Should G2012 fight another monster?

[alienhulk2099]

Anyone want to make a poll and wonder who Godzilla's opponent will be?:p What? It IS possible (voting for King Ghidorah personally).

[biohazard85]

Really, I'm hoping for a solo film this time. Something that focuses heavily on just Godzilla.

[Raptor]

Added a POLL.

"YES" voters: If you select NEW MONSTER or FAMILIAR ONE, please DISCUSS IT. Use the YES option if you aren't picky and just want to see more than just Goji up there on the big screen. :p

[mecha-kumonga]

I say no because their introducing Godzilla to a whole new audience here, people who only know 98. What was it the mid 90's when B movie Sunday afternoon or Saturday night really got fazed out? Before that the last Godzilla movie that got a good sized release in the States was Godzilla 85. So you have at least a whole generation of Americans that may not have been exposed to Godzilla movies.

And yes I know G2K got a big release in the States but the box office was just over 4 million dollars and that averages to about 2 thousand dollars per theater. Not a lot of people saw it over all.

[BS Digital Q]

I say yes. I want to see some good ole giant monster action dammit.

[G2KMaster]

I say no. Keeping it on Godzilla will help keep the allegory, that is if there is any to be had. And there should be, with all the stuff with North Korea and Iran going on. Really...


And yes I know G2K got a big release in the States but the box office was just over 4 million dollars and that averages to about 2 thousand dollars per theater. Not a lot of people saw it over all.
Wrong. $10 million. Not $4.

[Shark Raptor]

No. This is a second chance at establishing an American Godzilla here in the US.

Godzilla needs a solo outing to show what he can do, wreck stuff up and hint at the sequel. They need to make people want more of Godzilla, especially the people who'll be getting into the franchise through this film. They should be going "I wanna see that Godzilla fight so-and-so", not "That was a pretty good fight. Good movie" and just leave it at that.

[Mecha74]

I'd watch it either way myself.

But if it is a solo film, and it does well.(crossing fingers) Then the sequel will more than likely have an even bigger budget and thus make it the perfect playground for a second kaiju.

[Excelsior]

Want to separate the common viewing experience from GINO?

Have him fight another monster.

The American public already saw a solo American Godzilla. Show 'em what they missed. Personally, I'd say follow the original series' lead and throw in Anguirus. Plus, if I were the brass at Legendary I wouldn't be counting on a sequel. There's no guarantee that the film will do enough biz to warrant one. If I were they, I'd cram as much cool stuff into this one as I could.

[mecha-kumonga]

Wrong. $10 million. Not $4.


Opps your right that was opening weekend. sorry I read that wrong and screwed up. Still IMDB is showing it open from Aug to Dec and it raked in 10 mill in the end. Thats not a whole lot of people.

[GodzillaThrone]

You can have the movie's main focus on Godzilla and have him fight another monster. You can make it solo, but then how will it end? I dont want to watch him fighting the military the whole movie. And you simply cannot have Godzilla killed. You need to make Godzilla destructive and root for him at the same time. And the best way IMO is to have him fight something that might be a threat to the earth.

[GodzillaThrone]

Opps your right that was opening weekend. sorry I read that wrong and screwed up. Still IMDB is showing it open from Aug to Dec and it raked in 10 mill in the end. Thats not a whole lot of people.

Because it was a foreign Japanese movie with chessy dubbed dialogue and special effects. The American audience doesnt want to watch that.

[Movie-Brat]

If he's fighting another monster, it's like an original beastie.

[Raptor]

No. This is a second chance at establishing an American Godzilla here in the US. That part I'm a bit worried about.
Godzilla needs a solo outing to show what he can do, wreck stuff up and hint at the sequel. They need to make people want more of Godzilla, especially the people who'll be getting into the franchise through this film. They should be going "I wanna see that Godzilla fight so-and-so", not "That was a pretty good fight. Good movie" and just leave it at that.Agreed. :thumbs: As well, we're going to need a good STORY.

[Angiru-San]

- Interesting question with some far more interesting opinions.

Honestly, I expected to see everyone wanting another classic Toho kaiju thrown into the mix... but maybe that is just me.

I think it all depends on the story and plot - another monster could easily be the REASON that Godzilla 'returns' - if that is the angle they go with. I honestly am not sure I want to see another Godzilla origin story. G'54 is great as what it is - and we've already seen a redone origin in the US 12 years ago... too soon to "redo a redo of an origin" if you ask me.

[Orga777]

No. Goji needs a loan film to establish himself and redeem himself in view of the US audience after that travesty in 1998.

[Scorpion13mk2]

And a remake, a PROPER remake, I think, is right in line.

Toho has been using the original Godzilla as a jumping off point for what? Near 30 years now. I dont think that a well done remake is gonna hurt anything. No need to be restrained by the first movie, I think.

[chillening]

No, because then it'll take the focus off Godzilla. Godzilla 2000 should have been a solo film, but the moment the UFO showed up the movie switched its focus and Godzilla was forgotten for the next 40 minutes or so.

[Tomzilla]

No. Goji needs a loan film to establish himself and redeem himself in view of the US audience after that travesty in 1998.

While I'm sure the filmmakers will do their best to cater to the fans and the general public, I doubt they'll do it to redeem the character. There's nothing to redeem. Godzilla will always be a pop culture icon, a character beloved by millions the world over. No matter how bad the 1998 movie was it could never tarnish such a majestic, legendary character in my eyes.

It's also unhealthy for the filmmakers to try this. I highly doubt Nolan was thinking, "Man, I really hope the public forgets Batman & Robin." No, he was thinking on how he'd tell a great story and make the film flow. That should be the focus.

With that said, I agree it should be a solo film; however, if the story demands it, I'd welcome a new monster for Godzilla to fight.

[Zardac the Great]

Not a Toho powerhouse.

That means no Ghidorah.

And no Bagan, either!


Bringing in a powerhouse is fine for a sequal, but if we don't establish that Godzilla is really tough stuff first, the other monster will seem weaker.

[Hybrid Gojira]

The question is predicated upon how the story or arc of stories is written. If Godzilla does well, I'd expect sequels. That being said, I like origin stories involving Godzilla. When other monsters are thrown in, some of his character mystique is lost and you can cram too much into the story to fit the screen time. I love monster romps as much as anyone, but I want something unique in a new film.

Not:

Godzilla appears.

Godzilla is explained.

New monster arrives 45 monutes into the movie and is subsequently explained.

Godzilla and monster fight.


Now it is entirely possible to do a monster fight well, but I am I crazy to want some chatacter development too? Think AVATAR with chatacters you actually cared about...a SPFX bananza with characters you care for and want to see live/die etc.


If there is a potential story arc, I think an origin story would be the way to go. The sequel can introduce a new monster.

Of course, I'm still a little torn there...

Giant monsters destroying buildings in an epic struggle to the death?

Yeah, pretty appealing none the less.

[Zardac the Great]

Not:

Godzilla appears.

Godzilla is explained.

New monster arrives 45 monutes into the movie and is subsequently explained.

Godzilla and monster fight.





Right. I'd actually prefer to keep the monster(s) orgins a bit ambiguous, at least at first. Hint at nuclear orgins. In fact, hint heavily at nuclear orgins, but don't have the humans figure it out at first. delay it. By like, several movies.

[Enshohma]

Here's the deal...compared to Japanese monster movies, Hollywood blockbusters are almost completely lacking of decent monster-against-monster action, minus the few exceptions that might last a couple of minutes, or even seconds on screen. Probably because CGI is so bloody expensive and complicated, in which only the biggest of made directors having the power to push it beyond its typical limits...for better or for worse (Transformers 2 anyone?)

So I'd be more willing to see a proper American Godzilla with one or more opponents for him to battle, in extended fight scenes, for that would not only be true to the spirit of the Japanese films, but be unique compared to all other summer event films.

No doubt the critics will wine about it, but they seem to share an almost universal bias against giant monsters...they all loved How To Train Your Dragon, but look hard enough, and the massive Green Death is always in their lists of negatives...the cry babies.

I do agree however, that they should hold off on the likes of Mothra or King Ghidorah for the sequels, and build up an existing second leaguer like Gigan or Hedorah, or make-up a completely new opponent (Deathla's time to shine). If this was a perfect world, it be a nice mixture of both, but that never happens outside the Ultraman franchise...*sigh*.

[Angirus7899]

I think he should fight another monster but it should focus on godzilla for the most part and i think bagan should be in the movie.

[Scorpion13mk2]

I cant see having a monster in it other than Godzilla being anything but contrived. Godzilla is interesting enough that he doesnt need any backup if the movie is good. I mean, look at the two previous solo movies. 54 needs no explanation, and 84 was pretty damn good as well.

They have to keep Godzilla invincible, though. None of this going down to a missile strike or anything. They should show Godzilla waltzing right through that and the military freaking out about it.

[Hybrid Gojira]

I think I'm more worried about the story and characters than the CGI. Hollywood loves eye candy, but many big budget films suck when it comes to putting eye candy with people you actually care about. Transformers looks amazing, but it's hardly anything new or worthwhile in terms of movies. AVATAR is fanatsical and a one of a kind experience, but the characters are mostly dull.

Also, the characterization or Godzilla is obviously really important. No more running from the military, no stupid ideas like *hey, let's change his raor!* etc.

I have to wonder how much Toho will keep certain creative controls in this film compared to GINO, or if they will have much to do in that regard. I guess only time will tell.

[Raptor]

I think G2K took the story part back to the human characters pretty well and was an effective UPDATE. No doubt 2012 is also going to be contemporary in its politics and characterizations UNLESS it will be a period piece as KING KONG was. Hmmm....

[anguirus55]

I voted yes.

1) Because it's awesome.

2) It invites comparisons to the original film, which frankly you probably don't really want. You're not going to be more relevant, interesting, or emotional than G54.

Even G85 had a fight between Godzilla and the Super X, which was 1) awesome and 2) in keeping with Godzilla's post-1954 portrayal as a warrior.

I don't care what Godzilla fights as much (it can be a non-anthropomorphic military vehicle like the Super-X, or even just "the military" as long as it's interesting) as long as he gets to fight and kick serious ***.

[Gorgozilla]

Want to separate the common viewing experience from GINO?

Have him fight another monster.

The American public already saw a solo American Godzilla. Show 'em what they missed.

Gotta differ with you there. The American public did not see a "solo american Godzilla." What they saw was a giant lizard being called Godzilla. That's why it's GINO- it has the Name Only. What we're talking about here is an American Godzilla with the attributes Big G is supposed to possess. No running from the military, or dying from a few missiles. And of course, he should have the traditional radioactive flame breath (with his spines glowing when he uses it), not that wind breath.

I voted "no" in the poll, but I will still watch (and hopefully enjoy) the movie if there is another monster. If they do go that route, my first choice would be for something original. If they wanted to pay for rights to another Toho creation, I agree with those who have said they should use a minor monster such as Angilas, Megalon or Gigan, and save the "heavy hitters" (Ghidorah, etc) for a potential sequel.

[anguirus55]

I'm actually surprised by which way the poll is swinging. What does Godzilla DO, if not fight things? About the only way to make a giant monster movie that doesn't involve a fight is to do it as a disaster movie, and I'm not a huge fan of those. Also, then you have to top Cloverfield, only substituting a superior/iconic monster character for the really well-done camera gimmick.

I think the filmmakers should be looking at the Rossio/Elliott script for a very basic structure. Godzilla is the focus of the film, but there is another plotline involving a monster who is connected with him and even more of a threat. When the characters figure that out, they help get Godzilla on his feet and Godzilla fights the other monster.

Granted, there are a lot of ways to make a Godzilla movie. He's one of the most inherently flexible characters in cinema history. But if they want to get the most out of him IMO, he should get to be a badass, not the name on the marquee to get you into an American disaster movie.

At this stage I think it's crazy to assume that this movie is going to be a great piece of cinema, since there's only one Godzilla movie that succeeds on that score, and the last American Godzilla movie wasn't even a Godzilla movie. Anything that maximizes Godzilla's time on screen to be badass at the expense of the near-inevitable "opposites attract romance" and "grizzled character actor making peace with his estanged daughter/son/wife" plotlines is what I want in this script. :laugh:

(A Godzilla solo outing could be enhanced by making the monster himself an extremely memorable character, a la GMK...which, ironically, still had a lot of brawling.)

[Zardac the Great]

Anything that maximizes Godzilla's time on screen to be badass at the expense of the near-inevitable "opposites attract romance" and "grizzled character actor making peace with his estanged daughter/son/wife" plotlines is what I want in this script. :laugh:




This.


Gimme more Goji, gimme less cliche.

[Orga777]

I'm actually surprised by which way the poll is swinging. What does Godzilla DO, if not fight things? About the only way to make a giant monster movie that doesn't involve a fight is to do it as a disaster movie, and I'm not a huge fan of those. Also, then you have to top Cloverfield, only substituting a superior/iconic monster character for the really well-done camera gimmick.

I really do not think it would be that hard to top Cloverfield if the creators of this movie take it seriously enough, Ang. Cloverfield was okay, but, really, we have all seen much better in the genre.


I think the filmmakers should be looking at the Rossio/Elliott script for a very basic structure. Godzilla is the focus of the film, but there is another plotline involving a monster who is connected with him and even more of a threat. When the characters figure that out, they help get Godzilla on his feet and Godzilla fights the other monster.


The reason I do not like that idea is because it will take away from Godzilla. To start things off, it is better to have Goji solo instead of fighting another kaiju of sorts. I do not mind if there is something like the Super X that he has to fight, but another kaiju I just don't like the idea of at all.

[Seer235]

There's a couple reasons why I'd rather see Godzilla be in a solo movie.

As everyone has said, it takes focus away from Godzilla's character. Basically, imagine if Gojira had been more like GRA. If Godzilla goes through a city while duking it out with another monster, the feel of the chaos and destruction is going to get lost. Also, "searching for an old enemy" is not going to give a characterization to Godzilla like Gojira did.

It'll tie Godzilla's origin inexorably with this other kaiju.

Similar to what I mentioned in the first point, it'll take away from the human plight and attempts to get rid of Godzilla. Either they would end up getting out of the way and letting the monsters fight (more like GRA) or actively leading one to fight the other (more like in KK vs. G). That's fine for a Godzilla movie, but not really what I'd want for a first movie.


Of course, some of this can be dampened if Godzilla fights a more Anguirus-like kaiju (basically, do it like GRA did and have Godzilla kill him before the end of the movie and let the rest focus solely on Godzilla), but it still does the stuff I mentioned to a degree.

[Raptor]

One thing about American movies like this is that "we" almost always have to win. If they want to go that route, Goji should have plenty to keep him onscreen IMO. :p

[darthzilla99]

I think he should fight another monster. I understand the whole "It should focus on him" deal, but just because another monster is in the movie does not mean the focus is off Godzilla. I have friends who keep saying "I DO NOT WANT TO SEE GODZILLA FIGHT JUST THE MILITARY!! I WANT TO SEE HIM GO AT IT WITH ANOTHER MONSTER COLLIDEING INTO SKYSCRAPERS AND FALLING ON TOP OF SMALL BUILDINGS!!" They say things like this and even said that was one of the reasons why they did not like GINO (as well as him not being godzilla and other reasons).

[HolyGoji777]

i could go either way on this one. G54 and G85 were both awesome. then again i LOVE new monsters when they are done right.

[Orga777]

I think he should fight another monster. I understand the whole "It should focus on him" deal, but just because another monster is in the movie does not mean the focus is off Godzilla. I have friends who keep saying "I DO NOT WANT TO SEE GODZILLA FIGHT JUST THE MILITARY!! I WANT TO SEE HIM GO AT IT WITH ANOTHER MONSTER COLLIDEING INTO SKYSCRAPERS AND FALLING ON TOP OF SMALL BUILDINGS!!" They say things like this and even said that was one of the reasons why they did not like GINO (as well as him not being godzilla and other reasons).

Then it is just another big monster movie. In order to establish an icon like Godzilla to an American audience, you need to get away from the usual kaiju showdown and flesh out the character. Goji is more than just another monster. He is like King Kong. He has his own personality. You subtract from his character if there is an on-screen kaiju fight. ESPECIALLY when Hollywood makes something. It will go for a more action filled movie rather than a substance filmed movie. I cannot see Hollywood replicating something like Godzilla vs. Biollante or Mothra vs. Godzilla. Especially on its first go around. I don't trust Hollywood with something like that till they at least show that they can make a decent stand alone.

[BS Digital Q]

Establishing a character and having him/her fight an equally powerful opponent are not mutually exclusive in storytelling.

[anguirus55]

Cloverfield was okay, but, really, we have all seen much better in the genre.

Yes. And all of them (except G54) had a battle.

To be honest, Cloverfield has to be in my top ten kaiju films just for doing something distinctly different while still being unmistakably of the genre. It was also the first time American filmgoers took a giant monster seriously since King Kong (1933). (Hey, remember how King Kong had a fight with other giant "monsters" and yet he had characterization?)

As I said, I'm flexible, but I think Godzilla's at his best when he has an *** to kick. He's got to fight the military too, but I'd prefer to see both. Especially because thinking of this as a series-in-the-making may be a bit premature.

