Kong and Godzilla: that final battle [Archive]

kpa

December 20th, 2003, 04:25 AM

Toho used to publish an English language book every year that covered all the movies they'd made over the previous twelve months. These were done to help sell their films around the world. Each film has photos, a basic cast/crew list, and a summary of the plot.

I have a copy of TOHO FILMS VOL 8, which covers all the movies from 1962. Here's the description from the plot description for KING KONG VS GODZILLA:

"A spectacular duel is arranged on the summit of Mt Fuji, and King Kong is victorious."

That's what Toho had to say on the subject at the time the movie was made. The US rights were held by John Beck before the movie was released so this was not Toho saying Kong won just to try and sell it in America; they had no part and saw no profit from US sales of the movie.

I've seen so many explanations by fans trying to say Kong lost, the latest being Kong starts swimming away after
hearing Godzilla's roar (which is not true) but Toho said what happened more than 40 years ago. I'll take their word for it since they made the movie.

December 20th, 2003, 11:33 AM

I did'nt here anything, but the film is a masterpeice.

The Great MM

December 27th, 2003, 10:45 PM

In the movie King Kong vs Godzilla, when Godzilla just came out of the ice berg, Dr. what's his name, says "The world is stunned of that seeing prehistoric animals still excist today." This makes me also think it is stand alone, and it not once mentions G:KOTM or GRA. So maybe every movie after KK vs G was to be the continuation after GRA, and KK vs G is a stand alone, the first.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif vs http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif

Mothraleo

December 28th, 2003, 12:33 AM

No. It makes perfict sence for it to continue. Godzilla is mentioned alot in Godzilla Raids Again, and the end of Godzilla raids again Godzilla is buried under and ice burg. If any thing stupid american dubbers( mabey stupid japanese dubbers) are to blame.  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

juan

December 28th, 2003, 01:30 AM

No Monster Master, I think that "mabey" american dubbers are to blame.

In the American version of Kong vs Godzilla, it is treated as if Godzilla had apeared for the very first time. The line you mentioned comes from Eric Carter, a character which had been inserted into the American version by means of additional footage, much as Raymond Burr's Steven Martin had been.
  This change to history was probably meant to heighten the drama in Kong and Godzilla's fight. The paleontologist, Dr. Johnson, is heard on Mr. Tako's radio saying that a battle of the giants that may or may not have happened millions of years ago would be reenacted on the Nasu Plain as Mr Tako goes to see the first battle.
  The whole movie was about the clash of the titans and the American version sought to further the idea of Kong and Godzilla being arch-rivals. It seems that the dubbers thought to do so by making it seem as if Kong and Godzilla existed only to fight each other.
  While the thought that they had always been enemies makes it more interesting, it wreaks havoc on continuity by ignoring earlier films. Worse yet, the alteration wasn't done perfectly. When Godzilla first emerges from the iceburg, the pilot who sees him says "Godzilla!"
  In the original version, this would make sense. Godzilla (or Gigantis as he was renamed in the dub) had menaced Osaka before being entombed in the ice in Godzilla Raids Again (or Gigantis the Fire Monster). When he escapes the pilot would of course react in fear on seeing him free.
  But this is rather perplexing in the dubb because if Godzilla had never been seen before, then why is it that the pilot knew what to call the monster emerging from the ice?
  Considering that mix up, its best to ignore the faulty continuity alterations and not consider the American versions of post-Kong-vs-Godzilla Godzilla films as having their own timeline.

Mothraleo

December 28th, 2003, 12:20 PM

The idea of it being stand alone is kinda cool. Although it does contunue that showa series.

Emperor Violenjiger

December 28th, 2003, 03:59 PM

King Kong vs. Godzilla (1962) is not a stand alone film. The iceburg that Godzilla was buried in, is the same one that he got trapped in at the end of Gigantis the Fire Monster (1955). And originally in Godzilla vs. the Thing (1964) Godzilla was supposed to have washed up on shore, all beat up from his battle with Kong (but was replaced with Mothra's egg washing up instead).

