall and hit the ground and--gasp--explode? See what I said above.

But your missing the point. You were saying that its just heat that does all the damage, which is wrong. Those plasma balls when they explode create a massive shockwave of pure kinetic force along with all that heat. Which is why your analogy doesnt work.

When on Earth did I say the only damage that Gamera's fireballs cause is the heat? Read a few of my responses to Phish and you'll see me comment that what makes Gamera's fireballs dangerous is the explosion that occurs afterwards. So exactly how does my analogy not work if what you said in your last sentence is exactly what I've said earlier?


There are very few Kaiju that have beams that might be faster than Irys can move his tentacles. You even help prove how fast he can move them in your explanation of the pictures above, its fast enough to get the majority of it out of the path of the explosion. Thats faster than most beams being fired. Gayos beam, Heisei Mothra and Trilogy Mothra have beams that travel extremely fast other than that there are few others.

Now I wonder if Irys could dodge them if Gamera were standing on the ground at the distance he was when he landed to confront Irys...I'm not saying it's impossible, in fact I think Irys could, but I've seen monsters who hit their targets right after the beam left their mouth/eyes/whatever.


I think it can, some of the tentacles are clearly within the explosion. The part that was was clearly undamaged, that says alot.

Not saying a lot since the only thing that makes contact with the fireballs are the metallic tips and that was it. Right after contact, the fireballs were knocked away, which made it impossible for the flesh of Irys' tentacles to make any contact. They are not within the explosion--they are only near it.


Then at the station when Gamera blew off his arm, Irys was unaffected by that blast as well. And dont you think that Gamera would have fired directly at Irys if his plasma ball would have hurt him instead of firing at his own arm. He had Irys at point blank range and instead chose to injure himself instead of blast his opponent. Now Gamera isnt stupid, far from it, I dont think its difficult to put 2 &amp; 2 together.

Hmmm... Now what could Gamera possibly be thinking? Let's see: I fired my fireballs at this squid earlier and it just knocked them away. Now here I am...not sure if a fireball would inflict any damage and he's sucking the life out of me. If I waist a fireball on him, then I would not be able to muster enough energy to fire another to free myself and I'd be good as dead. Hmmm...

Firing at his arm was the wise decision. By the way, of course Irys was unaffected by the blast after Gamera fired at his arm--the fireball wasn't even going towards Irys! We sure didn't see any explosion rising up after wards, now did we? So what are you... trying to prove?


I was thinking more along the lines of a hand grenade, but if you want to wuss out.

Alright, it's on then... This 4th of July, I'll take a grenade and let it blow.


If you watch the entire sequence, they do both. Why do you think you see those huge explosions in the air? Would you care to explain whats causing those gigantic explosions above Irys? Im sure you have a good explanation for them since you say they arent Gameras plasma balls. I lok forward to hearing this.

I already explained what caused those explosions above Irys. And stop putting words in my mouth since I never said those weren't Gamera's fireballs. And please explain something to me: If the fireball exploded in mid-air above Irys, then howcome it manage to remain in its round form to plummet into the ground and explode... again?



Tale a look at the other picture I posted it shows it much better than your picture.

Irys Stat

Again, notice how the upper arm extends from the shoulder to the waist, which is longer than a humans upper arm, ours only reaches half way down or torso. There it meets the elbow and connects to the forearm. Just because its partially covered by tentacles doesnt mean that it isnt fully functional.

You didn't understand the point and reasoning of why I posted the other picture in the first place. You claim that Irys could raise those flexible arms of his to shield himself--but in the picture I showed, you can see that if Irys tried to do that, he wouldn't really be guarding the chest at all. His sword like arms are too thin to get the job done. The picture you just showed only shows a side view--and by the looks of it, if it weren't for that long blade(s), Iry wouldn't be able to do jack but try to tap someone gently. That is why the blade can extend... to actually hit the opponent, something Irys' normal hands couldn't accomplish.


Yes the part you can see is outside the explosion, to bad that the rest is within it. You see the flash of the explosion only allows you to see what is outside it, it dosent show you whats inside, which is the rest of the tentacle.

Why would Irys still have the tentacle there in the first place if he just finished swatting it away? Do you like think that after making contact, Irys' tentacle just stays with the fireball and escorts it to the ground? This doesn't happen; Irys' metallic tips are the only things that make contact and RIGHT afterwards, they along with the rest of the tentacle do not make contact. The pictures I provided prove this.


Well when they explode the fireballs, no damage is done to the tentacles.

Read above...I don't feel like repeating myself.


When Gamera blows off his are, which has Irys's blade through it and standing right up against him, the explosion only destroys Gameras arm.

Well, Gamera wasn't holding his arm right in front of Irys, now was he? Nope, Gamera was firing DOWN--down isn't in the direction of Irys.


Oh, and you also must have missed the areial attack sequence where Gamera goes spinning into Irys, which is not only physical damage but also heat from Gameras jets. And guess what, Irys suffered no damage.

Are you trying to tell me that the heat from Gamera's jets are on par with the heat and power of Gamera's fireballs?


Sorry Tom, but Goji isnt nearly as fast as Irys's tentacles. Hell it takes Goji longer just to charge his beam than it does Irys to move his tentacles.

Must've been a while since you've watched a Godzilla movie. I think it's about time to repay them a visit and get back to me.


And when was Gamera tired? He was fine when he faced Irys. And remember you also talking about a creature in Gamera that is able to function even when hes got a gaping hole going through the center of his body. Gameras endurance is exceptional, so saying he was at a disadvantage because he was tired is pretty silly.

...Tired because it appears the jewel that is said to be connected with Irys also seems to be connected with Gamera. See the pictures I provided in a response to Phish...to get the full exclusive.


I dont need to, i've seen the film enough and have multiple copies. I also saw it in the theater at AFFE3, the copy was brought by Kaneko himself along with G2. Irys's gem doesnt link Ayana to Gamera, it links her to Irys.

http://www.boomspeed.com/godzillauv/Line.jpg

For the sake of an arguement, you could at least go watch your movie and tell me what yours said. Because if my subtitled is wrong, I'd like to know what is said in this conversation.


(By the way, it didn't let me post the bigger pics...)

[PyrasTerran]

Tom, all the pictures you showed didn't exactly go with what you were saying for them, at least I didn't see it.. Also, I decided to work with these..

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v36/PyrasTerran/Irys_Tentacles2.jpg

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v36/PyrasTerran/Irys_Tentacles_22.jpg

I highlighted the explosion and the tentacles. We can only see the tip of the tentacle in the last picture, and even then, just barely, which concludes that the tentacle's skin, not just the metal-like tips, were submerged in the explosions of batting away the fireballs. I drew a lil okaeki to help show, as well:

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v36/PyrasTerran/irys-true-power2.jpg

That is a crude depiction of what is happening in the pictures you showed us.

Quote[/b] ]No, there are plenty of other choices. If the fireball did explode, then howcome it still continued to fall and hit the ground and--gasp--explode? See what I said above.

Because it only let off some of its energy due to the collision, but not all.

Quote[/b] ]Why would Irys still have the tentacle there in the first place if he just finished swatting it away? Do you like think that after making contact, Irys' tentacle just stays with the fireball and escorts it to the ground? This doesn't happen; Irys' metallic tips are the only things that make contact and RIGHT afterwards, they along with the rest of the tentacle do not make contact. The pictures I provided prove this.

You're confusing the explosions in the background to the explosions in the air.

Quote[/b] ]Are you trying to tell me that the heat from Gamera's jets are on par with the heat and power of Gamera's fireballs?

Coupled with the spinning action, it is, it's like having a blowtorch-decorated wheel grinded into your midsection at high speeds. Not to mention that fire has enough power to propel Gamera through the air at Mach 3.

Quote[/b] ]Must've been a while since you've watched a Godzilla movie. I think it's about time to repay them a visit and get back to me.

if SpaceGodzilla was able to repel Goji's beam with, Irys can match the speed.

[spydrmanjr]

The funny thing is, Tom, is I watched the movie without getting to the final battle in the movie to figure that Ayana was linked with Irys. Why else would (not in chronological order):

a)The jewel not have shattered when Gamera severed his link with humanity more than two years before.

b)Crazylady and Ayana (unconscious) have awakened Irys from its nap and brought it to Ayana.

c)When Ayana ordered it, then Irys attacked Gamera. I mean actually did something other than defending and pushing Gamera around. Irys finally did something when she said &quot;Irys, kill!&quot;

d)Why did Irys pull his blade out of Gamera once Crazylady commanded (suicidely) that something be done?

e)The jewel is more of a sharpened, menacing shape.

f)Why was Irys awakened when Ayana touched the jewel and kept it?

g)Why is it Ayana---who possesses the jewel---unharmed whenever Irys goes on one of his &quot;draining&quot; episodes and Irys is somehow relieved to see her?

h)Ayana is posessed by the jewel and Irys later on. She forms a bond between the two. It's their link. Like Asagi and Gamera.

i)It doesn't match Gamera's eyes. (Hopefully someone gets what I'm saying)

So what you're saying about Gamera and Ayana being connected is flawed as the movie perfectly hints that Irys and Ayana are connected. And I think my first point was enough alone to prove you wrong on that aspect.

Now, who said Irys wasn't there when one of the fireballs exploded? Last I checked Gamera's plasma fire vaporized his whole hand and then some. I just turned the movie on, so I'll tell you what else happened there.

*Everyone waits*

OK. Irys' arm was definately in the area of effect and was seemingly unharmed, while having half his innards ripped out in the process. So far no sweat. The plasma fist sent up a mini Hiroshima once it exited through Irys' back and landed somewhere in the city. Damn. That's weak. (To whoever said that.)

[PyrasTerran]

During the part where the crazy lady holds up the stone, saying she will merge with the God Naobi to battle the evil spirit, wasn't she on Irys' side the whole time? That would mean she thinks Gamera is the evil spirit, not Irys, and would try to fuse with Irys, the &quot;God Naobi&quot;.

[spydrmanjr]

But notice how she kind of turned during that period and when she said her final adieu, the blade was ripped from Gamera.

[PyrasTerran]

turned? I didn't see that. I saw in the dubbed version, she says &quot;Holy God&quot; or something of the sort when Irys shows off his batting average, but I grew up with my sub-import version, which doesn't really show her turn for the better. Eh.

[spydrmanjr]

I'm not sure. She seemed to have that look of worry or something. That and normally one of the evil/crazy people become good and then die in a lot of movies. I think she was trying to save her *** or she agreed with Asagi, which she seemed to regret their plan later on. I think.

[Tomzilla]

PyrasTerran-

I highlighted the explosion and the tentacles. We can only see the tip of the tentacle in the last picture, and even then, just barely, which concludes that the tentacle's skin, not just the metal-like tips, were submerged in the explosions of batting away the fireballs. I drew a lil okaeki to help show, as well:

That is what I originally thought until I rewatched the scene. If the tentacles are in fact submerged in the flames, then during the film we would've been able to actually see flames crawling up the tentacles. From a horizontal shot, which is what those pics are, we only see the tentacle stretched out. Behind is the actual fireball. Now, look closely at the tentacles, especially the flesh--look at it and tell me if you see &quot;any&quot; flames enveloped around it. Then go watch the scene again in the movie and you'll see the only thing that really dances across the tentacles' flesh would be the light from the fireball itself. You don't see any hissing fires climbing up or anything.

It's like taking a little piece of rope and strapping it in front of the mouth of the fire place, with flames hissing behind. Now walk away and look at it from a distance--the light from the fire may shine off the rope, but that doesn't mean it is submerged in the fire. Which is what I've been trying to say.

That is a crude depiction of what is happening in the pictures you showed us.

And tell me, is the fireball &quot;exploding&quot; when the metallic tip comes into contact with it? Phish and Jeff have already mentioned that Gamera's fireballs in this state aren't dangerous because of their &quot;heat&quot;. Not to mention if the skin was exposed to the heat surrounding the ball of plasma that triggers the huge explosion Gamera's fireballs are famous for, it wouldn't have been that severe since the tentacle pulled away within an instant. So exactly what damage did the flesh on Irys' tentacles shrug off? The mere warmth of everything that everyone in this topic had already agreed upon isn't really &quot;that&quot; dangerous?

Because it only let off some of its energy due to the collision, but not all.

...That's basically what I've been saying.

You're confusing the explosions in the background to the explosions in the air.

And what lead you in thinking in my supposed &quot;confusion&quot;?

Coupled with the spinning action, it is, it's like having a blowtorch-decorated wheel grinded into your midsection at high speeds. Not to mention that fire has enough power to propel Gamera through the air at Mach 3.

Unlike Gamera's fireballs, the jet-flames are consistant. Jeff proved that Irys' armor is pretty strong if it could take the spinning action of the shell, but if Gamera's jet-flames were more powerful than his fireballs, then those around him would've been burned alive. It's more like a strong current of smoke that propels Gamera into the air, as seen in earlier movies. The only real flames is from the top of the legs--which &quot;gives life&quot; to the smoke itself.

if SpaceGodzilla was able to repel Goji's beam with, Irys can match the speed.

