Middle Class slips Lower, Rich get Richer

[godofPH]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24032411/

There's a reason why I'm a staunch socialist at heart...

[Raptor]

Here's another report (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0838901420080409). No answers but like they say, check the figures. Now then: Anyone care to address what might be contributing to maintaining a lower class besides the government itself?

[Kaiser Kronos]

Here's the problem with 1% of the population holding 40% of the wealth....

You get guys like this elected....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long .

So, I'm a bit concerned about this problem creating the conditions for real, true American Fascism and Communism....

The KKK and the Neo-Nazis have less chance of being America's Fascism than I have of becoming the Bishop of Jerusalem.

[Raptor]

Since you mentioned Huey Long, one of the local columnists was bemoaning term limits on our state legislators who just finished an extra session and did a decent job for a change. Then there was good ol' Jesse Helms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Helms). Realistically, it could be considered over-reaction but that seems to be how a lot of things end up snowballing completely out of hand.
Frankly, I think a lot of people have lost sight of what's really important. It sure isn't anything hawked by all the commercials that got so many in depth up to their eyeballs in the first place. Living beyond one's means just doesn't compute IMO. On a positive note, our Attorney General shut down those cash advance operations that sucker poor schmucks from one payday to the next. Wish he'd go after the Rent-to-owns with their ridiculous mark-ups...
Want a piece of the pie? Maybe start by having a better grip on what you have in hand. Believe it or not, Nucor Steel that came to town and pays great wages makes its folks take a financial management course (http://www.daveramsey.com/) up front. Maybe it ought to be offered in high school...

[Gorjirus]

Eh, still don't care.

The rich get richer because they have money in the first place. The more you have to invest, the more you are going to get.


Thus, the Middle class will stay relatively static. The economy starts to go down hill, they slip. The economy starts going up, they'll go up.

And I am staunch anti-socialist.

[Hybrid Gojira]

Why exactly is it that people think taxing the rich more helps the middle class?

I've never gotten a check that read "Donald Trump's money."

In fact, I'm sure some tank in Iraq probably did get it, or maybe the Chinese since we owe them interest.

Sweet! $1200 bucks since I'm married!! Oh wait...I'll have to pay back like $1500....

You can't cut taxes and increase spending. You can't raise taxes and increase spending to exceed the money you take in.

Well, you can, but then you get trillions of dollars worth of debt and foreign investors start trying to buy things like shipping ports in major US cities. Or bailing out our banks. Ya know, stuff like that.

And the rich? Pfft. Unless the middle class gets their cash infusion, it matters not how much taxes are taken out. But you know, I guess the US will settle for chinese money instead.

[SuperXAsh]

I couldn't have put it better myself, Gor and Hybrid. :sly:

[Kaiser Kronos]

Eh, still don't care.

The rich get richer because they have money in the first place. The more you have to invest, the more you are going to get.


Thus, the Middle class will stay relatively static. The economy starts to go down hill, they slip. The economy starts going up, they'll go up.

And I am staunch anti-socialist.

Why exactly is it that people think taxing the rich more helps the middle class?

I've never gotten a check that read "Donald Trump's money."

In fact, I'm sure some tank in Iraq probably did get it, or maybe the Chinese since we owe them interest.

Sweet! $1200 bucks since I'm married!! Oh wait...I'll have to pay back like $1500....

You can't cut taxes and increase spending. You can't raise taxes and increase spending to exceed the money you take in.

Well, you can, but then you get trillions of dollars worth of debt and foreign investors start trying to buy things like shipping ports in major US cities. Or bailing out our banks. Ya know, stuff like that.

And the rich? Pfft. Unless the middle class gets their cash infusion, it matters not how much taxes are taken out. But you know, I guess the US will settle for chinese money instead.

Gor, Hybrid, you don't get any argument from me, not on the economic issues. As a matter of fact, I'd like to add to this a little bit.