[Raptor]

To be honest, Cloverfield has to be in my top ten kaiju films just for doing something distinctly different while still being unmistakably of the genre. It was also the first time American filmgoers took a giant monster seriously since King Kong (1933).

As I said, I'm flexible, but I think Godzilla's at his best when he has an *** to kick. He's got to fight the military too, but I'd prefer to see both. Especially because thinking of this as a series-in-the-making may be a bit premature.Actually, when we were kids watching all those "nature gets irradiated" giant critter flicks (like THEM), we we pretty impressed. As adults, we have to suspend our disbelief to get anything out of about ANY science fiction story. I'm wondering if too many movie goers simply overlook that little detail.
Thing is, Kong had his "lost world"-type island which conveniently had dinosaurs, pretty impressive creatures in their own right. Now, I think it would strictly be the modern (U.S.) militiary that can take on the threat presented.
Someone mentioned a "super weapon". Maybe we should start another thread... :)

[Scorpion13mk2]

Sorry Ang, I just aint buying it. Godzilla doesnt need to fight another monster to be good, and I point out again that two of his best movies, KOTM and 84 had no other monsters in them. Yeah, you had the Super-X, but it really wasnt a REAL monster opponent. Not like MechaGodzilla.

A good, interesting conflict with conventional military forces should be in there, though.

[darthzilla99]

[quote=Orga777;330773]Then it is just another big monster movie. quote]

I could not dissagree more. You mentioned King Kong. He fought 3 v-rexs, a bunch of giant bats, and air planes and yet it still felt like the movie was on kong and not the dinosaurus or the military or 30's New York. A great examble would be the Incridible Hulk. That movie felt like it was a Hulk movie cause you had things Hulk had to work out himself. He had an opponent at the end of the movie and he had to fight him. That movie did not feel like just another super hero movie fighting the bad guy type but it was a Hulk movie and yet he had the abomniation. Even when the movie talked about how the guy became the abomniation, it still did not detract the movie from a Hulk. It did not feel like a Hulk vs. the abomniation, it was a Hulk movie. Plan and simple. The samething was with Batman begins and that one had three opponents batman had to face. The samething can be done with Godzilla. You could easily delve into him doing why he is doing those things like destruction and if say King Ghidorah comes, why he ends up fighting him.

[Seer235]

I could easily accept there being another kaiju in the Godzilla movie (although I'd personally prefer there to be just Godzilla), but I think the ending would have to be dealing with just Godzilla and humans. Like Kong, I guess. Though Kong and Godzilla are vastly different characters.

[anguirus55]

^ The '94 movie actually pulled that off. The narrative leads to an uneasy human tolerance of Godzilla as a manageable threat who is capable of dealing with unmanageable ones.

The Showa movie series evolved in this direction. The Heisei series compressed that narrative. I wouldn't mind seeing it compressed more, as many recent reboots have done a phenomenal job in distilling a character to its essence and then including things people like from the whole franchise (Casino Royale, Star Trek, and it looks like the new Nightmare on Elm Street is trying it).

The thing that makes a reboot worth trying is the benefit of hindsight. You get to do only what works.


Sorry Ang, I just aint buying it. Godzilla doesnt need to fight another monster to be good, and I point out again that two of his best movies, KOTM and 84 had no other monsters in them. Yeah, you had the Super-X, but it really wasnt a REAL monster opponent. Not like MechaGodzilla.

I never claimed that it was "needed," but in a vacuum, I think the way to show American audiences what Godzilla is about is to have a monster battle. This is going to enhance his characterization, not lessen it. Having him be the "villain" of the piece runs the risk of making him too unsympathetic, and I think that a modern Godzilla movie where the audience is wholeheartedly rooting for the military to kill the ******* is leaving out great heaping chunks of what made the character so appealing in the first place.

This was, by the way, the ONLY thing GINO got right. Even though the beast was ultimately an obstacle to be blown away by America****Yeah, you never hated him. However, if you make Godzilla too powerful, have him kill a lot of people and wreck a lot of stuff, you need to have something in there that makes us like him. There are many ways to do this, some more subtle than others, but one visually exciting thing is to have another threat.

I guess my point is that, assuming that this film is a loving reboot of the franchise rather than bold and original and groundbreaking, you can either reboot the whole franchise, or you can reboot G54. Not sure I trust them to do the latter, especially in a post-Cold War political climate.

It's worth asking ourselves: what IS the kaiju genre? Do we want the whole thing to come to America, or just parts of it? And which parts?

And for the last time, I already said that I consider the Super-X duel to satisfy my conditions! Just, you know, less silly-looking if it gets redone. :P

[Orga777]

I could not dissagree more. You mentioned King Kong. He fought 3 v-rexs, a bunch of giant bats, and air planes and yet it still felt like the movie was on kong and not the dinosaurus or the military or 30's New York.

King Kong '05 also sucked.

A great examble would be the Incridible Hulk. That movie felt like it was a Hulk movie cause you had things Hulk had to work out himself. He had an opponent at the end of the movie and he had to fight him. That movie did not feel like just another super hero movie fighting the bad guy type but it was a Hulk movie and yet he had the abomniation. Even when the movie talked about how the guy became the abomniation, it still did not detract the movie from a Hulk. It did not feel like a Hulk vs. the abomniation, it was a Hulk movie. Plan and simple. The samething was with Batman begins and that one had three opponents batman had to face. The samething can be done with Godzilla. You could easily delve into him doing why he is doing those things like destruction and if say King Ghidorah comes, why he ends up fighting him.

Godzilla is not the same thing as a superhero. A comic book character needs a main antagonist in order to carry a film or the whole thing degrades into pointless. Godzilla, on the other hand, is NOT the same. Goji is supposed to be a force of nature. It doesn't need an antagonist since Godzilla himself is supposed to be the antagonist for the human cast.

No matter the film in the Godzilla series, only a sliver of them did kaiju vs. kaiju perfectly while keeping the human characters interesting. Mothra vs. Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, and GRA. I don't WANT another daikaiju showdown. It will only hurt the overall quality of the film. Especially in Hollywood hands. I have had enough bland and terrible sci-fi action movies in the last few years thank you very much. They can make a Vs. movie once they show competance in making a stand alone film first.

[anguirus55]

^ You are presuming that a vs. film will be harder to make good than a single-monster film. I'd say that the opposite is more likely to be true.

Mothra vs. Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, and GRA

Even if we take your list as fact (which is a HUGE concession considering which of my personal collection of kaiju films pass the Girlfriend Test...hint, every movie with Mechagodzilla easily does so, not to mention GMK), that's still 3x more good vs. movies than there are good solo outings. (1.5x if you see G84 as that good.)

Remember my "don't get your hopes up thread"? The odds of this movie being a great piece of cinema are about the odds of me getting a Nobel Prize. I'll be surprised if it's as good as Iron Man. Are we allowed to just want a movie that's fun?

[KaijuKing]

Originally posted by anguirus55:
Are we allowed to just want a movie that's fun?


That's kind of my take on this, too. And fun is ultimately what the whole daikaiju genre is about. Say what you will about the deeper movies' compelling human characters, allegories, and so on...at the end of the day, that stuff isn't what we watch these movies for. First and foremost, we want to see giant rubber dinosaurs smashing toy buildings. We want to see carnage. We want to see things explode. The rest of the movie's content, well-executed, is just icing on the cake.

That's not saying I want Transformers 2 with kaiju, of course. I want the movie to make sense and have some level of seriousness to it. But including another monster and having a good, satisfying fight scene would greatly improve this movie's appeal for me.

[darthzilla99]

[quote=Orga777;330821]King Kong '05 also sucked.


Not meaning to get off-topic, but I also could not dissagree more and I am quite surprissed you hate that movie, I would have thought that movie would be more your ally. Kong 05, even from a pure film making point of view and not personal ideas, is possibly tencially one of the top 5 monster movies of all time, beating all the Godzilla movies except Gojira and is the second best Kong movie only beaten by the original Kong movie (which also had Kong fighting 3 different dinosaurs and that movie and Gojira are considered the two best giant monster movies of all time). It is also considered the best remake movie of all time by alot of movie critics.

Anyways, I still think Godzilla should fight someone.

[Raptor]

O/T also:

Now that you mention not liking it, look at KONG 05 and TITANIC. Both were period films using modern day SFX. KING KONG and GOJIRA had IMPACT when they were made, no doubt due to the title characters. TITANIC was a love story with great SFX, nothing more but the film LOOKED GREAT for contemporary audiences, like KK05.

BOT: I'm hoping G will "carry the film" and want the story and humans' actions to make sense. If a big name actor is in it, let's hope it's not all about him/her. :hmmm:

[Tomzilla]

It's hard to determine what kind of storyline we're getting until we find out who's running the show.

Regardless, I'm fine with Godzilla going solo or fighting other monsters. But let's not forget, the filmmakers will not make this just for the fans. It has to be accessible to the mainstream audience. With such an iconic character, we will being seeing tons of action. The best action in giant monster films typically revolve around 'em fighting it out with humanity caught in the middle.

But you can have that and profound storytelling, too. Give us human characters we want to care about. Give us ones we want to see get stepped on.

Godzilla is one of the greatest fictional characters ever for a reason. He's easily recognizable, has a unique personality, and has tons of symbolism. You can use him in so many stories. Let's examine what kind of plots solo or kaiju vs. kaiju films will bring.

Film Plot Types-

Serious: Gojira serious. Here we're introduced to several meaningful characters. They remind us of people we know or aspire to become. Suddenly, they find themselves fighting for their lives in a situation akin to a volcanic eruption or a hurricane. We walk away, deeply touched by the resonating message. And if it's this damn good, it becomes an instant classic. Fans the world over rejoice.

Serious Action: Think The Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, and GMK. We have a great story and memorable characters. It could even use massive amounts of symbolism. Maybe it'll remind us that nuclear weapons still threaten our existence. Of course, we quickly forget this by seeing some awesome action sequences. Godzilla fighting the military? Godzilla fighting another monster? Godzilla fighting another monster with the military caught in the middle? Entertainment galore! The majority of us leave the theaters happy. We go see it several times and/or wait impatiently for the Blu Ray release. Godzilla enthusiasts find greater meaning, whether the storytellers intended to or not. Hardcore DD debating ensues.

Brainless Action: Godzilla: Final Wars. Hell, let's throw in Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. The plot is an absolute wreck. We get some great fighting sequences. We also get some lousy ones. Maybe if we see this at the I-MAX, we'll enjoy ourselves. Expect many (or few) to like it until the end credits roll. People have short attention spans. We love action, violence, and sex. Unless we get sex, we're gonna be entertained by massive amounts of violence and action. Good. But eventually we'll discover this film is a train wreck. It splits us down the middle. Massive arguing ensues. Eventually, the majority of us come out of the closet, and admit it's a stupid piece of crap. Some of us bravely admit to liking it for that very reason. More hardcore DD debates ensue.

Cheesy: I'm dreading this one. Absolutely no respect for the source material. We get a comedy. One that likely sucks. Maybe most moviegoers will find it funny. "Man, I always knew Godzilla was lame!" The filmmakers dropped the ball on this one 'cause they don't have any balls. It gets even worse if they use suit actors and puppets. We pray it tanks at the box office. Then we prepare for a very long wait for the next movie. Expect many death threats. ;) OR the movie is hilarious, we find ourselves laughing, and then right when it ends we're in tears--'cause it's a freaking cheesy movie.

WTF?: Someone decided to make a very strange film. It boggles the mind. Maybe it has a good plot, some good action scenes, OK acting, and impressive special effects. But it doesn't make a big impact because it's weird. It drops from the box office and our hearts. Maybe it gains a cult following. Wait, scratch that. It WILL gain a cult following.

...Or we get a Godzilla musical. :confused::bored::thumbs::hmmm::darklord:

The goal is to get a Serious film or a Serious Action film. That's what we want. If Godzilla is attacking solo, great. Expect it to be character driven. We can't say for sure if it'll go Gojira on us. It could. Probably won't. Win/win if we get a film we can enjoy artistically and emotionally--while feeling like we're riding on a roller coaster, shrieking with joy every second. I'd love to experience that.

[Mecha74]

Like Tom I will watch it either way, but part of me suspects that he may end up fighting another monster. Just as another reason to further distance this film from the previous American one. It sounds like the last thing they want is another GINO, so they may go out of their way to make it as different from that film as possible.

Whether that takes the new film in a good or bad direction remains to be seen.

[Orga777]

Even if we take your list as fact (which is a HUGE concession considering which of my personal collection of kaiju films pass the Girlfriend Test...hint, every movie with Mechagodzilla easily does so

The characters did.... what in Godzilla vs. Mecha-Godzilla again? Oh, yeah, carry a statue that wakes up a waste of space of a kaiju that did nothing but get pounded on by MG... ToMG did it better, but, really, it was standard sci-fi fare. Heck, Katsura was pretty much a rehashing of the female Xian in Monster Zero.

not to mention GMK), that's still 3x more good vs. movies than there are good solo outings. (1.5x if you see G84 as that good.)


The Japanese version of Godzilla 1985 IS really excellent actually... The US version, yeah, not so much. And considering both of the solo films had a better cast of interesting characters than any of the other movies, I think it states something there.

Remember my "don't get your hopes up thread"? The odds of this movie being a great piece of cinema are about the odds of me getting a Nobel Prize. I'll be surprised if it's as good as Iron Man. Are we allowed to just want a movie that's fun?

I have enough Godzilla movies in my room if I wanted to watch mindless fun. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a fun movie every now and then, but we have seen enough "fun" movies the last few years. Are we allowed to not have our intelligence insulted just because it is a Godzilla movie? If Toho can make a handful of good movies (yes, only about 5-6 are actually in the realm of good most are either meh or bad, and there is A LOT more bad than good), then a US Studio should be able to as well.

[BS Digital Q]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as darthzill99 and Ang here. I got into Godzilla as a kid because I loved watching giant monsters fighting and destroying stuff. While I can appreciate some of the other elements now that I'm older, the fact remains that thats probably the only reason ANY of us got into this in the first place. So anyone who wants to deny what has made the series so definable can go ahead and be a snob. Meanwhile, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy every single big Godzilla battle, and dream about it upgraded to glorious CGI with massive epic battles. 'nuff said.

[darthzilla99]

The Japanese version of Godzilla 1985 IS really excellent actually... The US version, yeah, not so much. And considering both of the solo films had a better cast of interesting characters than any of the other movies, I think it states something there.



While I am in the same boat as you in that regard, There is alot of people that consider Return of Godzilla (Yes, this is the japanese version) one of the worst in the Hesei serises and one of it's biggest critisims is that it has the most unintresting cast of human characters and that the main female lead was a robot. Heck, thats part of the reason why it did not make 12 million at the box office like toho expected among other things. Thats also part of the reason why it got a 2.5/5 in the book "The unauthorized biography of the Big G"

So again, while I dissagree with them, there is a good number out there that do think that. But if the movie is solo or another monster, I will still go see it and yes part of the reason why I would like another monster is not just because of a big battle but also you can put character devolepment angles on Godzilla that are not possible in a solo film. Like if this movie is a sequal to GoJira like the rest of movies, then I would love to see Godzilla have memories of watching his father die in agony at the O.D. and how that could be a reason why he hates humanity.

[Orga777]

Not meaning to get off-topic, but I also could not dissagree more and I am quite surprissed you hate that movie, I would have thought that movie would be more your ally. Kong 05, even from a pure film making point of view and not personal ideas, is possibly tencially one of the top 5 monster movies of all time, beating all the Godzilla movies except Gojira and is the second best Kong movie only beaten by the original Kong movie (which also had Kong fighting 3 different dinosaurs and that movie and Gojira are considered the two best giant monster movies of all time). It is also considered the best remake movie of all time by alot of movie critics.

The movie was TOO LONG, Jack Black is more aweful than usual (and was a terrible Jack Denim), the crew men of the ship were worthless to even bother showing on screen, and do I really need to go into that ice skating scene? King Kong '05 may be the second best King Kong movie, but that REALLY isn't saying much. Believe me, I liked it too when I first saw it. Then the more I watched it, the more aweful it got. It isn't even as good as Cloverfield which was itself average.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as darthzill99 and Ang here. I got into Godzilla as a kid because I loved watching giant monsters fighting and destroying stuff. While I can appreciate some of the other elements now that I'm older, the fact remains that thats probably the only reason ANY of us got into this in the first place. So anyone who wants to deny what has made the series so definable can go ahead and be a snob. Meanwhile, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy every single big Godzilla battle, and dream about it upgraded to glorious CGI with massive epic battles. 'nuff said.

I also got into Godzilla due to the fact he is a giant dinosaur that fights things. I enjoy that just as much as anyone else does, but to start a series why not take Goji seriously? I have enough movies of the Godzilla series I can put on if I want to watch a kaiju battle. I want somehting with more substance to start a series though. Especially since after that last attempt they need to try harder.