You do know Space Godzilla's shield went up before Godzilla's ray left, correct?


spydrmanjr-

The funny thing is, Tom, is I watched the movie without getting to the final battle in the movie to figure that Ayana was linked with Irys. Why else would (not in chronological order):

a)The jewel not have shattered when Gamera severed his link with humanity more than two years before.

b)Crazylady and Ayana (unconscious) have awakened Irys from its nap and brought it to Ayana.

c)When Ayana ordered it, then Irys attacked Gamera. I mean actually did something other than defending and pushing Gamera around. Irys finally did something when she said &quot;Irys, kill!&quot;

d)Why did Irys pull his blade out of Gamera once Crazylady commanded (suicidely) that something be done?

e)The jewel is more of a sharpened, menacing shape.

f)Why was Irys awakened when Ayana touched the jewel and kept it?

g)Why is it Ayana---who possesses the jewel---unharmed whenever Irys goes on one of his &quot;draining&quot; episodes and Irys is somehow relieved to see her?

h)Ayana is posessed by the jewel and Irys later on. She forms a bond between the two. It's their link. Like Asagi and Gamera.

i)It doesn't match Gamera's eyes. (Hopefully someone gets what I'm saying)

Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Irys and Ayana were connected. They obviously were.

So what you're saying about Gamera and Ayana being connected is flawed as the movie perfectly hints that Irys and Ayana are connected. And I think my first point was enough alone to prove you wrong on that aspect.


If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Am I to blame if my subtitles were incorrect? I'd like to know what your subtitles said in the specific scene I've mentioned.

Now, who said Irys wasn't there when one of the fireballs exploded? Last I checked Gamera's plasma fire vaporized his whole hand and then some. I just turned the movie on, so I'll tell you what else happened there.

*Everyone waits*

OK. Irys' arm was definately in the area of effect and was seemingly unharmed, while having half his innards ripped out in the process. So far no sweat. The plasma fist sent up a mini Hiroshima once it exited through Irys' back and landed somewhere in the city. Damn. That's weak. (To whoever said that.)

I don't recall ever calling the plasma fist weak...

But I too just looked at that scene and do you want to know what really happened? Gamera basically fired his plasma fireball at his arm, which broke through the arm painfully and hit the ground, causing the ground to rumble. Curtains of flame rose up behind and in front of Gamera. We only saw the flames barely touch Irys' dagger before the scene switched. We never got a look at that dagger again or to see if any damage was caused to that side.

Besides, Asagi, Ayana and the others survived that too without sustaining damage--odd, ain't it?

(How did they survive the plasma fist explosion...?)

[kent]

Quote[/b] ]Gamera wasnt trying to fight Irys? Hello why do you think he was there? He wasnt selling popcorn.

The reason he was backing up was because Irys was making him back up. Or did Gamera just decide that it would be cool to back through the station just for the fun of it

Gamera wasn't trying to fight Irys. If we were, he would have been trying to hit him or shoot him with a fireball. He did neither of those. Plus Gamera wasn't giving any resistance when Irys was &quot;pushing&quot; him back. If Irys were pushing him, wouldn't you think Gamera would try to rearrange his footing so he could stop Irys from pushing him?

Quote[/b] ]Oh and getting speared like he did is called losing in HTH combat.


No it's not. Getting speared is getting speared. It's like if two cavemen were fighting with spears instead of their hands. Hand to hand is HAND TO HAND.

Quote[/b] ]Pay attention to what you read. I said his ARMS were like a humans. Meaning his upper arm starts at the shoulder and goes down to his waist where the elbow is, which then connects to the forearm which ends in claws and the forearm blade. I never said his hands were like a humans.

True I wasn't paying attention to what you inputed. But we were talking about his hands in HTH combat. Not his arms.

[spydrmanjr]

My subtitled version says the same as yours, but I really don't trust translations as much as I see the actions.

You see the dagger again, but you just have to have quick eyes to look. Also, Asagi and the others were unharmed because Gamera turned Irys around and shot the plasma fist out the other end of Irys. You intentionally saw him turn Irys and himself away from them. I saw what happened last night and the hand vaporized along with sending up an explosion, but not only was the hand caught in it, but also Irys' arm.

I thought you were observant if you went through so much time to look at the last scene.

[PyrasTerran]

Quote[/b] ]That is what I originally thought until I rewatched the scene. If the tentacles are in fact submerged in the flames, then during the film we would've been able to actually see flames crawling up the tentacles. From a horizontal shot, which is what those pics are, we only see the tentacle stretched out. Behind is the actual fireball. Now, look closely at the tentacles, especially the flesh--look at it and tell me if you see &quot;any&quot; flames enveloped around it. Then go watch the scene again in the movie and you'll see the only thing that really dances across the tentacles' flesh would be the light from the fireball itself. You don't see any hissing fires climbing up or anything.
It's like taking a little piece of rope and strapping it in front of the mouth of the fire place, with flames hissing behind. Now walk away and look at it from a distance--the light from the fire may shine off the rope, but that doesn't mean it is submerged in the fire. Which is what I've been trying to say.

That doesn't explain the last fireball, which we actually do see flames enveloping the tentacles and tips.

Quote[/b] ]And what lead you in thinking in my supposed &quot;confusion&quot;?

how you brought the explosions in the background into the subject.

Quote[/b] ]Unlike Gamera's fireballs, the jet-flames are consistant. Jeff proved that Irys' armor is pretty strong if it could take the spinning action of the shell, but if Gamera's jet-flames were more powerful than his fireballs, then those around him would've been burned alive. It's more like a strong current of smoke that propels Gamera into the air, as seen in earlier movies. The only real flames is from the top of the legs--which &quot;gives life&quot; to the smoke itself.

There isn't any smoke exhaust while Gamera is in spinning mode, only when he is taking off or landing. The lights we see in the air are the actual jetfires. And yes, people around him did burn up, when Gamera landed in Shibuya, nothing could have survived under his exhaust. Irys has organic boosters very similar to Gamera's, and when he took off from the mountains, the soldiers below him were scrapped. It's like too near to a rocket when it takes off into space.

Quote[/b] ]Gamera wasn't trying to fight Irys. If we were, he would have been trying to hit him or shoot him with a fireball. He did neither of those. Plus Gamera wasn't giving any resistance when Irys was &quot;pushing&quot; him back. If Irys were pushing him, wouldn't you think Gamera would try to rearrange his footing so he could stop Irys from pushing him?

It's easier said than done. Gamera didn't bother with the plasma balls anymore because Irys would just bat them away. And the reason he didn't *seem* to resist Irys' pushing is because Irys is simply that much stronger. He charged Irys, and Irys pushed him back like a bad habit, it was beyond his control. You can't say he wasn't trying.

Quote[/b] ]No it's not. Getting speared is getting speared. It's like if two cavemen were fighting with spears instead of their hands. Hand to hand is HAND TO HAND.

Dude, Irys has spears, not hands, he doesn't mean literal. When saying HTH in a kaiju battle, you can't rule out megalon, gigan or irys because they have no real 'hands'.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 05 2004,22:05)]That is what I originally thought until I rewatched the scene. If the tentacles are in fact submerged in the flames, then during the film we would've been able to actually see flames crawling up the tentacles. From a horizontal shot, which is what those pics are, we only see the tentacle stretched out. Behind is the actual fireball. Now, look closely at the tentacles, especially the flesh--look at it and tell me if you see &quot;any&quot; flames enveloped around it. Then go watch the scene again in the movie and you'll see the only thing that really dances across the tentacles' flesh would be the light from the fireball itself. You don't see any hissing fires climbing up or anything.

It's like taking a little piece of rope and strapping it in front of the mouth of the fire place, with flames hissing behind. Now walk away and look at it from a distance--the light from the fire may shine off the rope, but that doesn't mean it is submerged in the fire. Which is what I've been trying to say.
Tom, your not going to see it creeping up the tentacle like you suggest. That flame is moving fast, its like a wall, your only going to see what stays in front of it. Your not going to see flame slowly creep along the tentacle. That flame from the explosion is just moving way to fast for that.

Think of it like this. Look at a surfer. When riding a wave, part of the surfboard is in the wave, the water doesnt slowly creep along the surfboard, but it instead keeps it inplace and pushes it along. You cant see the part of the surfboard thats in the wave, but it is still in it.

Quote[/b] ]And tell me, is the fireball &quot;exploding&quot; when the metallic tip comes into contact with it? Phish and Jeff have already mentioned that Gamera's fireballs in this state aren't dangerous because of their &quot;heat&quot;. Not to mention if the skin was exposed to the heat surrounding the ball of plasma that triggers the huge explosion Gamera's fireballs are famous for, it wouldn't have been that severe since the tentacle pulled away within an instant. So exactly what damage did the flesh on Irys' tentacles shrug off? The mere warmth of everything that everyone in this topic had already agreed upon isn't really &quot;that&quot; dangerous?

Excuse me, but I never said that it wasnt dangerous, your putting words in my mouth and not understanding what I was saying. You were saying that if you put your hand in a fire and pull it away quickly that its ok and unharmed. Well thats all nice and fine when its just fire. But this is more than just simple flame, and you are totally ignoring the fact that there is a kinetic wave of force along with it. Which is why I told you your analogy was incorrect, because it totally ignores the force and only concentrates on the flame. As I said before, hold a stick of dynamite in your hand and let it go off, I dont think your going to be so worried about the flame in that instance.

Quote[/b] ]Unlike Gamera's fireballs, the jet-flames are consistant. Jeff proved that Irys' armor is pretty strong if it could take the spinning action of the shell, but if Gamera's jet-flames were more powerful than his fireballs, then those around him would've been burned alive. It's more like a strong current of smoke that propels Gamera into the air, as seen in earlier movies. The only real flames is from the top of the legs--which &quot;gives life&quot; to the smoke itself.

I take it Tom that you have never seen the Space Shuttle take off? Because what your suggesting means that 'smoke' is what propells the space shuttle.

The only time you see smoke is when he is flying with his head out and only the back legs being used for propulsion. When he is spinning you can clearly see the flames, its whats creating that nice blue/white line spinning with him.

So yes, not only is Irys taking a physical attack in that sequence, but he is also taking a large heat attack as well.

Quote[/b] ]If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Am I to blame if my subtitles were incorrect? I'd like to know what your subtitles said in the specific scene I've mentioned.

Tom, who's version are you watching. The ADV release? Or another?

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (kent @ April 06 2004,00:43)]Gamera wasn't trying to fight Irys. If we were, he would have been trying to hit him or shoot him with a fireball. He did neither of those. Plus Gamera wasn't giving any resistance when Irys was &quot;pushing&quot; him back. If Irys were pushing him, wouldn't you think Gamera would try to rearrange his footing so he could stop Irys from pushing him?
Hello....did you totally miss the fact that Gamera fired plasma balls at Irys while he was flying into the city to go after him? Its only what most of this discussion is about.

And Gamera was resisting he just wasnt doing a very good job of it because he was facing a more powerful monster.

Quote[/b] ]No it's not. Getting speared is getting speared. It's like if two cavemen were fighting with spears instead of their hands. Hand to hand is HAND TO HAND.

The problem is that the cave men dont have spears as part of their natural biology. Irys on the other hand does.

So those spears are part of Irys's hands &amp; forearms. Those arent something that Irys can remove. When he uses them he is fighting HTH.

Quote[/b] ]True I wasn't paying attention to what you inputed. But we were talking about his hands in HTH combat. Not his arms.

No, I was talking to Tom about how Irys can use his arms. Me and Tom were not even discussing HTH combat at all.

[Tomzilla]

spydrmanjr-

My subtitled version says the same as yours, but I really don't trust translations as much as I see the actions.

I know what you're saying. I mean, if they said Irys was really a mutated duck in the movie--I don't think I'd believe them. Just in this situation, what was said in the movie was proven by a scene that is still strange. There are only two things that could've happened: 1) The crazy chick was connecting with Gamera and gave her energy/will to pull Irys' blade out of his stomach or 2) She joined with Irys and in some telekinetic way, she had Irys pull the blade out himself.


You see the dagger again, but you just have to have quick eyes to look. Also, Asagi and the others were unharmed because Gamera turned Irys around and shot the plasma fist out the other end of Irys. You intentionally saw him turn Irys and himself away from them. I saw what happened last night and the hand vaporized along with sending up an explosion, but not only was the hand caught in it, but also Irys' arm.

The only time we actually see the dagger remotely exposed to the fireball is when the flames begin to rise from the ground right after Gamera's fireball blazed through his arm and made impact. After that, you only see Irys' arms and the dagger beginning to extend by the TV screen doesn't show what exactly happened to the part that was exposed. And now that you mention it, Gamera did just exactly what you said; Gamera turned Irys around and fired the plasma fist right through Irys and the explosion was beautiful. But after all that, did you catch a glimpse of Irys' arms afterwards? It's possible that even if the actual plasma fist torpedoed its way in the opposite direction, the flames that still managed to envelop a good portion of the train station remained.


I thought you were observant if you went through so much time to look at the last scene.

Wrong scene. I went through the &quot;tentacle-knocking&quot; parts, never looked at the final scene until you brought it up.



PyrasTerran-

That doesn't explain the last fireball, which we actually do see flames enveloping the tentacles and tips.

Alright, I think it would be best if you used one of the pictures I showed and circle exactly what tentacle. I think that's the reason of why we're not understanding the other.


how you brought the explosions in the background into the subject.

I brought them up because it was claimed that Gamera's fireballs exploded in mid-air. If they did that, then they would not have been able to hit to the ground and explode, how could they if they supposively already blew up?


