The Big "S"... (this topic is rated PG, BTW)

[Dr. Strangelove]

Bleach?

Yes, I suppose tht being dead IS a cure for a disease...it is, however, not the best available option.

Remember: we have NEVER cured a virus. We can develop vaccines that can make you less likely to contract one, or that will cause your immune system to develop its own defenses against one, but this virus mutates far too quickly to do that at this point.
Condoms help. But since Florida is abstinence only...yeah...

[Goji Son]

This could fix the education system with the lack of stupid teenagers no longer flooding the classroom. Let's be realistic people, abstinence is probably the worst and most dangerous idea we've ever implemented in a teenager's hormone driven mind. To cut teens from sex is like giving a serial murderer a loaded gun and telling him not to shoot anyone with it. They have to learn where babies come from, how to make babies, and the consequences and precautions in baby making. They have to figure it out because it seems that parents don't want to do their part of the job and teach it themselves. Condoms work, birth control works, abstinence is horseshit and it stigmatizes sex. I mean, people like this Lambrecht woman infuriate me, to say that abstinence is the only method that works despite the fact that her state is NUMBER ONE IN THE COUNTRY IN TEEN PREGNANCY just indicates that she is blatantly ignorant with her head firmly betwixt her *** cheeks! If you leave the problem of teenage sex in the hands of an amoral, reason objecting, frigid, **** like Alison Lambrecht then God help your children because they don't have a chance in hell. Just ask Billy Whitman who guzzled down some Drain-O in order to clean out his genital herpes. Well, better yet, just ask his parents when they are burying their child because some dried out tart handed him a crucifix instead of a box of condoms.


EDIT:
I didn't know tw@t was a bad word...

[Zardac the Great]

Actually...no. Condoms don't help all that much against AIDS. The virus is smaller than the holes in the latex. They reduce the risk...some, but don't remove it.

As to abstinence...why do you think teen pregnancies were lower (almost unheard of) when that was what was expected? If it's such a bad idea that doesn't work (worked for me...) then why is it that teens have only been running wild since they've been told that they can't help it?

[Morgoth]

Enforced sterilization of the lesser races. Then nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Actually...no. Condoms don't help all that much against AIDS. The virus is smaller than the holes in the latex. They reduce the risk...some, but don't remove it.

As to abstinence...why do you think teen pregnancies were lower (almost unheard of) when that was what was expected? If it's such a bad idea that doesn't work (worked for me...) then why is it that teens have only been running wild since they've been told that they can't help it?

For those who can do it, it's great. For the not-so-small portion of the young male population (and females, too, lest I be accused of t3h s3x1sm) that thinks with their dicks or twats, that's not so great because they don't know what to look out for.

A recent study said 1 out of every 4 girls carries an STD. Just imagine how high it is in the male population, gay and straight! (Let's not forget that no gay dude will ever give a girl an STD. Dudes on the down low, OTOH....) Teens didn't run wild in the good ol' days simply because people married at 12 years or younger. So, you didn't have the same scenario you do now. Not only did they marry younger, but nearly everywhere death from famine, plague, wild animals, warfare, and overusing natural resources (Easter Island, frex) killed people at such a rate that they had to hump like bunnies because people died like bunnies. In Western Europe, the Church forbade sex period if you wanted salvation. Western Europe's population and exploded and led to the Black Death all through that forbidding.

So, my point is that abstinence (or celibacy/chastity as it should be called) is a great idea in theory that never worked in practice. I'm sorry, Zardac, but you expect something that never was to magically just, well, be. :sarcasm:

[Goji Son]

Actually...no. Condoms don't help all that much against AIDS. The virus is smaller than the holes in the latex. They reduce the risk...some, but don't remove it.

As to abstinence...why do you think teen pregnancies were lower (almost unheard of) when that was what was expected? If it's such a bad idea that doesn't work (worked for me...) then why is it that teens have only been running wild since they've been told that they can't help it?

It's an individual choice whether you want to have sex before marriage but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taught how to perform safe sex and the consequences. To just teach the wonders of abstinence is just asinine when you don't include the other options. Teens have always been having sex, the only difference is the rise of AIDS in the 80s and the fact that (as KK already pointed out) teens aren't getting married as often as they were in the 50s and 60s.