Alien-G

December 29th, 2003, 12:20 AM

in another forum on this website, the Japanese version explains on how Godzilla was trapped in the iceburg, all those American scenes were added in, similar to Gammera The Invincible, GKOTM, and Godzilla 1984

baragon2005

December 29th, 2003, 07:52 AM

Quote[/b] (Alien-G @ Dec. 29 2003,00:20)]in another forum on this website, the Japanese version explains on how Godzilla was trapped in the iceburg, all those American scenes were added in, similar to Gammera The Invincible, GKOTM, and Godzilla 1984
No, they don't explain. It just... happens. I've seen both versions, so I know. But yes, American scenes were added.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baragonsmilie.gif

SuperXAsh

January 12th, 2004, 03:37 PM

Yes, and everytime it seems to bring in the same people who always have to set the record straight, like me, Saruman, Obi-juan, and many others... it gets dull quickly.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

Emperor Violenjiger

January 12th, 2004, 04:22 PM

Quote[/b] (Daikaijuking @ Dec. 19 2003,19:21)]hey Monster Master Said that in the original King Kong vs. Godzilla that after you hear KK roar you hear G roar and king kong starts swimming away. Is this true? Because if it is then well this is proof that Godzilla won because KK ran from the fight.
Wrong! Originally in Godzilla Vs. The Thing (1964), Godzilla was supposed to wash up on shore, near dead and baddly injured from his battle with King Kong...

So, even though they replaced Godzlla in the film, with Mothra's egg washing up instead, it's still proves that Godzilla lost...

professorkaiju

January 13th, 2004, 01:17 PM

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif
Did King Kong truly beat Godzilla? I don't think so. In Godzilla vs. The Sea Monster, and Godzilla vs. Monster Zero, Godzilla was drug under water by another monster and still came out victorious. So, why should it be different for King Kong? When King Kong surfaced it looked as if King Kong won. However, it is said that Godzilla is equally strong under water, if not stronger.
     Please respond to my unique theory.

Mothraleo

January 13th, 2004, 04:37 PM

Quote[/b] (professorkaiju @ Jan. 13 2004,14:17)]http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif
Did King Kong truly beat Godzilla? I don't think so. In Godzilla vs. The Sea Monster, and Godzilla vs. Monster Zero, Godzilla was drug under water by another monster and still came out victorious. So, why should it be different for King Kong? When King Kong surfaced it looked as if King Kong won. However, it is said that Godzilla is equally strong under water, if not stronger.
* * *Please respond to my unique theory.
How do you know KK didn't smash godzilla in the skull, nocking him unconsious. As well, how did Godzilla's body get washed in with the storm?

January 13th, 2004, 06:06 PM

First Godzilla has the upper hand in the film, then at the end Kong gets the upper hand.

In the end, they both fall into the ocean, resulting in no clear cut winner.

The battle is a draw.

January 13th, 2004, 06:10 PM

I highly recomend anyone who has only seen the horrible english version of KKvsG, to get the japanese version RIGHT AWAY.

If you havint seen the japanese version, you havint seen the film period.

Mothraleo

January 13th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Quote[/b] (Star Hunter @ Jan. 13 2004,19:06)]First Godzilla has the upper hand in the film, then at the end Kong gets the upper hand.

In the end, they both fall into the ocean, resulting in no clear cut winner.

The battle is a draw.
Well, how does Godzilla get burried then? And don't say he swam in with the storm, other of wise he would have wooken up right away.

January 14th, 2004, 12:29 PM

Well, that was the next film, not King Kong vs Godzilla. Im going by the out come of there battle in KKvsG, which showed no clear cut winner.

Now in the next film, Mothra vs Godzilla, he was under the ground for many reasons, some of which can be debated. He was washed up and buried from the typhoon earlier in the film, maybe he burrowd under the ground? Maybe toho doesint care much for contiunity?

Saruman

January 14th, 2004, 01:00 PM

Just to point it out again, here is what kpa posted earlier in the thread incase anyone missed it.

Quote[/b] ]Toho used to publish an English language book every year that covered all the movies they'd made over the previous twelve months. These were done to help sell their films around the world. Each film has photos, a basic cast/crew list, and a summary of the plot.

I have a copy of TOHO FILMS VOL 8, which covers all the movies from 1962. Here's the description from the plot description for KING KONG VS GODZILLA:

"A spectacular duel is arranged on the summit of Mt Fuji, and King Kong is victorious."

That's what Toho had to say on the subject at the time the movie was made. The US rights were held by John Beck before the movie was released so this was not Toho saying Kong won just to try and sell it in America; they had no part and saw no profit from US sales of the movie.

