Have they found JESUS yet?!

[Dr. Strangelove]

No, I haven't....but these guys think they have!

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/scholars-clergy-criticize-jesus/20070226101109990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

I'm waiting for the jews to go "Told you", and then demand a nickle...

[Goji Son]

Oh James Cameron, will you ever get off your high horse and recognize that your career has been nothing but overly mediocre.

Mary, Joseph, Judah, were all common, Semetic names around that time. I am interested to see it but I wouldn't be shocked to see if it is just a media sideshow Cameron has concocted. The article even states that the names might not even be translated properly.

[Gorjirus]

Read the article. They think they've found Jesus's tomb.

What makes you think I didn't?

[Goji Son]

I'm waiting for the jews to go "Told you", and then demand a nickle...

Wait, why would they demand a nickle?

[Gorjirus]

The way you worded your reply.

What, you don't think I can't mean two things at the same time? :p

Wait, why would they demand a nickle?

B/C he's being anti-sematic! :p

[Dr. Strangelove]

And here I thought this was going to be a thread about Tom Cruise.:confused:
I know, I'm disapointed that Tom Cruise wasn't dead as well...

[Jet Jaguar]

It's all a buncha hooey concocted to resurrect (pun intended) Cameron's career

[Seer235]

I've already seen this, but again must express my skepticism. Not only on the evidence he is bringing up, but that a discovery of this magnitude about Christianity would be found in my lifetime (or even ever) and that it would be brought to us by James Cameron.

[godofPH]

Oh James Cameron, will you ever get off your high horse and recognize that your career has been nothing but overly mediocre.

Sounds like he is using the media's equivalent of steroids: injecting his newest work work a nice old dosage of CONTROVERSY. It seems like juicing your documentary/book/movie with some sort of wild claim is a straight shot to the top...

[Gorjirus]

I am even more skeptical, because this isn't the first time someone has found the "Tomb of Jesus".

And reading an article in the people today, one of the guys that helped find the tomb, doesn't even think it belongs to Jesus.

So yeah. Cameron just wants publicity. And what better way to get publicity in America than mention Jesus!

Because if it was Muhammad, he'd get a boost on the terrorist hit list.

[Project Pimp]

Didn't Cameron direct the highest grossing film of all time? In addition to four of the most awesome sci-fi films ever?

I don't think he's doing this for the money.

[OniGojira]

Cameron has done documentaries recently. His recent films are Ghosts of the Abyss (2001 Disney IMAX film on the real Titanic) Expedition Bismarck (2002 discovery Channel on Hitler's warship) Aliens of the Deep (oceanography 2003) Exodus: revealed was on the History Channel last year. Now this film which premires on the Discovery Channel this Saturday.

[Zillamon51]

Didn't Cameron direct the highest grossing film of all time? In addition to four of the most awesome sci-fi films ever?

I don't think he's doing this for the money.

Also, his next big feature-film project, Avatar, is in production. That will involve plenty of publicity of its own.


I don't think enough is known yet to determine if this is in fact the tomb of Jesus and family. (I always thought he was buried in Japan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5326614.stm).) What I find interesting about the story is that it's James Cameron publicizing it. As someone who occasionally visits conspiracy theory sites (mostly just for laughs), this falls right in line with the CTs' view of Cameron. He is alleged to be a high-ranking member of the Freemasons / Illuminati, the group behind the "New World Order" conspiracy. (Read more about it! (http://www.whale.to/b/cameron5.html)) So, is Cameron trying to shatter the foundation of the Christian faith, which is widely believed to be an important part of abolishing U.S. sovereignty and ushering in the NWO? I report, you decide!

[Dr. Strangelove]

The problem is it doesn't matter if it is or it isn't because everyone wants to believe it isn't the tomb of Christ. If it really was then it would shake the entire foundation of the church and we can't have that now can we. They would be forced to rethink everything they have been taught to believe, so its easier to dismiss it as false then to consider that it could be true.

Personally I would laugh my *** off it could be proven without a doubt to be true.:darklord:
It would be the greatest step forward Mankind has taken since the fall of the Roman Empire...

<.<


I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty — I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind. - Friedrich Nietzsche

^.^

Note: This is directed at the faith, not the people. I pity the people..

[Goji Son]

I pity our on going hope that it is Christ. If it is, screw college I'm making a pilgrammage. If it isn't, well....sad. We're all so scared of death and dying....we just can't give up.

And you have to admit, Nietzsche had some DAMN good ideas. And a few years on most of us, so...yeah. Of course we'd look up to him. It's a human instinct to want protection. Protect thyself with words.

Plus, Nietzsche was blunter about life than even I can claim to be.

Meh, I find him just as preachy and condescending as Jerry Falwell and just as closed minded.

He had interesting ideas, I'll give you that, but I wouldn't call them 'DAMN good'.

[Saruman]

There all retards so what the hell does it matter.

The only person you can count on is yourself so believe in yourself and screw everyone else.:devil:

[OniGojira]

Not to mention people are so scared that if it is really him then it would destroy faith.

IMO if it is really Jesus I wouldn't care. I'd say it would boost people's church views than stop it.

[Seer235]

I really doubt that JC can prove that it's really THE Jesus Christ. Besides, how should this effect anyone's faith? Shouldn't we be more focused on what Jesus taught then whether or not the stories(more like parables) were actually true?

The teachings are all great, but the whole death and resurrection thing is crucial to the Christian faith. If it didn't happen, all Jesus would be is a guy with good advice, not the son of God.

[OniGojira]

Yeah the advice is about it on me that helps me out. Every religion has that same view on living a good life and all that.

The parables I never understood much and just confused me.