Wealth redistribution sounds perfectly fine, if people were to be responsible enough to spend all the money granted by redistribution on what is needed. To each according to his ability and to each according to his need.

As with every form of idealism flying high it slams into a brick wall the moment it actually gets put into practice. When people get money, investing it is seen as heresy. The conventional wisdom is spend on credit until it's all gone, never mind that credit. must. be. repaid.

Considering the financial responsibility (or lack thereof) of most Americans, I'm frankly surprised it took so long for the economy to start the slowdown. Yet, I still am concerned that a native-born American fascism would emerge if this slowdown gets worse. Historically, when prosperity crashes and burns, so do cities shortly thereafter from fire and sword.

But, still, to presume that people would display responsibility now with money, when Americans have been spoiled and softened by years of luxuries....

This election is the equivalent of both parties standing in a room of gasoline with fine powder sprinkled in holding flamethrowers.

[Project Pimp]

I love how you fail to mention the lazy ******* lower class, or how the middle class manages to work hard but ends up just as poor as them because they are taxed to death and all their earnings go to street scum.

The lower class and Democrats are the true enemy of the middle class.

[Gorjirus]

But, still, to presume that people would display responsibility now with money, when Americans have been spoiled and softened by years of luxuries....

I blame the Baby Boomers.

Damn hippies.

[Cole Deschain]

I love how you fail to mention the lazy ******* lower class, or how the middle class manages to work hard but ends up just as poor as them because they are taxed to death and all their earnings go to street scum.

Mmmhmmm.

Take a look at how the government spends its money, percentagewise, before you make claims like this.

Making statements from a position of ignorance helps nobody.

But here's a few fun ones that have nothing to do with the so-called Lower, Middle, OR Upper Class-

Foreign Aid- Gobbles up amazing sums of money, really, given how low our international reputation stands

Military Spending- Not a year has gone by within recent memory that the military budget didn't increase.

Education- We don;t spend nearly enough here, IMO, but the fact is, the education system is quite the money-pit.

Infrastructure- Because those Interstate Highways aren't going to repair themselves

NASA- How much does one stinking coat of PAINT for a Space Shuttle cost again?

[Raptor]

We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid anymore riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great- great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden, delusional and other liberal bedwetters.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of Non-Rights.

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, change the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful. Do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found and will gladly help anyone in need but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII: You do not have any right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV.

ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like; however, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

ARTICLE IX: You don't have the right to a job. We want all of you to have one and will gladly help you along in hard times but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE X: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness which is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over-abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

-- found on the WWW by PoliticalWatchDog

[Project Pimp]

Mmmhmmm.

Take a look at how the government spends its money, percentagewise, before you make claims like this.

Making statements from a position of ignorance helps nobody.

But here's a few fun ones that have nothing to do with the so-called Lower, Middle, OR Upper Class-

Foreign Aid- Gobbles up amazing sums of money, really, given how low our international reputation stands

Military Spending- Not a year has gone by within recent memory that the military budget didn't increase.

Education- We don;t spend nearly enough here, IMO, but the fact is, the education system is quite the money-pit.

Infrastructure- Because those Interstate Highways aren't going to repair themselves

NASA- How much does one stinking coat of PAINT for a Space Shuttle cost again?

What's your point? A real conservative would be against all of those things (with the exception of infrastructure). Where the hell were they this election cycle? Oh, that's right. They're around, the media just avoids them, and all the sheep follow suit.

[Cole Deschain]

What's your point?

My point is that you were stupidly oversimplifying things.

I thought that was obvious.

Here's your soapbox back, thank you for playing.

[Gorjirus]

A real conservative would be against all of those things (with the exception of infrastructure).

Why wouldn't a real conservative not support NASA?

[Lordofmonsterisland]

I almost thought the Bill of Non-Rights was real.....

[Project Pimp]

Why wouldn't a real conservative not support NASA?

I don't like double-negatives but true conservatives are fiscally responsible and wouldn't blow money on space projects.