While I am in the same boat as you in that regard, There is alot of people that consider Return of Godzilla (Yes, this is the japanese version) one of the worst in the Hesei serises and one of it's biggest critisims is that it has the most unintresting cast of human characters and that the main female lead was a robot. Heck, thats part of the reason why it did not make 12 million at the box office like toho expected among other things. Thats also part of the reason why it got a 2.5/5 in the book "The unauthorized biography of the Big G"

That is just odd then. Due to the fact that Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla exists and so does Battle for Earth... XD

So again, while I dissagree with them, there is a good number out there that do think that. But if the movie is solo or another monster, I will still go see it and yes part of the reason why I would like another monster is not just because of a big battle but also you can put character devolepment angles on Godzilla that are not possible in a solo film. Like if this movie is a sequal to GoJira like the rest of movies, then I would love to see Godzilla have memories of watching his father die in agony at the O.D. and how that could be a reason why he hates humanity.

Godzilla doesn't hate humanity in any movie other than GMK though... He is meant to be a force of nature. It would be like saying Tornadoes hate humanity... <.<...

I prefer a solo go around to start the series. If they can show decent competance with just Godzilla, then maybe they can take a shot at making another kaiju correctly.

[BS Digital Q]

I also got into Godzilla due to the fact he is a giant dinosaur that fights things. I enjoy that just as much as anyone else does, but to start a series why not take Goji seriously? I have enough movies of the Godzilla series I can put on if I want to watch a kaiju battle. I want somehting with more substance to start a series though. Especially since after that last attempt they need to try harder.Taking Godzilla 'seriously' (a term I utterly loathe) and incorporating kickass VFX battles with multiple monsters on hundreds of millions of dollars are NOT mutually exclusive you know. And that kickass SPFX and budget is what will separate this from the rest of the crop. Since I was a kid I've wanted to see an epic kaiju confrontation done with the same kind of resources and people as stuff like Jurassic Park. We have our chance here. I don't want to lose it to a solo outing, especially since Godzilla fighting monsters is a defining trait over here, and the lack of a battle was one of the reasons GINO disappointed me as a kid. Godzilla NEEDS to fight another monster. G94 showed it could be done without taking anything away from the character. Its been part of almost the entire series. A solo outing as part of Godzilla's first appearance has been done three times now. I want something new. I want something kick-***. Godzilla versus a giant monster in ILM-level SPFX on a 100 million budget? HELL YES.

'nuff said.

[Raptor]

I also got into Godzilla due to the fact he is a giant dinosaur that fights things. I enjoy that just as much as anyone else does, but to start a series why not take Goji seriously? I have enough movies of the Godzilla series I can put on if I want to watch a kaiju battle. I want somehting with more substance to start a series though. Especially since after that last attempt they need to try harder.Same here. All our '50's weekly feature creatures got done in by the Good Guys in 90 minutes and that was the last we saw of them. Then we got GIGANTIS, THE FIRE MONSTER. Hmmmm, that critter looks mighty familiar. :O
He is meant to be a force of nature. It would be like saying Tornadoes hate humanity... <.<...Just trailer parks. :p Seriously, I think that is an excellent "reason" for his being due to his nuclear origin. I also think a good story could tie in both the past AND contemporary conditions.
I prefer a solo go around to start the series. If they can show decent competance with just Godzilla, then maybe they can take a shot at making another kaiju correctly.Same here. There have been modern successful/enjoyable fantasy franchises. Spiderman comes to mind but we are dealing with an entirely different character. It's going to be an exciting "wait and see" period ahead so let's enjoy the ride! :D

[Raptor]

Since I was a kid I've wanted to see an epic kaiju confrontation done with the same kind of resources and people as stuff like Jurassic Park.Definitely the giant critter standard IMO. :OI don't want to lose it to a solo outing, especially since Godzilla fighting monsters is a defining trait over here, and the lack of a battle was one of the reasons GINO disappointed me as a kid.Actually, the U.S. studios aren't "into" giant monsters as the Japanese are but WE FANS no doubt wish they were, right? ;) Godzilla NEEDS to fight another monster. G94 showed it could be done without taking anything away from the character. Its been part of almost the entire series. A solo outing as part of Godzilla's first appearance has been done three times now. I want something new. I want something kick-***. Godzilla versus a giant monster in ILM-level SPFX on a 100 million budget? HELL YES.

'nuff said.G2012 might be just the thing to get this country into the "There's big giant MONSTERS out there!" circle. So the "biggest" thing we might have is an occasional Big Foot "sighting". The world has gotten to be a much smaller place over the years and Godzilla is MOBILE, for one thing if he doesn't get a new/local origin. Whatever the story might be, HE'S COMING IN 2012! :nod:

[Orga777]

And that kickass SPFX and budget is what will separate this from the rest of the crop. Since I was a kid I've wanted to see an epic kaiju confrontation done with the same kind of resources and people as stuff like Jurassic Park. We have our chance here. I don't want to lose it to a solo outing, especially since Godzilla fighting monsters is a defining trait over here, and the lack of a battle was one of the reasons GINO disappointed me as a kid. Godzilla NEEDS to fight another monster. G94 showed it could be done without taking anything away from the character. Its been part of almost the entire series. A solo outing as part of Godzilla's first appearance has been done three times now. I want something new. I want something kick-***. Godzilla versus a giant monster in ILM-level SPFX on a 100 million budget? HELL YES.

'nuff said.

Then we will get what we got with Transformers 2. You are entitled to your opinion, but, for me, I want something to re-estabilish the character to an audience that thinks Godzilla is a joke. I want that misconception to stop. I always have to point out to my friends that there are good Goji movies despite the bad ones that overrun the series. Of course they don't buy it. Why would they with the stuff that has been thrown around? From the 70s films to GINO.

In my opinion, I think it will take more than a big SPFX budget to do that and would need different feel than a showdown of some sort. I want it to be taken a little more seriously. At least on the first film if they are hoping for a series to grow out of this.

[BS Digital Q]

And with the people I know, you want to know the films that get them to treat Godzilla seriously?

GMK and GFW.

'nuff said. Both have been consitent party favorites among a rather wide variety of people. And the Mechagodzilla movies too, though I've found girls tend to like those more than the guys for some reason.

[Mecha74]

Then we will get what we got with Transformers 2. You are entitled to your opinion, but, for me, I want something to re-estabilish the character to an audience that thinks Godzilla is a joke. I want that misconception to stop. I always have to point out to my friends that there are good Goji movies despite the bad ones that overrun the series. Of course they don't buy it. Why would they with the stuff that has been thrown around? From the 70s films to GINO.

In my opinion, I think it will take more than a big SPFX budget to do that and would need different feel than a showdown of some sort. I want it to be taken a little more seriously. At least on the first film if they are hoping for a series to grow out of this.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you.

The reason I say that is that most other sci-fi fans tend to dismiss kaiju films in general based on their low budget effects when compared to big Hollywood effects extravaganzas.

Sure the new film could change that to a degree, but all that may mean is that new fans may like the 2012 film but still think the rest of the films are all crap.

I have tried to show the naysayers the quality films, the ones considered the cream of the crop.

They still don't care. To them it's a stupid guy in a rubber suit and any seriousness, symbolism, acting or storyline there may be don't mean jack to them. Special effects are all that matter to them, period.

And unfortunately these people comprise the mainstream for the most part and in general decide what succeeds and fails in today's pop culture.

[anguirus55]

Let's be fair, TF2 was only AS bad as it was because of the writer's strike. The FX scenes were actually more successful in some ways than TF1 because Optimus Prime, Megatron, and Starscream all got an extra dose of their classic personalities.

Also, G84 did not have interesting characters in the least. Dr. Hayashida was...adequate, but no real reason is given for why he respects Godzilla, it's just "because he's a scientist." I like elements of G84 but in no way do I think it should be considered a model to emulate.

[Orga777]

And with the people I know, you want to know the films that get them to treat Godzilla seriously?

GMK and GFW.

'nuff said. Both have been consitent party favorites among a rather wide variety of people. And the Mechagodzilla movies too, though I've found girls tend to like those more than the guys for some reason.

I don't know how GFW can be taken seriously by anyone. I see it as a borderline parody myself. Not a very well done one at that either. It took two better Godzilla movies and mashed them together with The Matrix and X-Men and had Youtube Goji Tribute level fights (bad music and all for effect too), all of which made an unholy hodgepodge of terrible.

I will assess to GMK of course. That one was a gem in the Millenium Era.Heck a gem in the whole series.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you.

The reason I say that is that most other sci-fi fans tend to dismiss kaiju films in general based on their low budget effects when compared to big Hollywood effects extravaganzas.

Sure the new film could change that to a degree, but all that may mean is that new fans may like the 2012 film but still think the rest of the films are all crap.

I have tried to show the naysayers the quality films, the ones considered the cream of the crop.

They still don't care. To them it's a stupid guy in a rubber suit and any seriousness, symbolism, acting or storyline there may be don't mean jack to them. Special effects are all that matter to them, period.

And unfortunately these people comprise the mainstream for the most part and in general decide what succeeds and fails in today's pop culture.

Well I find that sad as hell then. Story has always been, and will always be more important than special effects. It feels like ages since we have had an actually GOOD science fiction movie that hasn't been a damn comic book movie (most of which are also garbage). Aren't we tired of "oooh... shiny!" yet? Special Effects were meant to enhance a movie, not CARRY a movie.

Special Effects driven movies are the reasons crap directors like Bay, Emmerich, and Sommers have freaking jobs. People continue to go see their tripe to keep them in business then are fooled by the Special Effects into thinking it is a good movie when it is really unwatchable trash through and through.

It just makes me sad. We will never again get a movie like 2001: A Space Oddyssey, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original, not that horrific remake), Alien, or Gojira. Instead the current movie goer wants Armageddon, The Mummy, and freaking ID4. Does anyone else see the issue here? If people can't take something seriously because the special effects are weak, maybe it is time we put up the tombstone and place Sci-Fi into its grave.

Let's be fair, TF2 was only AS bad as it was because of the writer's strike. The FX scenes were actually more successful in some ways than TF1 because Optimus Prime, Megatron, and Starscream all got an extra dose of their classic personalities.

No. I think it was doomed well before teh Writers Strike. I don't think anything could have saved that movie. XD

[Zigra]

And with the people I know, you want to know the films that get them to treat Godzilla seriously?

GMK and GFW.




I GFW a rather ironic example there, considering it's practically a comedy.

[Mecha74]

It just makes me sad. We will never again get a movie like 2001: A Space Oddyssey, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original, not that horrific remake), Alien, or Gojira. Instead the current movie goer wants Armageddon, The Mummy, and freaking ID4. Does anyone else see the issue here? If people can't take something seriously because the special effects are weak, maybe it is time we put up the tombstone and place Sci-Fi into its grave.

Well, good films are still being made. They're just either foreign and or independent and get little to no exposure it seems.

[Raptor]

I will assess to GMK of course. That one was a gem in the Millenium Era.Heck a gem in the whole series.It did suceed with tweeking Goji's origin which we might see with this new film.
Story has always been, and will always be more important than special effects. It feels like ages since we have had an actually GOOD science fiction movie that hasn't been a damn comic book movie (most of which are also garbage). Aren't we tired of "oooh... shiny!" yet? Special Effects were meant to enhance a movie, not CARRY a movie. I go for the story myself. Why? Because EVERYTHING we're offered now is all shiny. :p You want a break from that? Check out some good amateur efforts that still have "soul" in them.
Special Effects driven movies are the reasons crap directors like Bay, Emmerich, and Sommers have freaking jobs. People continue to go see their tripe to keep them in business then are fooled by the Special Effects into thinking it is a good movie when it is really unwatchable trash through and through.

It just makes me sad. We will never again get a movie like 2001: A Space Oddyssey, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original, not that horrific remake), Alien, or Gojira. Instead the current movie goer wants Armageddon, The Mummy, and freaking ID4. Does anyone else see the issue here? If people can't take something seriously because the special effects are weak, maybe it is time we put up the tombstone and place Sci-Fi into its grave.A JURASSIC PARK or ID-4 once a year isn't a bad thing IMO. Yes, it is great to see things like TRANSFORMERS brought to "life" but I don't want to wear out the wonder and amazement of GOOD SFX that doesn't try to turn every film into another MATRIX just to show off what someone can do with a computer. First it lack of dimension in the renderings. Now it is no soul IMO.

[KingKaiju]

Imo two monsters is always better than one...but having a big emphsasis on Godzilla only wouldn't bother me =)...but the other monster's either gotta be damn interesting/cool or a classic guy that can be done well...i don't want some stupid cheezy monster there just to be there.

[Tomzilla]

I don't know how GFW can be taken seriously by anyone. I see it as a borderline parody myself. Not a very well done one at that either. It took two better Godzilla movies and mashed them together with The Matrix and X-Men and had Youtube Goji Tribute level fights (bad music and all for effect too), all of which made an unholy hodgepodge of terrible.

Very true.

However, many people love this kind of entertainment. Ever seen Godzilla: Final Wars in a theater with over 600 people? I have. And guess what? It was fun. Yes, the movie kills your brain cells (that should tell you something, since I've watched Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla dozens of times). But everyone in that theater laughed, cheered, and celebrated what makes Godzilla fun.

And that's okay. People can love Godzilla: Final Wars all they want. Occasionally, it is entertaining. But honestly, I'd rather focus on better kaiju films. GMK, The Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, Godzilla vs. Destoroyah, Mothra vs. Godzilla '64, and of course--Gojira. Giant monster films like the '90s Gamera Trilogy, Daimajin, Cloverfield, and Gamera: The Brave more than qualify. These are the films the new Godzilla movie should incorporate (be it story, characters, atmosphere, passion, etc...) and honor.

The reason is clear to any Godzilla fan. Godzilla is such a damn good character, you can find him in any kind of film. Godzilla films can make you laugh, cry, cheer, and ponder real life issues. Maybe this new film will help share that insight to the mainstream public.

If the filmmakers want something like GFW, I'll feel letdown. But I'll still hope they succeed where Kitamura failed. I also know I'll have fun come opening day. We'd have plenty of times to argue about whether or not it was worth it.

I will assess to GMK of course. That one was a gem in the Millenium Era.Heck a gem in the whole series.

Very true.

It just makes me sad. We will never again get a movie like 2001: A Space Oddyssey, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original, not that horrific remake), Alien, or Gojira. Instead the current movie goer wants Armageddon, The Mummy, and freaking ID4.

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, The Dark Knight, Iron Man, Up, Jurassic Park, Avatar---these films have a large following, received favorable reviews, and have made bank at the Box Office. Why? Because moviegoers went to see these movies and loved what they went to watch. So the current moviegoer actually likes good films, thank you very much!

Why are you sad? We're still getting incredible movies. They're not the ones we grew up watching. But these are films the next generation is growing up and currently enjoying. That's the way it'll always be. Sure, we'll get bad movies that the non-Godzilla fans (aka everyone else) will love for some strange reason. Big deal. You're not being forced to watch 'em.

So let the mainstream have their brainless films. The rest of us will keep watching the films we love (which will always be there waiting for us), welcome new ones to the fold, and laugh at Clint's future rants on the films we don't need or want. :darklord:

[Orga777]

However, many people love this kind of entertainment. Ever seen Godzilla: Final Wars in a theater with over 600 people? I have. And guess what? It was fun. Yes, the movie kills your brain cells (that should tell you something, since I've watched Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla dozens of times). But everyone in that theater laughed, cheered, and celebrated what makes Godzilla fun.

To me it would be like cheering Godzilla vs. Megalon...

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, The Dark Knight, Iron Man, Up, Jurassic Park, Avatar---these films have a large following, received favorable reviews, and have made bank at the Box Office. Why? Because moviegoers went to see these movies and loved what they went to watch. So the current moviegoer actually likes good films, thank you very much!

LotR is not sci-fi and has a backing as a respected book series. I mentioned in my post that the only time we get a good sci-fi movie these days is usually a comic book movie like TDK and Iron Man, but then add in the rest of the genres attempts of comic book movies, and, really, there are at least two horrible ones for every good one. Jurassic Park is also what I was thinking of when I said "it felt like ages since the last good sci-fi movie." That was 17 freaking years ago. I was five years old when that movie came out.

And PLEASE don't get me started on Avatar... I will just say I was happy it didn't win anything but technical awards at the Academy Awards this year.

Why are you sad? We're still getting incredible movies. They're not the ones we grew up watching. But these are films the next generation is growing up and currently enjoying. That's the way it'll always be. Sure, we'll get bad movies that the non-Godzilla fans (aka everyone else) will love for some strange reason. Big deal. You're not being forced to watch 'em.

I know that I am not forced to watch them. But, is it wrong to hope for something that isn't bile puked up by some Hollywood Producer to make a quick buck on the name recognition?

So let the mainstream have their brainless films. The rest of us will keep watching the films we love (which will always be there waiting for us), welcome new ones to the fold, and laugh at Clint's future rants on the films we don't need or want. :darklord:

Well, can't argue with that. XD

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

Then we will get what we got with Transformers 2. You are entitled to your opinion, but, for me, I want something to re-estabilish the character to an audience that thinks Godzilla is a joke. I want that misconception to stop. I always have to point out to my friends that there are good Goji movies despite the bad ones that overrun the series. Of course they don't buy it. Why would they with the stuff that has been thrown around? From the 70s films to GINO.
You sound like someone who is mad because he got his lunch-money stolen for wearing a Godzilla shirt. Seriously. Godzillas reputation is B-movie drive-in, atomic metaphor good times. That is his established niche. It's unavoidable. There's deffinently content to enjoy beyond that, but being "BAWH, this film featuring aliens, radioative dinosaurs and robots isn't a proper commentary on post-911 culture" effectively cuts you off from 97% of the GENRE. When was the last time you watched a Godzilla movie to have FUN that wasn't the holy 6some of Gojira/GvsM/G85/GvsB/GvsD/GMK? I have trouble believing you to be an actual FAN if those are the only films you like, it's like someone proclaims themselves to be a huge Batman fan because they saw TDK, but scoffs at comic books.