[Goji Son]

The teachings are all great, but the whole death and resurrection thing is crucial to the Christian faith. If it didn't happen, all Jesus would be is a guy with good advice, not the son of God.


Whose to say when Jesus ascended to heaven it was just his soul while his physical body remained on Earth?

[Jet Jaguar]

Interesting thoughts all, I have to say
Jesus' body and soul went up to Heaven to be with the Father. At least that's my understanding of God's Word. The bodies in the tomb will NOT include one of the Christ, who still lives!!


By the way, i KNOW this will cause my JJ-Flaming, and that's okay. I can take it.
And even the Bible says that if Jesus wasn't the Christ, the Messiah, then we who call ourselves Christians are just wasting our time.

I'm glad we're not,tho!!

[Tomzilla]

It’s a bit ironic, isn’t it? Those that are quick to dismiss Christianity usually do it because they believe the Bible could’ve easily been rewritten. This is a valid notion, mind you. We honestly don’t really know the absolute truth (if there is one). Yet irony settles in. Those that believe the Bible could’ve easily been rewritten or mistranslated are quick to agree and/or support this announcement shrouding the so-called tomb of Jesus Christ. Why? If such people are under the notion that the Bible could’ve been changed or mistaken, why can’t the same apply here? What stopped someone from naming their children after Jesus, who were all buried years later on hallow ground? Do they have DNA to support their claim should they uncover any genetic samples? I could name one of my children ‘Jesus Christ’. If society has his blood sample encoded in some database, then years later archeologists found his tomb, what do you think would happen? And for those saying they could use the blood stain found at the tip of the Lance of Longinus, ask yourself: if you believe the Bible isn’t pure, then perhaps that too was fabricated or exaggerated to an extent.


People need beliefs to go on. It gives them hope and purpose. Everyone has beliefs in one way or another. It, along with your actions (which tend to be a result of your beliefs), define you. As long as nobody is shoving their Faith in your face, why does its mere existence bother you? Yeah, I admit, there are quite a few strange beliefs on the planet (understatement), but I don’t go out of my way to try and insult it or its followers. I don’t even try to disprove it. Like I said, people need it. That’s what makes this world so damn special. It’s filled with so many different beliefs because there are different people. Not everyone can believe in the same thing. And when all is said and done, I’m left to believe there is no ultimate truth that binds us all. People have their own unique truths. Learn to accept it.

[Jet Jaguar]

The only way would be to use that spear and see if the blood (if there is any surviving DNA left) and compare it.

Compare it to WHAT exactly??

[OniGojira]

Well if the spear is what many claim, then it would have blood on it.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Compare it to WHAT exactly??
He's talking about the Lance of Longinus/Spear of Destiny. It was said to be used to pierce the side of Jesus, to make sure he was dead. There are rumors going around that Napoleon, Hitler, and such held the spear at one time. It *does* exist...sort of. The actual spear itself has been added onto over the years, lavishly I might add.

Either way, Mark has totally ignored the fact that Jesus, biologically, came from the House of David. We only need to found a living 'relative' and see how close it comes.

[OniGojira]

I'm sure some have thought of that too. Who knows. Tomorrow night on the Discovery Channel we'll see what was found in this tomb.

[Goji Son]

He's talking about the Lance of Longinus/Spear of Destiny. It was said to be used to pierce the side of Jesus, to make sure he was dead. There are rumors going around that Napoleon, Hitler, and such held the spear at one time. It *does* exist...sort of. The actual spear itself has been added onto over the years, lavishly I might add.

Either way, Mark has totally ignored the fact that Jesus, biologically, came from the House of David. We only need to found a living 'relative' and see how close it comes.

I think he knew about the spear, he's questioning what other samples of Jesus' DNA are there.

[Jet Jaguar]

Exactly. Messianic DNA is kinda hard to come by
And the line of David would be so "watered down" by now as to render itself useless in such a test

[Goji Son]

...

Not quite.

You see, they were able to find Ghengis' Khan's blood line in modern mongolia. This won't be too much harder.

Ehh... Mongols aren't worldly travellers like the Jews.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ehh... Mongols aren't worldly travellers like the Jews.
...

Ehh..

Ghengis Khan conquered most of the world.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ehh...

He didn't share his bloodline with the locals.
Ah! And that is where you're wrong. Khan was a very...'active', man. Being a world conquer, you've got access to the world's most beautiful women from across said world.

[Goji Son]

Ah! And that is where you're wrong. Khan was a very...'active', man. Being a world conquer, you've got access to the world's most beautiful women from across said world.

Woops, accidentally deleted my own post but yeah, I claim fault on that. Did some research and it states that he has lines Asia and Russia which is rather interesting since all his descendents (well known that is) are Mongols. Alot of it comes from political intrigue though, with his sons and relatives marrying into local families so they could be under the House of Ghengis.

Learn something new everyday.

From Jesus to Ghengis Khan, how did that happen?

[Orga777]

He's talking about the Lance of Longinus/Spear of Destiny. It was said to be used to pierce the side of Jesus, to make sure he was dead. There are rumors going around that Napoleon, Hitler, and such held the spear at one time. It *does* exist...sort of. The actual spear itself has been added onto over the years, lavishly I might add.

Nein Doc. Scientists inspected the dating of all the spears that people claim is the Spear of Longinus. And the Vienna spear that you are talking about (the one Hitler stole) is not the spear. Nobody even knows where the spear is, or if it still even exists. Saw it on the History Channel.

[Goji Son]

Nein Doc. Scientists inspected the dating of all the spears that people claim is the Spear of Longinus. And the Vienna spear that you are talking about (the one Hitler stole) is not the spear. Nobody even knows where the spear is, or if it still even exists. Saw it on the History Channel.