That pretty much answers the question of who won quite nicely.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

SuperXAsh

January 14th, 2004, 02:10 PM

and it's doubtful that Ebirah could match the strength of Kong... specially a suped up Kong.

BUT it's still VERY doubtful any of this will matter, we'll probably be doing this again next week or next month when someone comes in and starts debating on the ending again. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

Mothraleo

January 14th, 2004, 04:13 PM

Quote[/b] (Star Hunter @ Jan. 14 2004,16:51)]Basicly, at the time, Toho was being nice to americans saying Kong won.

When you watch the film however, especially the japanese version, it tells a very different stroy.
Why do you not like King Kong? And in what other ways could Godzilla have gotten under the ground.

Raptor

February 15th, 2004, 03:35 AM

Here's what Sean over at Creaturescape figures:

"Some of this is speculation on my part but there are some factors that explain the Alternate Ending myth:  
First, there were scenes added and deleted for the American audience. The American release WAS different but the ending was not. Making the next jump is not that great and is easy to believe.
Secondly, Toho became increasingly more agressive in pursuing American audiences and while the Japanese have almost as long a fascination with Kong as we do, this was seen as a 'natural' for the overseas market. And if you are pandering to Americans . . . again, it makes it more believable.
However, the real kicker is this:
In the original Japanese version after KK and G fall into the sea, Godzilla gets off a roar as KK swims off. The implication is that KK is not swimming away victorious - just swimming away. In the original American release, that roar was edited out.  And while the battle results are a tie, Godzilla is a sea creature and Kong has to get back to land."

juan

April 28th, 2004, 06:08 PM

While going through the web I found this. IMDB has a list of trivia and alternate version of Kong vs Godzilla. Check here (http://imdb.com/title/tt0056142/trivia) and here (http://imdb.com/title/tt0056142/alternateversions).
 Hope you like!

Solar_Behemoth

April 28th, 2004, 11:12 PM

There is trivia for almost every G-film on that website. Imdb.com is the Internet Movie Data Base you know.

juan

May 1st, 2004, 12:26 AM

Really? I didn't know that. Just found the palce when I heard of lost footage from King Kong 70s.

MirrenDono

May 1st, 2004, 07:44 AM

Dude that's sweet!!! ^_^

I still kinda believed the fight ended in a tie...

That poor octopus...

XD

Kaiju Nexus

May 1st, 2004, 10:03 AM

VERY interesting stuff!  I knew most of it already, but what was new to me was very intriguing.

juan

May 6th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Debating Kong vs. Godzilla

In discussing the film “King Kong vs. Godzilla,” Toho Kingdom closed its review calling the final battle one of the greatest, and the most controversial, in the history of kaiju eiga. Indeed.

Hello everyone, Obi-Juan here. I’m making this post to ask a question of all you. Most of all us have seen the film “King Kong vs. Godzilla.” Most all of us have also debated the outcome of the end of the fight; that is the reason this post is made. In fact, the majority of Godzilla enthusiasts very much dislike it. If you dislike the final outcome of “Kong vs. Godzilla,” why is that so?

Is it because:

• You bet money on Godzilla and you have to pay it back? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif  Just kidding, that was more of a joke than anything else! Have to admit though, the King of the Monsters was the odds on favorite…

• You like Godzilla more? There’s no shame in that. After all, nobody likes seeing his favorite guy lose.

• Logically speaking, Godzilla should have won? Godzilla clearly won the first match and he dominated the second match. It was only after lightning revived Kong that he was able to win and even then by the narrowest of margins. A friend of mine, Nox, said, “I know that want to thank him for being the original guy, but look at! Godzilla’s fought guys like King Ghidorah and Destroyer and we’re supposed to believe that he’s going to lose to some monkey?” In that vein comes the next question.

• Kong got lucky? It was awfully convenient that the lightning was there to revive Kong.

• You feel that Godzilla really won. An issue of G-Fan judged the match by awarding points and says that, yes, Godzilla indeed won. This leads to the next one…

• You don’t believe that Kong won at all. According to kpa a book released by Toho stated that Kong won the battle. Now that seems awfully arbitrary. Even with Toho’s claim, the final fight between Kong and Godzilla seems almost to close to call. The two monsters are seen fighting with mindless ferocity and fall off a cliff. Its quiet; Kong gets up from the water and walks away. True, the American version Kong seemingly roars in triumph as he walks away suggesting that he won. However, that was only in the American version; from what I have heard the original Japanese version has both Kong and Godzilla roar to indicate that both are still there.