[Kaiser Kronos]

It's an individual choice whether you want to have sex before marriage but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taught how to perform safe sex and the consequences. To just teach the wonders of abstinence is just asinine when you don't include the other options. Teens have always been having sex, the only difference is the rise of AIDS in the 80s and the fact that (as KK already pointed out) teens aren't getting married as often as they were in the 50s and 60s.

Since Zardac is Pentecostal, I was referring to his source material and the climate in which it was written (i.e. writings of nomadic goat-and-sheep herders who married young.) ;)

[Kaiser Kronos]

That article sucked.



Exactly who are they quoting for that crappy piece of writing? What study, hmm? WHat instance of teens drinking bleach in masses do they cite?

Pfft.

And all I have to say is...

Where oh where are the parents? It should be a parental responsibility to teach about sex, NOT the school's.

Parents....taking responsibility for their kids? You speak heresy in modern America! Burn, Conservative Infidel! :cursing:;):look:

[Raptor]

You sure don't want to learn about it from a Florida TV station! :crazy:

[godzillamoviemaster]

OK, first off, if Mountain Dew prevented pregnancy i would be friggin starile. But that is aside the point. I agree with the majority on this one- though i wish abstinance could happen (because you are right, it is 100 fool proof), it just wont for the most part. I am a teenager and i must say it would be nearly impossible to wait that long. I would hope when the time comes i would have more control than that, but i highly doubt i will. And besides, teens have been this same way since forever. The AIDS rates and stuff have only risen because it only emerged in what, the 80's? Since the virus only showed up then in only gay people, now that it hit both gay and straights and multiplies of course the statistics will get higher. Just saying. I think that parents and the education system should teach with the realistic aspect that we are TEENAGERS who are genetically programmed to bang. Sorry catholics. And besides, how many of those adults preaching to you do you think waited? Not many i would guess.

[Mecha74]

Actually...no. Condoms don't help all that much against AIDS. The virus is smaller than the holes in the latex. They reduce the risk...some, but don't remove it.

As to abstinence...why do you think teen pregnancies were lower (almost unheard of) when that was what was expected? If it's such a bad idea that doesn't work (worked for me...) then why is it that teens have only been running wild since they've been told that they can't help it?

They don't need someone telling them they can't help it to lose control, they lose control regaredless and today's sex crazed hormone driven society is a perfect example of this, and for the record I am still a virgin by choice and proud of it. But the thing is Zardac, that simply makes us exceptions to the rule, not the standard.

And besides, teens have been this same way since forever.

It's an individual choice whether you want to have sex before marriage but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taught how to perform safe sex and the consequences.

Well, said. I couldn't agree more with both of you. Sure things are worse now than they have ever been, but regardless hormones and sex drives are simply human nature and have always been. People need to be educated, by parents, schools, friends, family and any other common sense way imaginable, cuz they're gonna do it one way or the other. And do you notice I said people, not just kids. I work in a factory full of people ages 20-60 and the sad truth is the majority of them think with their crotches and not their brains and bearing firsthand witness to the results I can tell you, it ain't pretty.

As for the bleach...

Guess that's one way of cleaning out the gene pool.:darklord:

[Raptor]

OK, here we go, folks. Great job on the religion topics we've had in the past, BTW.
As mentioned, the topic we're about to explore is "out there" and has been for a long time. ;) There are various VIEWS on it, that's for sure, and that's when discussion can get sticky. So far, so good so go for it.

[Kaiser Kronos]

My opinion on religion and sex is....meh.

No religion is tolerant of sexuality, only the ambiguously-categorized atheism and agnosticism have any tolerance at all, and that is due to Western atheism in its modern form being a reaction to the sexophobic Victorian climate. It's worth noting, BTW, that the Soviets and Nazis both did everything they could to increase their birthrates, and Mao Zedong was anti-family planning in every form, and that general emphasis on baby-making is a characteristic of totalitarian regimes. The PRC is currently a mild authoritarianism.