[BS Digital Q]

You sound like someone who is mad because he got his lunch-money stolen for wearing a Godzilla shirt. Seriously. Godzillas reputation is B-movie drive-in, atomic metaphor good times. That is his established niche. It's unavoidable. There's deffinently content to enjoy beyond that, but being "BAWH, this film featuring aliens, radioative dinosaurs and robots isn't a proper commentary on post-911 culture" effectively cuts you off from 97% of the GENRE. When was the last time you watched a Godzilla movie to have FUN that wasn't the holy 6some of Gojira/GvsM/G85/GvsB/GvsD/GMK? I have trouble believing you to be an actual FAN if those are the only films you like, it's like someone proclaims themselves to be a huge Batman fan because they saw TDK, but scoffs at comic books.*hallelujah chorus*

Ladies and gentlemen. The voice of reason.

[Goji Son]

It just makes me sad. We will never again get a movie like 2001: A Space Oddyssey, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original, not that horrific remake), Alien, or Gojira. Instead the current movie goer wants Armageddon, The Mummy, and freaking ID4. Does anyone else see the issue here? If people can't take something seriously because the special effects are weak, maybe it is time we put up the tombstone and place Sci-Fi into its grave.


There are many great, thought provoking sci fi films made within the last 10 years AI, Minority Report, Primer, Moon, District 9, Sunshine, and The Fountain just to name a few. These films are just as good, if not better, than the ones that you have listed and definitely have much more intellectual and timely topics to chew on. There is plenty of great stuff out there, you just have to look for it. Do you really think all of he sci fi films inthe 50s through the 60s were of the same caliber as 2001 or Alien? Hell no, most of them were schlocky B-movie camp that was usually in the hands of Roger Corman and made purely for the purposes of money and entertainment. The reason why the films you've listed are so critically acclaimed is because they were a rarity in their time and genre.

[Tomzilla]

To me it would be like cheering Godzilla vs. Megalon...

If you're watching this movie with hundreds of other people cheering and laughing at the top of their lungs, I'd have no reason not to do the same. It's called having fun.

LotR is not sci-fi and has a backing as a respected book series.

True, it's not Sci-Fi. It does, however, prove the average moviegoer has good taste. Almost everyone I know has seen these movies and absolutely loves 'em! It's success wasn't just because of its fans. Mainstream played a huge role.

I mentioned in my post that the only time we get a good sci-fi movie these days is usually a comic book movie like TDK and Iron Man, but then add in the rest of the genres attempts of comic book movies, and, really, there are at least two horrible ones for every good one.

See the bold? The same applies to Godzilla films, friend. That doesn't stop us from loving them.

Jurassic Park is also what I was thinking of when I said "it felt like ages since the last good sci-fi movie." That was 17 freaking years ago. I was five years old when that movie came out.

And when Gojira debuted, you weren't even born. That didn't stop you from using it as an example.

And PLEASE don't get me started on Avatar... I will just say I was happy it didn't win anything but technical awards at the Academy Awards this year.

Love it or hate it, it has a strong fan following, made a huge impression on the mainstream, and is a testament to James Cameron's passion. That last part is important, especially for the new Godzilla movie.

I know that I am not forced to watch them. But, is it wrong to hope for something that isn't bile puked up by some Hollywood Producer to make a quick buck on the name recognition?

No. But it isn't wrong to actually like those bile puked up movies either. Way I see it, we can either sit here and complain about people who share different taste than our own and wonder on earth they want to spend money on this garbage or concentrate on what we like and how we can support similar movies.

I'm not gonna crucify ya for being worried. Keep in mind, we all want this film to kick ***. We want it to be a good movie. None of us wants it to suck. Obviously, we're all fans here, and we have invested our emotions long before it was confirmed.


There are many great, thought provoking sci fi films made within the last 10 years AI, Minority Report, Primer, Moon, District 9, Sunshine, and The Fountain just to name a few.

Very good examples here.

The reason why the films you've listed are so critically acclaimed is because they were a rarity in their time and genre.

Indeed. And good Sci-Fi films still are a rarity. They always have been and always will be. While it has a large following, it still requires massive amounts of talent, passion, and time to create a new Sci-Fi gem. Of all the genres, I'd say the best way to really make a memorable Sci-Fi movie is to be as original and honest as possible.

[chillening]

There are many great, thought provoking sci fi films made within the last 10 years AI, Minority Report, Primer, Moon, District 9, Sunshine, and The Fountain just to name a few. These films are just as good, if not better, than the ones that you have listed and definitely have much more intellectual and timely topics to chew on.

I can't say that I really like any of those movies apart from Moon. District 9 was a live action video game. Sunshine had not one ounce of originality in it. Primer was film school wankery. AI and Minority Report...meh, Spielberg. Didn't see The Fountain, as I dislike Darron Arronofsky's pretentiousness.

There really haven't been many good sci-fi movies this past decade. Pitch Black and 28 Days Later were good. Cloverfield and Children of Men were okay. Ghosts of Mars was bad but enjoyable. Aside from those, I think sci-fi is pretty much dead.

[Goji Son]

I can't say that I really like any of those movies apart from Moon. District 9 was a live action video game.
Really? I thought the action was great and the special effects were spectacular given the budget and it all resonated with me more because the film had characters you actually cared about. I wasn't just watching the film and watching the spectacle, I was actually worried about whether or not Chris was going to get back to his son.
Sunshine had not one ounce of originality in it.
This is such a broad, generalized criticism that it could apply to any film. Granted, the third act is kind of a problem but that is probably the most original thing about it, given its genre. Plus, the basic plot of rejuvenating the sun is quite original and I don't think there is another film that deals with this topic.
Primer was film school wankery.
It was made with a $16,000 budget. The acting is kind of shady at times but it is the most detailed and accurate representation of the time travel ever put on screen.
AI and Minority Report...meh, Spielberg.
I don't see how this is a criticism. Spielberg is still one of the greatest directors working today and sci fi is one of his staple genres. Many people have a problem with AI but I find it to be one of his best works. Good look at what it really means to be human and how that always isn't a good thing. Minority Report has some great action and also takes the time to dabble with the idea of whether or not a individual can control their destiny.
Didn't see The Fountain, as I dislike Darron Arronofsky's pretentiousness.
Yeah, I kind of have a problem with that 'p' word since no film could ever believe that it deserves praise because its not a sentient being so, again, this criticism is unoriginal and doesn't apply. I have also never read or seen Arronofsky ever claim that he deserves an Oscar or any other award for his work.

There really haven't been many good sci-fi movies this past decade.
I'm don't understand what is wrong with the films I chose. I think you might be putting the classics on a pedestal that no other modern film could ever reach no matter how well made or thought provoking.

Pitch Black and 28 Days Later were good. Cloverfield and Children of Men were okay. Ghosts of Mars was bad but enjoyable.
Forgot about Children of Men! A very interesting dystopian film that shows has some brutal scenes but still keeps a bittersweet hopefulness intact. One of my favorites in the genre.

Aside from those, I think sci-fi is pretty much dead.
What a completely hopeless statement. I think you have a romanticized view of the genre and are unable to recognize anything that has been made within the last decade.

[Orga777]

You sound like someone who is mad because he got his lunch-money stolen for wearing a Godzilla shirt. Seriously. Godzillas reputation is B-movie drive-in, atomic metaphor good times. That is his established niche. It's unavoidable. There's deffinently content to enjoy beyond that, but being "BAWH, this film featuring aliens, radioative dinosaurs and robots isn't a proper commentary on post-911 culture" effectively cuts you off from 97% of the GENRE. When was the last time you watched a Godzilla movie to have FUN that wasn't the holy 6some of Gojira/GvsM/G85/GvsB/GvsD/GMK? I have trouble believing you to be an actual FAN if those are the only films you like, it's like someone proclaims themselves to be a huge Batman fan because they saw TDK, but scoffs at comic books.

Please. I enjoy all my Godzilla films for the most part. If I didn't I wouldn't have 27 of 28 movies (I WILL eventually find a decent copy of G'85...) The difference? I don't fool myself into thinking what I am watching is GOOD. Besides that "Holy 6dome" as you put it, most of the other films are either garbage or sub-par fair. I still enjoy the KKvs.G, G2K, even Godzilla vs. Gigan. They are fun to watch, BUT, if that is what I want, I will put that into my DVD player and enjoy it. I am tired of going "oh well, that is the genre" and reward trash filmmaking with a $10 movie ticket purchase just because I am a fan. You can make good action movies and you can make a good Godzilla movie. If freaking Toho can do it with a miniscule budget every once in a while, Hollowood should be able to with its massive budgets.

True, it's not Sci-Fi. It does, however, prove the average moviegoer has good taste. Almost everyone I know has seen these movies and absolutely loves 'em! It's success wasn't just because of its fans. Mainstream played a huge role.

It helps to have name recognition in such a series though. Especially since it was considered "unfilmable' for such a long time. But that same average moviegoer made Transformers a money maker, so... Not so sure what to think here. XD


See the bold? The same applies to Godzilla films, friend. That doesn't stop us from loving them.


I am the FIRST person to admit that.


And when Gojira debuted, you weren't even born. That didn't stop you from using it as an example.


That isn't the point though. I may not have been born, but I respect quaility film making when I see it. I wasn't alive for Citizen Kane either. Doesn't stop me from saying it is the best movie I ever seen.


Love it or hate it, it has a strong fan following, made a huge impression on the mainstream, and is a testament to James Cameron's passion. That last part is important, especially for the new Godzilla movie.


Having a standard Godzilla movie with better SPFX isn't going to change anyones opinion on it at all. That is how I see it anyway.


I'm not gonna crucify ya for being worried. Keep in mind, we all want this film to kick ***. We want it to be a good movie. None of us wants it to suck. Obviously, we're all fans here, and we have invested our emotions long before it was confirmed.


That is all I really want. I just want something good to come out of this. Hollywood track records doesn't fill me with hope, and everyone just wanting the status quo isn't helping. XD

What is wrong with wanting something that will blow my mind rather than something to melt it. :laugh:

[EternalMothra]

Personally, I'd rather have them make this a solo Godzilla movie.

[KingKaiju]

Speaking of good movies, American Psycho= EPIC!!! Especially the scene you have in your sig Goji Son hahahaha "Hey Paul!!" ahahahah

[zilla90]

As much as it is true that this is another chance to introduce Godzilla to American audiences, I don't think this Movie should be a solo monster film. Sure on paper in might be better but there are some things you have to consider. Americans just got a taste of a really good sci-fi monster movie with only one monster. We all remember Cloverfield. Also most everybody in America already knows about Godzilla They just see it as B-movie, low-budget, monster fighting, crap. I say we give them exactly what they know Godzilla as, monsters duking it out. I'm sure that if we introduce other Toho monsters in this light as well It will drastically increase the fanbase of Godzlla. Of course this is still dependent on whether or not Hollywood screws it all up or not.

[Angiru-San]

Well here's another question to help us get back on topic (thanks to those above who did) - IF they include another classic Toho monster for Godzilla to battle, which one should it be? And sould it be another mutant... or an alien... or a mecha?

My first and favorite choice would have to be King Ghidorah. The thought of a gigantic, terrifying cgi Ghidorah from hell just tickles every ounce of my being... that would be amazing. Honestly, it'd be really cool to have a Godzilla vs RODAN film - something thats never been done, and it would be with a huge budget!

It all is just so trivial until we figure out a few more key elements... if the plot is "Mankind vs their Mistakes", then it should be just that... Godzilla vs Humanity - a survival story. If they go for the "Godzilla as an existing legend" rout, which I think would be awesome (as in, he's been around since the fifties) then he should absolutely have an opponent to face off against. Perhaps thats why he returns... to ward off the planet destroying GHIDORAH.

I'd rather them stay away from Mechas, though. I feel like that storyline and that type of kaiju was handled very well in the Kiryu films - and it isn't something that needs to be done again so soon. Kiryu is just about the coolest MechaGodzilla design you could ask for - and the storyline was good enough to satisfy as well. I'd much rather watch Godzilla rise again to fight off some alien invader such as Ghidorah or Gigan.

Then again, an all out - big budget remake of either King Kong vs Godzilla or Mothra vs Godzilla would be amazing - especially as a sequel to this first movie (G2012)...

Oh, the possibilities!!!

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

I'd rather see King Ghidorah be used in a (hypothetical) sequel. I don't think KG as an opponent would make a good re-introduction to Godzilla because he's such a show stealer; people will remember that magnificent golden *******, as opposed to the one whose name is in the title.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kamacuras or Espegia in some cannon-fodder type role. They're not exactly bursting with personality or character that can be ruined, plus it gives Godzilla something to fight and demonstrate that side of the character (as opposed to having him brutalize a more popular monster for the sake of doing so; here's looking at you GvsMGII!).

[KaijuKing]

As much as I love the idea of seeing Ghidorah in this movie, I have to agree that he'd be better as sequel material. But that still leaves the question of who the opponent in the first film should be. I've seen several people mention Anguirus, but I don't particularly like that idea.

See, we can safely assume that His Majesty is going to be portrayed in this movie as the Radioactive Wrath of God. He will be a juggernaut, able to take Humanity's best shot without a change of expression. So putting him in the ring with a fairly limited, tooth-and-claw monster like Anguirus seems...unsporting. You know the poor pincushion doesn't have a prayer. So the enemy needs to be a monster that can convincingly stand up to Godzilla.

Rodan seems like a decent choice, because at least he has the advantage where mobility is concerned. He can move around and attack from different angles, or easily dodge Godzilla's counterattacks. He doesn't have to just stand there and take it like Anguirus would. I would also be open to seeing the return of Fire Rodan, able to shoot back and hold his own from a distance. He'd have to do plenty of melee fighting too, of course, but at least the beams give him another option.

And then the sequel would introduce a decidedly larger threat...(cue opening notes of Ghidrah, The Three-Headed Monster's Main Title (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ygq7gIYZ0))

[zilla90]

when choosing a monster you have to think about which monster could you use as if it was just appearing for the first time, putting it in the same light as Godzilla while still keeping Godzilla the focus. One article (I lost track of so i dont have a reference) mentioned Hedorah in the movie. I'm particularly meh to the idea, but at the same time Hedorah is a flexible enough character to be used in any movie that is to represent Man's destroying of the earth. It (once again) would be a creature created from man's relentless experimentation of the planet against a creature created from man's negligent polluting of the world around him. These are two key points that show some of man's biggest flaws. I would also like to see Toho have another stab at an enviromental monster film.

[Orga777]

when choosing a monster you have to think about which monster could you use as if it was just appearing for the first time, putting it in the same light as Godzilla while still keeping Godzilla the focus. One article (I lost track of so i dont have a reference) mentioned Hedorah in the movie. I'm particularly meh to the idea, but at the same time Hedorah is a flexible enough character to be used in any movie that is to represent Man's destroying of the earth. It (once again) would be a creature created from man's relentless experimentation of the planet against a creature created from man's negligent polluting of the world around him. These are two key points that show some of man's biggest flaws. I would also like to see Toho have another stab at an enviromental monster film.

Please, no Hedorah..... ever again.....

[Zardac the Great]

I would riot.

A small, one person riot perhaps, but still a riot.

No smog monsters. Ever. For any reason.

[KaijuKing]

I've always liked Hedorah. He's a fairly interesting monster, both in design and powers. But his debut film was a suitable showcase for him, and he doesn't really need to make another appearance.

[Scorpion13mk2]

Why do people want to see Ghidorah again? What the 8 thousand other appearances he's had werent enough? The fact that the Millennium series was a nonstop series of rehashed stuff weve seen a thousand times wasnt enough?

If there has to be a monster, we need something different. I mean real different, not a rip-off of another monster, which Megaguirus was of Battra and Mothra, but a real one we havent seen the likes of before. If theyre going CGI, why not a giant snake or worm monster? A humanoid monster? A non-humanoid robot? Giant insects? Even a blob or slime monster would be nice, but not another rehash.

And this doesnt change the fact that I think the idea of having another monster in the movie is stupid. Godzilla should be enough for a single movie.

[Zardac the Great]

Ghidorah would not be a good choice for this movie. Mothra could be, but EM would riot over her getting blown up again.

And I'd riot if they went back over the whole "Godzilla kills the adult, but then the babies beat him" thing again.

I agree that if Godzilla fights a monster, let's have him fight a new one.

[anguirus55]

Complaining about King Ghidorah being in a Godzilla movie is like complaining about the Joker being in a Batman movie.

[Zardac the Great]

I'm not complaining about Ghidorah being in a Godzilla movie. If Ghidorah is there, I'll be perfectly happy.

But Ghidorah should not be in the first movie, much as the Joker was not in Batman Begins.

Ghidorah in a sequal would be fine. Even preferable. Godzilla doesn't need Ghidorah, per se, but Ghidorah is much like the Joker in his relationship with Godzilla.