There isn't any smoke exhaust while Gamera is in spinning mode, only when he is taking off or landing. The lights we see in the air are the actual jetfires. And yes, people around him did burn up, when Gamera landed in Shibuya, nothing could have survived under his exhaust. Irys has organic boosters very similar to Gamera's, and when he took off from the mountains, the soldiers below him were scrapped. It's like too near to a rocket when it takes off into space.

Well, there is smoke exhaust when its shooting out of just his leg sockets. When both his arm and leg sockets are used, then we see your jetfires. And we never actual saw people burning up when Gamera landed in Shibuya--they were tossed away like rag dolls before we could really see what happened to them. Same with the soldiers--you only see them &quot;blown&quot; away by the powerful force of the boosters, not the heat. But I see what you mean, when twirling around like a flying saucer, flames to jet out--only it seems different. Because if the jetfires are as powerful as Gamera's fireballs, it would've done a heck of a lot more.

By the way, how do you think those jetfires work at twirling Gamera around and what do you think the elements of the flames themselves is made of?




Saruman-

Tom, your not going to see it creeping up the tentacle like you suggest. That flame is moving fast, its like a wall, your only going to see what stays in front of it. Your not going to see flame slowly creep along the tentacle. That flame from the explosion is just moving way to fast for that.

More like the flames are moving away. If Irys' tentacles are lightning fast (which they are), I doubt they could've gotten caught in the flames at all. They just swooshed right in, batted the fireball away and pulled out. But do you have any pictures that could perhaps actually show this &quot;wall&quot; of fire hiding behind the tentacles? Just because the tentacles are waving right in front of the flames doesn't mean they're submerged in it.

Oh and just for kicks...

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/kaijustats/graphics/gameraheisei/gameraheisei2.jpg

I guess Gamera's body is stopping those flames.... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Think of it like this. Look at a surfer. When riding a wave, part of the surfboard is in the wave, the water doesnt slowly creep along the surfboard, but it instead keeps it inplace and pushes it along. You cant see the part of the surfboard thats in the wave, but it is still in it.

Well, for one, the surfboard is designed to prevent that from happening because of its shape. It's not exactly round. And you're comparing water with fire, two very different types of elements. Replace the water with a sea of fire instead and tell me if that surfboard is still surfing. But then again, let's switch the angles. The sea of fire is no longer on the ground, instead we just took a nice &quot;piece&quot; of it and have it floating in the air, like a cloud. (Some cloud...) Now in some strange way, you are able to place the surfboard right next to the flames and on your signal, the flames coming pushing against the board. Now what would happen? Wait, before you answer that, you must realize that even if this example is different--you must remember in the movie, Gamera's fireballs were just knocked away, so the flames that shot out weren't exactly right next to the tentacles. I'd also like to point out a past theory of yours... you once claimed if Gamera fired a fireball at Space Godzilla's shield, the flames would push up against the shield and continue to spread around it until it was inside and then make contact with Space Godzilla. Tell me, if the flames could do that to Space Godzilla's shield, then howcome they didn't spread around Irys' tentacles? The answer is the flames didn't spread around the tentacles because there was no contact between the two to begin with. One last thing, the huge fire completely dwarfed the tentacles. If they were pushing up against the tentacles, I doubt that those tiny round things was the only thing keeping the flames from submerging the tentacles completely. If that could actually happen, then the next time I see a wall of fire coming my way, I could just stand there and push up against it, since if one portion of the fire can't get through, then the REST of it can't either...



Excuse me, but I never said that it wasnt dangerous, your putting words in my mouth and not understanding what I was saying. You were saying that if you put your hand in a fire and pull it away quickly that its ok and unharmed. Well thats all nice and fine when its just fire. But this is more than just simple flame, and you are totally ignoring the fact that there is a kinetic wave of force along with it. Which is why I told you your analogy was incorrect, because it totally ignores the force and only concentrates on the flame. As I said before, hold a stick of dynamite in your hand and let it go off, I dont think your going to be so worried about the flame in that instance.

&quot;But this is more than just simple flame, and you are totally ignoring the fact that there is a kinetic wave of force along with it.&quot; - Exactly, so how was I putting words in your mouth? All I said is you didn't think Gamera's fireballs in this state aren't dangerous because of their heat. They're dangerous because of the explosive power that occurs after impact. Which is what you just said. I don't see how you missed my earlier statements of where I said it was the explosive power (i.e. - kinetic wave of force) that makes Gamera's fireballs dangerous. We pretty much agreed on this without realizing it. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


I take it Tom that you have never seen the Space Shuttle take off? Because what your suggesting means that 'smoke' is what propells the space shuttle.

I've seen a space shuttle take off and know how they do it. Pretty much the fuel is burned and produces high pressured, hot gases that drive the fuel pumps. So really, the flames you see blazing from beneath the space shuttle is the aftermath of what really is propelling the shuttle into space. I guess Gamera works the same way?


So yes, not only is Irys taking a physical attack in that sequence, but he is also taking a large heat attack as well.

Indeed, but the heat attack isn't more powerful that Gamera's fireballs. Gamera's fireballs unleash a terrible physical blow and then envelops the object/creature (that doesn't have some control over EM Fields--poor thing) in scalding flames. While the jetfires, however, touches Irys then doesn't but then it touches Irys again but then it doesn't and etc... It's like taking a blow torch and waving your hand through it. It burns, but then it would be a lot worse if you just leave it there. Only in this case, the fire of the blow torch is thinner.


Tom, who's version are you watching. The ADV release? Or another?

My version is from Video Daikaiju.


By the way, Jeff, I just noticed that when I first replied to your comments, I immediately threw your theory away without really thinking of it. I apologize for that and now that I've actually taken the time to read it (and this debate), your theory is a good one.

Now I ask a question to SandwormPhish, Jeff, Pyras and everyone else:

Assuming Irys' tentacles can use EM Fields to knock away objects that depend on electromagnetic power (and it is very likely), do you think Irys' tentacles would really need to &quot;move&quot; in order to get the job done or is movement required to deflect the oncoming attack?

[spydrmanjr]

Tom, you see the blade again. You have to play half a frame at a time to see it. I couldn't really tell it it were broken or if it was just the tip at an angle which cast a shadow. I looked at it and couldn't tell. It's at the scene where Gamera thrusts his fist into Irys' open wound.

To answer your last question:

Well, Legion's EM field never moved and it caused the plasma fire to dissipate into nothingness. I'm assuming, if we assume the EM field is correct, that Irys can control these EM fields, then if he kept them in the same spot they would've just exploded. But notice, Irys moves his tentacles in a fashion which throws the plasma fire around. I'm guessing if Legion somehow could do the same, the fireball would be deflected in a plausible direction as the other fireballs were when Irys slapped them around.

[Tomzilla]

Quote[/b] (spydrmanjr @ April 06 2004,21:03)]Tom, you see the blade again. You have to play half a frame at a time to see it. I couldn't really tell it it were broken or if it was just the tip at an angle which cast a shadow. I looked at it and couldn't tell. It's at the scene where Gamera thrusts his fist into Irys' open wound.
That's what I meant. Hmmm... I'm looking at it right now in slow motion and even then I can't tell. Darn it, if only we could somehow rotate the camera!

[spydrmanjr]

That'd make things a lot easier with off-screen objects we don't see. Who knows, there may be something we're missing just to the left or to the right. Be nice if there were some behind the scenes and promo-shots (from the actual movie) from different angles for people to look at and compare to the real scene.

[kent]

Quote[/b] ]Hello....did you totally miss the fact that Gamera fired plasma balls at Irys while he was flying into the city to go after him? Its only what most of this discussion is about.

Yes I know that. But what I was saying was that when Irys speared Gamera, Gamera was right there up close with Irys that he could have used them again. Irys would not have been able to stop the fireballs because Gamera was only a few feet ahead of it.

Quote[/b] ]And Gamera was resisting he just wasnt doing a very good job of it because he was facing a more powerful monster.

I beg to differ that Irys is that much more powerful than Gamera. Plus it was some job of Gamera resisting when he was walking backwards don't you think? He didn't show any signs of resisiting.

[Saruman]

Tomzilla

More like the flames are moving away. If Irys' tentacles are lightning fast (which they are), I doubt they could've gotten caught in the flames at all. They just swooshed right in, batted the fireball away and pulled out. But do you have any pictures that could perhaps actually show this &quot;wall&quot; of fire hiding behind the tentacles? Just because the tentacles are waving right in front of the flames doesn't mean they're submerged in it.

Tom your missing the point. If you take one of those explosions and instead of Irys's tentacles, put a straight black line in its path, whats going to happen to that line? As the wall of flame moves outward, its going to obscure that line thats behind it from view, so you cant see it. You will beable to see the line infront of the wall of flame, but beyond it you cant see it.

I guess Gamera's body is stopping those flames....

Yes, until it flows past him as his body deflects it around him, enveloping him. Oh, and once that happens, you wont beable to see Gamera.

Well, for one, the surfboard is designed to prevent that from happening because of its shape. It's not exactly round. And you're comparing water with fire, two very different types of elements. Replace the water with a sea of fire instead and tell me if that surfboard is still surfing. But then again, let's switch the angles. The sea of fire is no longer on the ground, instead we just took a nice &quot;piece&quot; of it and have it floating in the air, like a cloud. (Some cloud...) Now in some strange way, you are able to place the surfboard right next to the flames and on your signal, the flames coming pushing against the board. Now what would happen? Wait, before you answer that, you must realize that even if this example is different--you must remember in the movie, Gamera's fireballs were just knocked away, so the flames that shot out weren't exactly right next to the tentacles.

Yes, they were knocked away, but the tentacles themselves detonated them in the air, which is why you see the explosions in the air. The tentacles werent away from them when they blew up.

And the shape of the surfboard has nothing to do with the example, your missing the entire point. That being that just because you see most of it infront of the wave, that still doesnt change the fact that part of it is inside &amp; behind the wave.

I'd also like to point out a past theory of yours... you once claimed if Gamera fired a fireball at Space Godzilla's shield, the flames would push up against the shield and continue to spread around it until it was inside and then make contact with Space Godzilla. Tell me, if the flames could do that to Space Godzilla's shield, then howcome they didn't spread around Irys' tentacles?

They do spread around Irys's tentacles. But only the part that is within the explosion. Once the kinetic wave &amp; flame reached it maximun radius, it ended. It doesnt continue to travel along the tentacle. You also have to remember that Irys's tentacles dont have alot of surface area like SG's shield does. So they are covered faster by the expanding wave.

The answer is the flames didn't spread around the tentacles because there was no contact between the two to begin with. One last thing, the huge fire completely dwarfed the tentacles. If they were pushing up against the tentacles, I doubt that those tiny round things was the only thing keeping the flames from submerging the tentacles completely. If that could actually happen, then the next time I see a wall of fire coming my way, I could just stand there and push up against it, since if one portion of the fire can't get through, then the REST of it can't either...

I may be misunderstanding this. I am assuming that your suggesting that its the tiny orbs creating the EM field. And that if they can block the plasma ball they could block the wall of flame.

No that would be wrong the way I see Irys's ability working. Once the explosion happens, the EM field holding the plasma ball together is gone. Now its just a wall of kinetic force and fire. While the tentacles may be protected from most of the damage from the EM field, that isnt going to stop something so massive as that explosion. The way I see the EM filed for Irys is more like a tight fitting suite of body armor. He doesnt create a barrier like SG does with his shield. This allows him to bat away the plasma balls and makes him very resistant to energy attacks. Which would also explain why Gamera never fired a plasma ball directly at Irys the bunch of times they were in HTH range. It would also be why he could block a steady beam in the same way using multiple tentacles. It may not block the whole beam depending on it size, but it only needs to deflect enough of it to lessen the power of what seeps through to the main body.

&quot;But this is more than just simple flame, and you are totally ignoring the fact that there is a kinetic wave of force along with it.&quot; - Exactly, so how was I putting words in your mouth? All I said is you didn't think Gamera's fireballs in this state aren't dangerous because of their heat. They're dangerous because of the explosive power that occurs after impact. Which is what you just said. I don't see how you missed my earlier statements of where I said it was the explosive power (i.e. - kinetic wave of force) that makes Gamera's fireballs dangerous. We pretty much agreed on this without realizing it.

There dangerous because of the combination of both the kinetic wave of force and the heat/fire from the plasma release. Most of the examples you were using were done solely with the heat or flame and ignored the force of the explosion. &nbsp;But yes I guess we were basically in agreement on it.

I've seen a space shuttle take off and know how they do it. Pretty much the fuel is burned and produces high pressured, hot gases that drive the fuel pumps. So really, the flames you see blazing from beneath the space shuttle is the aftermath of what really is propelling the shuttle into space. I guess Gamera works the same way?

Not really, because Gamera has to sustain his flight against the earths gravity, so he has to have constant propulsion meaning his jets are always aflame. The only reason you see so much smoke is because it was a cheap way of covering up one of the things the SPFX people had so many problems with, his takeoff, landing and flight. If you watch the interview with the SPFX director on the ADV DVD's he goes over this really well.