The sex-hating of certain strands of Christianity is well-known in America, less well-known is the similar aversion to the subject Jihadists display in the Middle East, Buddhism's negative opinion on sexuality period, as well as Jewish Haredi who are just as nasty on the sexuality front as the Christian Talibaptists.

Religion of any sort and healthy sexuality are not good bedfellows. Witness the continual rapes of young boys in pre-1950s Tibet, the explosion of sex scandals of heterosexual, homosexual, and pedophilic natures among Christian ministers of all stripes (not just Catholic), Haredim who fear and loathe sex, and the sexualized cruelty the Taliban and other fundamentalist Islamic regimes cause towards women and "lesser" men.

Due to the high publicity given to Christian (and occasionally Muslim) attitudes towards sex, the attitudes of other religions are generally ignored.
Just food for thought.

[EternalMothra]

No religion is tolerant of sexuality, only the ambiguously-categorized atheism and agnosticism have any tolerance at all, and that is due to Western atheism in its modern form being a reaction to the sexophobic Victorian climate. It's worth noting, BTW, that the Soviets and Nazis both did everything they could to increase their birthrates, and Mao Zedong was anti-family planning in every form, and that general emphasis on baby-making is a characteristic of totalitarian regimes. The PRC is currently a mild authoritarianism.

Actually the only religion I am aware of that tolerates sexuality is Wiccanism/Paganism.

[Zeptron]

Nobody should have sex for a couple decades. There are too many damn people clogging up the planet already; the last thing we need is more. I mean, I'm sure as Hell never gonna have kids...

"But jerk!" you say. "What about all the hormone-crazed teenagers who really want to have sex?" I suggest teaching them about words like self-control & willpower.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Actually the only religion I am aware of that tolerates sexuality is Wiccanism/Paganism.

Perhaps it does. My experience of neopagans is that many of them haven't really left Mommy and Daddy's church they decided to rebel against....

Nobody should have sex for a couple decades. There are too many damn people clogging up the planet already; the last thing we need is more. I mean, I'm sure as Hell never gonna have kids...

"But jerk!" you say. "What about all the hormone-crazed teenagers who really want to have sex?" I suggest teaching them about words like self-control & willpower.

You are aware that without the massive influx of immigrations we'd already be having the same problems as Russia and Japan, aren't you? :eyebrow:

[Raptor]

IMO, it is ATTITUDE toward sex which no doubt got it on that so-called "news" item in the first place. I can't help but seeing a similarity to the evolution/creationism "debate". Thing is, sex is with us (as mentioned) but it is not just about perpetuating the species. Could that be where much of the "problem" might be coming from? Stick a "sin" tag on something and it's "Grab the picket signs!". Or worse, depending on the CULTURE you happen to be dealing with.
Speaking of which, I believe American adolescents are particularly at a disadvantage when it comes to this subject. Toss in the old "sex sells" we are constantly bombarded by in advertising over here and everyone is faced with an even bigger challenge, from parents to the young adults themselves. BTW, I used that term relating to fertility, not what age a particular state might deem an individual an "adult" - usually referring to "the age of responsibility". When you think of it, sex DOES involve a WHOLE LOT of that! ;)
Marriage has been mentioned. Again, it's a STATE thing here for a PAIRING to be "recognized". Our elected legislators set the rules, supposedly based on what their constituents believe/want. MATURITY seems to be a big part of the deliberations but they're no doubt not talking fertility here.

Then there is the hard part: CHOICE...

[Raptor]

You are aware that without the massive influx of immigrations we'd already be having the same problems as Russia and Japan, aren't you? :eyebrow:Want to look at census figures? Try the welfare rolls for the past three decades as well as who all has been multiplying like rabbits.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Actually, I have looked at census figures. The U.S. population, white, black, and Native American is drastically shrinking or stagnating. Without Latinos to take up the slack, we would be in the same straits Russia's in (i.e. declining population with low-grade warfare to help bleed off those who would be better off reproducing.) Many people who raise this point are racist. I know, however, that while the white population is shrinking, so's the Jewish population, while the Native American and black populations are stagnant. The Latinos are growing rapidly due to the immigration bulge.