But Ghidorah, done right, would overshadow Godzilla. All I'm saying is that Godzilla needs to be established as the King of the Monsters before we bring in one of his few real competitors to the throne.

[anguirus55]

^ That's fair, however I think Mothra has a much stronger independent identity than King Ghidorah and so if either of the two of them have no business being in an origin story, it's really her.

King Ghidorah is constantly being redefined--the only commonality is that he is the enemy of Godzilla. So I would personally be fine with it, as he doesn't require a whole plot to be written around him.

[Da_Jinx]

I'm not complaining about Ghidorah being in a Godzilla movie. If Ghidorah is there, I'll be perfectly happy.

But Ghidorah should not be in the first movie, much as the Joker was not in Batman Begins.

Ghidorah in a sequal would be fine. Even preferable. Godzilla doesn't need Ghidorah, per se, but Ghidorah is much like the Joker in his relationship with Godzilla.

But Ghidorah, done right, would overshadow Godzilla. All I'm saying is that Godzilla needs to be established as the King of the Monsters before we bring in one of his few real competitors to the throne.

I agree 100%! King Ghidorah is Godzilla's arch nemesis (has the "OH CRAP!!!" factor for a villain) like Joker is to Batman, Lex Luthor to Superman, Green Goblin to Spiderman and etc. Build the foundation for Godzilla then bring in KG, cause villain sometimes overshadow the lead hero and gets the most interest and it should be for the sequel.

Besides, can you imagine KG with Hollywood special effects?!?

[Zardac the Great]

^ That's fair, however I think Mothra has a much stronger independent identity than King Ghidorah and so if either of the two of them have no business being in an origin story, it's really her.



Makes sense. I forgot for a minute that she'd been brought into the Godzilla universe, so to speak, from her own. I was thinking only of power levels.

ie, above kaiju like Anguirus, but below Godzilla himself.

[BS Digital Q]

Zardac is spot on about Ghidorah. While I would immensely prefer a monster battle in the movie, I would rather it be something that doesn't overshadow Godzilla's presence. A new monster would be nice (a giant snake or worm would be great), but Angurius would be my choice if they got the rights to another monster.

[Tomzilla]

While we don't necessarily need King Ghidorah or Mothra in the first film, it doesn't mean they shouldn't play a role. Subtle messages of them doing things in the background would be nice. Perhaps astronomers have picked up an ominous signal from space--a mysterious warning of some kind. Perhaps people cured of nasty illnesses report being healed by a moth or being visited by one in an out of body experience.

They're more like nods to the fans. But if the film does well, they could benefit future plots.

[Scorpion13mk2]

I dont want Mothra, if she does eventually get revamped, to be a magical do-gooder. Id much rather have her as a vengeful god, like in the original movie.

[BS Digital Q]

I've imagined that, if I was gonna do a Godzilla film with Mothra in it, to revamp her into a kind of death goddess, paralleling how black butterflies are represented in current Japanese folklore.

[Orga777]

I've imagined that, if I was gonna do a Godzilla film with Mothra in it, to revamp her into a kind of death goddess, paralleling how black butterflies are represented in current Japanese folklore.

....I favor anything that has Evil Mothra. XD

Black butterfly with blood red glowing eyes, razor sharp, but elegant wings, and a bad attitude to go with the look.

[BS Digital Q]

Well, not so much evil as simply amoral.


*watches EM froth with rage*

[Orga777]

Well, not so much evil as simply amoral.

But we already got that with Battra.... If we can get a good Ghidorah, we can get an Evil Mothra I say. XD

*watches EM froth with rage*

Yeah, I remember arguing with him about Evil Mothra a few years ago since I liked the idea back then too. :laugh:

[BS Digital Q]

But we already got that with Battra...Not quite. Battra, while not *villainous,* is most certainly antagonistic toward humanity. I'm imagining a Mothra who is neither Care Bear Rainbow Power Magic Goody Two-Shoes, nor Goth Dark Evil. She simply exists as a kind of supernatural force of nature, a being who presides over the dead and helps them move on into the next life. She's not evil, but she's not exactly concerned about humanity either.

[Orga777]

Not quite. Battra, while not *villainous,* is most certainly antagonistic toward humanity. I'm imagining a Mothra who is neither Care Bear Rainbow Power Magic Goody Two-Shoes, nor Goth Dark Evil. She simply exists as a kind of supernatural force of nature, a being who presides over the dead and helps them move on into the next life. She's not evil, but she's not exactly concerned about humanity either.

Ehh... I see what you are saying. It would be an interesting change of pace I admit... I kinda like the idea of Mothra ferrying the dead.

Still like the idea of Evil Mothra more though. XD

[Seer235]

Did somebody say...Evil Mothra?

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7486/mothraheiseievil.jpg

[Scorpion13mk2]

When I was talking about a different kind of Mothra, I meant Mothra, as a change of pace, should be more like Bokrug in The Doom That Came To Sarnath.

Evil? No. Not in the traditional sense, but very alien and strange and playing by its own rules. Much more in line with a vengeful god of an ancient culture than evil.

[PyrasTerran]

The way I see it:

The best Godzilla movie was the first, and the only monster in that movie was Godzilla.

If Legendary can't get the titular character down well enough to be able support his own solo film then this reboot may not be worth the trouble.

[Scorpion13mk2]

The way I see it:

The best Godzilla movie was the first, and the only monster in that movie was Godzilla.

If Legendary can't get the titular character down well enough to be able support his own solo film then this reboot may not be worth the trouble.

THANK YOU!!

Thats what Ive been trying to say!

[Orga777]

The way I see it:

The best Godzilla movie was the first, and the only monster in that movie was Godzilla.

If Legendary can't get the titular character down well enough to be able support his own solo film then this reboot may not be worth the trouble.

At least Pyras sees it my way too. XD

[Zardac the Great]

I'm still laughing over the mustachioed Mothra.

I can just see her kidnapping some innocent kaiju and being stopped by a cheesy good kaiju in tights.

:darklord:


You know, I just might like Mothra after all...

[anguirus55]

The way I see it:

The best Godzilla movie was the first, and the only monster in that movie was Godzilla.

If Legendary can't get the titular character down well enough to be able support his own solo film then this reboot may not be worth the trouble.

Your opinion is your opinion, but I disagree with your analysis.

Godzilla is the greatest Godzilla movie, but it holds that position for two reasons. 1) It's not really a Godzilla movie at all, it is a haunting product of a unique time, place, and culture. 2) Godzilla has no personality whatsoever, he is an impersonal force of destruction. When humanity battles him, they are battling war itself.

Hollywood cannot mimic 1). Even if they made a slavish period piece like King Kong, they would do it wrong.

I don't want them to mimic number 2). Godzilla's personality is extremely basic, but certain constants have a lineage dating back to King Kong vs. Godzilla (an eagerness for battle, persistence, a bad temper, and a sort of charming cantankerousness...some degree of these traits can be read into every Godzilla from Megalon to Biollante, except for the first two Godzilla movies when we are supposed to unreservedly root for the humans).

As I believe I've stated before, Godzilla's personality is easier to express through conflict with a peer.

It is also worth noting that in the history of film, four screenplays have reached preproduction on a solo Godzilla film. 1954, Godzilla 3D in 1983, 1984, and 1998.

In three of those scripts, Godzilla dies. In the fourth, he is not killed but he is dealt an utter defeat...essentially, death-with-a-sequel hook.

I think that killing Godzilla in a neo-Hollywood revival is a mistake because one of the major differences between Godzilla and a typical Hollywood monster is that humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla. A solo movie that doesn't kill or dump Godzilla is certainly possible. It's just unprecedented.

[Orga777]

I think that killing Godzilla in a neo-Hollywood revival is a mistake because one of the major differences between Godzilla and a typical Hollywood monster is that humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla. A solo movie that doesn't kill or dump Godzilla is certainly possible. It's just unprecedented.

Who the hell said they had to kill Godzilla? :eyebrow:

[anguirus55]

You have to read the whole post, Orga.

[Orga777]

You have to read the whole post, Orga.

Why would it be unprecidented having Godzilla alive at the end with the fact humanity will have to live with Goji? I just don't get what you are trying to say since it can easily be done if the people in charge of the movie actually care about the source material.

[BS Digital Q]

Um, I wouldn't even trust hardcore fans to do that right Orga. Honestly, I'd say what you're saying doesn't make any sense here.

[Orga777]

Um, I wouldn't even trust hardcore fans to do that right Orga. Honestly, I'd say what you're saying doesn't make any sense here.

Oh come on now. If people care enough to do it, it can be done right. It isn't that hard to understand at all. Whether it is done right or not depends on who is behind it all, and whether they care more about the story being told rather than the amount of money they are making. Simple as that.

[darthzilla99]

Oh come on now. If people care enough to do it, it can be done right. It isn't that hard to understand at all. Whether it is done right or not depends on who is behind it all, and whether they care more about the story being told rather than the amount of money they are making. Simple as that.

And Yet you hate PJ's King Kong who PJ is the biggest King Kong fan in the world and was trying very hard to be respectful to the source material and was his inspireation movie. He even very openly admits that his King Kong is not even close to being as good as the original.

[BS Digital Q]

Oh come on now. If people care enough to do it, it can be done right.You can have all the heart in the world, but you can still make crap.

Remember that Dungeons & Dragons movie? The first one anyway? That was done by a hardcore fan. Who literally, almost by himself, got a studio to agree to have him make that movie. He probably cared more about that than anyone in his position could have.

Guess what? The film was still crap.

It isn't that hard to understand at all. Whether it is done right or not depends on who is behind it all, and whether they care more about the story being told rather than the amount of money they are making. Simple as that.Fans can still make crap. Bottom line. Being as faithful to the source material as possible is by no means a good thing. I would rather see a great Godzilla movie that is only partly faithful to the character, than an awful Godzilla movie that is completely faithful.

Anyway, if Godzilla is going to continue forward at the end of the movie, there must be a reason why. Simply having him come in, trash a city, and pretty much wade through everything that gets thrown at him is fine. But that would make for an unsatisfying ending to the film if Godzilla survives and is not defeated. What was the point of the entire movie? It doesn't really end anything. The movie needs to end with some manner of resolution to the central conflict. Ergo, in a solo film Godzilla must be dealt with in some fashion that ends his threat, i.e., defeats him. In a film with another monster, Godzilla can be a threat still, or a perceived one like in the 94 script, but can share it with the other monster, who can become the central threat which Godzilla defeats. This adds another possible resolution in that humanity can now choose to tolerate his existence, figuring that one giant monster who is potentially guarunteed to end the threat of another giant monster or worse threat, is better than killing/defeating the giant monster, and so leaving them vulnerable to aforementioned threat.

This is pretty basic stuff people. Godzilla films pretty much follow these conventions in some form or another. Deviating would make for a crap film, or at least a bad Godzilla film.

[Orga777]

You can have all the heart in the world, but you can still make crap.

Remember that Dungeons & Dragons movie? The first one anyway? That was done by a hardcore fan. Who literally, almost by himself, got a studio to agree to have him make that movie. He probably cared more about that than anyone in his position could have.

Guess what? The film was still crap.

Well, you definitely got me there... DX
Although, you can love something all you want, you STILL have to have talent or it will be awful. After all, look at 95% of most fanfiction. You can't only just be a fan, you need to have the right people in there as well.


As for your analysis, I see where you are coming from, I just don't think it is impossible to pull it off. I really don't think another kaiju is necessary for the first film, and there are plenty of ways to beat Godzilla that doesn't involve him dieing. I want something different out of this. I want this to be a good movie, not just a good Godzilla movie. My expectations may be too high, but, hey, never said I wasn't putting them too high. After that last disgraceful attempt, I expect more for a second chance at such an iconic character.

[anguirus55]

Why would it be unprecidented having Godzilla alive at the end with the fact humanity will have to live with Goji?

I don't know why it WOULD be, but the fact remains that it IS. I was making a factual statement about the past. Every solo Godzilla movie made or even written to date has humanity smack Godzilla at the end.

I want this to be a good movie, not just a good Godzilla movie.

We all do, Orga. For my part I'm not counting on it, but of course I want one.

I categorically disagree that a good reinvention of Godzilla must leave out another monster. I suspect that writing a script that is quality and pays homage to Godzilla's character would be easier with another monster in the mix. But this project could go in almost any direction at this point so far as we know.

[Tomzilla]

Did somebody say...Evil Mothra?

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7486/mothraheiseievil.jpg


This is still one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Anyway, if we going to discuss our thoughts on an Evil Mothra, then someone should create a thread about it. I'm sure it'd be a very interesting discussion.

My opinion on a solo outing remains the same. I really wouldn't mind. It'd just leave more room for the humans and Godzilla to develop. But if Godzilla fights a new kaiju, I'd be very pleased. There are so many ways to make a good Godzilla movie. Deciding on whether or not Hollywood is even capable of making one is an enormous waste of time. Hollywood has churned out classics and blockbusters alike. So has Toho. So it's borderline paranoia to doubt or praise 'em here. We're that in the dark about this upcoming film.

Is it remotely possible for us to get another Gojira? Yes. There will always be a chance for another great Godzilla film. Always. But will we? I don't know. We don't have a clue. People are certainly welcome to calculate the odds. I'm sure both sides have and/or will make great points.

As for me? I couldn't be happier. These discussions, arguments, rumors, ideas, all of it reminds me of what went down many years ago. Looking back, I enjoyed those days immensely. We're very passionate fans. We love Godzilla. These movies are like our Bibles. I know we hate GINO, but does anyone remember just how excited we were before it came out?

Whether or not this movie marks Godzilla's second coming, I say enjoy all this while it lasts! Because who knows? This movie could bring Godzilla millions of new fans. And when these new fans join our ranks, guess what? We'll have the luxury of saying we discovered the awesomeness that is Godzilla first. :cool:

[Zardac the Great]

I gotta say, Ang is making some REALLY good points here...

[PyrasTerran]

Godzilla is the greatest Godzilla movie, but it holds that position for two reasons. 1) It's not really a Godzilla movie at all,

Gojira is not a Godzilla movie at all? I don't understand this..

it is a haunting product of a unique time, place, and culture.

Yes it is.. I'm not sure why this is a problem.

2) Godzilla has no personality whatsoever, he is an impersonal force of destruction. When humanity battles him, they are battling war itself.

This is exactly what Godzilla is about, to me. I don't see how this makes it NOT a Godzilla film, it's like saying the sympathy of Frankenstein's monster refrains the film from being a Frankenstein movie.

Hollywood cannot mimic 1). Even if they made a slavish period piece like King Kong, they would do it wrong.[quote]

They seemed to do it pretty well in The Last Samurai.

[quote]I don't want them to mimic number 2). Godzilla's personality is extremely basic, but certain constants have a lineage dating back to King Kong vs. Godzilla (an eagerness for battle, persistence, a bad temper, and a sort of charming cantankerousness...some degree of these traits can be read into every Godzilla from Megalon to Biollante, except for the first two Godzilla movies when we are supposed to unreservedly root for the humans).

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm not saying to remake the first one.

As I believe I've stated before, Godzilla's personality is easier to express through conflict with a peer.

It is also worth noting that in the history of film, four screenplays have reached preproduction on a solo Godzilla film. 1954, Godzilla 3D in 1983, 1984, and 1998.

In three of those scripts, Godzilla dies. In the fourth, he is not killed but he is dealt an utter defeat...essentially, death-with-a-sequel hook.

I think that killing Godzilla in a neo-Hollywood revival is a mistake because one of the major differences between Godzilla and a typical Hollywood monster is that humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla. A solo movie that doesn't kill or dump Godzilla is certainly possible. It's just unprecedented.

I think that thinking of a sequel is a mistake. The only reason that the "humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla" bares any validity is because it's been done through a span of several low-budget films, but Legendary will be lucky to even start up a trilogy. That theme does NOT, CANNOT apply to a brand new American reboot, not yet.



It's not our analysis that clash more than our opinions. I don't want a Heisei or Shinsei Godzilla, myself. I want a dark, haunting tale like the first. I want Godzilla to be a symbol as much as a character. And it doesn't require Godzilla's definite death at the end to deliver, nor does Godzilla have to be either one or the other to accomplish. To me, adding in a monster drowns out any kind of message the film may have had. It becomes less about the story and more about the fight. I also do not believe that any government in this day and age would think to let Godzilla live simply because he kills off another monster. The only relief they'd get from that is that they now only have to focus all their efforts on killing ONE monster instead of two. An ending where Godzilla defeats the monster and wades out into the sea, I don't see working, especially not for American audiences.



Legendary Pictures is a wild-card of a company. It's made Dark Knight and Where the Wild Things are, but it's also made Ninja Assassin and 10,000 BC. And Roy Lee, one of the producers, is a man who specializes in translating Asian works to the West. His resume includes the Ring, The Grudge, and The Departed.


So the possibilities are really so high up in the air it's ridiculous, but once we have a writer/director confirmed, we will start to have a good idea of what kind of movie this will be.

My personal choice for writing is Neill Blomkamp.


Now, there's OTHER ways this could go about.

They could also:

1) make this a sequel to the first film. Kind of like what GMK did, in that Godzilla has become a legend that some even question is real. There could even be some kind of international coverup of the incident so most outside Japan aren't even aware of him. Then Godzilla hits California.

2) Make it how The Incredible Hulk handled it: forgo an origin story almost completely and have the movie take place in a world where Godzilla is a known, living, prevalent threat. This is kind of what the milleniun movies did, and it opens up a more reasonable possibility for a 2nd monster.


Anyhoo, this is my cents.

[Hybrid Gojira]

Interesting opinions abound; I still like the origin story idea the best but I think Ang is right on as to Godzilla losing in the end. Most movies have the bad guys being defeated or killed in the end, but a good writer would find a way to overcome this. My personal bias is that Godzilla should be the focus of the movie; therefore a solo outing suits this best. At the same point, having a monster get annihilated by him after a brutal fight would be something to see, and a good script should be able to have both monsters and yet focus on Godzilla.

@Pyras: Writing a film with a sequel in mind can have a negative effect on the first film; for example you can't kill off Godzilla if you intend to bring him back (so to speak). However, Godzilla seems to fit in with the current set of Hollywood films in that he can be a cash cow; a SPFX concert starring a large monster has not really been done in the US as it has in Japan. Sure we have Clover but he is not an icon; you have the 50's and 60's movies but we are always remaking those films for modern audiences; you have Kong but his size doesn't allow him to decimate a city. Godzilla has the potential for multiple movies if the first is handled well and I think Legendary Pics is aware of that.

My biggest concern, aside from Godzilla's character, is are the human characters. Do we get the shallow characters we see in most SPFX films?

[anguirus55]

Gojira is not a Godzilla movie at all? I don't understand this..

The only things that Godzilla has in common with a "Godzilla movie" are monster design and special effects techniques. Is that quite clear enough?

Yes it is.. I'm not sure why this is a problem.

"Unique" is the keyword.


This is exactly what Godzilla is about, to me. I don't see how this makes it NOT a Godzilla film, it's like saying the sympathy of Frankenstein's monster refrains the film from being a Frankenstein movie.

Frankenstein's monster was always a sympathetic character. Godzilla's personality dates to 1962, not 1954.

In 1954, Godzilla was the embodiment of a B-29 raid. The only way to cease his destruction was to surrender to the unthinkable.

In 2012, Godzilla means...what, to Americans? Frankly, he is the memorable protagonist of a series of cheesy-but-fun movies, but the prevailing attitude in this thread seems to wish is was not so.

Choosing to ignore the actual history of the character in order to attempt to ape the tone of Godzilla will simply inspire audiences to wonder why they haven't nuked the ******* yet. What is Godzilla a metaphor for in this day and age and place? Russia? Iran? Is he some sort of 70-year belated cosmic revenge for the Manhattan Project? It's hard to come up with something with resonance.

Without personality, and without a metaphor, Godzilla is simply a target. The only possible resolution to the film would be for the American protagonists to find a big enough gun.

They seemed to do it pretty well in The Last Samurai.

Can't speak to the quality of this film, but the historical accuracy was...not. Anyway, without the cultural context a remake of G54 as a period drama is not likely to be as mind-blowingly awesome as people might think. It will be PJ's Kong, entertaining but not surpassing.


I think you misunderstand me.

I'm not saying to remake the first one.

You are, however, saying that this effort needs to forego another monster in order to be more similar to the first one. I disagree with your claim and even more strongly with your rationale.


I think that thinking of a sequel is a mistake.

Perhaps that's why I'm not thinking of a sequel, nor have I mentioned one in this context. Here is my actual quote:


I think that killing Godzilla in a neo-Hollywood revival is a mistake because one of the major differences between Godzilla and a typical Hollywood monster is that humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla.

Now let's go back and look at those solo G scripts. G54 kills Godzilla at the end because, well, it's just too much of a threat to do anything else...plus it demonstraes the power of Serizawa's sacrifice and the continuing arms race. BUT, Yamane delivers the moral to the audience: Godzilla will remain a threat (somehow) unless we change our ways.

In G84, Godzilla is not killed but nearly so. The message is not as clear (although, ironically, it is in the Raymond Burr version), but it is present...Godzilla is still here, and the more passive method of understanding him and luring him was more successful than the brute-force solution.

In the American scripts, no vestige of this theme remains intact. Both films make you sympathize with Godzilla, but when he's dead, the threat is over. (In fact, in G98, Jean Reno's motivation is to clean up his government's mess...by killing Godzilla. He doesn't give a damn about the damage to the island itself, or the implications of atomic weaponry, etc. This was Doing It Wrong.)

I am at this point less than confident that the death of Godzilla in an American film will convey any message other than "Good thing that's over with." This will be especially true if his personality does not shine forth.

The only reason that the "humanity has to learn to live with Godzilla" bares any validity is because it's been done through a span of several low-budget films, but Legendary will be lucky to even start up a trilogy. That theme does NOT, CANNOT apply to a brand new American reboot, not yet.

See above for my rebuttal to this.

I want Godzilla to be a symbol as much as a character.

Fine. What symbol do you suggest?

To me, adding in a monster drowns out any kind of message the film may have had.

What makes you say that? Nearly all larger-than-life villains/rogues symbolize something. There are many more Godzilla films with messages in them than there are ones that just star Godzilla.

It becomes less about the story and more about the fight.

I would venture to guess that many of our mutually favorite stories involve fighting.

I also do not believe that any government in this day and age would think to let Godzilla live simply because he kills off another monster.

In a vacuum, perhaps not, but this is where the rest of the story can come in. This worked out decently well in the G94 script. Maybe not hyper-realistic, but we have already conceded that option when we started talking about a kaiju movie.

An ending where Godzilla defeats the monster and wades out into the sea, I don't see working, especially not for American audiences.

It has been working for American audiences for almost 50 years. Why do you think that Legendary Pictures thinks it can make money on this property? It's not because of G98.

And if I may be uncharitable, logic means a hell of a lot less to audiences than does the emotional ride of the film. If we are "with" Godzilla at the end of the film, it will be a lot more acceptable when President Whitmore or whoever decides "Eh, we'll try to kill him another day!"


1) make this a sequel to the first film. Kind of like what GMK did, in that Godzilla has become a legend that some even question is real. There could even be some kind of international coverup of the incident so most outside Japan aren't even aware of him. Then Godzilla hits California.

2) Make it how The Incredible Hulk handled it: forgo an origin story almost completely and have the movie take place in a world where Godzilla is a known, living, prevalent threat. This is kind of what the milleniun movies did, and it opens up a more reasonable possibility for a 2nd monster.

Either would work for me. I can imagine an EPIC opening-credits montage setting up the world of scenario 2. :D

[Zardac the Great]

Just floating an idea.

It's not even a guess. I doubt it will happen, but...


Kong.

[BS Digital Q]

Just floating an idea.

It's not even a guess. I doubt it will happen, but...


Kong.Universal. Warner Brothers. See the problem?

[Orga777]

The only things that Godzilla has in common with a "Godzilla movie" are monster design and special effects techniques. Is that quite clear enough?

So, the original Gojira, that MADE Godzilla is less of a Godzilla movie than something like Godzilla vs. Gigan in your opinion? I don't know what you are smoking, but I think it could be skewing what you are looking at big time. It is actually the other way around Ang. Every single Godzilla moie divereged from what was originally intended for the character. The closest movie that is to the true spirit of Godzilla is the original. I won't buy your theory here at all.


Frankenstein's monster was always a sympathetic character. Godzilla's personality dates to 1962, not 1954.

Can I call out "bullshit"?

Without personality, and without a metaphor, Godzilla is simply a target. The only possible resolution to the film would be for the American protagonists to find a big enough gun.

A good writer would be able to hanle that problem and GIVE Godzilla a metaphore that can resonate with audiences today. It doesn't need to be some monster romp all made to sell freaking tickets because it is "awesome." I had ENOUGH with crap like the Transformers series getting **** on even more than usual by Hollowood. Heck, Hollowood can't even do mindless action right using Transformers as an example.


You are, however, saying that this effort needs to forego another monster in order to be more similar to the first one. I disagree with your claim and even more strongly with your rationale.

Another monster involved will diminish the human cast more than is required. I would like engaging characters thank you.

[BS Digital Q]

So, the original Gojira, that MADE Godzilla is less of a Godzilla movie than something like Godzilla vs. Gigan in your opinion? I don't know what you are smoking, but I think it could be skewing what you are looking at big time. It is actually the other way around Ang. Every single Godzilla moie divereged from what was originally intended for the character. The closest movie that is to the true spirit of Godzilla is the original. I won't buy your theory here at all.Sequels universally are the movies that define and shape a recurring character, while the first lays down the basic foundation they build on.

Ang is right. Up until the Heisei series, King Kong vs. Godzilla helped define his character more than the original. It'd help that KKvG moved more tickets than any other Godzilla film to date, and is pretty much the one Godzilla film that more than any of the others almost anyone will know about, even if they know nothing else about the movie or Godzilla.

And even the Heisei series? Godzilla has a personality and character in those movies too. He's still quite different from the original. Hell, the closest they got IMO was in '84. But y'know which version of that movie is better? The American one, where he is given pathos, and a more sympathetic character toward the end.


A good writer would be able to hanle that problem and GIVE Godzilla a metaphore that can resonate with audiences today. It doesn't need to be some monster romp all made to sell freaking tickets because it is "awesome." I had ENOUGH with crap like the Transformers series getting **** on even more than usual by Hollowood. Heck, Hollowood can't even do mindless action right using Transformers as an example.No. What Godzilla needs is be a character, with personality, one the audiences can invest in. Not a bullshit 'metaphor' that a director and writer, short of a friggin' stroke of genius, would never do well in this day and age.

I want a dynamic, action filled movie that I can enjoy regardless of any deficiencies. As long as the characters don't offend me, and Godzilla is faithful to his general depiction, and we get epic giant monster action, I will be content.

Another monster involved will diminish the human cast more than is required. I would like engaging characters thank you.A good writer would be able to give us another monster and engaging characters. But of course, you're the one so dead set on that, whereas I've already made peace with the fact that the human cast will most likely not be much to talk about. Then again, same can be said for most of the Godzilla series to begin with.

[Orga777]

Sequels universally are the movies that define and shape a recurring character, while the first lays down the basic foundation they build on.

I disagree completely. Using that as an example, the Prequel Star Wars films are "closer to Star Wars" than the original Trilogy, or Alien 3 is "closer to Alien" moreso than the original film. And there are countless other examples where sequels do infinitly more damage than "defining" a character. Godzilla is the BEST example of that.


Ang is right. Up until the Heisei series, King Kong vs. Godzilla helped define his character more than the original. It'd help that KKvG moved more tickets than any other Godzilla film to date, and is pretty much the one Godzilla film that more than any of the others almost anyone will know about, even if they know nothing else about the movie or Godzilla.


So what? I don't see what that has to do with anything what so ever. I don't care how famous something is. Quality has always been more important in my view. And King Kong vs. Godzilla is not exactly a quality experience and in that movie, it started the start of Godzilla's decent which was capped off completely from what was intended with Son of Godzilla (and it only got worse from there till G85.)


And even the Heisei series? Godzilla has a personality and character in those movies too. He's still quite different from the original. Hell, the closest they got IMO was in '84. But y'know which version of that movie is better? The American one, where he is given pathos, and a more sympathetic character toward the end.


Fine and dandy. I don't mind a reimaging of the character if it is done right like it was in G84 and Biollante.

No. What Godzilla needs is be a character, with personality, one the audiences can invest in. Not a bullshit 'metaphor' that a director and writer, short of a friggin' stroke of genius, would never do well in this day and age.

Just like Pyras, I don't just want a metaphor either. I want Goji to have character as well as symbolic. I could have failed to get that across earlier, and that is my own fault.

I want a dynamic, action filled movie that I can enjoy regardless of any deficiencies. As long as the characters don't offend me, and Godzilla is faithful to his general depiction, and we get epic giant monster action, I will be content.

Then it is a overall waste of time for the US to even BOTHER doing this except to waste more money on special effects. Screw that. I can get all of what you said with Toho making the damn movie themselves on under half the budget.

A good writer would be able to give us another monster and engaging characters.

And you would be completely correct BS. Sadly I see Hollowood having more trouble doing so than if they only had to focus on Godzilla. Hence my stance.

But of course, you're the one so dead set on that, whereas I've already made peace with the fact that the human cast will most likely not be much to talk about.

Yeah, I am pretty sure they will be trash too. Hell, I am still pretty sure this whole MOVIE will be trash. Doesn't mean I have to like that fact and would hope for something that isn't mind numbingly stupid.

Then again, same can be said for most of the Godzilla series to begin with.

Which is why this is all a waste of time for Hollywood to even bother making except to say "Look aT mY SPeCiaL EffcTs!!11!!11!11" again. Like I said posts ago. I got enough sub-par Godzilla movies in my room I can watch for the same expereince. Give me something worth my time and money.

[BS Digital Q]

I disagree completely. Using that as an example, the Prequel Star Wars films are "closer to Star Wars" than the original Trilogy, or Alien 3 is "closer to Alien" moreso than the original film. And there are countless other examples where sequels do infinitly more damage than "defining" a character. Godzilla is the BEST example of that."closer to"? Stop pulling bullshit out of your ***, thats not what I'm talking about.

Again, sequels define a character. They work off of what the first film gives them, but they refine things. The rules are not necessarily all there immediately in the first. Aliens and Friday the 13th Part 4 are examples of sequels that defined their characters and eclipsed the originals easily.

King Kong vs. Godzilla is another film like that. It pretty much set the overall tone of the entire Showa series and indirectly influenced the rest of the Godzilla series. I can pretty much guarantee you that's the one Godzilla film everyone knows about, whether or not they've actually seen it or know anything about it beyond Godzilla fighting King Kong.

So what? I don't see what that has to do with anything what so ever.It has everything to do with this. I swear you have Alzheimer's sometimes.

I don't care how famous something is. Quality has always been more important in my view.Good luck getting anywhere in entertainment kid. What is popular is not necessarily good. And when it boils down to it, popularity trumps quality by miles. People see what they like. Ticket sales and money talk.

And King Kong vs. Godzilla is not exactly a quality experience and in that movie, it started the start of Godzilla's decent which was capped off completely from what was intended with Son of Godzilla (and it only got worse from there till G85.)Too bad then. Cause KKvG is still numero uno in ticket sales and money made (adjusted for inflation) and most likely the most well-known Godzilla film ever. And guess what comes in second place? Godzilla vs. Mothra: BFE. Why? Cause they appealed to more people. Kids and women namely. Thats why Kick-*** is getting its *** kicked at the box office. The wider your audience, the greater your chances of getting more money.

Fine and dandy. I don't mind a reimaging of the character if it is done right like it was in G84 and Biollante.Shame both of those films were financial bombs that led to Toho pulling mini-breaks on Godzilla. The first successful Godzilla film in the Heisei series? Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah. And then came GvM: BFE. Even bigger sales. Both films appealed to wider audiences than the previous two, and it showed.

Then it is a overall waste of time for the US to even BOTHER doing this except to waste more money on special effects. Screw that. I can get all of what you said with Toho making the damn movie themselves on under half the budget.No you can't. Cause for all our love of Toho, they can't deliver the same kind of experience.

And you would be completely correct BS. Sadly I see Hollowood having more trouble doing so than if they only had to focus on Godzilla. Hence my stance.Naw, a crap writer is a crap writer, no matter what they're doing.

Which is why this is all a waste of time for Hollywood to even bother making except to say "Look aT mY SPeCiaL EffcTs!!11!!11!11" again. Like I said posts ago. I got enough sub-par Godzilla movies in my room I can watch for the same expereince. Give me something worth my time and money.Sucks to be you then. :cool:

[Mecha74]

Too bad then. Cause KKvG is still numero uno in ticket sales and money made (adjusted for inflation) and most likely the most well-known Godzilla film ever. And guess what comes in second place? Godzilla vs. Mothra: BFE. Why? Cause they appealed to more people. Kids and women namely. Thats why Kick-*** is getting its *** kicked at the box office. The wider your audience, the greater your chances of getting more money.


I hate to interrupt this heated debate but I feel the need to chime in on this and say that I agree with BS on this one. Director Matthew Vaughn shopped Kick-*** around to several major studios who all told him they would only take the film on if he conceded to a list of changes that would make the film more accessible to a wider audience. In the end he said no and ended up financing the film on his own. And while I admire him for sticking to his guns and his vision, it does indeed look as if he is going to take it in the @$$ financially as a result.

The point I’m trying to make is this, I’m relatively sure Hollywood couldn’t give a damn less about the rather small Godzilla fandom and what we do or don’t want for this film. If the would be director was someone like you Orga with your ideas for the movie, the sad truth is there's a good chance you would be treated the same way Vaughn was unfortunetly. In the end they will go with what they think will make money, even if it ends up butchering the final product completely.

I would like to think they couldn’t do worse than GINO…but I don’t want to pull a jinx.

[Orga777]

This is sad... I don't even want to argue this any more. The reason? Because I KNOW you guys are correct, and that pisses me off that I really do see this film going just like you guys expect it will. I am only arguing for the HOPE that we will get something worth it... But we aren't. We are not going to GET an actual worth while experience. We are not going to get anything but a special effects showcase which will probably end up being hollow, mediocre, with sub-par acting and terrible plot. It will not be worth my money. The only thing we can realistically hope for is something better than GINO and hope it is "just another Godzilla movie." And that will just solidify my hate for modern Hollywood who cares more about money than quality material.

[BS Digital Q]

You know whats really sad?

We're arguing about all this, and one of us has even made up his mind on exactly what this film is gonna be like and how god it'll be, when...


We haven't even seen ONE scrap of ANYTHING about this movie or what's gonna be in it.

That, my friend, is what's really sad.

[Orga777]

You know whats really sad?

We're arguing about all this, and one of us has even made up his mind on exactly what this film is gonna be like and how god it'll be, when...


We haven't even seen ONE scrap of ANYTHING about this movie or what's gonna be in it.

That, my friend, is what's really sad.

Hey, the only reason I think that is because Hollywood track records on movies like this are VERY poor. XD

[BS Digital Q]

I personally wouldn't generalize like that. Its really up and down. Honestly, it all depends on what sorts of people get put together.

[Orga777]

I personally wouldn't generalize like that. Its really up and down. Honestly, it all depends on what sorts of people get put together.

I don't know about the up and down part, but you do have a point that it all matters on who is put together. But as I said, I can only HOPE for something worth the time. I will believe it when I see it. But, I have been proven wrong before (with Iron Man) so it isn't impossible... I just hope we get something more than another giant monster movie with pretty special effects.

[BS Digital Q]

xD

You seriously need to get back in touch with your childhood Godzilla fan dude.

[Orga777]

xD

You seriously need to get back in touch with your childhood Godzilla fan dude.

I can't HELP it though. XD

Once I got older I started wanting more out of the movie experience. Even action movies! Yes, it is sad, but since I HAVE seen good action movies (and good kaiju movies), I expect good action movies (or... well, kaiju movies...) I still do enjoy many of the kaiju movies though. Heck, I still enjoy Godzilla vs. Gigan of all movies.

I just feel I have enough Goji movies that fall in that catagory, and with the US getting a second shot at doing the movie after that other atrocity, I like to think they will give me something good.:laugh:

[PyrasTerran]

Blargh, I KNEW I shouldn't have gotten into this, I don't have time to pick apart points like I used to XD

My apologies, but I don't believe my point is worth defending, nor do I believe your point is worth arguing.

When the first Batman movie was being made, and Michael Keaton was chosen to play Batman, everyone went up in arms about it. Incidentally, there was a small uproar when Heath Ledger was cast as the Joker, too.

I bring this up to prove that none of us can claim that we know what will work and what won't in such a manner as to completely disregard all other options. Kong wasn't killed by its period piece passion, it was killed by its LENGTH.

I don't know how anyone can think that the formula has worked for American audiences.. is that why only one Japanese Godzilla film out of several in the past decade made it to theatres? Last I checked, unless it's a superhero or can turn into a car, American audiences don't quite care one way or the other about two giant monsters duking it out. There is NO evidence to protect this claim,

and it brings me to what my point was SUPPOSED to be from the start: QUALITY

Anyone here can debate me until the cows come home but there comes a time when we need to face facts: Godzilla movies suck more often than not. They're no good in the SFX department, they have terrible acting and worse dubbing, and they're stifled in Japanese nuances that never connect to the mainstream anywhere else in the world. The average movie goer likes Godzilla because of his cult status, not because of the quality of their films.

I love Godzilla films to death but I would never recommend them for the average moviegoer EXCEPT for the 1st, and I'd only recommend the 1st to real movie buffs or film students. Heck, Godzilla movies aren't even in my top 5 best movies list.

Ticket sales of Godzilla movies in the 90's mean jack because they occurred in Japan, where the audience has conditioned itself to not care as much about crap like story and SFX.

So when I say that this next Godzilla movie needs to take a ticket from the 1st film, I don't mean to copy its style, I mean to copy its QUALITY.

whether or not it's topical is irrelevent. War of the Worlds was originally about English imperialism. In the 50's it was about Cold-War anxiety. The latest version was made in the atmosphere of foreign terrorism.

Godzilla's anti-war message can hold true today, of all times. Or it can even be switched to be environmental, as that is an issue right now too. There are a LOT of things the public is scared about nowadays, there is plenty of fodder to make a Godzilla movie topical, if that is your concern.

Even the 'best' Godzilla movies outside Gojira don't hold a candle to the first, and DEFINITELY don't hold a candle to some of the best monster sci-fi outside of Japan.

And this is why I don't think we need to debate, unless you're saying that this 2012 film shouldn't strive to be something greater, like the 1st?

[chillening]

Too bad then. Cause KKvG is still numero uno in ticket sales and money made (adjusted for inflation) and most likely the most well-known Godzilla film ever. And guess what comes in second place? Godzilla vs. Mothra: BFE. Why? Cause they appealed to more people. Kids and women namely. Thats why Kick-*** is getting its *** kicked at the box office. The wider your audience, the greater your chances of getting more money.

Shame both of those films were financial bombs that led to Toho pulling mini-breaks on Godzilla. The first successful Godzilla film in the Heisei series? Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah. And then came GvM: BFE. Even bigger sales. Both films appealed to wider audiences than the previous two, and it showed.

Some of this didn't look right to me, especially GvsM being in second place and GvsKG being a bigger hit than G1985. I did a little research and came across this thread:

http://www.tohokingdom.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2712&highlight=grossing

We see that, while KKvG is indeed the highest grossing Godzilla film, Gojira and Godzilla Raids Again, two of the most serious films in the series, are right behind it. You can also see that Godzilla 1985 just barely missed the top 10, and in fact, made more money than GvsKG, which you said was the first hit of the Heisei series.

Oh and Kick *** flopped because it was an immensely stupid film.

[BS Digital Q]

Some of this didn't look right to me, especially GvsM being in second place and GvsKG being a bigger hit than G1985. I did a little research and came across this thread:

http://www.tohokingdom.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2712&highlight=grossing

We see that, while KKvG is indeed the highest grossing Godzilla film, Gojira and Godzilla Raids Again, two of the most serious films in the series, are right behind it. You can also see that Godzilla 1985 just barely missed the top 10, and in fact, made more money than GvsKG, which you said was the first hit of the Heisei series.Not to diss the TKers, but I'd like to see where the figures come from. I got mine from a semi-scholarly source a while back, and further reading seemed to support it. As I've understood it, in terms of money GvM is/was the reigning champ, but adjusted for inflation KKvG gets on top. I know the original film was a box office smash, but not G84, which IIRC, did not do as well as Toho had hoped it would. Biollante was an even bigger disaster, IIRC only eclipsed by GvSG.

Oh and Kick *** flopped because it was an immensely stupid film.You're mistaking the comic for the movie. Kick-A$$ kicks major ***. It just so happens its an R-rated psuedo-superhero movie with zero appeal to older demographics or female demographics.

[anguirus55]

So, the original Gojira, that MADE Godzilla is less of a Godzilla movie than something like Godzilla vs. Gigan in your opinion? I don't know what you are smoking, but I think it could be skewing what you are looking at big time. It is actually the other way around Ang. Every single Godzilla moie divereged from what was originally intended for the character. The closest movie that is to the true spirit of Godzilla is the original. I won't buy your theory here at all.

I am tempted to say "only in this fandom can two people violently disagree over how they describe a film that both of them think is one of the best ever made."

Except it wouldn't be true.

Anyway, my argument is historical. How many of us consider Godzilla to be a typical entry in the Godzilla series? Zero. The phrase "Godzilla movie" more accurately describes one of Godzilla many sequels, many of which have more in common with cheesy fun like Yog than with Godzilla.

Think about what would happen if you asked a film critic to describe "a Godzilla movie."

Can I call out "bullshit"?

No, in fact, you may not, because you haven't addressed, in any way, the point that I was making.

Just to refresh your memory, I stated the following:
"Frankenstein's monster was always a sympathetic character. Godzilla's personality dates to 1962, not 1954."

I have elaborated on this above, if you bothered reading it. Godzilla has no personality in 1954 and 1955, he is a villain to be eliminated. He destroyed Tokyo for no intrinsic reason, he fought Anguirus because, well, Anguirus was there. I suppose you could grant him the traits "destructive" and "savage," but those are not very descriptive.

In 1962, suddenly we see a Godzilla who is irritable, competitive, and has a black sense of humor. Those traits have been downplayed from time to time, but I would argue that they have never really left the character and the traits he has in 1962 are perhaps the ONLY constants in a wildly mutable character.

Your knee-jerk denial does not change this, and I suspect that you resorted to it because you can't think of any personality traits from G54. Keep in mind that this doesn't affect G54's quality as a film.

A good writer would be able to hanle that problem and GIVE Godzilla a metaphore that can resonate with audiences today.

Fairies could solve all of our problems, too. You think I don't want this thing to have a good script? Do you think I would turn up my nose at a well-written solo Godzilla movie? Of course not! However, you have not offered any compelling reason why a good Godzilla movie must be a solo outing, nor that it must be some sort of Dark Drama of Darkness. Mimicking the tone of G54 will not produce a film with the quality of G54.

It doesn't need to be some monster romp all made to sell freaking tickets because it is "awesome."

From the producers' point of view, this movie does need to sell tickets. This movie is being produced to capitalize on a market, as all big budget movies must. This is not something we can change.

I had ENOUGH with crap like the Transformers series getting **** on even more than usual by Hollowood. Heck, Hollowood can't even do mindless action right using Transformers as an example.

This first Transformers movie kicked ***. The second one sucked, but it was really neutered by the writing strike.

The first Transformers movie is like a poster child for reinventing a completely ridiculous franchise into something funny and cool-looking.

Another monster involved will diminish the human cast more than is required. I would like engaging characters thank you.

How do you figure? Adding another monster almost doubled the human cast of G94 because it gave the film an engaging subplot.

You keep making blanket statements with absolutely no reasoning behind them, and you accuse me of peddling bullshit? Internet Fail.

[anguirus55]

Pyras, I don't believe that you will find anyone here who doesn't want the movie to be good.

Oh and Orga, have you seen the Japanese version of KKvsG? I only saw it once myself, back when there were whole Godzilla movies on YouTube. It's actually kind of brilliant.

Ishiro Honda: "Ok, I am making a movie about King Kong, fighting Godzilla, in order to make a massive amount of money for the studio...**** this ****, I'm going to make a movie about how ridiculous it is for businessmen to try and make monsters fight each other for money."

[chillening]

Not to diss the TKers, but I'd like to see where the figures come from. I got mine from a semi-scholarly source a while back, and further reading seemed to support it. As I've understood it, in terms of money GvM is/was the reigning champ, but adjusted for inflation KKvG gets on top. I know the original film was a box office smash, but not G84, which IIRC, did not do as well as Toho had hoped it would. Biollante was an even bigger disaster, IIRC only eclipsed by GvSG.

You're mistaking the comic for the movie. Kick-A$$ kicks major ***. It just so happens its an R-rated psuedo-superhero movie with zero appeal to older demographics or female demographics.

I don't know what sources TKers use but the numbers seem accurate. GvsM was a huge hit for Toho, but when you factor in inflation, it surely wasn't number 1 or 2. Ticket sales are the best way to determine how well a film did, and going by that, the only three Godzilla films that were smash hits were the first three.

[Orga777]

Pyras, I don't believe that you will find anyone here who doesn't want the movie to be good.

Oh and Orga, have you seen the Japanese version of KKvsG? I only saw it once myself, back when there were whole Godzilla movies on YouTube. It's actually kind of brilliant.

Sadly no.... :( I would like to though.

Ishiro Honda: "Ok, I am making a movie about King Kong, fighting Godzilla, in order to make a massive amount of money for the studio...**** this ****, I'm going to make a movie about how ridiculous it is for businessmen to try and make monsters fight each other for money."

XD Awesome.

EDIT:
Oh, and, Ang55, I don't know how you can say the first Transformers was "awesome." It was average at best and had some of very poor acting. Not only that, but the Decepticons got severely shafted. I will grant it that it was at least watchable, which the sequel is most definitely NOT. XD

[Tomzilla]

Reading over these posts, it looks like both sides want a really good movie. And if miracles do exist, we'd all love to see another Gojira in terms of quality and impact. Alas, one side seems to think the other doesn't want this to happen when in fact all they're being is realistic.

As for me, I believe we'll someday get another Gojira. Fans generally think otherwise because 1) what made that film work--the metaphors, the message, the symbolism--would be lost to today's audiences, 2) the average moviegoer sees Godzilla not as a harbinger of atomic doom but as a goofy Barney character on steroids, 3) it's foolish to try and be better than the original film.

Here are the solutions:

1) We've had discussions about this before. Do people here honestly think the mainstream public aren't afraid of nuclear weapons? Sorry, but people aren't as stupid as we like to claim. If there's one thing we all have in common, it's survival. Nuclear weapons threaten our lives, especially when they're in the hands of homicidal maniacs. If in the hands of a gifted storyteller, it wouldn't matter if the material is old. No, all that matters is how it's executed. There are plenty of good storytellers capable of doing precisely that.

And really, all you need to do is portray Godzilla as a legitimate threat, and you'll have audiences fearing him. Show what's he's capable of. Our imaginations will do the rest. Finally, it's not difficult to portray him as a metaphor of some kind. It doesn't just have to be nuclear weapons. Believe it or not, Gojira isn't the only Godzilla movie loaded with symbolism. There's so much more in later films. But the reason why the first is still the best is simply because of its execution. There, we've come full circle with my original point.

2) So what if the average moviegoer thinks Godzilla is Barney on steroids. Screw what they think. They're mainstream for a reason. If you're in the driver's seat, you have the power to change what they think. Do you really think people thought superheroes or robots were cool before The Dark Knight, Iron Man, Spider-Man, X-Men, or Transformers made serious bank? This goes back to my original point. Execution. If you want Godzilla to stop being campy, portray him as a badass. You'll need good special effects, a decent story, and some very good fight scenes. That's it. That's the recipe for making audiences go, "Man, I totally thought Godzilla was gay. Now he's awesome!" If you want audiences to think Godzilla movies are more than just entertaining--in a good way if you've succeeded in portraying him as a badass--make a damn good story, have characters we'll care about, and make sure its executed well. In doing so, you've guaranteed not only Godzilla's second coming, but a reawakening of some kind.

That reawakening is a new golden age for monster movies. And if one good monster movie becomes a box office hit, expect more. We saw this happen with superhero movies less than a decade ago. It might happen with Godzilla and his ilk.

3) Yes, it's foolish to try and be better than the first movie. But just because I want another Gojira, doesn't mean I want it to be better. Seriously, we only see American fans acting this way. We're so competitive, we always try comparing our ambitions to others, while trying not to offend or break our traditions in the process (we don't care about other traditions ;)). I wonder if Japanese fans feel the same way. I bet most of them would give a thumbs up at the thought of a new Godzilla movie being as good as the original.


The point is we could very well get a movie comparable to Gojira. We could get a film with a great plot, memorable characters, impressive SFX, awesome kaiju sequences, and a Godzilla with a unique personality. We can get that and a nice juicy metaphor, too. We can get not only a Godzilla who honors his roots (nuclear war allegory, force of nature) but also one loaded with new metaphors, too. It's all very possible. I'm hoping we get exactly that.

And if we don't? I hope it's still fun and enjoyable to watch, regardless.

[anguirus55]

Oh, and, Ang55, I don't know how you can say the first Transformers was "awesome." It was average at best and had some of very poor acting. Not only that, but the Decepticons got severely shafted. I will grant it that it was at least watchable, which the sequel is most definitely NOT. XD

Aside: I can because it got me back into Transformers, lol. The movie is visually astonishing, Shia is watchable (he's basically freaking out and wisecracking his way through the movie, I can relate), and the Decepticons are actually scary for the first time in human history.

And give Revenge of the Fallen (a little) credit for the greatest robot fight that has ever been. The artists of this new Godzilla movie could take a few cues from the dynamism of the forest battle. Devastator also gave an impression of size better than any kaiju EVER has, despite his overall weak role in the proceedings. It actually is amazing how much freedom stepping away from suit + miniatures gives you...


The point is we could very well get a movie comparable to Gojira. We could get a film with a great plot, memorable characters, impressive SFX, awesome kaiju sequences, and a Godzilla with a unique personality. We can get that and a nice juicy metaphor, too. We can get not only a Godzilla who honors his roots (nuclear war allegory, force of nature) but also one loaded with new metaphors, too. It's all very possible. I'm hoping we get exactly that.

This would be amazing. The point I was trying to dispute before is that the new script should share certain specific characteristics with G54 that I believe are not relevant to whether this new script is a work of good quality or not. Such as it being a solo outing.

[Orga777]

Aside: I can because it got me back into Transformers, lol. The movie is visually astonishing, Shia is watchable (he's basically freaking out and wisecracking his way through the movie, I can relate), and the Decepticons are actually scary for the first time in human history.

I disagree completely on Shia. He is just a dreadful actor. And boy, does Megan Fox make me want to puncture my ear drums with a rusty screwdriver... I don't care HOW hot she is, she should be banned from acting.

And, yeah, the Decepticons were threatening... when they were actually on screen. Which was non-existent for any of them not called Megatron (who only showed up in the last freaking half hour.) I didn't like how they were handled. Not even Starscream did anything. The one series where giant robots are not only less boring, but also have more character than the human characters, and we barely even see them? The hell man...

And give Revenge of the Fallen (a little) credit for the greatest robot fight that has ever been. The artists of this new Godzilla movie could take a few cues from the dynamism of the forest battle. Devastator also gave an impression of size better than any kaiju EVER has, despite his overall weak role in the proceedings. It actually is amazing how much freedom stepping away from suit + miniatures gives you...

The only credit I will give that cinematic bile is that Starscream was in-character from the very beginning. And it also had Ravage done well. That is all it will ever get out of me. Everything else is painful on my brain. As for Devastator.... total suckage... pun not intended. XD

Transformers 2 should be used by the guys working on this Godzilla movie on how NOT to make an iconic series into a movie. XD

[anguirus55]

"You'll never stop at one, Megatron! I'll take you ALL on!"

Just to wrench this back into being on-topic, if the writers of G2012 understand Godzilla even as well as the writers of the TF movies understand Optimus Prime, then we are in for a treat that will take Devlinzilla out back and shoot it. They understood what you can change, and what you cannot change. OP hurling himself into a trap to save Sam and then fighting so hard he almost gets back out of it again...well, let's just say it lived up to the most heroic moments in the cartoon, only with extra holyshitawesome.

[zilla90]

"You'll never stop at one, Megatron! I'll take you ALL on!"

Just to wrench this back into being on-topic, if the writers of G2012 understand Godzilla even as well as the writers of the TF movies understand Optimus Prime, then we are in for a treat that will take Devlinzilla out back and shoot it. They understood what you can change, and what you cannot change. OP hurling himself into a trap to save Sam and then fighting so hard he almost gets back out of it again...well, let's just say it lived up to the most heroic moments in the cartoon, only with extra holyshitawesome.
I agree that its possible for hollywood to honor a series in such a way but there is one thing to remember about transformers. There was a sequel...and (at least to me) was a huge downhill ride from the first movie. So even though its possible for hollywood to honor the series, it is just as likely that they will do quite a bit to piss off a lot of Godzilla fans.

[anguirus55]

As discussed, the sequel to Transformers was a series of worthy moments embedded in a sort of molasses of failure. That's what happens when three decent screenwriters (see: Star Trek) are locked in a hotel room for four months to retro-write a script for a movie that's been in preproduction for a year and they have to please the fans, Hasbro, and Michael Bay.

Credit where credit is due and so for blame, I've always believed. Michael Bay deserves nearly equal shares of credit and blame IMO with regards to his overall impact on the franchise. Whereas the Writer's Strike (rather, the profit-seeking decision to press on with the film anyway) was a deathblow.

[Mecha74]

So even though its possible for hollywood to honor the series, it is just as likely that they will do quite a bit to piss off a lot of Godzilla fans.

Well, it doesn't seem to me like there are ALLOT of Godzilla fans anymore. As spfx tech grows more and more advanced in modern film I see allot of hate and animosity directed not only at Godzilla films but any sci-fi film that seems low budget or outdated to the current generation.

The kaiju fandom as a whole has always been rather small compared to other sci-fi genre fandoms, and obviously not large enough to sway ticket sales as Godzilla 2000’s dismal box office returns proved. Previous statements have been made that they want to stay true to the spirit of what makes Godzilla work as a character and as a movie, but in the end the mainstream is still Hollywood's bread and butter. not niche fandoms like ours.

And they will cater to the mainstream in order to make money.

What that will result in on screen however, remains to be seen.

[X-SOLDIER]

I can go any way on this, but it all boils down to one thing in my mind: continuity of the film.

No Monster / New Monster
If Godzilla is showing up with a special message for America, and/or he's shown in his own continuity like in Gojira or GMK, then I want to see him carrying his message on his own, and for humanity to have to learn from it. Portraying Godzilla as a monster with a purpose, rather that just as an animal will be able to help it stand apart from the '98 Zilla film, because you're focusing on him as an entity, and following that message. This can easily be done without another Kaiju, while still being unique.

This can easily be spun up with a new monster, if the actions of America somehow directly release a dangerous Kaiju, it would provide a good explanation for Godzilla showing up as a hero, and living to fight another day (or another film, since people want sequels now), while still letting him be a monster with a purpose, and not just a senseless brawl. While this COULD be done with a previously established Kaiju, I think that there's a greater benefit from using a unique Kaiju for a unique continuity.

Returning Kaiju
The other possibility is that the film is willing to drop some elements in up front, like Monster Island, which means that we will almost certainly going to see other Toho Kaiju. This is risky, as it could be bogged down with cameos, but could be done well, depending on the design. Leaving them out has one big advantage. It lets the directors/designers see the reaction to Godzilla's design, and plan accordingly for the other well know Kaiju to get the best reaction from the movie-goers, and Godzilla fanbase. I could see this happening for a couple of reasons; One, it distances itself from the previous US film very obviously, and avoids comparisons (which could be good or bad). Two, most movies that involve previously established characters within a preset universe don't often see the need to painfuly toil over explaining them for the purpose of reaching its story, since it's assumed that it's relatively well established by previous films.


My guess:
I think that with all the reboots that have been coming out, and for the most part being fairly successful in bringing the bar up for the new films into current technology, we're not looking at seeing a Godzilla film in a pre-established continuity. We may hear about Monster Island, but unless the film wants to take us there in a Jurassic Park-type expedition, I don't see the focus going there for long (if at all), until a possible sequel (if that's how it's set up). So at this point, I'm guessing it'll be a new Kaiju or none at all. I'd personally like to see Godzilla wreaking havoc on humanity before seeing him go toe-to-toe with another monster, but I definately won't shun either option.


X :cool:

[Orga777]

As discussed, the sequel to Transformers was a series of worthy moments embedded in a sort of molasses of failure.

Worthy moments? Like Megatron calling Fallen master? Or the racist robot twins? Or the completely unnecessary toilet "humor?" Plopping Optimus Prime onto the landing deck without a second thought like dropping trash into a garbage dump? Or the terrible acting? Or robot heaven? Or the Decepticons getting the shaft... AGAIN? I could go on and probably make this list of 100+ problems. The only thing worthy of anything was Starscream somehow staying in-character through the whole movie and Ravage NOT being completely misrepresented. You can go on and on about Optimus all you want, but he was pulled off better in the first movie where he was dead even with Megatron, and not someone that can take on THREE Decepticons including Megatron and hold his own. And once that power-up happened... what a waste of a final battle THAT was. This movie should have just been called "Yeah, Optimus Prime is the only Transformer worth a damn. Watch him massacre everybody by himself."


That's what happens when three decent screenwriters (see: Star Trek) are locked in a hotel room for four months to retro-write a script for a movie that's been in preproduction for a year and they have to please the fans, Hasbro, and Michael Bay.

Pleasing Michael Bay is easy. Here are three simple steps.
Step 1: Add explosions.
Step 2: Have a plot that is completely incomprehensible.
Step 3: Add more explosions, and it is good to go!
;)

Credit where credit is due and so for blame, I've always believed. Michael Bay deserves nearly equal shares of credit and blame IMO with regards to his overall impact on the franchise. Whereas the Writer's Strike (rather, the profit-seeking decision to press on with the film anyway) was a deathblow.

I think the movie just sucks.;)

[Scorpion13mk2]

Writer strikes always piss me off. Its just giving shows an easy excuse to put on ****.

[Zearatul]

Treat it like these Superhero adaptations and have his origin story tie in with another Monster, preferably something like Mechagodzilla.

Though since space seems to be a no-show as far as villainy goes for film these days, going the mutation route with Ghidorah might also be interesting.

If they don't do another monster, lets hope they do the Oxegyn Destroyer some justice.

[anguirus55]

If Godzilla is showing up with a special message for America, and/or he's shown in his own continuity like in Gojira or GMK, then I want to see him carrying his message on his own, and for humanity to have to learn from it.

Was GMK's message hindered by the presence of the Guardian Beasts?

Orga: You've got a PM coming. ;)

[DinoGeekProductions]

As spfx tech grows more and more advanced in modern film I see allot of hate and animosity directed not only at Godzilla films but any sci-fi film that seems low budget or outdated to the current generation.

It's gotten to be bad. On IMDB, there's actually a review for Ewoks: the Battle for Endor entitled "A pre-200 CGI movie. Which means it sucks." Ignoring that there is no CG in that movie... Arrgh!

What people don't seem to realize is that even though CG is detailed and gritty, more often than not it's just as stylized as any of the Godzilla flicks.

I'm quite sad so few see worth in old school techniques anymore. Special effects were once an art form, and now it just feels manuefactured. But that's just me trying to pretend like I know something.

[The Gryphon]

It should be obvious whats going to happen.

So the new one is a) the product of Godzilla 3D which featured Hedorah because b) Yoshimitsu Banno was the mastermind, and he is still an executive producer and c) have you seen the gulf? Because d) the outrage over this is going to grow exponentially for the next 20 or so years, and by 2012 ignoring it will be like ignoring the color of the sky.

You're a fool if you think there is a chance for anything other than Hedorah to fight Godzilla. I can still see how it might not have a second monster, but then again, you don't just ignore whats happening when you're making a Godzilla movie.

Also, I want to mention I'm still seeing way too much use of the words "hollywood" and "mainstream." Let me clear up some confusion here: this is not a "hollywood" movie, it is a new Godzilla movie that Legendary Pictures is helping to produce. It isn't "mainstream" in the sense that no one involved has any sense of direction for the Godzilla series. As I previously mentioned, Yoshimitsu Banno (just a little thing Godzilla vs. Hedorah) is an executive producer and the only real name attached to the project, let alone previously connected to the series.

I surely understand all the cynicism, as it wouldn't take much to make me suspicious either, but I don't really think it's warranted here. This is going to be a normal Godzilla movie, and nothing has been said that contradicts that or gives any reason for doubting the filmmakers. It's going to be fine, just relax.

And if it IS the second Zilla? Well, Banno will leave, and Toho will drop the project long before that. Remember when they sued Subway? Yeah, Toho is done fudging around, they're playing for keeps now.

Keep your hat on, and if it flies off, I'll go get it for you. For like... 100 yen.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

I surely understand all the cynicism, as it wouldn't take much to make me suspicious either, but I don't really think it's warranted here. This is going to be a normal Godzilla movie, and nothing has been said that contradicts that or gives any reason for doubting the filmmakers. It's going to be fine, just relax.
Remember all of those Japanese-to-American horror films? (The Grudge, The Ring, One Missed Call, etc.) They're all done by Roy Lee. A "specialist" in adapting Japanese properties for American audiences, and from the interviews I've seen with him, he has a very agressive and somewhat abrasive manner about him and I don't see an old japanese ex-tree hugger like Banno being able to have much influence against a slick Hollywood character like Roy Lee.

[The Gryphon]

Remember all of those Japanese-to-American horror films? (The Grudge, The Ring, One Missed Call, etc.) They're all done by Roy Lee. A "specialist" in adapting Japanese properties for American audiences, and from the interviews I've seen with him, he has a very agressive and somewhat abrasive manner about him and I don't see an old japanese ex-tree hugger like Banno being able to have much influence against a slick Hollywood character like Roy Lee.

Lets say that happens. Lets say some guy nobody ever heard of screws Banno out of some managerial decision.

Now I've seen that some of the newer fans have either forgotten, ignored, or never knew what happened in 1998. This is alarming to me, but it allows me to bring up a good angle on this: Toho trusted what the slick hollywood shysters wanted to do, because they admitted they had no idea how to make a hollywood film, and felt the interpretation needed to be fleshed out from an American perspective, not a Japanese one. There was a moment when Toho first saw Tatopoulus's designs and they could have bailed out right then and there, but they went through with simply because they had no understand of how the hollywood system worked, why it worked, or why Godzilla was being "translated" in this way. They trusted the big-pocketed American sleazeballs, and it was the greatest mistake the company has ever made.

They now understand that hollywood producers do not "interpret," they "turn into an unrelated idea." Ever since they made the wrong call on Zilla, they have made up for it with an iron grip on the franchise that is so air-tight they had to be haggled with in order to give Anguirus a move in a fighting game that he would use in a movie 2 years later! They sued Subway for featuring a character that looks nothing like Godzilla just to prove a point.

On TV Tropes, this is called "Punching Out Worf." You take out the biggest guy in the room to show you mean business.

I can except that in the eyes of an American producer, Yoshimitsu Banno may not look like much, but to Toho he is an excellent Litmus test. When the man who made Godzilla fly thinks you've gone too far, it's time to close up shop.

I could of course go on about this forever. What I'm trying to say is that while many people refuse to learn from their mistakes, Toho has done everything in its power to show us that they are well aware of what will happen if they don't tell hollywood how high to jump.

And if all that isn't enough for you, just remember what they did to G-fan magazine.

I'm starting to think maybe I should start a thread devoted to calming everyone's fears about the hollywood involvement.

[BS Digital Q]

On TV Tropes, this is called "Punching Out Worf." You take out the biggest guy in the room to show you mean business.No, it isn't. There's "Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu?" and "The Worf Effect," but what you just described does not apply to either. Besides, I'd rather trust an official source on what happened than one fan' interpretation.

I could of course go on about this forever. What I'm trying to say is that while many people refuse to learn from their mistakes, Toho has done everything in its power to show us that they are well aware of what will happen if they don't tell hollywood how high to jump.

And if all that isn't enough for you, just remember what they did to G-fan magazine.

I'm starting to think maybe I should start a thread devoted to calming everyone's fears about the hollywood involvement.Godzilla: Final ****ing Wars.

[Da_Jinx]

And if all that isn't enough for you, just remember what they did to G-fan magazine.

I'm starting to think maybe I should start a thread devoted to calming everyone's fears about the hollywood involvement.

What did Toho do to G-Fan magazine?

[Thunder Angel]

I don't think Legendary Pictures should do a Godzilla 'Verses' movie. If they're doing a reboot, they should go back to the best of the Godzilla films for inspiration - the Original. It doesn't have to be allegorical like the original, but it would be a lot better in my opinion to focus on the human toll like the original did rather than having a giant monster brawl-fest. They could do a lot better than Abram's Cloverfield if they take the film seriously. The rebooted Batman films proved the company's ability to do justice to a butchered franchise. They actually made Batman cool again by giving him a great deal of character depth. If they do the same with Godzilla, they'll have a real winner on their hands.

What I do not want to see is another 1998 attempt at making the monster an innocent nuisance, or another version of Toho's spiritual manifestation creatures. I would prefer the monster to be genuinely malicious and virtually indestructible like the original. I don't want another Jurassic Park on steroids - Godzilla should not be controlled and/or threatened by humans. And, I don't want Eastern psudo-mysticism to spoil it either.

[KaijuKing]

Originally posted by Thunder Angel:
What I do not want to see is another 1998 attempt at making the monster an innocent nuisance, or another version of Toho's spiritual manifestation creatures. I would prefer the monster to be genuinely malicious and virtually indestructible like the original.


I agree that Godzilla shouldn't be innocent or mystical, but malicious...I don't know. He should certainly be aggressive and destructive, but in a more animalistic kind of way, like Heisei Goji. He has no problem killing people or tearing up cities, but it's not personal. He shouldn't be outright evil. That should be saved for the villains.

[Godzillakamper]

I say let's get a new monster in this movie. I mean why not a new Godzilla with a new way of making Godzilla (CGI) why not throw in a new monster? Personaly I wouldn't mind seeing an old monster come back but I'd rather see something other than the norm (Ghidorah,Mechagodzilla,Mothra, etc.) This movie in my opinion should be the new begining for Godzilla so let's get a new monster.

[DinoGeekProductions]

Everyone keeps saying that the focus needs to be on Godzilla, but why can't a second monster be used to build up on Godzilla's character? Godzilla fights other creatures, that's what he does. And having Godzilla destroy another monster in seconds that the military couldn't could work. Plus it better demonstrates Godzilla as a fighter than if he just fought the military.

And, as I said in the other forum thread, everyone keeps saying people need to get used to Godzilla, yet, most everyone would just see Godzilla on a solo run as being boring. People don't need to get used to the idea of Godzilla, they need to get used to two monsters battling each other staged in a smart fashion. The people already know all about Godzilla, that he's big and destroys buildings. They got the same thing from Cloverfield and G98.

[Excelsior]

I'm sure this has been answered before, but...

Does Legendary have the rights to any other Toho kaiju in association with this picture?

[Kaiju_Sensai]

Well I believe when getting the rights to Godzilla they also get the rights to any of the other creatures excluding the Big 5. At least I think thats what happened with the Dark Horses Godzilla comics. Basically any monster that Toho can't make much money off of selling the rights to individually. As you know they'd have to shell out way to much money for Mothra, Rodan, or Ghidorah. Personally I'd like to see Anguirus.

[Zigra]

Well I believe when getting the rights to Godzilla they also get the rights to any of the other creatures excluding the Big 5. At least I think thats what happened with the Dark Horses Godzilla comics. Basically any monster that Toho can't make much money off of selling the rights to individually. As you know they'd have to shell out way to much money for Mothra, Rodan, or Ghidorah. Personally I'd like to see Anguirus.

Somebody who knows better can correct me if they like, but I believe Toho has relaxed on this. Remember that they gave Random House the rights to Ghidorah, Rodan, and Mothra.