Indeed, but the heat attack isn't more powerful that Gamera's fireballs. Gamera's fireballs unleash a terrible physical blow and then envelops the object/creature (that doesn't have some control over EM Fields--poor thing) in scalding flames. While the jetfires, however, touches Irys then doesn't but then it touches Irys again but then it doesn't and etc... It's like taking a blow torch and waving your hand through it. It burns, but then it would be a lot worse if you just leave it there. Only in this case, the fire of the blow torch is thinner.

At the rate Gamera is spinning there isnt going to be a break between each jet hitting Irys. And also this also proves how Irys's body can take a steady stream of energy exposure since he wasnt damaged by it at all. And just because the jets may not be AS powerful as a beam weapon, they are still very powerful because they have to propel Gamera. Not to mention the combined physical and energy attack on Irys combined would be pretty brutal and he suffered no damage.


By the way, Jeff, I just noticed that when I first replied to your comments, I immediately threw your theory away without really thinking of it. I apologize for that and now that I've actually taken the time to read it (and this debate), your theory is a good one.

Thanks

Assuming Irys' tentacles can use EM Fields to knock away objects that depend on electromagnetic power (and it is very likely), do you think Irys' tentacles would really need to &quot;move&quot; in order to get the job done or is movement required to deflect the oncoming attack?

It would really depend on what they are knocking away I would think. To block something like Godzilla's beam, they would need to stay with the beam infront of it as its a constant stream.

To block Gameras plasma balls though I would think minimal movement would be needed as its a projectile and could simply be angled away more easily, and once done its out of the way and the tentacle could be used for other things.

But, there is another thing with Gameras plasma balls to consider. When Irys knocked them away he wasnt just trying to deflect them, he was trying to move them far enough away so his main body wouldnt be in the explosion, atleast thats what I see when watching that sequence. Which is why he explodes them in the air. Otherwise if he doesnt they could still fall to the ground near by if he doesnt angle them enough and he could be caught in an explosion unaware.

[Tomzilla]

Saruman-

Tom your missing the point. If you take one of those explosions and instead of Irys's tentacles, put a straight black line in its path, whats going to happen to that line? As the wall of flame moves outward, its going to obscure that line thats behind it from view, so you cant see it. You will beable to see the line infront of the wall of flame, but beyond it you cant see it.

&quot;its going to obscure that line thats behind it from view, so you cant see it.&quot; - You see, this is one of the flaws in your arguement. We &quot;can't&quot; see it--in yet, you continue to try and bring up something we can't see as your arguement. So you don't know for sure. (I admit, I don't know 100% sure--but right now, what is the more likely answer? Use my past and future examples, and you'll see what I'm getting at.) You think this only because your eyes told you that there is a tentacle stretching out and there's a huge wall of fire right behind it. But I understand what you're getting at--you CAN see the black line, but you'd also be able to see if in fact the fire is enveloping the front of it. That's the nature of fire. I even dare you to take rope, hold it in front of a flame thrower and watch to see if in fact the fire washes across the back of the rope and then appears in the front--visibly.


Yes, until it flows past him as his body deflects it around him, enveloping him. Oh, and once that happens, you wont beable to see Gamera.

Now replace Gamera with one of Irys' tentacles in your statement above.

Yes, they were knocked away, but the tentacles themselves detonated them in the air, which is why you see the explosions in the air. The tentacles werent away from them when they blew up.

More like disrupted, not detonated. Detonation would've meant the fireball would've just become flames and only flames, and not retain its form to fall to the ground. The tentacles knocked the fireballs away far enough to avoid the flames that erupted.


And the shape of the surfboard has nothing to do with the example, your missing the entire point. That being that just because you see most of it infront of the wave, that still doesnt change the fact that part of it is inside &amp; behind the wave.

The shape DOES have a lot to do with your example. The shape matters because they were designed to float in the water and do exactly what you are trying to prove. Tell me this: Are Irys' tentacles designed to &quot;push back&quot; flames just by being there? You keep bringing up &quot;behind&quot; and you hope that since we didn't see what happened behind the tentacle, then your hypothesis could be correct. But it isn't. This reminds me of an important example I've been meaning to bring up:

Let's say in the distance you can see a plane approaching. From your point of view, the plane appears to be &quot;high&quot; up in the sky. Now when it gets closer, it looks as if it is descending. And when it flies over you, what happens? It looks like the plane had descended from that high altitude and flew in lower towards the ground. But really, your eyes are playing games on you. The plane never changed its altitude at all. It remained at the exact same distance above the ground.

You see flames blazing behind Irys' tentacles and think they are ensnared by it. But as I've already said, if that were true, you'd see flames enveloping the tentacles whole. That's the nature of fire! You'd notice that if you even put that scene in slow motion, the tentacles that are supposively caught in the flame's path move in yet looks exactly the same. I doubt the fire stopped in mid-air and allowed Irys' tentacles to just rub against the fire perfectly....

The flaw here with your arguement and what other people had brought up is you are confused with what tentacle hit what fireball. When in fact that same tentacle is only moving up to hit another fireball. You need to watch in slow motion and think outside what your eyes tell you. Either that or actually get a flame thrower and a rope, and do my example. If you believe whatever your eyes tell you, then don't go see a magic show.


They do spread around Irys's tentacles. But only the part that is within the explosion. Once the kinetic wave &amp; flame reached it maximun radius, it ended. It doesnt continue to travel along the tentacle. You also have to remember that Irys's tentacles dont have alot of surface area like SG's shield does. So they are covered faster by the expanding wave.

If the flames did spread around Irys' tentacles, then why didn't we see it? Right after hitting the second fireball (the one that was disrupted by Irys' EM field and let loose those flames), we literally see Irys' tentacle &quot;move away&quot; from the flames that quickly began to spread. The other tentacle that you probably think is the one being enveloped is head upwards to hit the other. Just because it moves in front of the fire doesn't mean its being enveloped by it. After all, how could they if the kinetic wave/flame reached its maximum radius?

Are you trying to prove that the maximum radius ended exactly BEHIND the tentacles?!


I may be misunderstanding this. I am assuming that your suggesting that its the tiny orbs creating the EM field. And that if they can block the plasma ball they could block the wall of flame.

If they could block the wall of flame...we would've been able to see it.


No that would be wrong the way I see Irys's ability working. Once the explosion happens, the EM field holding the plasma ball together is gone. Now its just a wall of kinetic force and fire. While the tentacles may be protected from most of the damage from the EM field, that isnt going to stop something so massive as that explosion. The way I see the EM filed for Irys is more like a tight fitting suite of body armor. He doesnt create a barrier like SG does with his shield. This allows him to bat away the plasma balls and makes him very resistant to energy attacks. Which would also explain why Gamera never fired a plasma ball directly at Irys the bunch of times they were in HTH range. It would also be why he could block a steady beam in the same way using multiple tentacles. It may not block the whole beam depending on it size, but it only needs to deflect enough of it to lessen the power of what seeps through to the main body.

So you think an EM field couldn't stop a wall of fire (which is correct) but you think Irys' tentacles, alone, can (which is incorrect)? It looks as if you're trying to confuse the hell out of me so I don't see the flaw in your arguement.... Though the flaw had already been revealed. Several times.


Not really, because Gamera has to sustain his flight against the earths gravity, so he has to have constant propulsion meaning his jets are always aflame. The only reason you see so much smoke is because it was a cheap way of covering up one of the things the SPFX people had so many problems with, his takeoff, landing and flight. If you watch the interview with the SPFX director on the ADV DVD's he goes over this really well.

Well, that's exactly what a Space Shuttle does until it escapes Earth's gravity and has no use with the main boosters anymore. I estimate Gamera has a lot more energy when he flies around than a Space Shuttle. That says a lot.


At the rate Gamera is spinning there isnt going to be a break between each jet hitting Irys. And also this also proves how Irys's body can take a steady stream of energy exposure since he wasnt damaged by it at all. And just because the jets may not be AS powerful as a beam weapon, they are still very powerful because they have to propel Gamera. Not to mention the combined physical and energy attack on Irys combined would be pretty brutal and he suffered no damage.

Technically, there is a break for like a split second. (Even shorter than that.) Also, if the jetfires are powerful enough to propel Gamera, that means whenever Gamera circled in to ram Irys with his shell and use the jetfires, that means the jetifres would've literally &quot;bounced&quot; Gamera away from making any real damage that the rams were capable of. Because right when those jetfires hit Irys' armor, they would cram up against the armor itself and push off. That's why you see Gamera constantly &quot;falling back behind&quot; and then spin right back in.

[PyrasTerran]

Quote[/b] ]I beg to differ that Irys is that much more powerful than Gamera. Plus it was some job of Gamera resisting when he was walking backwards don't you think? He didn't show any signs of resisiting.

He was walking backwards because if he didn't, he would have fallen on his back, think about it. As much as he can try resisting, if he can't budge Irys then he can't.

Quote[/b] ]Yes I know that. But what I was saying was that when Irys speared Gamera, Gamera was right there up close with Irys that he could have used them again. Irys would not have been able to stop the fireballs because Gamera was only a few feet ahead of it.


You have to ask yourself, why would Gamera go through the trouble of blasting his own arm off, to take the plasma balls being launched at him and focus the attack back into Irys' open wound, if he could have shot a plasma ball at him in the face, and pull the armblade out of his hand?

It's a good possibility that Gamera didn't attack Irys with a plasma ball face-to-face because he knew it wouldn't do any good.

[Saruman]

Maybe this will help.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/irystentacle.jpg

This is one of the explosions. Notice where the tentacle is.

Edit: Also notice you see some small chunks of burning material falling from the sky under the explosion.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/images/saruman/tentacle1.jpg

This is a close up of that. Now notice you se the tentacle going into the explosion, but you dont see any &quot;ARROW HEAD&quot; tip. And remember that the tips of Irys tentacles are larger then where the tip meets the tentacle and you see no size difference in the diameter of the tentacle. Which means that part of the tentacle is inside the explosion.

[kent]

Quote[/b] ]You have to ask yourself, why would Gamera go through the trouble of blasting his own arm off, to take the plasma balls being launched at him and focus the attack back into Irys' open wound, if he could have shot a plasma ball at him in the face, and pull the armblade out of his hand?

It's a good possibility that Gamera didn't attack Irys with a plasma ball face-to-face because he knew it wouldn't do any good.

My bad, I wasn't making myself clear. I meant at the beginning of their battle when Irys speared Gamera's abdomen. Oh well. No biggie. ^Still a good explanation there PT. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 07 2004,03:34)]&quot;its going to obscure that line thats behind it from view, so you cant see it.&quot; - You see, this is one of the flaws in your arguement. We &quot;can't&quot; see it--in yet, you continue to try and bring up something we can't see as your arguement. So you don't know for sure. (I admit, I don't know 100% sure--but right now, what is the more likely answer? Use my past and future examples, and you'll see what I'm getting at.) You think this only because your eyes told you that there is a tentacle stretching out and there's a huge wall of fire right behind it. But I understand what you're getting at--you CAN see the black line, but you'd also be able to see if in fact the fire is enveloping the front of it. That's the nature of fire. I even dare you to take rope, hold it in front of a flame thrower and watch to see if in fact the fire washes across the back of the rope and then appears in the front--visibly.
Tom, thats what your not understanding, the fact that you cant see the rest of the tentacle MEANS it is inside the explosion, thats the whole point.

If you stick your arm down to your elbow into a barrel of oil, you cant see your arm from the elbow to the hand. Then you turn around as say that your arm isnt in the barrel of oil. Just because you cant see it doesnt mean that your arm isnt in that barrel of oil. Its the same thing with the explosion and Irys's tentacles.

Quote[/b] ]Now replace Gamera with one of Irys' tentacles in your statement above.

Thats exactly what I have been telling you the whole time.

Quote[/b] ]More like disrupted, not detonated. Detonation would've meant the fireball would've just become flames and only flames, and not retain its form to fall to the ground. The tentacles knocked the fireballs away far enough to avoid the flames that erupted.

The explosion in the air was larger than the explosions on the ground, so most of it was detonated in the air.

Quote[/b] ]The shape DOES have a lot to do with your example. The shape matters because they were designed to float in the water and do exactly what you are trying to prove. Tell me this: Are Irys' tentacles designed to &quot;push back&quot; flames just by being there? You keep bringing up &quot;behind&quot; and you hope that since we didn't see what happened behind the tentacle, then your hypothesis could be correct. But it isn't. This reminds me of an important example I've been meaning to bring up:

Let's say in the distance you can see a plane approaching. From your point of view, the plane appears to be &quot;high&quot; up in the sky. Now when it gets closer, it looks as if it is descending. And when it flies over you, what happens? It looks like the plane had descended from that high altitude and flew in lower towards the ground. But really, your eyes are playing games on you. The plane never changed its altitude at all. It remained at the exact same distance above the ground.

You see flames blazing behind Irys' tentacles and think they are ensnared by it. But as I've already said, if that were true, you'd see flames enveloping the tentacles whole. That's the nature of fire! You'd notice that if you even put that scene in slow motion, the tentacles that are supposively caught in the flame's path move in yet looks exactly the same. I doubt the fire stopped in mid-air and allowed Irys' tentacles to just rub against the fire perfectly....

The flaw here with your arguement and what other people had brought up is you are confused with what tentacle hit what fireball. When in fact that same tentacle is only moving up to hit another fireball. You need to watch in slow motion and think outside what your eyes tell you. Either that or actually get a flame thrower and a rope, and do my example. If you believe whatever your eyes tell you, then don't go see a magic show.

Your still not getting it. You seem to think that if the fire touches Irys's tentacles its just going to speed along them until it reaches his main body, faster than the explosion moves the fire, that isnt going to happen. The fire is only moving because of the force of the explosion. Its not burning Irys's tentacles so the flame cant move along them.

You also seem to think that just because you see some of Irys's tentacle outlined infront of the explosion that that means the entire tentacle has to be infront of the explosion, which isnt the case. You only see what is outside of the explosion, you dont see what is within the explosion because the fire obscures it from view.

And yes I have watched it in slow motion and I have captured the entire sequence one frame at a time, which I have on my computer right now.

The flame thrower and rope example is also one that doesnt work. The reason being is that your using a rope which burns very quickly, to represent a tentacle that doesnt burn slowly if it burns at all. Try doing the same thing and using a steel rod. Guess what, you cant see the steel rod behind the flame and the flame doesnt travel along the steel rod. But guess what, just because you cant see the steel rod behind the flame doesnt mean it isnt there.

Quote[/b] ]If the flames did spread around Irys' tentacles, then why didn't we see it? Right after hitting the second fireball (the one that was disrupted by Irys' EM field and let loose those flames), we literally see Irys' tentacle &quot;move away&quot; from the flames that quickly began to spread. The other tentacle that you probably think is the one being enveloped is head upwards to hit the other. Just because it moves in front of the fire doesn't mean its being enveloped by it. After all, how could they if the kinetic wave/flame reached its maximum radius?

You do see it, but you dont see it like your suggesting. That flame is moving so fast because of the kinetic wave pushing it, that you will never see the flame creep along the tentacle like you are suggesting, its impossible for it to do that.

Throw a rock into a pond, as soon as it breaks the water its gone, you cant see it any longer. Now throw a pole into the same pond so it will be half in and half out of the water. As that pole goes into the water you cant see the part thats below the surface, and as it sinks deeper, more of the pole becomes obscured. But it happens so fast, that you dont see the water moving along the pole as it sinks. And once that pole touches the bottom and stops moving, the rest of the pole above the water is still visible. Now, does this mean that the part of the pole that is below the waters surface isnt there? Because thats what your suggesting with Irys's tentacles. Just because part of it is outside of the explosion, doesnt mean that the entire thing is.

Quote[/b] ]Are you trying to prove that the maximum radius ended exactly BEHIND the tentacles?!

The explosion has a maximum radius. Anything that isnt within the explosion but is infront of the view of the explosion is going to be silhouetted against it. &nbsp;Which is why you can see the majority of the tentacle, the explosion is behind it. But if you follow the tentacle, it eventually becomes obscured by the explosion meaning that part of it is within the same explosion.

Quote[/b] ]If they could block the wall of flame...we would've been able to see it.

Ummm, this didnt answer what I was asking. I was asking if what I assumed you were getting at was correct for me to assume or if you meant something else.

Quote[/b] ]So you think an EM field couldn't stop a wall of fire (which is correct) but you think Irys' tentacles, alone, can (which is incorrect)? It looks as if you're trying to confuse the hell out of me so I don't see the flaw in your arguement.... Though the flaw had already been revealed. Several times.

Your not paying attention to what I said, and there is no flaw in what I said. Irys cant stop a wall of fire like that at all.

Look at it like this. Irys's EM field is like a suite of body armor. It flows around his body, like if you were to put on a scuba suite the scuba suite would be your EM field for example. Irys cant project the EM field to create a shield in the way that SG creates his shield. He simply uses it to deflect things like energy projectiles and beams, as they have EM fields, by moving his tentacles infront of it or swatting it away. His EM field synchs with the incoming EM field allowing him to redirect it without exploding, or he can chose to explode it right there by disrupting the EM field.

If he doesnt use a tentacle to deflect something then hes not going to deflect it. Though I guess it is possible it could deflect off his main body because that would also posess an EM field, but that would still result in it hitting right next to him and the resulting explosion hitting him which is what hes trying to avoid, which is why you see him knocking them away with his tentacles.

Quote[/b] ]Well, that's exactly what a Space Shuttle does until it escapes Earth's gravity and has no use with the main boosters anymore. I estimate Gamera has a lot more energy when he flies around than a Space Shuttle. That says a lot.

Exactly, his energy supply is pretty much limitless because he draws his power from the earth.

Quote[/b] ]Technically, there is a break for like a split second. (Even shorter than that.) Also, if the jetfires are powerful enough to propel Gamera, that means whenever Gamera circled in to ram Irys with his shell and use the jetfires, that means the jetifres would've literally &quot;bounced&quot; Gamera away from making any real damage that the rams were capable of. Because right when those jetfires hit Irys' armor, they would cram up against the armor itself and push off. That's why you see Gamera constantly &quot;falling back behind&quot; and then spin right back in.

True, but its not going to really lessen the impact from the rams because the shell extends out farther than the jets do, especially when spinning. If anything they probably hit at almost exactly the same time. He does stay in contact for a bit before he moves off and comes back for another ram. Either way your still taking a good physical and energy hit at the same time.

[Kiryu goji]

Quote[/b] (Radenoff @ Mar. 31 2004,22:25)]ohh im sorry, No I dont think she could take a good soild beam to the chest.
Wha? SHE? What makes everyone think Irys is a she just because of the **** american DVD special feature? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[PyrasTerran]

It's a reoccuring thing, Kiryu Goji. I believe Irys should be referred to as male, but there are alot of people who for some reason think he looks female, and even believe he is female.

But his gender isn't the point of discussion in this thread.

[Tomzilla]

Saruman-

Tom, thats what your not understanding, the fact that you cant see the rest of the tentacle MEANS it is inside the explosion, thats the whole point.

Not really. You realize there are so many options and possible things that could've happened to contradict exactly what you just said?


If you stick your arm down to your elbow into a barrel of oil, you cant see your arm from the elbow to the hand. Then you turn around as say that your arm isnt in the barrel of oil. Just because you cant see it doesnt mean that your arm isnt in that barrel of oil. Its the same thing with the explosion and Irys's tentacles.

Only the difference here is Irys isn't sticking anything in at all. Why would he want to? If you watch the movie in slow motion, frame by frame, and I know you do, you'll see that when the flames begin to leak from the fireball, Irys' tentacles are going about as fast.


Thats exactly what I have been telling you the whole time.

And exactly what have you been saying? One moment, you're saying the flames literally stopped behind Irys' tentacles (out of our view) and was eating away at the flesh (still out of our view) and now I just gave an example of Gamera standing behind a cloud of fire and say: &quot;I guess Gamera is stopping that wall of fire?&quot; And then YOU say the fire would ENGULF Gamera to the point of where we can't see him. Now, once again, replace Irys' tentacle with Gamera in that picture. &quot;Engulf&quot; being the keyword there (Also, not being able to &quot;see&quot; it)! The scene we're talking about in G3 involves the flames heading straight towards Irys' tentacles. In yet you've claimed, time and time again, that Irys' tentacles are somehow STOPPING the wall of fire. But now you are saying that Irys' tentacles were engulfed in the flames?! Make up your mind.


The explosion in the air was larger than the explosions on the ground, so most of it was detonated in the air.

Not from what I saw.


Your still not getting it. You seem to think that if the fire touches Irys's tentacles its just going to speed along them until it reaches his main body, faster than the explosion moves the fire, that isnt going to happen. The fire is only moving because of the force of the explosion. Its not burning Irys's tentacles so the flame cant move along them.

And let me guess: The fire that was being pushed by the explosion stopped just behind the tentacle before it could circle around it because &quot;you&quot; said so?


You also seem to think that just because you see some of Irys's tentacle outlined infront of the explosion that that means the entire tentacle has to be infront of the explosion, which isnt the case. You only see what is outside of the explosion, you dont see what is within the explosion because the fire obscures it from view.

And if it obscures it from view, how could we see the outline if that is exactly where the fire would being coming from as it engulfs the rest of the tentacle? This is how things disappear entirely when caught by a huge wall of fire.


And yes I have watched it in slow motion and I have captured the entire sequence one frame at a time, which I have on my computer right now.

By all means, share with us. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


The flame thrower and rope example is also one that doesnt work. The reason being is that your using a rope which burns very quickly, to represent a tentacle that doesnt burn slowly if it burns at all. Try doing the same thing and using a steel rod. Guess what, you cant see the steel rod behind the flame and the flame doesnt travel along the steel rod. But guess what, just because you cant see the steel rod behind the flame doesnt mean it isnt there.

Well, I'm not the one who used an example involving a surfboard doing what it was designed to do--float above water and not sink. But hey, last time I checked, flesh wasn't fire proof either. But even if I can't see a steel rod consumed by flames and know it is still there, that means I would've seen it get enveloped from the start. This doesn't happen in Irys' case.


You do see it, but you dont see it like your suggesting. That flame is moving so fast because of the kinetic wave pushing it, that you will never see the flame creep along the tentacle like you are suggesting, its impossible for it to do that.

So now you are agreeing with me that the flames spread around Irys' tentacles? Wow...

But back to the point, is that really your defense? &quot;That flame is moving so fast because of the kinetic wave pushing it, that you will never see the flame creep along the tentacle like you are suggesting, its impossible for it to do that.&quot; - That it's impossible to see it? I'm sorry, but that holds no real ground in this arguement. Please try to bring up a defense that actually depends on us &quot;seeing&quot; it happening in the movie, not mysteriously thinking of its possibility despite what we see in the movie makes it really hard to believe.


Throw a rock into a pond, as soon as it breaks the water its gone, you cant see it any longer.

Depends on the depth of the area you're throwing at.

Now throw a pole into the same pond so it will be half in and half out of the water. As that pole goes into the water you cant see the part thats below the surface, and as it sinks deeper, more of the pole becomes obscured. But it happens so fast, that you dont see the water moving along the pole as it sinks. And once that pole touches the bottom and stops moving, the rest of the pole above the water is still visible. Now, does this mean that the part of the pole that is below the waters surface isnt there? Because thats what your suggesting with Irys's tentacles. Just because part of it is outside of the explosion, doesnt mean that the entire thing is.

Uhhh...I've never suggested Irys' tentacles to be in the flames period. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But Jeff, bring up an example that involves a horizontal angle. You keep bringing up examples that involves objects going straight down--this isn't the case in the scene we're discussing.


The explosion has a maximum radius. Anything that isnt within the explosion but is infront of the view of the explosion is going to be silhouetted against it. Which is why you can see the majority of the tentacle, the explosion is behind it. But if you follow the tentacle, it eventually becomes obscured by the explosion meaning that part of it is within the same explosion.

Or there was a huge flash from the explosion that blinded us for that one frame. And during that scene, you see many flashes occuring. It happens. But why do you think the maximum radius of the explosion ended right behind Irys' tentacles? Does it end behind Irys' tentacles so it could help your arguement? The movie itself shows that your are wrong. Read more to see why.


Ummm, this didnt answer what I was asking. I was asking if what I assumed you were getting at was correct for me to assume or if you meant something else.

Ah, I was never implying that Irys' electromagnetic fields had anything to do with that scene...


Your not paying attention to what I said, and there is no flaw in what I said. Irys cant stop a wall of fire like that at all.

So he &quot;can't&quot; stop a wall of fire like that? In yet you've said Irys' tentacle did do just that--it stopped it from rushing forward to engulf the tentacle entirely.


True, but its not going to really lessen the impact from the rams because the shell extends out farther than the jets do, especially when spinning. If anything they probably hit at almost exactly the same time. He does stay in contact for a bit before he moves off and comes back for another ram. Either way your still taking a good physical and energy hit at the same time.

You indeed would be taking huge physical blows and energy at the same time. But there are two reasons of why Irys attacked right after: 1) To get to Ayana and follow through his main objective at achieving power and 2) To stop this turtle before it could cause any real significent damage.

This is one of the explosions. Notice where the tentacle is.

Fascinating. Now show another picture of the frame that pops up right after. You'll see that the metallic tip is not engulfed or being touched by the fire at all. But Jeff, you won't believe what I just noticed! I was wrong on one thing...the tentacle we see on the right--the one we thought made the impact with the fireball--didn't hit it. I just noticed it and I see how it happened...the left tentacle moved in really fast and as both seem to get ready to hit the fireball, the left tentacle (one we're debating about) is REALLY the one that smacks the fireball away.

The picture you showed us proves that. The only thing making contact with the flames/fireball is the metal tip, because after hitting that way, in the very next frame--the fireball is moving away from the tentacle (and the tentacle, to prove that it was the one that hit the fireball, is following the same direction) and you can visibly see the metal tip--unharmed and not being even touched. Because how could the flames in that picture above be touching the flesh--if an EM field is present to put a stop to it as it collided with the fireball itself?

Really interesting.



OH! And Spydrmanjr, concerning the part of where we could &quot;barely&quot; see Irys' daggers after Gamera fired his plasma fireball at the ground and weren't sure if it had been consumed by the flames--well, I looked REALLY closely... (MY EYES hurt... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) you could see that some parts of the dagger is black, suggesting that about half of the blade was consumed by the flames. Not only that, but as Gamera plunged his plasma fist through Irys' stomach, as the flames washed across the armor and were sucked in, the armor was BADLY burnt as well. Makes you wonder if Irys could take a plasma fireball or two...the force of the explosive power of the fireball breaking the armor and the intense heat burning it.