I remember watching that too but I don't remember much of it. I find it highly improbable that they could prove anything with DNA evidence since there are so many uncertainties involved..

[Orga777]

There are parts of *some kind* of Rome-era spear, inside all of the gold, silver and stuff that is added on.

You are right, but not one part of the spear dates to the first century, so it CAN'T be the spear that peirced Christ.

[Orga777]

Not that part of the spear. The nails on the very-inside, that they couldn't get to without *breaking* the thing. I remember the documentary, I saw it on the Discovery Times channel.

Odd, since the oen I watched they dated the nail that was in the center of the spear.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Odd, since the oen I watched they dated the nail that was in the center of the spear.
Doesn't matter. You couldn't get a clear sample from it anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Regardless, like I said, the house of David is still around, and we can trace it through him. Now, there will be alot of skeletons in that tomb, for it is a FAMILY tomb. Though, I do believe that, if we count the number of complete/mostly complete skeletons, and if there are enough....the odds are rising.

[Gorjirus]

Have you read any other articles about that documentary?

Only a few people think it is the tomb of Jesus. One of the guys who found it, doesn't beleive it was.

As in, this AP Report:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007302270010

[Zillamon51]

It may be a guy named Jesus, but it ain't JESUS, people.

Why are so many people ready to dismiss Christianity, but seem so "tolerant" of just about EVERY OTHER RELIGION??

Cuz no is claiming to have found the tomb of Buddah, Mohammed, or any other religious figure.

And isn't it dismissive of you to claim it isn't Jesus' tomb, before all the evidence is in? If there is enough validity to the evidence for research to continue, it's still going to be a long time before anything approaching a definitive conclusion can be arrived at.

[Dr. Strangelove]

It may be a guy named Jesus, but it ain't JESUS, people.
Why are so many people ready to dismiss Christianity, but seem so "tolerant" of just about EVERY OTHER RELIGION??
I live in the south. Bible-belt south. Nay, buckle-of-the-bible-belt south. I've had Baptism shoved down my throat and up my *** since a very tender age. If it's proben wrong, it's sort of a....hm....mental, or moral victory for me.

[OniGojira]

The documentary will acctualy be on tomorrow night on the Discovery Channel. I thought it was tonight. Sorry about that.

Yeah Dr. S that sucks having things shoved at you, that you have no care for. I was never baptised for some reason.

If it is proven to be real and genuine then what? How would the world react to the news?

[Lord Jimifulss]

Bah.

First off, as several people have stated, there's no way to prove that this tomb is the tomb of THE Jesus Christ. I saw an interview on some news show with(what's the director's name? I don't care enough to remember.) And the only real "evidence" he had were the poorly translated names on the slabs and some statistics. "there probably weren't very many people around with that name at that time." Or something like that.

Second... if it is the tomb of Christ, by some long shot.. who really cares?

I'm a Christian. Have been most of my life and plan on continuing to be one. I apologize for the atrocities and constant acts of hypocrisy commited by my "fellow" Christians in Christ's name - I can assure you, Jesus probably isn't proud of Jerry Falwell. Nothing about what a lot of "modern" day "Christians" do has anything to do with Christianity, if you look at Christ's character and what he taught(since that's the point of it all anyway)

Not an attempt to convert you - just had to get that out there. I really can't blame a lot of people who have a problem with Christianity, since it's been so poorly and horribly represented. You never hear about the group of Christian college kids who went to Iraq with medicine and bottled water the day after the bombing started in 2003, but we love to hear about the lunacy spewed by Jerry Falwell. Go figure.

Anywho - even if this WAS the tomb of Christ, which I doubt it is, I know what I believe and nothings going to change that. You can think me as ignorant as you like, but I'll stop believing when the heavens open up and God says, "I'm not real." A lot of the bible IS left to open interpretation anyway, that being the parts that are not staples of the core beliefs. Maybe at the end of Matthew when it says he descended into heaven, it was only talking about his soul? Maybe his body stayed here? I don't know, I wasn't there, and I damn well don't need to know either - little ands and what ifs aren't the point.

END.

[Goji Son]

Meh, I live in a place far worse than the South, I live in Texas. I have been to many a Sunday school tagging along with friends and girlfriend at 3 Baptists churches within 5 miles of each other and many more after that. I have been labeled a 'Non-Christian' in front of Bible study teachers. I've had letters sent to my house about my ever lasting soul and I have gotten into many a argument with my friends over religious beliefs.

One of my good friends is a very devout Christian, she works at the Baptist church, which is more like a super mall, and she is fully committed to it. I never thought when I first met her she would buy into the fact that I was an Agnostic Deist but instead of giving me a strange look she asked me about it and I explained it to her and she was really responsive to it. No harm, no foul. I never saw religion as an obstacle for my relationships with anyone because I see it as a personal thing rather than something that has to be shared with everyone.

I don't really know why this all came out but I guess what I am trying to say is that I have faced judgment and have been told that I was going to burn in hell yet I never choose to resent anyone nor tolerate it. I simply accepted that people have their own views and I have mine and that's the way the world works. There is no real universal answer but we find some for ourselves through our faiths. But acceptance is a tricky thing, that means people will have to drop their prejudices and simply see people as actual "people" not as a "Mormon" "Baptist" "Nihilist" "Atheist" or "Jew" and that's a hard concept to most.

Anyways, uhhh... so I won't be able to watch the show. Damn work.

[Saruman]

But acceptance is a tricky thing, that means people will have to drop their prejudices and simply see people as actual "people" not as a "Mormon" "Baptist" "Nihilist" "Atheist" or "Jew" and that's a hard concept to most.

That's the problem right there, they can't do that and do not want to. People are up in arms about a Mormon wanting to run for President, WTF? Suddenly you can't run for the Presidency unless you are Christian, and yes it was the Christians that were making the most noise. Religion is the single most hypocritical thing ever established, well politics is right there with it but they are so similar is almost impossible to tell the difference. It's why I despise religion, heck, it was only a tool to control people to begin with and still is. Oh and before people say its not a tool to control them, answer this one question.

Why did you choose the religion you are following?

[Gorjirus]

Why did you choose the religion you are following?


I believe it to be true.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I believe it to be true.
I think I'll give Saruman's next quesiton...

Why?

[Gorjirus]

I think I'll give Saruman's next quesiton...

Why?

To tell the truth, my first reaction to that is the smart alec answer/what you actually want to hear.

But, here is why:

I've read the Bible. I've heard lessons on the Bible. And I believe it to be true.


I've met Christians, and I have found them to be extordinarily nice and caring people. I've seen what believers are like.

Thus, I decided to be a Christian.

[Seer235]

That's the problem right there, they can't do that and do not want to. People are up in arms about a Mormon wanting to run for President, WTF? Suddenly you can't run for the Presidency unless you are Christian, and yes it was the Christians that were making the most noise. Religion is the single most hypocritical thing ever established, well politics is right there with it but they are so similar is almost impossible to tell the difference.

See, with that I would end up deducing that most people are either corrupt or idiots. Yknow, considering Jesus' actual teachings and all that.


Why did you choose the religion you are following?

Gor explained it pretty well for me. My parents and people at my Church are prime examples of the extraordinary people he was referring to.

[Spookshow_Baby]

The bible tells you if your daughter gets raped she has to marry the said rapist.

I come from an extremely European Christian family/background, don't get your panties in a buch all EXTREMELY proud to be American...and it pisses me off most of the time. I like the stories about good versus evil, people having to question their morals to do whats right....but the bible...sheesh. My friend Snidly has read most of the bibles out there, and he stole my Satanic Bible (which I still have yet to read..damn him) and he said compared to everything Bibilcal he's read it makes the Bible look like a story book, which, in a sense, every bible is. The Bible was written by man, so it's most likely biased as hell.

Thus I think the Bible is a joke for the most part.

Don't get me wrong God is Great but...yeah. Crockery.

[Goji Son]

Why did you choose the religion you are following?

Yes, though it's not really a religion just a personal practice.

I hear you on the whole election thing. There is also controversy with Barack Obama going to a "Muslim" school when he was younger despite the fact that he's a Christian. That is one thing that bugs me about these political fundamentalist Christians, they think that this nation was founded as a Christian nation but all the Founding Fathers were Deists. Thomas Jefferson used to take out all the parables and miracles out of the Bible and instead just left Jesus' teachings and followed that instead.

[Seer235]

Interesting thing about Jesus- He was against public prayer.

Pretty much. He didn't want people openly praying in public or making elaborate prayers--flaunting their faith, essentially. He preferred to have things be simple and private when praying to God. He also had no problem with non-Christian governments.

[Gorjirus]

He was against flaunting and making a show of it. Not like a small silent pray before you eat.

The bible tells you if your daughter gets raped she has to marry the said rapist.


Out of curiosity, where does it say that?

No wait, scratch that. I really don't want this to turn into something it shouldn't.

[Cole Deschain]

The POINT is, I'm willing to bet that the overhwelming majority of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, whatever, are that way because they were raised in that culture.

I have no illusions about myself- my agnosticism is what I was raised with.

Yes, there are people who consciously switch from their upbringing (my father, for one), but for the most part you stick with what you grew up in.

And the idea of "well, I examined the actual rules, and decided i liked them." Uh, have you ever considered that by being raised to appreciate the very ethics and morals espoused in whatever rulebook you choose to follow, you've been set up since birth to agree with it.

Even Dad, who told the Catholic Church to take a running **** at a rolling Donut, still has little snippets of the basic teachings that affect his behavior.

[Darth Reaper]

Have you found JESUS yet?!- Dr. Strangelove

I found him under my bed yesterday. Sometimes, I think he isn't even trying to play the game anymore.

Seriously, my instincts tell me that this whole thing with the supposed tomb of Jesus isn't going to go anywhere. It's like The Shroud of Turin; nobody's been able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whether or not it's the actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ, and I don't think anyone ever will.

[Spookshow_Baby]

Good point. I'd call myself agnostic, because my mother and her family, and stepfather is. We don't take life too seriously.

It's my FATHER'S side that's truely into religion, but it's weird because he taught my brother and I about God, I've only been to church...7 times. 3 times with Great Grandma on my MOM'S side, and my MOTHER'S family is EXTREMELY AGNOSTIC. I mean, like, lets drink and be retarted to our hearts content, but with some restraint. Obey the laws, pretty much. Anyway, My dad took us (my little brother and I) to church twice, once to introduce us to the congregation (mostly our relatives....it was cool though, we got candy for being good and *trying* to sing the hymns) and then to get us baptized.

I find this odd though. My mom's a decent person who cusses all the time, yet my father, the "religious" one, is on his 6th wife.

What. The. F*ck.

[Seer235]

The POINT is, I'm willing to bet that the overhwelming majority of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, whatever, are that way because they were raised in that culture.

I was gonna give counter examples of how I didn't feel my life was that, and give my friend as an example for people who actively changed.

But then I realized that those were exceptions and that you are totally right. Something always seems more logical if you were told it your entire life.

[Seer235]

To add to what Jesus said on being against public prayer is he also didn't like the idea of churches. The movie Stigmata is where I heard it. He didn't like the idea of that you had to go to a church to pray. No, if you wanted to pray, go ahead.