NASA is freaking retarded anyway. To think that we spend so much so they can pay imbeciles to screw around with Photoshop and hue-shift Martian photos so they look "more red" boggles my mind.

But that's the kind of idiocy that runs rampant in this nation. I don't need a god damn soapbox to state the obvious. The two-party system is broken, and 300 million are brainwashed into thinking that a choice between war and socialism is a choice at all.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I don't like double-negatives but true conservatives are fiscally responsible and wouldn't blow money on space projects.

NASA is freaking retarded anyway. To think that we spend so much so they can pay imbeciles to screw around with Photoshop and hue-shift Martian photos so they look "more red" boggles my mind.

But that's the kind of idiocy that runs rampant in this nation. I don't need a god damn soapbox to state the obvious. The two-party system is broken, and 300 million are brainwashed into thinking that a choice between war and socialism is a choice at all.

When humanity stops reaching out to new places, we've failed as a species and might as well simply die off.

[godofPH]

Eh, I'm kind of split on NASA. I know how expensive it is (money that could be spent on domestic projects), but I do agree with Strangelove that we do need to keep reaching out to new places. One could suggest privatization of space travel and exploration, but I am not very keen on giving control of sky and space itself over to corporate giants.

[HolyGoji777]

LET ME MAKE CLEAR! The following responses are not towards RAPTOR but to whoever wrote the Bill of Non-rights she posted...these are just my opinions and if they offend you see article 2

We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid anymore riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great- great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden, delusional and other liberal bedwetters.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of Non-Rights.

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

Totally agree.

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, change the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots and probably always will be.

Totally agree.

ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful. Do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

Totally agree.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found and will gladly help anyone in need but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

Agree although I'm not against people who need a hand UP. Its the ones that expect a hand OUT I'm not happy with.

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

This one I'm a bit torn on because I dont believe anyone should be turned away because they are ill...its unfair to tell a man who works a full time job or more to provide for his family that he has to be in debt for the rest of his life if he or his family become sick because his workplace doesnt provide health coverage. At the same time its difficult to tell the rest of the country that they have to pay for it...i know its hard when i scrape the penny jar at the end of the month to know im helping pay for this. To be honest I'm not really sure of my position on this one.

ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII: You do not have any right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV.

should be our position but it isnt...slap on the hand and back out into society to further waste our tax dollars on social parasites like you!

ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like; however, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

wow that seems a little hypocritical considering that:

1)those "children" signed up to be there.
2)you hate oppressive governments but apparently not enough to fight for the people being oppressed. as long as it isnt you right?
3)you wont lift a finger to stop us yet you complain were there...hmmm i guess you dont like parenting the world, just your own people.
4)Yes little tyrants in funny hats who commit genocide on their own people...again as long as it isnt you right?


ARTICLE IX: You don't have the right to a job. We want all of you to have one and will gladly help you along in hard times but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

Agree and disagree. A piece of paper means nothing and is not a proper gauge of intelligence..some of the smartest people i know dont have that fancy piece of paper but are extremely talented people that could be assets to companies that will never give them the time of day because they dont have a paper telling them how smart they are. i have a serious problem with our educational system mainly because it doesnt work...children are becoming dumber. not to mention the fact that all types of children are given the same curriculum even though not all children develop at the same pace making the slow fall further behind, and the gifted get extremely bored.

On the other hand if you aren't naturally gifted mentally and dont take the opportunity to take whats being handed to you then its your own fault.




ARTICLE X: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness which is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over-abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

we as americans have become complacent and lazy and pursuing happyness is just too much work...its much easier to con someone out of it or kick and scream until idiots start to listen and you validate yourself by this because your a worthless #$%#!%@ and like making other people miserable for your own enjoyment. it only takes a few idiots to ruin a good thing.