[EternalMothra]

Perhaps it does. My experience of neopagans is that many of them haven't really left Mommy and Daddy's church they decided to rebel against....

That is true for some of them. But I can attest for the few who aren't in 'mommy and daddy's church' lol. ;)

[Raptor]

Actually, I have looked at census figures. Many people who raise this point are racist. I was thinking more along the lines of all those starving kids in Africa or wherever we're constantly getting appeals to help feed, as well as kids being supported by our own government. Teen pregnancy can be a real problem, in several respects. The Latinos are growing rapidly due to the immigration bulge.I gather you're referring to here in the States since Mexico sure isn't able to support them all, and hasn't been for a while. Of course, I don't agree with "the state" having to provide for hardly ANYONE'S progeny. You have 'em, you better be able to feed 'em. That right there ought to be a great DIS-incentive to irresponsible sex, especially on the female's part. Think about it, gals: That first nine months is just the BEGINNING so figure on putting a LOT of plans on hold. If someone says, "I sure missed out on a lot because of what I did...", listen up. And guys, too. There is such a thing as CHILD SUPPORT and it's enforced. That "roll in the hay" could well end up being an 18 year COMMITMENT, if not longer.

[Hybrid Gojira]

IMO, it is ATTITUDE toward sex which no doubt got it on that so-called "news" item in the first place. I can't help but seeing a similarity to the evolution/creationism "debate". Thing is, sex is with us (as mentioned) but it is not just about perpetuating the species. Could that be where much of the "problem" might be coming from? Stick a "sin" tag on something and it's "Grab the picket signs!". Or worse, depending on the CULTURE you happen to be dealing with.

As far as sex being "sin," really I fail to see how that has anything to do with people being stupid about it. Most protestant churches I'm aware of don't treat sex as merely a means of procareation; rather it's a way to unify the marriage - i.e. sex for pleasure. That's why I have a beef with teh catholic church - and maybe I don't quite understand it - why priests can't marry. That shouldn't be a factor.

Speaking of which, I believe American adolescents are particularly at a disadvantage when it comes to this subject. Toss in the old "sex sells" we are constantly bombarded by in advertising over here and everyone is faced with an even bigger challenge, from parents to the young adults themselves.

It's pretty sad to say, but kids are having messing around at the sixth grade now. Or sooner, and that's not a good thing.

Then there is the hard part: CHOICE...

Choice as in abortion?

Can open, worms everywhere. Probably a topic in and of itself.

[Goji Son]

Religion of any sort and healthy sexuality are not good bedfellows. Witness the continual rapes of young boys in pre-1950s Tibet, the explosion of sex scandals of heterosexual, homosexual, and pedophilic natures among Christian ministers of all stripes (not just Catholic), Haredim who fear and loathe sex, and the sexualized cruelty the Taliban and other fundamentalist Islamic regimes cause towards women and "lesser" men.

I would hardly call any of these examples as "healthy sexuality", this is more along the lines of sexual perversion under the repression of religious beliefs. Healthy sexuality is more a long the lines of a devoutly religious couple still getting kinky in the sheets.

As far as sex being "sin," really I fail to see how that has anything to do with people being stupid about it. Most protestant churches I'm aware of don't treat sex as merely a means of procareation; rather it's a way to unify the marriage - i.e. sex for pleasure. That's why I have a beef with teh catholic church - and maybe I don't quite understand it - why priests can't marry. That shouldn't be a factor.


It's not that sex being portrayed as a "sin" that makes teens stupid about it, it's because of this stigma that they are being taught anything a long the lines of safe sex or the consequences of sexual relations with multiple partners. Hell, they may not even have the proper knowledge of how to conceive a child beyond "The mommy and the daddy get naked and lay in bed together".

[Kaiser Kronos]

I would hardly call any of these examples as "healthy sexuality", this is more along the lines of sexual perversion under the repression of religious beliefs. Healthy sexuality is more a long the lines of a devoutly religious couple still getting kinky in the sheets.



It's not that sex being portrayed as a "sin" that makes teens stupid about it, it's because of this stigma that they are being taught anything a long the lines of safe sex or the consequences of sexual relations with multiple partners. Hell, they may not even have the proper knowledge of how to conceive a child beyond "The mommy and the daddy get naked and lay in bed together".