Well, not as much that he doesn't like Churches, but they're unnecessary. You don't need to go to a Church to be saved or any of that. Getting together with a bunch of other Christians to praise God and learn more about his teachings is never a bad thing, though.

[Saruman]

To tell the truth, my first reaction to that is the smart alec answer/what you actually want to hear.

But, here is why:

I've read the Bible. I've heard lessons on the Bible. And I believe it to be true.


I've met Christians, and I have found them to be extordinarily nice and caring people. I've seen what believers are like.

Thus, I decided to be a Christian.

Now this is all nice, but you still haven't answered the question.

Are your parents Christian? Did they bring you up as Christian? Did they have you baptized or have you go through any Christian rite of passage?

See I am sure the answer to all of that is YES. If so then you DID NOT CHOOSE your religion, it was chosen for you by your parents and ingrained in you from the moment of birth, meaning you have no choice in the matter.

That is what I am trying to make you understand. Most people do not choose their religion, they are born into it and thus have no choice in wether they want to follow it or not.

Edit:

As Cole pointed out, it's the ones that later decide to follow another path that are in the vast minority.

[Gorjirus]

Now this is all nice, but you still haven't answered the question.

Are your parents Christian? Did they bring you up as Christian? Did they have you baptized or have you go through any Christian rite of passage?

See I am sure the answer to all of that is YES. If so then you DID NOT CHOOSE your religion, it was chosen for you by your parents and ingrained in you from the moment of birth, meaning you have no choice in the matter.

That is what I am trying to make you understand. Most people do not choose their religion, they are born into it and thus have no choice in wether they want to follow it or not.

What?

Have no choice?

I might have been forced to go to church, when I was what, 8? What I do now, and what beliefs I have no, are my choice. You can be baptised and what not when you are young, but that doesn't automatically mean that you are somehow bound to Christianity for the rest of your life.

Plus, I DID answer your question. You just didn't like the answer.


Anywho, how did this thread turn into another pure reglious thread? Why does this always happen on here?

As Cole pointed out, it's the ones that later decide to follow another path that are in the vast minority.


So the people who grow up in a religion, and follow blindly in it for life are the same as those who grew up in/exposed to a religion but at a point in their life examine that and then ecide either to follow it or choose otherwise?

[HolyGoji777]

I have to agree with Gojirus. I was brought up in a christian home and while i was exposed to this it most certainly did not dictate my beliefs now. i struggled with my beliefs...i studied science as well as many other religions before coming back to christianity because i find TRUTH in it.

suggesting i would be ignorant enough to base my entire life on something simply because i was exposed to it as a child is kinda insulting. i was also exposed to the opposite in public school as they didnt teach creationism. in fact i was exposed to this 5 times a week compared to only once per week as far as christianity goes.

contrary to popular belief christians are no more sheep than anyone else and im really tired of being looked down upon as if im just some poor stupid soul who lacks understanding. im supposed to be this brainwashed individual too stupid to buy into a more "logical" way of thinking. you suggest im so dumb that because my parents are christian that im just automatically going to accept their beliefs with my life on the line. its ridiculous. dont make assumptions about me. a whole lot of people think the earth happened by chance. im one of the whole lot of people who dont.

[Cole Deschain]

suggesting i would be ignorant enough to base my entire life on something simply because i was exposed to it as a child is kinda insulting. i was also exposed to the opposite in public school as they didnt teach creationism. in fact i was exposed to this 5 times a week compared to only once per week as far as christianity goes.


Not "exposed to," Reaper.

Immersed in.

And you mean to tell em that your family's faith never came up after school? That you never once prayed at any point outside of once a week church attendance?

It's not all "sinister indoctrination."

A lot of it is just how people live their lives.

[Saruman]

What?

Have no choice?

I might have been forced to go to church, when I was what, 8? What I do now, and what beliefs I have no, are my choice. You can be baptised and what not when you are young, but that doesn't automatically mean that you are somehow bound to Christianity for the rest of your life.

Plus, I DID answer your question. You just didn't like the answer.

No you didn't, you were brought up in a religion, you had no control over that what so ever. The moment you were old enough to say yes or no were you asked if you wanted to be Christian? I don't think so. What would have happened if at the age of 10 if you told your parents you nolonger wanted to go to church and wanted to become a member of another faith?

Pretty easy to answer and I can tell you what would have been the outcome pretty easily. You would have gotten the whole "who is putting ideas into your head" speech and hen taken off to see the head of your church for some "counciling."

Anywho, how did this thread turn into another pure reglious thread? Why does this always happen on here?

You might want to go back and look at some of your posts, they helped creat it.;)

So the people who grow up in a religion, and follow blindly in it for life are the same as those who grew up in/exposed to a religion but at a point in their life examine that and then ecide either to follow it or choose otherwise?

Have you ever set down and studied other religions to see if they fit better with your "personal" beliefs so that you could decide if you were following the religion that was right for you? I seriously doubt that you have, so yes you are blindly following the religion you were brought up with if you have not given other religions an equal chance.

[Saruman]

I have to agree with Gojirus. I was brought up in a christian home and while i was exposed to this it most certainly did not dictate my beliefs now. i struggled with my beliefs...i studied science as well as many other religions before coming back to christianity because i find TRUTH in it.

suggesting i would be ignorant enough to base my entire life on something simply because i was exposed to it as a child is kinda insulting. i was also exposed to the opposite in public school as they didnt teach creationism. in fact i was exposed to this 5 times a week compared to only once per week as far as christianity goes.

contrary to popular belief christians are no more sheep than anyone else and im really tired of being looked down upon as if im just some poor stupid soul who lacks understanding. im supposed to be this brainwashed individual too stupid to buy into a more "logical" way of thinking. you suggest im so dumb that because my parents are christian that im just automatically going to accept their beliefs with my life on the line. its ridiculous. dont make assumptions about me. a whole lot of people think the earth happened by chance. im one of the whole lot of people who dont.

Oh cry me a river, please point out where anyone said you were ignorant, dumb and looked down upon? And yes whether you you want to believe it or not, when your brought up being taught something by your family and their religion THAT DOES help form your beliefs.

But since you brought it up, please tell us how you studied other religions to decide what was the best one for you? Tell us why the others didn't work for you? Like I said to Gor, I highly doubt that you have given it that much thought. I highly doubt that you have considered converting to another religion at any point. It's possible sure, but again you would be in the vast minority that have actually done that.

[Gorjirus]

No you didn't, you were brought up in a religion, you had no control over that what so ever. The moment you were old enough to say yes or no were you asked if you wanted to be Christian? I don't think so. What would have happened if at the age of 10 if you told your parents you nolonger wanted to go to church and wanted to become a member of another faith?

What do you mean, "was I asked"? If I was asked, wouldn't that almost be like I needed someones permission? (And trust me, the age was a little past ten, but that's just being picky).

What would my parents have done.... well, I know they wouldn't have agreed with it. But could they have done anything to stop me? No. And I know that they would still love me and support me if I had changed.

Pretty easy to answer and I can tell you what would have been the outcome pretty easily. You would have gotten the whole "who is putting ideas into your head" speech and hen taken off to see the head of your church for some "counciling."
[/QUOTE]

LOL

No I wouldn't. "Head of our church for "counciling""? You make it sound like attending my church is like some kind of private school or on a contract. Would I have gotten some speech? Yeah.

Bu taken to the preacher or an elder? Yeah right. I don't know what kind of churches you have been exposed to, but if you think it is like that at all churches, I have to tell you you haven't been to one like mine.

You might want to go back and look at some of your posts, they helped creat it.

D'oh!

I don't even need to look back to know you're right on that one.... Curses, I didn't see it until it was too late.

Have you ever set down and studied other religions to see if they fit better with your "personal" beliefs so that you could decide if you were following the religion that was right for you? I seriously doubt that you have, so yes you are blindly following the religion you were brought up with if you have not given other religions an equal chance.


You mean sit down and study like I do for college classes?

No. I'll admit I haven't done that. I rarely even do that for my actual college classes.

[HolyGoji777]

Oh cry me a river, please point out where anyone said you were ignorant, dumb and looked down upon? And yes whether you you want to believe it or not, when your brought up being taught something by your family and their religion THAT DOES help form your beliefs.

But since you brought it up, please tell us how you studied other religions to decide what was the best one for you? Tell us why the others didn't work for you? Like I said to Gor, I highly doubt that you have given it that much thought. I highly doubt that you have considered converting to another religion at any point. It's possible sure, but again you would be in the vast minority that have actually done that.

right because you know me well enough to make those assumptions. and while you dont say im ignorant, dumb and looked down upon its implied it your assumptions that we dont have minds of our own. youve already said you doubt ive given it that much thought basically implying that ive just flippantly decided on a religion even though my eternal soul may be at stake. if that doesnt say you look down upon me i dont know what does.

I spent the better part of my teenage years struggling with religion. i studied science because i was excellent in that subject in school. but i also studied the other religions and i continue to study today. hinduism, buddism, daoism, judaism, islam, wicca, and scientology (if you call that a religion). ive learned about all these. hell ive even read the book of mormon. and dont imply that i skimmed through a book or looked through some pretty pictures. this took me several years to get through. i still continue to study even today because although im secure in my beliefs my thirst for knowledge has not ended.

how i came back to christianity isnt really that complicated. you know what those other religions believe and i just found i dont believe it. not that all of it is wrong im not saying that. there was some good things in those other religions. but i came back to christianity because i found a greater truth in it. sure its a lot more complicated than that but thats the conclusion. Call me what you will but i do. its not fair that you sit there and think you have us all figured out because your wrong. The pastor at my church was not brought up in a christian home, he was a drug addict for many years before he became a christian. Most of the congregation are very intelligent people.

but my beef isnt just with you its with my own religion as well and i think the problem is the christians that show up in the media. they say/do stupid things that do not coincide with scripture which makes us all look bad. there are some extremely hypocritical christians out there. this angers me just as much as the ones who think im just some sheep.

so cry you a river eh? its not about crying and im not whining. you cant sit there and claim all these things about me or for lack of a better term "my people" and expect me not to stand up for myself. sure there are some people who are as you say they are but theres a whole lot of us that are just like you with different beliefs. you just dont see US on the television most of the time and instead you get the ones that kill abortion doctors or are part of the KKK.


long story short there are sheep on both sides. but theres a lot of people that know what they are talking about but still do not agree with eachother. i just dont think its fair to look down on them no matter what they believe.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Oh cry me a river, please point out where anyone said you were ignorant, dumb and looked down upon? And yes whether you you want to believe it or not, when your brought up being taught something by your family and their religion THAT DOES help form your beliefs.

But since you brought it up, please tell us how you studied other religions to decide what was the best one for you? Tell us why the others didn't work for you? Like I said to Gor, I highly doubt that you have given it that much thought. I highly doubt that you have considered converting to another religion at any point. It's possible sure, but again you would be in the vast minority that have actually done that.
ehhhh....

As someone who talks to him rather frequently(as in, whenever he gets on....), he's been to Mormon, Baptist, and ect churches.

Either way, I was brought up as southern baptist(you can be shocked as much as you want, it's true). Though, I was never baptised(*falls to knees* thank you!). My dad has...never really been that into religion, and when I told him I was an agnostic, he didn't seem to care much. However, if you exchanged my father for my...grandfather. Things would be different. I'd be in the hospital.

[Cole Deschain]

how i came back to christianity isnt really that complicated. you know what those other religions believe and i just found i dont believe it. not that all of it is wrong im not saying that. there was some good things in those other religions. but i came back to christianity because i found a greater truth in it. sure its a lot more complicated than that but thats the conclusion. Call me what you will but i do. its not fair that you sit there and think you have us all figured out because your wrong. The pastor at my church was not brought up in a christian home, he was a drug addict for many years before he became a christian. Most of the congregation are very intelligent people.

My only problem with this is that you can;t seem to admit that your very upbringing may have prepared ou to see a "greater truth" in Christianity.

And lest anyone get too defensive (or aggressive), I'll say right now that I KNOW my refusal to believe in absolutes is a result of my upbringing,

but my beef isnt just with you its with my own religion as well and i think the problem is the christians that show up in the media. they say/do stupid things that do not coincide with scripture which makes us all look bad. there are some extremely hypocritical christians out there. this angers me just as much as the ones who think im just some sheep.

It depends on what part of the criptures you;re taliign about, is that sad thing.

"Love one another as I have loved you." - I have yet to find many who really do this, but the ones who do have my utmost respect.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." _ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

For better or worse, at the end of th day, you can go buy a bible in a bookstore, or snag a Gideon copy for free. And then you've ogtta trust that your translation isn't some politicized version, and really IS a collection of the mythology in a fairly accurate form.

long story short there are sheep on both sides. but theres a lot of people that know what they are talking about but still do not agree with eachother. i just dont think its fair to look down on them no matter what they believe.

Having your values shaped by your upbringing doesn;t make you a sheep, you know. It makes you human.

[Saruman]

right because you know me well enough to make those assumptions. and while you dont say im ignorant, dumb and looked down upon its implied it your assumptions that we dont have minds of our own. youve already said you doubt ive given it that much thought basically implying that ive just flippantly decided on a religion even though my eternal soul may be at stake. if that doesnt say you look down upon me i dont know what does.

I spent the better part of my teenage years struggling with religion. i studied science because i was excellent in that subject in school. but i also studied the other religions and i continue to study today. hinduism, buddism, daoism, judaism, islam, wicca, and scientology (if you call that a religion). ive learned about all these. hell ive even read the book of mormon. and dont imply that i skimmed through a book or looked through some pretty pictures. this took me several years to get through. i still continue to study even today because although im secure in my beliefs my thirst for knowledge has not ended.

how i came back to christianity isnt really that complicated. you know what those other religions believe and i just found i dont believe it. not that all of it is wrong im not saying that. there was some good things in those other religions. but i came back to christianity because i found a greater truth in it. sure its a lot more complicated than that but thats the conclusion. Call me what you will but i do. its not fair that you sit there and think you have us all figured out because your wrong. The pastor at my church was not brought up in a christian home, he was a drug addict for many years before he became a christian. Most of the congregation are very intelligent people.

but my beef isnt just with you its with my own religion as well and i think the problem is the christians that show up in the media. they say/do stupid things that do not coincide with scripture which makes us all look bad. there are some extremely hypocritical christians out there. this angers me just as much as the ones who think im just some sheep.

so cry you a river eh? its not about crying and im not whining. you cant sit there and claim all these things about me or for lack of a better term "my people" and expect me not to stand up for myself. sure there are some people who are as you say they are but theres a whole lot of us that are just like you with different beliefs. you just dont see US on the television most of the time and instead you get the ones that kill abortion doctors or are part of the KKK.


long story short there are sheep on both sides. but theres a lot of people that know what they are talking about but still do not agree with eachother. i just dont think its fair to look down on them no matter what they believe.

Please point out where I implied that to you? If your going to accuse someone of something then quote them. Otherwise stop playing the "pitty me" game because you know exactly what I was saying. But then if your as "religious" as you claim, then your trying to spin it doesn't suprise me, that would be the typical response.

If you have actually studied other religions to find the one thats best for you, then that is great. The thing you are failing to see is that you are in the VERY vast minority of people that actually have done that. Most people brought up in a religion typically stay with that religion without looking to see what other choices they have, and yes IMO that makes them "sheep." They blindly follow their religion without questioning it unless something "extreme" takes place. Otherwise they go about their business and have no care about changing religion and most of the time it would never even cross their mind.

Here are three things, give them a percentage out of 100% that you think would be accurate:

People follow the religion they were brought up with.
People abandon their religion for another religion.
People abandon religion all together.

Curious to see what your breakdown would be.

The point though is that most people do not CHOOSE their religion, they are born into it and that is what they know and they don't care about changing or seeing other options. Even if they do seek them out, the chances of them accepting them are not very good and they go back to the religion they started with, your an example of that. Very few people actually make the choice to change religions once they are brought up in one. The chances of someone going away from religion totally are greater then someone choosing to change religions.

Edit:

One other thing, what was it that made you want to seek out other religions? You don't need to go into to much detail if its very personal. The reason I ask is that normally if someone is going to look to another religion than the one they were brought up in, some occurrence generally causes that, its not typically done out of curiosity.

[Saruman]

What do you mean, "was I asked"? If I was asked, wouldn't that almost be like I needed someones permission? (And trust me, the age was a little past ten, but that's just being picky).

No, if you were ASKED, then that would be giving you a CHOICE. Something you have made clear now that you were not given, see where that is going.

What would my parents have done.... well, I know they wouldn't have agreed with it. But could they have done anything to stop me? No.

LOL, that you actually believe this is rather funny. So your saying that your parents had absolutely no control over you, because as you say "But could they have done anything to stop me? No." Right, I am sure your parents had no rules for you growing up and if they did they were never able to enforce them. either your parents had horrible parenting skills or your perception of their control over you is pretty well skewed, I am putting my money on the later.

And I know that they would still love me and support me if I had changed.

I don't think anyone has implied that they wouldn't.


No I wouldn't. "Head of our church for "counciling""? You make it sound like attending my church is like some kind of private school or on a contract. Would I have gotten some speech? Yeah.

See what I bolded, that answered the question completely and as expected.

Bu taken to the preacher or an elder? Yeah right. I don't know what kind of churches you have been exposed to, but if you think it is like that at all churches, I have to tell you you haven't been to one like mine.

You answered it above "Would I have gotten some speech? Yeah." That is exactly what would have happened.

D'oh!

I don't even need to look back to know you're right on that one.... Curses, I didn't see it until it was too late.

LOL

You mean sit down and study like I do for college classes?

No. I'll admit I haven't done that. I rarely even do that for my actual college classes.

Exactly.

Everything you just said was exactly what I was saying spot on.

[Gorjirus]

No, if you were ASKED, then that would be giving you a CHOICE. Something you have made clear now that you were not given, see where that is going.


Because the choice was not something they could give. It was something I inheritedly (sp?) had.

LOL, that you actually believe this is rather funny. So your saying that your parents had absolutely no control over you, because as you say "But could they have done anything to stop me? No." Right, I am sure your parents had no rules for you growing up and if they did they were never able to enforce them. either your parents had horrible parenting skills or your perception of their control over you is pretty well skewed, I am putting my money on the later.

What?

Did I say they didn't have rules and such? No. I said that if I had chosen a different religion, they could not have stopped me from joining a different religion.

Because that is a personal choice, something that another person(s) cannot control.

See what I bolded, that answered the question completely and as expected.


I would have gotten a speech from my parents. Not anyone at church, at least in any professional function. I might have had a conversation with a friend or two, that I knew at church. But I doubt that is what you meant.

Exactly.

Everything you just said was exactly what I was saying spot on.


By making incorrect inferences?

And since when do you have to become a scholar in a religion to learn about it, and decide about it? I just ask, because that's what you make it sound like.

[Saruman]

Because the choice was not something they could give. It was something I inheritedly (sp?) had.

That you actually believe that is pretty funny. Were you baptized as an infant?

What?

Did I say they didn't have rules and such? No. I said that if I had chosen a different religion, they could not have stopped me from joining a different religion.

Because that is a personal choice, something that another person(s) cannot control.

Again I just laugh that you believe this. What would you do if at the age of 10 you said "hey mom I no longer want to be Christian, I am going to become a Muslim" and she said "fine, where will you be living so we can send you your things?" Your under this misguided opinion that you could make a personal decision at a young age without your parents agreeing to it, which is hardly the case.

I would have gotten a speech from my parents. Not anyone at church, at least in any professional function. I might have had a conversation with a friend or two, that I knew at church. But I doubt that is what you meant.

I'm sure your parents would have done just that, but many parents would also have someone from their religious group talk to you as well. remember most men of the cloth are also considered to be councilors and their followers will take advantage of that in cases like this.

By making incorrect inferences?

Hardly, your own comments have done that.

And since when do you have to become a scholar in a religion to learn about it, and decide about it? I just ask, because that's what you make it sound like.

You don't need to be a "scholar" but you have to learn a good deal about a religion and it's practices to be able to make an informed decision as to if it's the correct one for you. It's not something that you can do in a day, it's going to require a good amount of research. It's not something anyone should take lightly.

[Gorjirus]

That you actually believe that is pretty funny. Were you baptized as an infant?


No. I'm not Catholic.

Again I just laugh that you believe this. What would you do if at the age of 10 you said "hey mom I no longer want to be Christian, I am going to become a Muslim" and she said "fine, where will you be living so we can send you your things?" Your under this misguided opinion that you could make a personal decision at a young age without your parents agreeing to it, which is hardly the case.


Because I know that under any circumstances short of commiting a major crime, she would never had said something like that to me. Besides, your religion is something that you decide and takes place inside of you. Unless parents have this ability to reach inside your brain and prevent you from thinking something I do not know about, what I decide inside my head (after a certain age, I agree) is not their decision.

I'm sure your parents would have done just that, but many parents would also have someone from their religious group talk to you as well. remember most men of the cloth are also considered to be councilors and their followers will take advantage of that in cases like this.


"Men of the cloth"?

What the crap are you talking about? What denomination do you think I am?

[Gorjirus]

Best description of the documentary come from the discussion after the main portion of the documentary: docu-p0rn.

All about being provacative and about show, but not about actual substance.

[Goji Son]

Agreed. All the hype and none of the reality

I wouldn't expect anything more from Cameron. Basically explains his career, just a whole lotta hype. "Go see Titanic, it's amazing, it made me cry, a guy hits a propeller!"

More like a sappy romantic triangle hits an iceberg and then a guy hits a propeller.

"Aliens is awesome! It's way better than the first one!"

Sure it is, it's just like every other formulaic action film of the 80s filled with MORE aliens, MORE deaths, and lots of EXPLOSIONS! And enough testosterone to fill an olympic sized swimming pool to the brim. Throw in an adorable kid to garner some sympathy from the audience and BANG! You gotcha y'self movie!

3D is going to be the future of cinema! Really? Because it seems like a gimmick to rekindle someone's career.