Thanks for listening whether you agree or not. Thats one right you do have! :)

[Raptor]

No problem, HG! Actually, there are several versions of this floating around, including ADDITIONAL Amendments, usually pertaining to the English language and rewriting the country's history. Someone had simply posted the text with no link in yet another discussion about the mess our country is in.
Like the ORIGINAL Constitution, some things are pretty open to interpretation.
Hand UP vs. hand OUT should be the objective of ALL assistance type programs IMO. The U.S. health care delivery system presents a real dilemma. Not knowing where the creator of this version is "coming from", I'm not really sure what the reference to public housing is all about as each authority is a separate operation. Ours "work".
ARTICLE VIII is confusing. Is the first part supposed to be a reference to long-standing religious disputes? Maybe just: We hate oppressive governments; however, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.
ARTICLE IX is probably a poke at affirmative action. Speaking of which, "dumbing down" standards for "equalization" (especially in education) isn't doing anyone any favors.
One thing that will ALWAYS shine through about the U.S. is LIBERTY. What everyone does with it is on them. ;)

[Project Pimp]

When humanity stops reaching out to new places, we've failed as a species and might as well simply die off.

I don't disagree with you there. It is imperative that the human race migrates to space at some point. But I'm not going to compromise my views on what is best for this country just for that.

Why not let China colonize space and carry on the human race? They'll have Europa overpopulated by the time McCain's war ends. LOL.

[SuperXAsh]

I'm all for NASA, I just wish they'd stop burning up money on sending f'n satellites and other such things to Mars, and you know.... ACTUALLY GO TO MARS.

Because right now NASA programs seem to be nothing more than just an excuse to fiddle around with millions of dollars.

But noooo... we need MORE satellites. **** SATELLITES!!! The only useful satellite is the Hubble, everything else seems to be just another excuse to try and convince people that NASA's actually doing something besides ****in' around with oodles of cash and sitting on their hands.

*ends rant*

[Kaiser Kronos]

I don't disagree with you there. It is imperative that the human race migrates to space at some point. But I'm not going to compromise my views on what is best for this country just for that.

Why not let China colonize space and carry on the human race? They'll have Europa overpopulated by the time McCain's war ends. LOL.

I'm all for NASA, I just wish they'd stop burning up money on sending f'n satellites and other such things to Mars, and you know.... ACTUALLY GO TO MARS.

Because right now NASA programs seem to be nothing more than just an excuse to fiddle around with millions of dollars.

But noooo... we need MORE satellites. **** SATELLITES!!! The only useful satellite is the Hubble, everything else seems to be just another excuse to try and convince people that NASA's actually doing something besides ****in' around with oodles of cash and sitting on their hands.

*ends rant*

Antarctica has just as much benefit as settling Mars just for the Hell of it would, and the terrain is actually more livable than Mars is.

What this planet may well need to do is go to the Asteroid belt and start strip-mining it, and if necessary, go to the Kuiper belt for resources, because with the surging population, the metallic resources of Earth may well be exhausted.

Also, the PLA does not yet have the capacity to send manned spacecraft to the Moon, much less to the Red Planet, particularly with all the resources they'll need to devote to keeping their nation on a steady keel with both the Olympics there and the aftermath of the earthquake.

Herr Doktor, there's still plenty of spaces on Earth not fully explored and mapped in, and lots of historical gaps to fill in. We still need a lot of knowledge gained on this planet before going to a glorified, airless Antarctica like Mars, and Mars is as warm as it gets beyond Earth.

[Raptor]

Wonder why so many people are stressed out? Probably because of financial obligations. On top of everything, owing money can make you sick (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/06/09/stressing.over.debt.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest).
Took them a while (and polls do cost money!) to figure out the obvious but there it is, in black and white in probably every newspaper and getting a sound bite on the TV news.

Need to ease the pain with a follow-up (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/10/food.prices.irpt/index.html?iref=mpstoryview) so all those already ragged, frazzled synapses can settle down? Can't beat a typical "Duh..." report for that. :sarcasm: