Least favorite hero -

[Michiru]

Showa Gamera: Don't get me wrong, I happen to find the old movies fun, campy, enjoyable, and in a way, cute, but this is a poorly presented version of Gamera in my eyes. While certain people say complain ''Heisei Gamera has no personality without Asagi'', or lacks this so-called ''soul'', atleast this version is more of a sympatheic monster that doesn't his spend his time defending annoying children (well, maybe not all of them).

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Well, I know people are gonna crucify me for this next one, but since Michiru just had to bring it up.....

Heisei Gamera- Perhaps I could've like him better if not for Kaneko and Ito's failed attempts to pass him off as &quot;sympathetic&quot;. How are we suppose to feel any sympathy for a soul-less exterminator? Especially one that does far more harm than good (remember it was Gamera who drained all that mana from the Earth, which is what caused the gyaos horde to awaken).

Edit- Then again, Heisei Gamera did save Ayana's life. Of course, when you think about it, that doesn't say too many good things about him, either. That just shows that he does indeed notice humans, and therefore knew exactly what he was doing when he blew up all those people while fighting the Hyper-Gyaos. Yup, this is a really inspiring and sympathetic hero we have here http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 23 2004,11:28)]Heisei Gamera- Perhaps I could've like him better if not for Kaneko and Ito's failed attempts to pass him off as &quot;sympathetic&quot;. How are we suppose to feel any sympathy for a soul-less exterminator? Especially one that does far more harm than good (remember it was Gamera who drained all that mana from the Earth, which is what caused the gyaos horde to awaken).

:

Heisei Gamera had no choice but to summon the mana. He knew what would happend, the Gyaos would come back from a long sleep to wreak havoic on Japan, hell, make it the whole world. Why else did he breack the connection between him and humans. Gamera is in a difficult situation, should he not use the mana, and let the fate of Japan be destroyed? Or take a risk and use a weapon that will destroy the enemy, but will awaken ''another enemy'', whom he has fought for a eternity.

Breaking the connection was a smart move, atleast in his case. This helped him a whole lot, because while fighting, he didn't have to worry about the human population, he wouldn't have to worry as much, and possibly not get into accidents that were caused by his clumsiness (not sure if that's even a world). Since you love to critise (damn, can't spell the wold right) the Heisei Gamera series, the creators, and Kaneko so much about this, what would you have done in Gamera's shoes, errr, I mean feet. What choice did he have? This issue has been done to death in many topics before, all of this can be easily answered if you ask people like Saruman, or discuss it in a thread.

Gamera did, however, get connected back with humans, not with Asagi, but with Ayana, the girl that tried to kill him in the third movie. Just watch the end of the movie, Nagamine metions something about him being connected with someone else, and you should know who that is. If your going to tell me the creators ''failed'' on the Heisei Gamera, look at Showa Gamera once again, aside from the fact he's the original, protects children, fights unquie, weird monsters, and is a overgrown turtle that has similar origins to what Godzilla has, what makes him have ''soul''? The fact you like him better then Heisei incarnation?

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 23 2004,14:35)]Sorry, I just can't buy into the idea that Gamera needed that much mana to destroy Legion. It seemed extremely excessive and a stupid thing to do considering the consequences.

Once again, I don't necissarily mind the idea of Gamera not caring for or even hating humans. It's the idea that we're suppose to feel some sort of sympathy for him that pretty much falls flat. How should we feel sympathy for a creature that clearly has no quarrel with blowing us away in his battles with other monsters, even though he is apparently aware of us?

Also, in G3 people keep acting as if humanity is to blame to the loss of mana due to the pollution we put out and the overall wrecking of the ecosystem. Fair enough. However, it was Gamera who drained most of that mana, and somehow he isn't to blame as well? Whatever. This is another place where the &quot;sympathy&quot; for Gamera falls flat, because we are led to believe that Gamera &quot;doesn't care&quot; about humanity due to the damage we do to the enviroment, when in fact he deliberately did far more damage to the Earth than any human has ever done!

Finally, about Showa Gamera. How does defending humanity (not just children) and the Earth and fighting weird monsters give him a soul? It's because he does it out of his own free will and not just a program planted in his mind. Showa Gamera actually has mind of his own, and he is a hero, not an overgrown exterminator that does more damage than he's worth.

What are you talking about? No where in the movie did they say it was humanity's fault. It was just stated that if pollutation kept on going, it would eat away the mana, and that is what attracted monsters like Gyaos and Legion. The fact that Gamera did damage to cities have nothing to do with what were talking about.

To Gamera, the enviroment is probably not the cities, but the trees, achres of land, and probably other stuff that makes our enviroment. The damage he caused to the city was an accident, he knew humans were there, but his main accomplishment was to get rid of Gyaos, a monster that could cause more greater damage. In Gamera 2 there's a mention that Gamera doesn't possibly care for humans, but the enviroment they live in, and since humans live near the enviroment Gamera guards, it's seen easily why he protects humans. What's so hard to grasp this concept. If your still confused, or don't get what I mean, ask Saruman or make a topic about this.

What do you mean ''doesn't have a mind on his own''? Heisei Gamera has done many actions on his own free will, that includes saving others. As a matter of fact, the only time Gamera didn't act freely on his own will was when Asagi was telling him to go away, so he wouldn't get hurt. If you want an example on how he acts freely on his own, watch the scene when appears to destroy the flower, or when he appeared in Sendai, on his own will. Because he was following Asagi, another thing he did on his own will. That shows that he has soul, and isn't programmed to do things like you make it out to be.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]It was just stated that if pollutation kept on going, it would eat away the mana, and that is what attracted monsters like Gyaos and Legion.

And that's not putting the blame on humanity......how?

Like I said (and apparently you didn't understand), I don't really mind the concept of having Gamera not care about, or even hate humans. What I don't see is why we should feel any sympathy for this creature, or look upon him as a &quot;hero&quot;.

Also, your argument falls to pieces in face of how it was Gamera who drained all that mana. By doing that, he did more damage to the trees, land, and ecosystem that he's suppose to protect than humanity probably ever will. Add to that how it was the mana drain that awakened the Gyaos horde, and you realize that Gamera is the one who caused all these problems that he's supposedly protecting the Earth from. And no, once again, I do not buy it that Gamera needed to use that much mana to destroy Legion. I don't think he'd need that much to destroy Bagan, let alone Legion.

On the subject matter of Heisei Gamera not having a mind of his own, it was made rather clear in G:GOTU that Gamera protects the Earth because of a &quot;program&quot; the Atlanteans gave him. He might have some measure of free will in terms of how he goes about to accomplish the mission (but then again, it usually seems Asagi doing the thinking for him as far as planning and strategy), but the actual mission itself is not of his choosing. Showa Gamera, on the other hand, protects the Earth only because he wants to, not because somebody programmed him to do it.

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 23 2004,16:20)]On the subject matter of Heisei Gamera not having a mind of his own, it was made rather clear in G:GOTU that Gamera protects the Earth because of a &quot;program&quot; the Atlanteans gave him. He might have some measure of free will in terms of how he goes about to accomplish the mission (but then again, it usually seems Asagi doing the thinking for him as far as planning and strategy), but the actual mission itself is not of his choosing. Showa Gamera, on the other hand, protects the Earth only because he wants to, not because somebody programmed him to do it.
I'm going to post my final argument about this, I've already send a message to Saruman about this, so he could seperate these post and make it a topic/debate, I even asked him to reply about what he thinks about this.

Your whole ''Heisei Gamera doesn't have soul, but Showa Gamera does'' is not enough for me, I've provided reasons to why he does act freely on his own, and all you've been telling me is that ''Showa Gamera has soul because he does things on his own'', once again, so does Heisei Gamera. Just because he was created for only one thing, which is to protect humans, or programed, like you say, doesn't make him anymore souless then Showa Gamera, who's only ''mission'' usually seems to be saving children and defeating monsters that attack Japan.

However, it's rather ironic how you've been complaining about this for quite a while, yet, you've mentioned nothing about the first two films, which exactly similar to what the Heisei incarnation does.

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Rodan2000 @ April 23 2004,17:44)]Gamera (either) just way to over rated.

Just a question, knowing that you've bashed Gamera plenty of times, have you ever tooken the time to watch the rest of the new movies, maybe your huge dislike could change if you him a chance, and not compare him to Godzila. As for being him too overrated, hmmm .... a kaiju that I can that truly deserves the tile ''overrated'' would be this guy below me.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif

Edit: Thanks Raptor!

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]Your whole ''Heisei Gamera doesn't have soul, but Showa Gamera does'' is not enough for me, I've provided reasons to why he does act freely on his own, and all you've been telling me is that ''Showa Gamera has soul because he does things on his own'', once again, so does Heisei Gamera. Just because he was created for only one thing, which is to protect humans, or programed, like you say, doesn't make him anymore souless then Showa Gamera, who's only ''mission'' usually seems to be saving children and defeating monsters that attack Japan.

Hmm, how ironic it is that you seem to think I'm &quot;avoiding&quot; your reasons and points when in fact that's all you've done to me in every arguement we've had, including this one. It is also an irony that you say it's ironic that I've said nothing about the first two films, when in fact I used something talked about in the first film to back up my point (did you actually read what I said, or did you just skim through it?).

Like I said before (and I guess I need to say it again), it was made rather clear that Gamera is merely working on a program put in his mind by the Atlanteans. Any &quot;independant thought&quot; or &quot;personality&quot; that he may seem to display clearly comes from Asagi. No, Asagi isn't controlling him and making him act that way. The way Gamera behaves is simply a reflection of Asagi's own will and personality, due to his link with her.

By now you're probably asking &quot;where the heck is he getting this information?&quot;. Well, if you bothered to actually pay attention to what is going on in the movies, you'd see it (note: they don't actually tell you this, they show you). Once Gamera's link with Asagi had been broken, all of that &quot;personality&quot; and &quot;independant thinking&quot; we saw in the first two movies was completely lost. Gamera had then become very little more than a rampaging force who blindly blew away his opponents with no apparent thought, regard, or strategy behind how he accomplished his goal. As Tomzilla pointed out once, even that final strike against Irys with the plasma fist seemed to be more of a final act of rage and desperation than a true well-thought out strategy.

Now, the one thing you might ask is if Gamera had become little more than a blind, rampaging force after breaking away from Asagi, why did he save Ayana's life? That's a good question. Another good question is if Gamera cared enough about a single human being to save her life, why did he not care about all of those people he blew away in the battle with Hyper Gyaos? Perhaps there is something about these girls who can control Atlantean monsters that makes those monsters react to them, even after the control has been broken. Perhaps it's just a plot hole. Who knows?


About Showa Gamera. As I've been trying to ram into your mind, Showa Gamera is a creature with free will. He protects the Earth because he chooses to. Nobody programmed him to do it, and he doesn't get his emotions and free-thought from having a link with some teenage girl with laughable overacting.

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 24 2004,23:36)]Now, the one thing you might ask is if Gamera had become little more than a blind, rampaging force after breaking away from Asagi, why did he save Ayana's life?

About Showa Gamera. As I've been trying to ram into your mind, Showa Gamera is a creature with free will. He protects the Earth because he chooses to. Nobody programmed him to do it, and he doesn't get his emotions and free-thought from having a link with some teenage girl with laughable overacting.