My point was that many of the so-called "religiously devout" have no more clue of a healthy sexuality than I do the math involved in string theory.

As for your reply to Hybrid, precisely.

[Goji Son]

My point was that many of the so-called "religiously devout" have no more clue of a healthy sexuality than I do the math involved in string theory.

As for your reply to Hybrid, precisely.

Okay, I thought that's what you were really saying but I just wanted to make sure ; ).

[Raptor]

As far as sex being "sin," really I fail to see how that has anything to do with people being stupid about it.As I understand it, some religions don't believe people should enjoy it; it's only about maintaining the flock. Too many people end up drinking bleach, getting pregnant and STDs from ignorance. Look at the resistance to even HAVING proper sex education! Birth control not "permitted"? Reality check time, from the animal kingdom to areas not being able to sustain ANY kind of population.
Maybe too many people aren't paying attention in Biology class when human fertility comes up. THAT seems to get lost in all the "arguments" against education IMO. And what's with the responsibility ending up with the schools? As far as I'm concerned, the average school board member is an idiot when it comes to education and a whole lot of other real world stuff kids need to be prepared for. :angry:
Choice as in abortion?No. Whether to have sex. And it's not just girls who should be having to deal with it. Maybe a lot of fellas need to get things in proper perspective before asking. ;) Love and sex are NOT interchangeable.

[Hybrid Gojira]

I would hardly call any of these examples as "healthy sexuality", this is more along the lines of sexual perversion under the repression of religious beliefs. Healthy sexuality is more a long the lines of a devoutly religious couple still getting kinky in the sheets.

I might have worded it quite differently, but the bolded portion is exactly what I meant. Sexual repression is a HUGE issue within the modern church (pretty much every sect). Sex is a good thing, and based on my beliefs should happen. Lots.

It's not that sex being portrayed as a "sin" that makes teens stupid about it, it's because of this stigma that they are being taught anything a long the lines of safe sex or the consequences of sexual relations with multiple partners. Hell, they may not even have the proper knowledge of how to conceive a child beyond "The mommy and the daddy get naked and lay in bed together".

That stigma is only part of the issue; I'm pretty sure a lack of parental explanation is even more at fault. Who has more influence over kids? Parents or the church? The school system shouldn't have to pick up slack where others fail. I'm not against sex being taught in the classrooms considering that according to a Yahoo.com article (sorry don't have the link handy) 1 in 4 teenage girls have an STD -there is an issue that needs to be addressed.


Raptor

As I understand it, some religions don't believe people should enjoy it; it's only about maintaining the flock.

That's a sad, sad thing for them. They're clearly missing out on a wonderful thing.

And Song of Songs would disagree with them.

Too many people end up drinking bleach, getting pregnant and STDs from ignorance. Look at the resistance to even HAVING proper sex education! Birth control not "permitted"?

Depends on what kind of Birth Control. The "morning after" pill is something I totally disagree with. But that's different from the pill that regulates the egg being released, or condoms.

Maybe too many people aren't paying attention in Biology class when human fertility comes up. THAT seems to get lost in all the "arguments" against education IMO. And what's with the responsibility ending up with the schools? As far as I'm concerned, the average school board member is an idiot when it comes to education and a whole lot of other real world stuff kids need to be prepared for.

Agreed. I know the state wide, "standardized" tests are a primary focus for schools. They base everything taught on these tests, which are absurd to begin with. A test is a tool, not something that necessarily depicts what a student has truly learned. I was a great student in school, but that's mainly because I was good at tests. I know many people who were probably more knowledgable than me, but did poorly because test really freaked them out. They couldn't concentrate and thus did poorly.

Everyone learns differently, too. Maybe if school evaluations and funding were not based on stupid tests, we wouldn't have this problem.

Love and sex are NOT interchangeable.

Amen.

[Goji Son]

That stigma is only part of the issue; I'm pretty sure a lack of parental explanation is even more at fault. Who has more influence over kids? Parents or the church? The school system shouldn't have to pick up slack where others fail. I'm not against sex being taught in the classrooms considering that according to a Yahoo.com article (sorry don't have the link handy) 1 in 4 teenage girls have an STD -there is an issue that needs to be addressed.


There needs to be an equal share for both parents and schools since parents don't know everything there is about sex. Of course, many have taken sex ed as a method to avoid the sex talk with their kids but this is the fault of the family dynamic. We can only control what can be taught in the schools but we can't fix the quality of responsibility of each individual parent.

[godofPH]

There needs to be an equal share for both parents and schools since parents don't know everything there is about sex. Of course, many have taken sex ed as a method to avoid the sex talk with their kids but this is the fault of the family dynamic. We can only control what can be taught in the schools but we can't fix the quality of responsibility of each individual parent.

Most Parents obviously know enough about sex to have teenagers to teach about it...

[Hybrid Gojira]

There needs to be an equal share for both parents and schools since parents don't know everything there is about sex.

Equal? No, that I disagree with. Both do have their place, but I should hope parents do more of the teaching.

Of course, many have taken sex ed as a method to avoid the sex talk with their kids but this is the fault of the family dynamic.

How exactly is this the "fault" of the family dynamic? It's poor parenting, sure. Is that what you refer to?

We can only control what can be taught in the schools but we can't fix the quality of responsibility of each individual parent.

No you cannot make people good parents, and in reality I don't think parents have great control over what is taught in schools. Certainly there is within reason, but as I stated earlier many schools are scored based on their stundent's standardized test performance. Whatever is on said test is taught and there is no getting around that because that is how we evaulate things, and that is a problem.

[Raptor]

Equal? No, that I disagree with. Both do have their place, but I should hope parents do more of the teaching. I don't think the average parent is equipped to handle a lot of stuff. Now, kids get enrolled in kindergarten, if not pre-school and Head Start, just to get "ready" for school! How many parents really take an interest in their kids education? Seems it has to be a "command appearance" to get them to show up for "parent-teacher 'conferences'" and there's even a big problem getting report cards signed off/acknowledged.
Somewhere in this forum, someone suggested people ought to need a LICENSE to reproduce. It might not be such a bad idea since kids don't come with an Owner's Manual. But how many people "read the directions" anyway? :laugh:

[Cole Deschain]

Most Parents obviously know enough about sex to have teenagers to teach about it...

But they only know the kind that results in babies most often, clearly. ;)

My own parents have never actually had "the talk" with me, truth be told- and I'm 26 damned years old now.

*shrug*

Mom just told me she'd be pissed if I knocked some girl up in high school.

[Hybrid Gojira]

Maybe if we started birthing babies the way Goji Son's sig births that "alien" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Goji Son]

Equal? No, that I disagree with. Both do have their place, but I should hope parents do more of the teaching.


It would be nice if parents took up most the slack but that is never going to be the case. My parents (mostly my mom) were very open with me about sex and never treated it as a bad thing. Her major warning was that if I was to get a girl pregnant that I would be on my own and that was a fair warning. When we put too much stock and hope that the parents will take control well then you have kids ignorantly drinking bleach because of their crack research on human anatomy and concentrated detergents.


How exactly is this the "fault" of the family dynamic? It's poor parenting, sure. Is that what you refer to?
Pretty much


No you cannot make people good parents, and in reality I don't think parents have great control over what is taught in schools. Certainly there is within reason, but as I stated earlier many schools are scored based on their stundent's standardized test performance. Whatever is on said test is taught and there is no getting around that because that is how we evaulate things, and that is a problem.

No Child Left Behind has left a huge blemish on the nation's educational system and I've dealt with it for as long as I care to remember (All Texas students were Bush's guinea pigs when he ran Texas). Would it be proactive to get rid of them? Yes! Did these standardized tests prevent me from having sex ed in health? No. Sex education still fits in the curriculum, the only problem is that many states lean towards just teaching abstinence and less on teaching safe sex.

Maybe if we started birthing babies the way Goji Son's sig births that "alien" we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Hillary. The ultimate birth control!

[Hybrid Gojira]

Hillary. The ultimate birth control!

Quoted for awesomeness.