• Its Kong we’re talking about? This may just be why we don’t like it. Kong is not just another monster; he is one of the most well known and respected monsters of all. Even people who’ve never seen a monster movie know who Kong is and the story to boot. This means that the fight isn’t just another fight. The whole film was intended to be about “the two mightiest monsters of all times.” To see Godzilla lose this fight of all fights would seem to indicate that Kong is better than Godzilla. (I have always had a similar feeling towards the 90s Gamera films and for a similar reason—dislike, and worse, because it threatens Godzilla legitimacy.) This match was to show who is the King of the Monsters and, from a modern perspective, it feels wrong that Godzilla lose a match where his title was on the line.

• Another reason?

So assuming that you dislike the outcome of Kong and Godzilla’s battle, why is that so? This is admittedly a highly controversial topic but if you have anything to say, leave it here. I request that thoSe people who eXpress a certain Anguish over this try to be civil in their posts. I would like to see why this match is as controversial as it is without posters afraid of criticism. However, as for those who have something to say here please remain in control and write in a responsible manner. Otherwise, you will prove thoSe people who eXpress Anguish at this discussion right.

So what do you have to say?

Mothraleo

May 6th, 2004, 05:19 PM

Well, I think Kong got lucky. Godzilla had Kong down for the count, but the storm gave Kong the boost he need to win.

GBandit

May 6th, 2004, 05:42 PM

Yes Kong got a boost from the storm, but he waaaaas outsmarting him well before, like luring him into a trap and so on.
Kong is also stronger than Godzilla, after the lightning it was all downhill for Godzilla...literally, he ran down the hill from Kong after bieng swung to high Heavens, then hid behind the building as Kong and He ripped through it then Kong Ape Tackled him over the cliff. not to mention the scene where Kong sits on Godzilla's chest and pounds him into oblivion, while G screeches in pain.

All I'm saying is it was a 2 sided fight, both legitimant monsters. Its not like Godzilla could have just destroyed him off the bat, if so why didnt he.

Kong is a tough mother *&^%$%^, and he showed us all that in that movie, it wasnt just Godzilla beating him the whole time.
I personnally think people just dont like him like they dont like GINO.

Mothraleo

May 6th, 2004, 08:24 PM

I would like you to prove kong is stronger than Godzilla. And do not go into "Kong can smash mountains", becaue Godzilla can melt tanks http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

GBandit

May 6th, 2004, 09:02 PM

lets see Kong swung Godzilla around, I never seen Godzilla lift Kong

and melting tanks has nothing to do with physical strength

kent

May 6th, 2004, 10:25 PM

Quote[/b] ]lets see Kong swung Godzilla around, I never seen Godzilla lift Kong

He lifted Godzilla after the lightning had struck him; which gave him more physical strength. Plus the lightning was striking him AS he was swinging Godzilla around.

Back on topic, to be very honest, I do like Godzilla more than I do Kong. But I don't hate Kong. The thing is, yes Kong was intended to be the victor, but Toho made an ending to where fans of both monsters could debate the issue for years to come.
Godzilla did have Kong's butt on the ropes. Although you gotta hand it to Kong that, even though he was outclassed most of the time and had to battle against Godzilla's ray, he kept fighting on. But I personally do think Kong did get lucky with that storm. He was beaten shortly before that storm arrived. And, unlike the first encounter between the titans, Godzilla handed him his butt in HTH.
I was rooting for Godzilla in the film, even though I knew Kong was going to be declared the victor, because, like most Godzilla films, the monster that wins has their name before the Vs. Same thing in Mothra Vs. Godzilla. Godzilla defeated the adult form, but "lost" to the larvae in a cheap way.
So in the end, it was luck that made Kong the "winner" if you go by what the movie is supposedly showing us at the end. But in the end, Godzilla had it won. He outclassed Kong in every aspect of the two battles until the storm came along. Even with the storm, Godzilla didn't back down and still was fighting Kong very well.

kpa

May 6th, 2004, 11:04 PM

Quote[/b] (obi-juan82 @ May 06 2004,14:17)]You don’t believe that Kong won at all. According to kpa a book released by Toho stated that Kong won the battle. Now that seems awfully arbitrary.
It's not arbitrary in the slightest.

Quote[/b] ]Even with Toho’s claim, the final fight between Kong and Godzilla seems almost to close to call.

Even with Toho’s claim? I'd say the people who made the movie have a better idea of what they intended than fans on another continent 40 years after the fact would.

Quote[/b] ]True, the American version Kong seemingly roars in triumph as he walks away suggesting that he won. However, that was only in the American version; from what I have heard the original Japanese version has both Kong and Godzilla roar to indicate that both are still there.

The roars at the end were symbolic, not actually happening onscreen at that time. This was done in several kaiju films as a way of 'signing off'.

Quote[/b] ]This match was to show who is the King of the Monsters and, from a modern perspective, it feels wrong that Godzilla lose a match where his title was on the line.

That's where fans go wrong-- it should be looked at as "what did the filmmakers intend?" not "in retrospect what should have happened?". When KKvsG was made Kong had been an international legend for 30 years and Godzilla was the 7 year-old newbie. His later battles with King Ghidorah, Mechagodzilla, Destoroyah, etc had no part in the outcome of KKvsG because they hadn't happened yet and were not in the filmmakers' thoughts.

Kong won the final battle and it was not some arbitrary decision. Godzilla fans should understand that:

1. At that time Kong was the more famous and popular of the two monsters.
2. KING KONG was one of the major inspirations behind GODZILLA. When Tomoyuki Tanaka (the man who created Godzilla) pitched the first movie to Toho he said he wanted to make a movie about “A monster that invades Tokyo the way King Kong attacked New York”. Where do you guys think the 'gorilla' half of the name Gojira comes from?

FX director Eiji Tsuburaya LOVED King Kong-- it was one of the things that inspired him to become a filmmaker. He always dreamed of working with the character and creating his own monster that would be just as popular. He suceeded on both counts.
3. KKvsG did not start at Toho; it was originally planned in America as KING KONG vs FRANKENSTEIN in 1960. Two years later Godzilla was a late substitute as an opponent for Kong.
4. Toho was not working alone here;American producer John Beck brought the concept to Toho and had a stake in the movie. Toho went in knowing this was a Kong picture.
5. Toho had to get permission from, and pay a lot of money to, RKO Pictures for the rights to use Kong.
6. At that time, Toho had no plans to bring back Godzilla-- they were just going to keep making new monster movies like RODAN, VARAN, and MOTHRA. When Kong was offered to them they saw this as the perfect opportunity to bring back their first monster and make him an international superstar. It worked.
7. As I said before Kong was a legend for 30 years and Toho was THRILLED to have their own monster share the screen with him.
8. Kong is the hero, Godzilla is the villain. Both monsters cause death and destruction but Godzilla goes to Japan of his own choice while Kong is kidnapped. As soon as Godzilla is defeated Kong swims back to his island home.

So what did Toho intend in 1962? An American producer gave them the chance to work with the legendary character who inspired their own profitable monster movies, and they were so excited that they paid a huge sum of money to use him and gave away most foreign rights to the film (more or less) forever. After all that would they have him lose in the end?

In late 1962 or early 1963 Toho published the following answer to that question:

http://monsters4u.com/kedzuel/TohoFilms1963-06KingKongVSGodzilla.jpg

Fans can debate this 'til they're blue in the face, but Toho said Kong won 40 years ago. It's a done deal and has been for decades. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Alien-G

May 7th, 2004, 12:29 AM

Nothing there says that Kong won, besides that. If it was to be a fight to the death, it was a tie. If it wasn't, then Kong won. Now here's something. If Godzilla hadn't lost, he would've continued fighting Kong. But since Godzilla was zapped up by electricity, he must've been shocked under the water. I am a huge fan of Godzilla, have been since I was four, but I think that Kong won. Godzilla would've kept fighting if he wasn't beaten.

Alien-G

May 7th, 2004, 12:31 AM

oops, sorry kpa, I didn't get a look at the very last part. Where did you get that book, what's it called? Could I get it off Amazon?

Kappa the water imp

May 7th, 2004, 03:43 AM

Kong swam away from Godzilla so Godzilla wins.

kpa

May 7th, 2004, 04:36 AM

Quote[/b] (Alien-G @ May 06 2004,21:31)]oops, sorry kpa, I didn't get a look at the very last part.
No problem. I was confused by your last post, so thanks for clearing that up.

Quote[/b] ]Where did you get that book, what's it called?

it's called "Toho Films". It's one volume in a series of international sales books that Toho published from when they started selling their films overseas (around 1954) until at least the late 1960s. The books are amazing-- look at the KKvsG entry then imagine that for dozens of movies (scifi,horror, musical, comedy, action, drama, samurai) Toho made each year. http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/exclamation.gif

Quote[/b] ]Could I get it off Amazon?

No.

kpa

May 7th, 2004, 04:37 AM

Quote[/b] (Kappa the water imp @ May 07 2004,00:43)]Kong swam away from Godzilla so Godzilla wins.
Not according to Toho...

By your definition, Godzilla was the winner at the end GODZILLA VS THE THING too.  http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

GBandit

May 7th, 2004, 08:53 AM

Kong wins TOHO said so,,, hahahah yippeeee, I told ya so. suckers!!!!

kent

May 7th, 2004, 11:08 AM

^ That was somewhat unnecessary.

I can't remember what thread it was on here, but someone said that Toho said so on a certain ability a kaiju was able to do. And one member said, "If Toho said to jump off a bridge, would you?" Problem is, Toho does say certain things about their kaiju or kaiju films, but it is never really portrayed the way they say it is 100%. They either make it controversial (like this film), or their films say something else from what they said. While I would trust Toho's info. than anyone elses anyday, I wouldn't believe it 100% because their films tend to sometimes say otherwise. The thing was, is that yes, Kong was supposed to win. Plain and simple. The problem is, though, they didn't make it an outright win in the film. As I said in my earlier post, there's enough info. in that last minute or so of film for both sides to heavily debate on who won. While Kong is said to be the winner, it can be easily said that Godzilla, without Kong's electrical ability, handed Kong his butt big time. Toho had to give Kong the ability to become stronger when he comes in contact with electricity, because they knew he had absolutely no chance to beat Godzilla by being regular King Kong. He wasn't given the ability in King Kong Escapes, nor any other films he has been in in many years after this film.
While Kong is the winner, it isn't clearly portrayed and both sides can give good arguments as to how and why their monster won. It wasn't the regular King Kong that defeated Godzilla, it was Electrical Arms King Kong.

Baran-no-goji

May 7th, 2004, 11:12 AM

Toho went on record saying the fight was a DRAW. We both hear their roars before the final fade-out...at least in the Japanese version.

kpa

May 7th, 2004, 05:08 PM

Quote[/b] (kent @ May 07 2004,08:08)]I can't remember what thread it was on here, but someone said that Toho said so on a certain ability a kaiju was able to do. And one member said, "If Toho said to jump off a bridge, would you?"
Whoever said that made an amazingly lame argument. There's a BIG difference from Toho giving the official word on a project they made and own and telling someone to physicallu harm themselves. *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif

Quote[/b] ]While Kong is said to be the winner, it can be easily said that Godzilla, without Kong's electrical ability, handed Kong his butt big time. Toho had to give Kong the ability to become stronger when he comes in contact with electricity, because they knew he had absolutely no chance to beat Godzilla by being regular King Kong.

And Godzilla turned into a magnet to beat Mechagodzilla, and flew to stop Hedorah, was revived by Rodan to fight MG, etc. The original Mothra was reduced in size and dying before she fought Godzilla in 1964. I never hear fans claiming Godzilla lost those fights... bit of a double standard there.

kpa

May 7th, 2004, 05:14 PM

Quote[/b] (Baran-no-goji @ May 07 2004,08:12)]Toho went on record saying the fight was a DRAW. We both hear their roars before the final fade-out...at least in the Japanese version.
At the time the film was made Toho clearly said Kong won. In the late 1990s Toho's website listed as a draw after KKvsG producers John Beck and Tomoyuki Tanaka, director Ishiro Honda, fx director Eiji Tsuburaya, screenwriter Shinichi Sekizawa--all the people who were in charge of deciding what happened in the movie-- were dead.

I'll go with what the filmmakers intended over a revisionist claim made 30+ years later by someone who didn't even work on the movie.