Now, I tell you, you say that I don't listen to you in your post, but your doing the exact same thing to me, what a way to push the kettle. If you listen to the movie, you wouldn't be complaining about this ''Heisei Gamera has no soul!1'' crap. In the film, Asagi tells Ayana to stop attacking Gamera, Nagamine asks if she's still conncted, she replies with a no, but also with a ''it's this girl'' now who could she be refering too? The crazy lady that wanted control of Iris?

Heisei Gamera is not ''programmed'' or whatever your rambling about. He was created with a job, that's too protect the race o humans. So what if he ''doesn't do it on his own will'' that is what makes him different and special. The same could be said for Showa Gamera, with his role of protecting children.

However, it stills bothers for you some reason. But I can see why, as your the same guy that complained ''Gyaos is suppose to be a vampire, damn it''. Again, it doesn't look like you grasp the fact that this is a different movie series. Gamera and Gyaos have been given huge changes, if your not willing to accept them because of that, or don't have qualities of the original (which is very untrue in many cases), then I don't see how you are able to accept Heisei Godzilla, or any kaiju that's been revamped.

Heaven forbid a director you detest make up his own ideas on how to make the monsters act. Heaven forbid the creators for changing Gamera. Heaven forbid them making Gamera different then the Showa incarnation. Heaven forbid that Gamera is suppose to be some sort of machine (this is true, if you watch all films, in a way). And a at last, heaven forbid the same director make Godzilla ''evil''. God no, changes in kaiju are horrible, once again, heaven forbid!.

I tell you this Zigra, while you may come up with a clever post against me, I doubt it will be enough to cover your faults, I will say the same for myself.

[Pkmatrix]

Ah, finally! *Someone who wants to discuss Heisei Gamera's character!

Quote[/b] ]Sorry, I just can't buy into the idea that Gamera needed that much mana to destroy Legion. It seemed extremely excessive and a stupid thing to do considering the consequences.

Of course it is. *You DO realize the purpose of that Amulet Asagi was carrying around, right? *It is meant to regulate Gamera's intake of Mana as well as provide the telepathic link. *This is why it glows every so often: *that's the Mana passing through. *When Gamera breaks off the connection with Asagi, he loses that control. *Not once before this has he ever had to take in Mana on his own. *Unable to defeat Legion on his own, he was forced to take in a large amount of Mana. *But, since he'd never really done so on his own before, he had no idea how much to take in. *Too little and it wouldn't affect Legion, too much and the Earth would be damaged. *Unfortunately, as G3 shows, Gamera took in too much.

Quote[/b] ]Also, in G3 people keep acting as if humanity is to blame to the loss of mana due to the pollution we put out and the overall wrecking of the ecosystem. Fair enough. However, it was Gamera who drained most of that mana, and somehow he isn't to blame as well? Whatever. This is another place where the &quot;sympathy&quot; for Gamera falls flat, because we are led to believe that Gamera &quot;doesn't care&quot; about humanity due to the damage we do to the enviroment, when in fact he deliberately did far more damage to the Earth than any human has ever done!

The human characters act that way because that is what THEY believe. *They aren't aware of what Gamera had done, only the audience knows. *This is a common device in drama, literature, and film. *Eventually, they do figure it out (the scene with Asagi and Nagamine in the musuem). *But, humanity must share some of the blame: *our pollution and ecological degradation allowed the Gyaos to revive in the first place.

Also, you don't seem to recognize the guilt Gamera obviously must feel for what he's done. *Why do you think he's so psychotic at the beginning of G3? *Everything that's happening is HIS fault and he KNOWS IT. *The world is coming apart at the seams, Gyaos are appearing everywhere, the ecosystem is collapsing...and he has no emotional fallback (Asagi). *It's like a soldier whose been stuck on the battlefield for a few years, completely isolated from any real human contact.

Quote[/b] ]I don't really mind the concept of having Gamera not care about, or even hate humans. What I don't see is why we should feel any sympathy for this creature, or look upon him as a &quot;hero&quot;.

Because Heisei Gamera is not your average, squeaky-clean hero. *He's a tortured and tragic character. *In G1, I'm sure you'd agree, he's pretty much your average heroic kaiju. *But, in G2, he loses a lot: *he loses his connection to Asagi, the only person he's had contact with since he revived, nearly dies (several times! ) trying to defeat the Legion, and ultimately fails as Earth's Guardian when he absorbs too much Mana and severely damages the planet. *Hell, that's the very DEFINITION of tragedy. *In G3, we witness this broken being, out of his mind with guilt, obsesively battling the Gyaos in an attempt to make up for what he's done. *Tell me, how isn't that sympathetic?

Quote[/b] ]On the subject matter of Heisei Gamera not having a mind of his own, it was made rather clear in G:GOTU that Gamera protects the Earth because of a &quot;program&quot; the Atlanteans gave him. He might have some measure of free will in terms of how he goes about to accomplish the mission (but then again, it usually seems Asagi doing the thinking for him as far as planning and strategy), but the actual mission itself is not of his choosing. Showa Gamera, on the other hand, protects the Earth only because he wants to, not because somebody programmed him to do it.

No...Gamera fights the Gyaos because the Atlanteans programmed him to. *He protects the Earth because his soul is that of the Earth Spirit, which means he was pretty much chosen by the Earth to be its Guardian. *Just because he's programmed to do one thing and obligated to do another, doesn't mean he has no free spirit. *Gamera has a mind, and any being with a mind has a free will.

Quote[/b] ]Any &quot;independant thought&quot; or &quot;personality&quot; that he may seem to display clearly comes from Asagi. No, Asagi isn't controlling him and making him act that way. The way Gamera behaves is simply a reflection of Asagi's own will and personality, due to his link with her.

And I completely disagree. *Gamera does what he sees fit. *I'm not saying Asagi didn't influence his thinking, I'm sure she did. *But Gamera is most definitely not an extention of her will! *After the Amulet is destroyed, Gamera doesn't act much, if any differently than before. *And I'm only referring to the portion of G2 after the Amulet was destroyed, not G3. *By G3, his personality has gone through a significant change because what happened to him in G2 and the years afterwards.

Quote[/b] ]Once Gamera's link with Asagi had been broken, all of that &quot;personality&quot; and &quot;independant thinking&quot; we saw in the first two movies was completely lost. Gamera had then become very little more than a rampaging force who blindly blew away his opponents with no apparent thought, regard, or strategy behind how he accomplished his goal.

As I said before, look at what happened to him in G2. *Is it really all that surprising that his personality went through such a change, especially without having contact with anyone? *He was alone for three years, wracked with guilt and surrounded by Gyaos. *After three years of fighting, how could you be all that surprised that he doesn't care about who gets in the way anymore?

Quote[/b] ]Now, the one thing you might ask is if Gamera had become little more than a blind, rampaging force after breaking away from Asagi, why did he save Ayana's life? That's a good question. Another good question is if Gamera cared enough about a single human being to save her life, why did he not care about all of those people he blew away in the battle with Hyper Gyaos? Perhaps there is something about these girls who can control Atlantean monsters that makes those monsters react to them, even after the control has been broken. Perhaps it's just a plot hole. Who knows?

Remember Ayana's Amulet? *That thing didn't just connect to Iris, it connected to Gamera too. *All of a sudden, Gamera felt a connection open! *For the first time in three years, there was someone else there! *But, you know what the first thing he felt when that connection opened? *Hate. *He saw into Ayana's heart and saw what he had done to her parent's four years before. *He saw how she hated him and loved Iris, an advanced Gyaos mutation. *It wasn't until Gamera realized just what Iris was up to that he finally decided to go after him. *He fought Iris to save Ayana, even though he knew she wanted him dead, even though he knew that killing Iris would make her hate him even more. *Why? *Because he killed her parents and ruined her life.

Gamera can't care about every single person in the world. *No one can. *We'd go crazy if we tried. *But, he does care about those he connects with, because he can see into their hearts and minds...and they can see into his. *He had to save Ayana...the entire situation literally represented his failure as a Guardian. *If he didn't save her...well, I'm not exactly sure if we want to see a suicidal kaiju...

Quote[/b] ]As I've been trying to ram into your mind, Showa Gamera is a creature with free will. He protects the Earth because he chooses to.

And as I said before, Heisei Gamera has free will and the Atlanteans DIDN'T make him to protect the Earth, they made him to kill the Gyaos. *He protects the Earth because he was chosen by the Earth to do so. *His free will comes into play with his actions and relationships.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]Heisei Gamera is not ''programmed'' or whatever your rambling about. He was created with a job, that's too protect the race o humans. So what if he ''doesn't do it on his own will'' that is what makes him different and special.


http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nonono2.gif First you say that Gamera is not programmed, then you admit that he doesn't do his mission of his own free will (which would have to mean he's under a &quot;program&quot; of some sort). Make up your mind. And I thought Gamera's job was to protect the Earth, not humanity.

Quote[/b] ]However, it stills bothers for you some reason. But I can see why, as your the same guy that complained ''Gyaos is suppose to be a vampire, damn it''. Again, it doesn't look like you grasp the fact that this is a different movie series. Gamera and Gyaos have been given huge changes, if your not willing to accept them because of that, or don't have qualities of the original (which is very untrue in many cases), then I don't see how you are able to accept Heisei Godzilla, or any kaiju that's been revamped.


A few things:

1) G98 was in a different continuity too. Should we accept the changes made to Godzilla just because of that? I say no. I don't know what your opinion on G98 is, but if your one of those many G-Fans who hates the film for how much Devlin and Emmerich altered Godzilla, then it is hypocrisy to attack those two, while you praise Kaneko drastically altering monsters like Gamera and Godzilla.

2) It is very clear from reading interviews with Kaneko (especially the ones in Fangoria magazine), that he and Kazunori Ito were not out to make Gamera &quot;better&quot;. They were out to completely change Gamera into something he's not, dumping on the original in the process (neither one of them liked the original series that much). The only reason Heisei Gamera ended up having any similarities to the Showa Gamera (like his design, his ability to fly, and his seeming affinity for children seen in G2) was because Daiei forced Kaneko to keep those things in tact. A lot of my distaste with these changes comes mostly from the lack of respect towards to original subject matter that is behind the changes.

3) I realize that Gamera 2 did quite a bit to bring Gamera back to his Showa roots. That's one of the reasons I actually like that movie. Unfortunetly, as I pointed out above, most of this was apparently forced on Kaneko, and not really Kaneko's idea. Also, G3 really kinda dumped on all of that.

4) One of the primary reasons I like the Heisei Godzilla series is because of how Godzilla himself is portrayed. I'm not too keen on how some of the classic monsters were changed (I HATE the Heisei Mothra), despite enjoying the movies they appeared in overall. Then again, we never did know Ghidorah's origins in the Showa series, and at least the managed to continue his role as a tool of &quot;alien&quot; invaders (okay, okay, so the Futurtarians weren't really aliens, but close enough). Baby Godzilla, contrary to popular belief, is not a revamped Minya (as hinted by how they call him a different name).

Pkmatrix: Finally, somebody who is making a good argument in Heisei Gamera's defense. I'm really going to have to take some time to think about some of the things you said.

[Michiru]

Quote[/b] (Zigra @ April 25 2004,02:01)]then it is hypocrisy to attack those two, while you praise Kaneko drastically altering monsters like Gamera and Godzilla.

Going by your logic, I can easily say the same for the Heisei Godzilla series director. He majorly altered monsters like Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah, Rodan, and Mechagodzilla. Yet, I find it amazing how you can throw flames at Kaneko, but not say anything about a director who doesn't care for Godzilla at all. That's the only ''hypocrisy'' I see, with all due respect. The directors of Godzilla (1998), admited they never even cared for Godzilla, that it was the same for them (the movies). So, I don't see what's the point of you trying to put the director in their postions. Going by your post, it seems you view, and act ... as if Kaneko was a bad, terrible person, who commited terrible crimes against you.

The difference between him and those two .... is that Kaneko cares for kaiju. He made the change to Gamera because he was a laughing stock at that time, who cares if some people like him the old way, won't it be better if all fans join the fandom, and increae it for a obesure kaiju? Godzilla was a different story. Toho and him were not making just another flick on the lose. They wanted something different, something that would let out a message to fans and people all alike. Something Godzilla films films have been lacking

I'm sorry Zigra, you can bad-mouth Kaneko all you want, because most of the things you say aren't really true. ''Fans'' who do like his work, and ''apperciate'' it, truly do know how he's like. And from the looks of it, the only think your doing is trying to make a director look bad and discredit his work.

P.S. I believe that the Gamera in the third film is a tribute to first two Showa Gamera films. Remember that Gamera was a enemy to humans at that time.

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Quote[/b] ]Going by your logic, I can easily say the same for the Heisei Godzilla series director. He majorly altered monsters like Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah, Rodan, and Mechagodzilla.

What?! First of all, there was more than one director throughout the Heisei series. Next, let's examine each of these monsters:

Godzilla- What the heck are you talking about with this one? The Heisei series brought back the feel of the old '54 Godzilla better than any movies since &quot;Godzilla vs. Mothra&quot; '64. Tomoyuki Tanaka himself saw to it that this was done. The original Godzilla was an impersonal (not evil) force of nuclear destruction. The Heisei series captured this rather perfectly.

Mothra- I already said that I hated the Heisei Mothra, so stop trying to use it against me. &quot;Godzilla vs. Mothra&quot; '92 was also the one Heisei film that I didn't care for.

Rodan- The only way they changed Rodan was giving him a breath weapon (which he got only after absorbing energy from Godzilla) and an extra horn. Other than that, he's pretty much like he was in the Showa series.

Ghidorah- I already talked about this one. I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself.

Mechagodzilla- This is the one where I admit I've been torn. I do kinda like the Heisei version, but I've never really been sure what to think about it's new origins http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Quote[/b] ]The difference between him and those two .... is that Kaneko cares for kaiju.

Not for Gamera. Read my last post again.

Quote[/b] ] He made the change to Gamera because he was a laughing stock at that time, who cares if some people like him the old way, won't it be better if all fans join the fandom, and increae it for a obesure kaiju?

Funny, D&amp;E's view of Godzilla's status in the U.S. and their reasons for changing him were about the same as that.

Quote[/b] ]Godzilla was a different story. Toho and him were not making just another flick on the lose. They wanted something different, something that would let out a message to fans and people all alike. Something Godzilla films films have been lacking


Most of my dislike of Kaneko's handling of GMK comes from his hypocrisy on the matter. He openly critisized the directors of the Heisei and Millenium movies for portraying Godzilla in a &quot;wrong&quot; manner, and yet his version of Godzilla almost rivals GINO in it's unfaithfulness to the character. He also seems to act like his Godzilla is the most faithful to Honda's vision, which as I have argued so many times in the past, couldn't be further from the truth.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry Zigra, you can bad-mouth Kaneko all you want,

Ah, thanks for the permission http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Quote[/b] ]because most of the things you say aren't really true.

Your opinion, nothing more.

Quote[/b] ]And from the looks of it, the only think your doing is trying to make a director look bad and discredit his work.

I don't need to do that.

Quote[/b] ] as if Kaneko was a bad, terrible person, who commited terrible crimes against you.

Hmm, more like terrible crimes against kaiju that I happen to like. Yeah, I know the Showa Gamera films are far away from being masterpieces, but I happened to enjoy then enough to be taken back by Kaneko and Ito's disrespect for them. If you don't agree, fine.

Besides, a lot of my dislike for G1 and G3 comes from many other things besides the change in Gamera's character. I already explained why I didn't care for G3 to you in another thread. G1, on the other hand, featured, among other things wooden acting, uninteresting characters, unmemorable (but not necissarily bad) music, and the &quot;good&quot; special effects that so many people praise the film for were few and in between. I could go on in further detail, but I'll save that for a future argument.

[Michiru]

The fact that you feel the Heisei Godzilla captures the original is only your opinion. Because I feel it's one of the worst portrayls of Godzilla, yet, you do not see me lashing out at the director. The examples I given were proof enough of how the Heisei series director altered the monsters. However, while you think of it as a ''no big deal'' thing, please take note that your ''logic'' is being used against you, and what your saying. Because I provided something that backs up what I mean. However ... all your telling me is ''That's not true'', ''I already told you I don't like this portrayl'', and ''They didn't change him/her that much'' crap. That's call ''coming up with excuses''

So now Kaneko doesn't care for Gamera? This is just great ... what wonderful excuse will you come up with to support this. The fact that he didn't follow Showa Gamera? The fact he doesn't do thinks on his own will? What, wonder god-like excuse is next? Or is it because he chosed his own way to portray the character. You don't follow that at that time, Gamera wasn't exactly loved. Maybe buy little children, but certainly not all adults alike. Kaneko revamped Gamera, and made him grow a huge fanbase. We are those fans, yet, it isn't good for you? That makes no sense at all, your just as confusing, as you refer me to my post.

If making the Heisei Gamera series was a ''disrespect'' to your beloved, favorable incarnation, then the Showa Gamera films are a ''disrespect'' to the monster movie genre. And if your going to give me that ''it's your opinion'' crap, take note that you mentioned nothing of that in your post.

Kaneko is such a terrible man, he doesn't know what he's doing, he's a horrible director! Maybe you should teach him how to be a better director, since you know much how it is to be. Or perhaps Kaneko can ''teach'' you a few things about how to make movies, before you quickly whine and nitpick about what you don't like and feel that you need to trash around. &nbsp;

Kaneko said something ''hypocritical''. Wow, god forbid that! Especially when normal human beings say things like that atleast once in a life time. Wait, your telling me that you've never anything like that Zigra? No, wait, perhaps you have, but it isn't a big deal compared to this issue, cuz, it's about Godzilla! *gasp* The end of the world is coming!

Indeed G1 is a terrible, terrible movie! But the Heisei Godzilla films are more terrible. Wooden/Stock characters who's motivation is to usually just to kill Godzilla! Repeatable music! As for acting, well, I can't say anything, because I don't know anything about acting! So, people who aren't actors say something like ''they can't act'' shouldn't be talking, unless they go to film school or sign up for plays! Yes, all the movies are crappy! Hell, every single kaiju film is.

Well, enough of my sarcasm there. I will just say, that you always have something to say Zigra. Always coming up with a excuse, always complaining about what you don't like. It pretty much looks your nothing happy with anything that doesn't come as the way you expected.

[HolyGoji777]

my head hurts &nbsp;http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dontgetit.gif

[Jokezilla]

Mine too. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>Now you guys know why I stopped arguing in this thread. Obviously it wasn't going to go anywhere. It was clear that neither I nor Michiru were going to say anything to sway the other's opinion, and the whole argument was on the verge of a flame war.

Frankly, I really don't care if Michiru likes Kaneko's films or not. We all have our opinions. But, I'm not obligated to agree with him (her?) anymore than he/she is obligated to agree with me in return. Nor am I obligated to keep my opinions on such matters silent just because a few slobbering fanboys want all people who don't agree with them to keep their mouths shut.