[PyrasTerran]

Quote[/b] ]OH! And Spydrmanjr, concerning the part of where we could &quot;barely&quot; see Irys' daggers after Gamera fired his plasma fireball at the ground and weren't sure if it had been consumed by the flames--well, I looked REALLY closely... (MY EYES hurt... ) you could see that some parts of the dagger is black, suggesting that about half of the blade was consumed by the flames. Not only that, but as Gamera plunged his plasma fist through Irys' stomach, as the flames washed across the armor and were sucked in, the armor was BADLY burnt as well. Makes you wonder if Irys could take a plasma fireball or two...the force of the explosive power of the fireball breaking the armor and the intense heat burning it.

Are you talking about Irys' armor color? His chest armor color is blackish to begin with, that's not from fire. But just because something turns black from fire doesn't mean it gets badly burned.

[spydrmanjr]

No, it was being burnt. Surprised no one noticed that whenever they watched the movie. I saw it pretty well. The flesh and armor warped and was scorched because of being burned from the inside and out. What we need to know is how much heat is inside those plasma fireballs.

[PyrasTerran]

Oh, I thought he was talking about damage done outside of the wound, not inside that led to external damage, my bad. Yes, now that you mention it, he does start to lose it once the fist is in him.

However, it's not even the force that is important, it's how it was done. If you put a firecracker next to a plastic small container, it will send the container flying in the other direction. If you put the firecracker in the small plastic container, it can pop a hole in it. The whole fact of exploding from the inside out is the reason it worked.

[Saruman]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 07 2004,23:11)]Tomzilla

Not really. You realize there are so many options and possible things that could've happened to contradict exactly what you just said?
Really? Please tell me what those &quot;so many options&quot; are.

Quote[/b] ]Only the difference here is Irys isn't sticking anything in at all. Why would he want to? If you watch the movie in slow motion, frame by frame, and I know you do, you'll see that when the flames begin to leak from the fireball, Irys' tentacles are going about as fast.

I see you ignored the picture above or is that one of the &quot;so many options&quot; that you seem to have.

Quote[/b] ]And exactly what have you been saying? One moment, you're saying the flames literally stopped behind Irys' tentacles (out of our view) and was eating away at the flesh (still out of our view) and now I just gave an example of Gamera standing behind a cloud of fire and say: &quot;I guess Gamera is stopping that wall of fire?&quot; And then YOU say the fire would ENGULF Gamera to the point of where we can't see him. Now, once again, replace Irys' tentacle with Gamera in that picture. &quot;Engulf&quot; being the keyword there (Also, not being able to &quot;see&quot; it)! The scene we're talking about in G3 involves the flames heading straight towards Irys' tentacles. In yet you've claimed, time and time again, that Irys' tentacles are somehow STOPPING the wall of fire. But now you are saying that Irys' tentacles were engulfed in the flames?! Make up your mind.

You obvisouly have not understood one thing I have said. First, I never said the tentacles stopped or would stop the wall of fire, or would you care to show me where exactly I said they would? You are clearly not comprehending what I am saying.

Lets break it down for you.

1. An explosion has a MAXIMUM radius that it will not go beyond.

2. Something that is within the explosion is obscured from view.

3. Something that is in front of the explosion outside of the radius or moving away from it fast enough to stay ahead of it you can see.

4. If you have something that is long enough, like Irys's tentacles, it can be both 2 &amp; 3 above at the same time. As part of the tentacle can be within the explosion and the rest of it outside of the radius of the explosion.

Does that make it easier for you to understand because it cant get much simplier than that.

Your Gamera example doesnt work the same way because he isnt as long as a tentacle from Irys. As long as Gamera stays infront of the flame, you can see him. That doesnt mean hes stopping the flame because he could be a great distance from it. If hes to close to the flame, once it flows over him, you wouldnt beable to see him. Unlike one of Irys's tentacles which are exceptionally long. Hell if Irys wanted to, he could send a tentacle straight through the explosion so you could see both ends of the tentacle, the tip and the spot on his body where it meets his shoulder, with the middle being obscured from view because of the explosion.

Quote[/b] ]Not from what I saw.

Then you may want to check again. Oh, and dont mistake the fire that spread between buildings as parts of the explosion.

Quote[/b] ]And let me guess: The fire that was being pushed by the explosion stopped just behind the tentacle before it could circle around it because &quot;you&quot; said so?

No, because physics dictates that the explosion has a set limit based on the force of the explosion. Thats why when someone tests a nuke it doesnt just engulf the whole planet.

Lets say that Irys's tentacles can reach up to 300 meters maximum. Now if an explosion only has a 150 meter maximum radius, that means that Irys could stick a tentacle into the center of the explosion, which would be 75 meters from perimeter to center. Now what happens to the other 225 meters of the tentacle that isnt within the explosion? Its not hard to figure out.

Quote[/b] ]And if it obscures it from view, how could we see the outline if that is exactly where the fire would being coming from as it engulfs the rest of the tentacle? This is how things disappear entirely when caught by a huge wall of fire.

OMG. Because your seeing the part of the tentacle that is NOT within the explosion, which is why you can see it. I cant believe this is so hard for you to figure out.

Heres another example to help you. Take a piece of paper and poke a pencil through it until it is half way through the paper. Now hold the paper up in front of you and what do you see? You see the half of the pencil that is not on the other side of the paper, and guess what, you cant see the half of the pencil that is on the other side of the paper.

Now by the reasoning your using, the pencil isnt halfway through the paper because you can see half of it on one side. The entire pencil is actually infront of the piece of paper instead of halfway through it. Now does that make sense to you? Because it sure doesnt make any sense to me, but hey its your logic.

Quote[/b] ]By all means, share with us. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

No thanks, each image is like 2 Megs. I am not going to spend that much time saving them in a different format to make them of a decent size. That would take a long time.

Quote[/b] ]Well, I'm not the one who used an example involving a surfboard doing what it was designed to do--float above water and not sink. But hey, last time I checked, flesh wasn't fire proof either. But even if I can't see a steel rod consumed by flames and know it is still there, that means I would've seen it get enveloped from the start. This doesn't happen in Irys' case.

Again you totally missed the point of the example and went off an something that had no bearing on it. So you think you would see the steel rod get enveloped in the explosion? Gee you must have better eyesight than an eagle. You know its getting enveloped, but its happening so fast that its impossible to actually see it happening, the human eye has a maximum FPS that it can process, which I want to say is 40 FPS, but I believe it is a bit lower. An explosion even a small one is moving faster than that. The only way you would see it is if its enveloping an object large enough to make it alter its course, like a building. In the case of Irys's tentacles, they are not even remotely large enough to make that wall of fire alter its course so you could see what you are suggesting.

Quote[/b] ]So now you are agreeing with me that the flames spread around Irys' tentacles? Wow...

I have been saying that the whole time, because that is why part of the tentacle is within the explosion. The flame has to pass it for it to be within it.

Your the one that has been saying the tentacle isnt within the explosion, not me. Did you forget which side of the discussion you are on? I'll help you out, your on the side saying that Irys's tentacles WEREN'T in the explosion.

Quote[/b] ]But back to the point, is that really your defense? &quot;That flame is moving so fast because of the kinetic wave pushing it, that you will never see the flame creep along the tentacle like you are suggesting, its impossible for it to do that.&quot; - That it's impossible to see it? I'm sorry, but that holds no real ground in this arguement. Please try to bring up a defense that actually depends on us &quot;seeing&quot; it happening in the movie, not mysteriously thinking of its possibility despite what we see in the movie makes it really hard to believe.

Your the one saying it should be creeping along the tentacle and that because we dont see it do that means the tentacle isnt in the explosion? Would you care to provide proof as to why that is?

I have tried explaining it to you so many different ways it isnt even funny anymore, its getting sad that your not understanding it. *Even looking at the film frame by frame you cant see what you are suggesting, because the explosion is moving faster than the speed of the film. And if its moving faster than the speed of the film, its sure as hell moving faster than the human eye can perceive.

Its like a tidal wave hitting a small outcropping of rocks on the beach. You know its flowing over them, but you cant actually see it because it happens to fast. But does that mean that its not happening? By the logic your using, that outcropping of rocks was never hit by the tidal wave because you cant see the water creep over it.

Quote[/b] ]Depends on the depth of the area you're throwing at.

Again you completely miss the point.

Quote[/b] ]Uhhh...I've never suggested Irys' tentacles to be in the flames period. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Really? Then you didnt say this in your last post?
&quot;So now you are agreeing with me that the flames spread around Irys' tentacles? Wow.&quot;

Guess you dont know what your saying.

Quote[/b] ]But Jeff, bring up an example that involves a horizontal angle. You keep bringing up examples that involves objects going straight down--this isn't the case in the scene we're discussing.

The angle doesnt matter, its completely meaningless. The concept is still applied the same way no matter what angle you want to give it. Hell turn it upside down, diagonal, spin it on the ground, it doesnt matter. But if you want a horizontal example i'll give you one.

Take a 10 foot by 10 foot square of jet black styrafoam that no light can penetrate and you cant see inside of. Now take a 20 foot pole that is 3 inches around and shove it from one side to the center of the square, horizontally. How much of it is sticking in the square? Now how much of the pole is sticking out of the square? Can you see the pole infront of the square? Because you see the pole infront of the square does that mean that none of the pole is inside the square?

Get the idea now?

Quote[/b] ]Or there was a huge flash from the explosion that blinded us for that one frame. And during that scene, you see many flashes occuring. It happens. But why do you think the maximum radius of the explosion ended right behind Irys' tentacles? Does it end behind Irys' tentacles so it could help your arguement? The movie itself shows that your are wrong. Read more to see why.

Of course there is a flash, its an explosion. But the pictures I posted which you ignored were well after any flash occured, which is something else you are ignoring.

And when did I say the explosion ended right behind Irys's tentacles? I said the explosion has a maximum radius, which go figure, by the laws of physics it does. Or is science completely wrong on this matter. Teach me for going to school.

I cant wait to see how the movie proves me wrong, heedless of the fact that you have completely misunderstood everything I have said.

Quote[/b] ]Ah, I was never implying that Irys' electromagnetic fields had anything to do with that scene...

Then what in the world was your point for that comment because it didnt and still doesnt make any sense.

Quote[/b] ]So he &quot;can't&quot; stop a wall of fire like that? In yet you've said Irys' tentacle did do just that--it stopped it from rushing forward to engulf the tentacle entirely.

OMG, Tom I cant believe your really being this dense. I never said what you seem to think im saying. Your the one who has been arguing that if the tentacle was within the explosion the flame would rush along the entire length of the tentacle. All im saying is that, that would never happen. The explosion has a maximum radius that it doesnt go beyond. Any part of the tentacle that is sticking outside of that radius, is not going to be engulfed by the flames. It can only engulf what is within its radius.

Heres another example for you, again. Lets say you have a 20 foot radius explosion. That explosion is centered on a 60 foot steel pole. *Now that explosion coveres the center 20 feet of the pole, leaving 20 feet on each end of the pole outside of the explosion. That explosion doesnt travel to both ends of the pole because it isnt capable of doing that. It only has the force necessary to reach its maximum radius of 20 feet where it stops.

Quote[/b] ]You indeed would be taking huge physical blows and energy at the same time. But there are two reasons of why Irys attacked right after: 1) To get to Ayana and follow through his main objective at achieving power and 2) To stop this turtle before it could cause any real significent damage.

That would be correct, but it still doesnt change the fact that Irys suffered no visible wounds or showed any sign of damage after the attack. He continued on exactly like he always did. If that was Godzilla everyone would be screaming how tough he was because of that. But since its not, and its a Daiei Kaiju people have to find a way of it being a sign of weakness. Which you just tried to do by saying he only counter attacked so he wouldnt be hurt. Gee, isnt that the normal reaction of Kaiju when they are attacked, to defentd themselves.

I guess those D-03 missiles that hit GMK Goji really hurt him pretty bad then. Because at no other time has a Kaiju turned and attacked ANY HUMAN attackers like he did in that scene. Thanks for showing how weak he is, or are you going to actually argue for Goji when your own logic is used against him exactly the same way you used it against Irys.

Quote[/b] ]Fascinating. Now show another picture of the frame that pops up right after. You'll see that the metallic tip is not engulfed or being touched by the fire at all. But Jeff, you won't believe what I just noticed! I was wrong on one thing...the tentacle we see on the right--the one we thought made the impact with the fireball--didn't hit it. I just noticed it and I see how it happened...the left tentacle moved in really fast and as both seem to get ready to hit the fireball, the left tentacle (one we're debating about) is REALLY the one that smacks the fireball away.

Tom, the plasma ball is already exploded, there isnt another tentacle close to the explosion. The one that you see in the picture is the ONLY tentacle that touches that plasma ball, which is the second one that was blocked. I just went through that whole scene frame by frame and no other tentacle touches it. All 3 of the other tentacles are moving away from that plasma ball infact.

Quote[/b] ]The picture you showed us proves that. The only thing making contact with the flames/fireball is the metal tip, because after hitting that way, in the very next frame--the fireball is moving away from the tentacle (and the tentacle, to prove that it was the one that hit the fireball, is following the same direction) and you can visibly see the metal tip--unharmed and not being even touched.

Sorry Tom, but the plasma ball isnt moving away from the tentacle in the next frame. you dont see the part of the plasma ball appear again until about 18-20 frames later when you see it going to the ground. I just went through and recaptured the entire sequence frame by frame. Its 25 frames from when I started to when I stopped and only that one tentacle ever hits the plasma ball and you actually see it move through the explosion. I will post the entire sequence once I get the chance, it wont be for a few days because of work though.

Quote[/b] ]Because how could the flames in that picture above be touching the flesh--if an EM field is present to put a stop to it as it collided with the fireball itself?

Thats what ive been trying to tell you. Its a combination of Irys's toughness and the EM field I believe he uses. The flame can engulf the tentacle but its not burning it, which is why it cant travel along the tentacle like you suggest.

[Tomzilla]

(In an atttempt to have smaller posts...)


Saruman-

Really? Please tell me what those &quot;so many options&quot; are.

Let's see:

-A flash of light from the explosion

-Irys' metallic tips could easily disappear in the light, because it would glisten off its metal surface and make it nearly impossible to see. (Of course, we do see Irys' tips in later pics, waving happily in front of the fire... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

-Irys actually can generate mystical energies that were protecting the tips from exposure to the flame in some way.

Or the one I prefer: The reason we don't see the tip is because it is hitting the fireball and the impact, caused the flames to pop up--only when we see the flames expanding, the tip is already revealing itself and no areas on the tentacle is being exposed to the flames.


I see you ignored the picture above or is that one of the &quot;so many options&quot; that you seem to have.

So I if someone decides to comment on the picture at the &quot;end&quot; of their post they're ignoring it?


You obvisouly have not understood one thing I have said. First, I never said the tentacles stopped or would stop the wall of fire, or would you care to show me where exactly I said they would? You are clearly not comprehending what I am saying.

I quote you: &quot;That flame is moving fast, its like a wall, your only going to see what stays in front of it. Your not going to see flame slowly creep along the tentacle. That flame from the explosion is just moving way to fast for that.&quot;

Then I said: &quot;I guess Gamera's body is stopping those flames....&quot;

You reply: &quot;Yes, until it flows past him as his body deflects it around him, enveloping him. Oh, and once that happens, you wont beable to see Gamera.&quot;

I then say: &quot;Now replace Gamera with one of Irys' tentacles in your statement above.&quot;

Finally, you go: &quot;Thats exactly what I have been telling you the whole time.&quot;

Which lead me to conclude that you somehow think Irys' tentacle can stop a wall of fire. If you can see the explosion and Irys' tentacle, naturally you'd be able to see if the flames cover Irys' tentacle at least for a second (or even less). You mentioned the flame would be going so fast after the explosion that we wouldn't see it happen, thus Irys' tentacle could've been engulfed and we wouldn't have seen it cause the fire disappeared. But I gave an example with Gamera and you said we wouldn't be able to see him as a result.


Lets break it down for you.

1. An explosion has a MAXIMUM radius that it will not go beyond.

I see no justification in having to bring this up, since I agreed that explosions do have a maximum radius. YOU think it happens to end BEHIND Irys' tentacle, EXACTLY. Least that is what your post have given the impression of.


2. Something that is within the explosion is obscured from view.

Just Irys' tentacle was never caught in the explosion! Your picture shows the tentacle only hitting the fireball and in the next part, it's out of there, in our view.


3. Something that is in front of the explosion outside of the radius or moving away from it fast enough to stay ahead of it you can see.

And are you trying to say that we never saw Irys' tentacle during the whole scene at all? Listen, if you truly have watched the scene in slow motion, frame by frame, over and over again--you would KNOW the tentacle that we're talking about had only its tip &quot;engulfed&quot; because it was HITTING the fireball away. After that, we see it in plain view, not being enveloped at all. The reason it is not being enveloped: It is out of the radius.


4. If you have something that is long enough, like Irys's tentacles, it can be both 2 &amp; 3 above at the same time. As part of the tentacle can be within the explosion and the rest of it outside of the radius of the explosion.

Thing is, we only see the &quot;tip&quot; covered and that's because, like I said, it is hitting the fireball away. The flesh is well defended by the EM Field. We know that tentacle is hitting the fireball in that pic, because if you watch the motion of the fireball and the tentacle afterwards, they're both going in the same direction. Because if that tentacle, in the picture you are showing isn't hitting the blaze, then what is it going there in the first place? You can even tell by the movement of the fireball in that slide that it is aiming downwards, in the tentacle tip's path. But right after, that isn't happening.


Does that make it easier for you to understand because it cant get much simplier than that.

If you ask me, I think either you haven't really understand what I'm getting at or we're arguing on something different than what we really think is amidst.


Your Gamera example doesnt work the same way because he isnt as long as a tentacle from Irys. As long as Gamera stays infront of the flame, you can see him. That doesnt mean hes stopping the flame because he could be a great distance from it. If hes to close to the flame, once it flows over him, you wouldnt beable to see him. Unlike one of Irys's tentacles which are exceptionally long. Hell if Irys wanted to, he could send a tentacle straight through the explosion so you could see both ends of the tentacle, the tip and the spot on his body where it meets his shoulder, with the middle being obscured from view because of the explosion.

&quot;great distance from it.&quot; - Which is why we never see the tentacle engulfed at all afterwards. Like I said, the picture you provided shows the tentacle is hitting the fireball itself. The MOVIE supports this. Why can't you understand this? What part of Irys' tentacle do you see the &quot;flames&quot; engulfing? The tip. And before you even seen it engulfed in the first place, you see the tip heading straight towards the fireball. As it hits the fireball, you see it enveloped. Right after, the fireball is heading away and the tentacle is not submerged at all.

When did I claim the entire tentacle would need to be engulfed, by the way? If I've made a comment that said: &quot;Was the tentacle engulfed?&quot; I pretty much meant was any of it.


No, because physics dictates that the explosion has a set limit based on the force of the explosion. Thats why when someone tests a nuke it doesnt just engulf the whole planet.

...I say again: &quot;And let me guess: The fire that was being pushed by the explosion stopped just behind the tentacle before it could circle around it because &quot;you&quot; said so?&quot;

What if I said the radius of the fire ended smaller? Or farther? Or lower? Would I be right? No, we only saw that fire spread from the fireball because Irys' tentacle knocked it. The fire itself was literally taken by the fireball that was knocked off course. It never really ended behind Irys' tentacle.


OMG. Because your seeing the part of the tentacle that is NOT within the explosion, which is why you can see it. I cant believe this is so hard for you to figure out.

LOL, I think I found my mistake. Remember when I showed you the Gamera picture and said &quot;replace that with Irys' tentacle&quot; and you mentioned it wouldn't engulf it then? Well, that's why I've been bringing up the whole: &quot;We would've saw Irys' tentacle engulfed&quot; comments over and over again. I was under the impression that you claimed the flames did engulf Irys' tentacles.


No thanks, each image is like 2 Megs. I am not going to spend that much time saving them in a different format to make them of a decent size. That would take a long time.

Well, pictures speak louder than words. It would really help us get to the bottom of this. Because all we're saying now is: &quot;You missed the point&quot; or &quot;Watch the movie, it shows this!&quot; - I'm getting tired of constantly reading it over and over again. Pictures could just settle this... or should. The ones I showed just show what's happening from far away. The one you showed shows just one frame. If we saw the series of frames or at least slides of what occured, it would be a lot easier to try and explain what we've been trying to explain to one another.


Again you totally missed the point of the example and went off an something that had no bearing on it. So you think you would see the steel rod get enveloped in the explosion? Gee you must have better eyesight than an eagle.

Well my dad was an eagle... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No, I guess I didn't explain it easy enough. Point I was trying to make is we would've at least seen the steel pipe be enveloped. A few replies above, you may see how this whole fuss began.


I have been saying that the whole time, because that is why part of the tentacle is within the explosion. The flame has to pass it for it to be within it.

Ugh, I've been under the impression that you thought flames wouldn't have been able to engulf Irys' tentacles. Like I said, the whole &quot;Gamera must be stopping those flames&quot; and &quot;not being engulfed&quot; thing threw me off.


Your the one that has been saying the tentacle isnt within the explosion, not me. Did you forget which side of the discussion you are on? I'll help you out, your on the side saying that Irys's tentacles WEREN'T in the explosion.

Oh and you know what else I noticed about the quote you made of my response above? I was skeptical about it, wondering why would I say that. It makes no sense and goes against what I've been saying. This is how it should've went:

&quot;So now you are agreeing with me that the flames could spread around Irys' tentacles? Wow...&quot;

Tell me something, is it wrong to make typos or being too tired to remember to type in one word? Though it did lead to all this mess, which I admit, I was confused and lead me to think: &quot;What brought this on? How was this brought on?&quot;

[Tomzilla]

Continued....




Your the one saying it should be creeping along the tentacle and that because we dont see it do that means the tentacle isnt in the explosion? Would you care to provide proof as to why that is?

Excuse me, I'm not the one who said: &quot;you will never see the flame creep along the tentacle like you are suggesting&quot; - and uses it as an arguement. Your own attempt to try and create an advantage is also a disadvantage. It happens so fast that we can't see it, in yet...if that's the case...what if we didn't see it at all?


I have tried explaining it to you so many different ways it isnt even funny anymore, its getting sad that your not understanding it. Even looking at the film frame by frame you cant see what you are suggesting, because the explosion is moving faster than the speed of the film. And if its moving faster than the speed of the film, its sure as hell moving faster than the human eye can perceive.

The problem is, Jeff, you've been explaining to me something I already knew and THOUGHT you were explaining something that was entirely different from the arguement at hand. Is it sad to be under the impression that the other side mistakens one of your comments and believes you meant something else? No, it's called being human.


Again you completely miss the point.

Actually, for that, I just meant you didn't really explain the water at all. Is it clear? Could we see through it and able to clearly see the bottom? I was just showing the flaw in your example, since for all I know you could've been comparing clear water with fire. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Really? Then you didnt say this in your last post?
&quot;So now you are agreeing with me that the flames spread around Irys' tentacles? Wow.&quot;

Guess you dont know what your saying.

Indeed, I must not know what I'm saying. Since I thought I wrote &quot;could spread around...&quot; - If you'd like, I could just paste a few typos you, yourself, have implied. j/k http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Of course there is a flash, its an explosion. But the pictures I posted which you ignored were well after any flash occured, which is something else you are ignoring.

I'm sure when you finally read the last comments in my reply, you'd see I didn't ignore it at all.


And when did I say the explosion ended right behind Irys's tentacles? I said the explosion has a maximum radius, which go figure, by the laws of physics it does. Or is science completely wrong on this matter. Teach me for going to school.

The fact that you bring up an explosion has a maximum radius and it being behind Irys' tentacles DOES give the reader an impression that you're trying to prove that that maximum radius does end behind the tentacle and why we don't &quot;see&quot; the fire covering parts of the tentacles from behind. If you read that over to yourself, it doesn't make sense.


I cant wait to see how the movie proves me wrong, heedless of the fact that you have completely misunderstood everything I have said.

Well, I'm not surprised. You've misunderstood the fact that I was under the impression that all your examples and comments really was trying to prove something that was the opposite of what you were really implying. You thought I was trying to prove something else as well.


Then what in the world was your point for that comment because it didnt and still doesnt make any sense.

I thought your earlier comments meant that you thought Irys' tentacles could hold off a wall of fire with or without the use of EM fields. And as you already read, there had been a confusion on our parts.


OMG, Tom I cant believe your really being this dense. I never said what you seem to think im saying. Your the one who has been arguing that if the tentacle was within the explosion the flame would rush along the entire length of the tentacle. All im saying is that, that would never happen. The explosion has a maximum radius that it doesnt go beyond. Any part of the tentacle that is sticking outside of that radius, is not going to be engulfed by the flames. It can only engulf what is within its radius.

You see, I understood that completely. Before hand, I understood is completely, accept--yes and I already am tired of saying this over and over again, since it pretty much is the vocal point of this arguing--we were confused with what the other meant.


That would be correct, but it still doesnt change the fact that Irys suffered no visible wounds or showed any sign of damage after the attack. He continued on exactly like he always did. If that was Godzilla everyone would be screaming how tough he was because of that. But since its not, and its a Daiei Kaiju people have to find a way of it being a sign of weakness. Which you just tried to do by saying he only counter attacked so he wouldnt be hurt. Gee, isnt that the normal reaction of Kaiju when they are attacked, to defentd themselves.

If you've noticed in other debates, I've found flaws in Toho Kaiju too. I'm not against Daiei Kaiju in anyway, in fact they're my favorite. In a response to one of Mr. Phish's comments, I even brought up a complaint much like your own above. I dislike it when people try to find weaknesses JUST for Daiei Kaiju. The reason of why I'm having this debate is because 1) We could find out abilities Irys always had but was never known (we've proven that) and 2) To learn more of these kaiju who are underrated by the majority of people in the fandom. You, yourself, have brought up ways in the past to try and show weaknesses for Godzilla and other kaiju, when in fact it was a normal reaction of the kaiju when they are attacked and to defend themselves.


I guess those D-03 missiles that hit GMK Goji really hurt him pretty bad then. Because at no other time has a Kaiju turned and attacked ANY HUMAN attackers like he did in that scene. Thanks for showing how weak he is, or are you going to actually argue for Goji when your own logic is used against him exactly the same way you used it against Irys.

This is what I said: &quot;You indeed would be taking huge physical blows and energy at the same time.&quot; - DOES that NOT speak for itself that I am agreeing that Irys is strong enough? Do you deny that if Irys didn't retaliate, then Irys would've never recieved any injury?!

By the way, it was a D-03 missile that drilled out of Godzilla's shoulder and did make him feel a lot of pain. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Tom, the plasma ball is already exploded, there isnt another tentacle close to the explosion. The one that you see in the picture is the ONLY tentacle that touches that plasma ball, which is the second one that was blocked. I just went through that whole scene frame by frame and no other tentacle touches it. All 3 of the other tentacles are moving away from that plasma ball infact.

Actually Jeff, what you are probably seeing (the explosion) happens right as Irys' tentacle smacks into that fireball. That's the reason of why those flames are coughed out in the first place. And when did I say other tentacles were involved in hitting the fireball?


Sorry Tom, but the plasma ball isnt moving away from the tentacle in the next frame. you dont see the part of the plasma ball appear again until about 18-20 frames later when you see it going to the ground. I just went through and recaptured the entire sequence frame by frame. Its 25 frames from when I started to when I stopped and only that one tentacle ever hits the plasma ball and you actually see it move through the explosion. I will post the entire sequence once I get the chance, it wont be for a few days because of work though.

Either you are under the impression that I said two or more tentacles were involved in hitting that fireball or you didn't see that the fireball is moving away from the tentacle and that the tentacle is going in the direction of the fireball, signaling that it was responsible in hitting it. Like I said, the flames are rising only because the tentacle is disrupting the EM field of the fireball by using its own. Your picture shows this.


Thats what ive been trying to tell you. Its a combination of Irys's toughness and the EM field I believe he uses. The flame can engulf the tentacle but its not burning it, which is why it cant travel along the tentacle like you suggest.

OMG, the whole point of why we've been arguing is because I disagreed that the flesh on Irys' tentacles could withstand the heat of Gamera's fireballs (if it touched/engulfed it) or other kaiju attacks. In your picture, it shows the tip engulfed. That is because not only is it currently hitting the fireball, but it is also shielded by the EM field. Now, I don't know now what you think, because this arguement confused the hell out of me because I thought you said this and meant that, but really meant the opposite. Do you think the flesh on Irys' tentacles take the heat without an EM field? When I say heat, I mean flames; when I say flames, I mean the fireball or an energy ray from other kaiju.

Am I the only one who is annoyed by this confusion? I was ready to declare Jeff stupid and as we know, he had already declared me a moron ( http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) but I honestly didn't know that he meant a completely different thing when I read his comments. God, funny how I thought Jeff thought the whole tentacle was engulfed and he thought I was the one saying that... Knowing Jeff, he probably won't believe that I made a mistake and really am a nut that should go to a mental institution. :P And believe me, if I really was as thick as you thought I was, I couldn't agree more.

Now all we need are those pictures... if the frames are too much, just show what you get in slow motion with each click of the controller.

But for what it's worth, I'm sorry for misunderstanding your earlier comments. I thought you were talking about something completely different.

[PyrasTerran]

Bah.

It feels as if you both are just trying to be difficult, I'm sorry to say..

The whole arguement, I think, started with whether or not Irys' tentacles can withstand a blast from a Goji beam.

They should be able to, they're just like Irys' tails, and we don't see tails get blasted off by Goji's beam(nor would they, they'd be sent flying in the opposite direction).

Either way, Tom, your options aren't exactly unbelievable, but they do sound like you're just trying to keep the arguement going. Meaning, they sound kinda ridiculous. Like someone saying 'Gamera let Irys beat him', etc. But, I don't wish to debate about it, this whole thing has gotten out of hand, even more me, because you both see different things happening in the same picture, Saruman(and I) see an explosion in the sky, Tom sees a flash. It's a shame we can't ask the crew that made G3, they'd have cleared this up in a heartbeat.

[Tomzilla]

In all honesty, I get a headache whenever I'm involved in a debate that goes on for more than 3 pages. Then you could easily get confused with what the other person is saying and it is really hard to understand how it happened. I knew something was wrong when both sides were just saying neither were getting the point.

I'll say that I just think the tentacle is hitting the fireball in the picture of when we see it submerged. The events in the movie lead me to believing this. I guess everyone now made up their mind, so it looks like there'd be no more reason in continuing. Unless we can think of something else to debate over. Despite in my eyes never seeing Irys' tentacles exposed to a lot of heat so we can't really justify if they could take a direct shot, I saw something interesting in the final scenes of Gamera 3. It was a good laugh that after seeing Irys destroyed and only a few parts remaining, you could see the tentacles still there on the ground, burned. They were burned, but not destroyed or cooked to death like hotdogs. Meaning, if Irys still could've operated, I doubt those tentacles wouldn't be able to operate.

Sigh...there's still a way the above scenario may not work. With the true impact and explosive power of the plasma fist actually blasting through Irys and exploding outside Kyoto Station, the tentacles were never still exposed to the mighty blast. But I gues that doesn't matter, what matters is they were still intact and all we saw was a change in skin color, telling us the skin was burnt.

In English: they could take heat and fire. So why couldn't they take Godzilla's ray for a few blasts before damage begins to show?

This debate, while frustrating half-way through, turned out all right. We helped establish another new strength and even more knowledge/abilities for Irys. Just in time, since soon DD-III will begin.... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/evilglow.gif

We'll just wait for Jeff and then see where this goes. Hope y'all had a blast and learned something.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif

[Dark Warrior]

Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 09 2004,10:26)]This debate, while frustrating half-way through, turned out all right. We helped establish another new strength and even more knowledge/abilities for Irys. Just in time, since soon DD-III will begin.... http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/evilglow.gif

We'll just wait for Jeff and then see where this goes. Hope y'all had a blast and learned something.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/iryssmilie.gif
Oh the memories of when you and Phish(along with Ang55 and Saru) had the massive 12 page debate on who would win between SpaceGodzilla and Irys..and never came to a solid conclusion...hope to see some of those in DD3 http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

And yeah,we've all learned something.All of Irys new abilites and durability...and its funny how this thread started out as a Irys &quot;dissing&quot; thread.

All in all,a classic thread http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

[Tomzilla]

Quote[/b] (Saruman @ April 09 2004,18:21)]Quote[/b] (Tomzilla @ April 09 2004,18:14)]Whoa....

Well, no wonder why you have so many Kaiju Books. You have time to read them all in less than two weeks. *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif
If I could read Japanese, LOL. Its hard enough just trying to match up Katakana &amp; Hiranga symbols. Expecially when they use different &quot;symbols/letters&quot; for the same thing multiple times on the same page. How many different ways do the Japanese know how to write &quot;Height,&quot; i've found atleast 4 on one page. No wonder its the hardest language to learn.
Where did you get all the books? I'm sure you didn't fly all the way to Japan. &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Now my head can rest. We never did conclude 'Space Godzilla vs. Irys', but I have feeling we'll be seeing it in DDIII. If not, well... Until then, keep creating new topics that &quot;diss&quot; Daiei Kaiju. It is now a 75% chance it'll turn into a &quot;Daiei Kaiju Praise&quot; topic and we learn just how deadly these things are. What's next? Legion firing the laser whips and EM beam at the same time? &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[PyrasTerran]

Irys stands at 99 meters tall, the perfect size to fight both small and large kaiju. He can attack a kaiju from four different angles at once with very unique weapons, made specifically for cutting and drilling through opponent's armors. His tentacles can repel Gamera's plasma balls with ease, and thanks to new evidence, may even be able to halt Godzilla's breath weapon. He can fly at Mach 9, and has no known weakness. He is very powerful in hand-to-hand combat, and can drive his armblades through just about anything. When it comes to taking damage, he can continue fighting strong even with his stomach and nearby organs ripped out.

He would have had the world under his dominion were it not for the thirst for more power in fusing with Ayana. However, even while distracted her, he still managed to lay waste to Gamera, one of the strongest kaiju around. Now, he fights without Ayana on his mind, he will be much more ruthless than before, because nothing is there to hold him back.

As you vote for kaiju to win, remember Irys. Thank You.

[Husnock]

Wow, what a read. *I'm almost sad to see it's over. *Well, I have certainly learned a ton on Irys, stuff I never knew before (EM field generation), and stuff I only had the slightest grip on (tentacles' ability to block energy weapons). *I say all Kaiju should get &quot;diss threads&quot; like this. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Quote[/b] ]I just got my GvB encyclopedia in the mail yesterday. I cant wait to scan the concept pics of Biollante, some of them are pretty sweet, not to mention scary.
First Deutalios, then Dagarah and DG, and now Biollante? *I gotta see these pics. *Can we expect any more concept art (of any monster, really) added to the Roost anytime soon, Saruman?

[PyrasTerran]

Many people have deemed Irys to be very very slow on land, which is understandable, as in most of the movie he did march about very slowly.

However, I have gone through a certain scene much, and in comparison with the rest of his movement, it might disprove the irys-slow-on-land idea:

Look to the scene where our favorite ex-security guard gets pwned by a fat policeman(?). They both look up and see Gamera getting knocked back dirty-style. Before we see them scream, we see Irys suddenly rush in and ram an arm into Gamy's shoulder. This speed was much faster than what he usually lumbered around in, and it brings me to believe Irys isn't a speed demon, but still faster than once believed.


Another thing, is something I've wondered for quite a while, but as much as I asked, everyone a) didn't notice it, or b) ignored it, or c) didn't know what to make of it:

In the dogfight, Gamera rushed Irys with a biting ram, and when he collides with Irys, we see chunks of Irys' body fly off, we even hear the sickening crunch sound. However, when he lands, he appears unharmed.

Can someone try explaining this to me?

[Berserk_Seraph]

As with most miraculous regeneration I'm pegging that one to oversight (Or maybe making a 'damaged Irys' suit/model wasn't a viable option?)

[PyrasTerran]

eh, no one ever seems to oversee other kaiju's crazy-instant regeno's.. ¬_¬

[Berserk_Seraph]

Eh. I'm more than willing to accept that the regen speeds attributed to some Kaiju are a touch unrealistic, but that's the way it goes. Their regeneration is sufficient that any damage from conventional weapons - and some weapons do register on some Kaiju, I'd wager - is regenerated within moments, so that's okay.

Instant regen of Kaiju-size wounds, though? Unlikely...much more likely, the issue is the suits. If you *really* show the damage that the big G takes, you're looking at an expensive and ultimately inviable option - the cost is likely too much in comparison to the virtues of continuity of wounds.

[kent]

Interesting. But what's with all of this Irys stuff all of the sudden?

[PyrasTerran]

I simply felt like it.

[SandwormPhish]

Quote[/b] (Berserk_Seraph @ April 23 2004,23:44)]Eh. I'm more than willing to accept that the regen speeds attributed to some Kaiju are a touch unrealistic, but that's the way it goes. Their regeneration is sufficient that any damage from conventional weapons - and some weapons do register on some Kaiju, I'd wager - is regenerated within moments, so that's okay.

Instant regen of Kaiju-size wounds, though? Unlikely...much more likely, the issue is the suits. If you *really* show the damage that the big G takes, you're looking at an expensive and ultimately inviable option - the cost is likely too much in comparison to the virtues of continuity of wounds.
I believe what he meant was that most people look at Heisei Goji for example and take those vanishing wounds as proof of super-quick regeneration.

[Berserk_Seraph]

Heehee. I know what he meant. But on this forum where I lack mod powers I must tread carefully, lest a brick pierce my window with a piece of dynamite and a hastily-scribbled &quot;H31531 G0DZ1LL4 K1LLZ J00 W H15 5p1r4l B33M, D00D!111!11!!!1&quot; on it.

Yeah, almost every Kaiju's regen is overstated, save the *visible* regen of certain wounds - Orga is the keenest example to come to mind.

[Spiral Fire]

I have three theories:

1: Iris is quite possibly male because Ayana merged with him/her/it physically but possibly mentally as well. She then refers to it as a "him".

2. Iris may be durable because Moribe throws a razor-sharp knife at it and the knife simply bounces off it. If you threw a knife at an ordinary living thing, it would probably cut it.

3. Iris possibly sees through the tip of its tentacles because when it attacks one girl, the camera shows through the tentacle's "prespective".

But hey, those are just theories.

[Cole Deschain]

"No known weaknesses..."

I call dying when eviscerated and then being hit with plasma internally a weakness, thank you kindly. ;) Granted, it's pretty common... :look:

[Daikaijuking]

i thnk he has a weakness, like orga i think his weakness is being blown from the inside out. Remember when gamera punched his plasma fist in that hole, boom.

[PyrasTerran]

But like Cole said, that's pretty much what would defeat just about every kaiju except maybe Hedorah.

But if you want Irys' weakness, here it is: Ayana. His desire for her made him ignore Gamera and the potential he had of destroying him. When Irys should have finished Gamera off, he could not help but turn to her. She was both his only friend and greatest enemy.

Now, how the hell did my vote-for-Irys post get over here??

Oh, and I like Irys because he's unique from other kaiju villians, in purpose, ambition, goals and design.