Baryonyx13

May 7th, 2004, 05:32 PM

Quote[/b] (kpa @ May 07 2004,16:08)]And Godzilla turned into a magnet to beat Mechagodzilla, and flew to stop Hedorah, was revived by Rodan to fight MG, etc. The original Mothra was reduced in size and dying before she fought Godzilla in 1964. I never hear fans claiming Godzilla lost those fights... bit of a double standard there.
I admit it. Godzilla should have lost and would have without outside help and new powers.

Now we can all admit Kong should have lost, and by luck won. Kong got both outside help AND new powers in this movie.

Not pickin on Kong, like I said, Godzilla pulled cheap stuff too.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biollantesmilie.gif

Saruman

May 7th, 2004, 08:28 PM

Quote[/b] (kpa @ May 07 2004,17:08)]Quote[/b] (kent @ May 07 2004,08:08)]I can't remember what thread it was on here, but someone said that Toho said so on a certain ability a kaiju was able to do. And one member said, "If Toho said to jump off a bridge, would you?"
Whoever said that made an amazingly lame argument. There's a BIG difference from Toho giving the official word on a project they made and own and telling someone to physicallu harm themselves. *http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif
I believe Kent is trying to refer to something I had said Keith, which doesnt even apply to this discussion, so its a completely moot point.

But basically what I was saying is that if something happens in the film that absolutely counters what Toho says, then you have to go with the film as that is the highest form of cannon. An example being, if Toho said Godzillas beam was pink but in the film its actually blue, then that absolutely counters what Toho claims and the beam is infact blue, the film is still the highest form of cannon.

In this case that cannot be applied. There is no proof on Godzillas side that he won or even ended the fight in a draw. Nobody can prove either of those outcomes. The film shows Kong as the victor. Everyone important person associated with the film has said Kong was the winner. Toho has said that Kong was the winner. The abundance of evidence is on Kongs side and supports him.

Until someone can come up with a reasonable answer for Godzilla winning, that doesnt have something to the effect of "Godzilla was just staying under the water and Kong was swimming away from him" then Kong is the clear victor of this fight.

Solar_Behemoth

May 7th, 2004, 09:43 PM

Not to sound all cruel and mean but.....

This whole argument is hilarious!
I love watching people who can't stand the fact that Godzilla lost just this once coming up with goofy explanations on how Kong lost.
Kong won.
Remember the guy at the end that said "No Godzilla." ? Kong won because of his wacky electricity-makes-him-more-strong factor, but he won. Period.

kent

May 8th, 2004, 10:23 PM

Quote[/b] ]Until someone can come up with a reasonable answer for Godzilla winning, that doesnt have something to the effect of "Godzilla was just staying under the water and Kong was swimming away from him" then Kong is the clear victor of this fight.

But that is a logistic answer. I'm not saying Godzilla flat out won or anything, but they battled under the water for about a minute or two until we see Kong swimming away. We don't know what happened underneath the water. So one cannnot not assume that they landed in the ocean and Kong swam away victorious. Both sides need to keep an open mind on this that either one did something to affect the outcome. Although it isn't stated in the film nor anywhere else.

Quote[/b] ]Remember the guy at the end that said "No Godzilla." ?

Godzilla and Rodan didn't surface from the water in Monster Zero. Does that mean Godzilla or Rodan were defeated? I dunno. Did that mean Ghidorah fleed over the might of the two kaiju? I dunno. That ending is also debatable.

Saruman

May 8th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Quote[/b] (kent @ May 08 2004,22:23)]But that is a logistic answer. I'm not saying Godzilla flat out won or anything, but they battled under the water for about a minute or two until we see Kong swimming away. We don't know what happened underneath the water. So one cannnot not assume that they landed in the ocean and Kong swam away victorious. Both sides need to keep an open mind on this that either one did something to affect the outcome. Although it isn't stated in the film nor anywhere else.
Have you ever jumped into water from any really good height, like say off a 5 meter diving platform? It takes you time just to come back up, you don’t just reappear on the surface. Then when you factor in that the two Kaiju were tangled at the time, Kong really didn’t take all that long to resurface and not an amount of time that would make it seem overly long.

The thing that your missing is that we don’t have to prove Kong won. Its been stated numerous times by the people that made the movie. It was the intent for Kong to win from the start. The movie itself supports it with visual evidence as well.

If you want to say that Kong didn’t win or that it was a draw. Then you need something to support your claim. The burden of proof is upon you to produce that and some theory just doesn’t cut it. You have to have something tangible that supports your claim and I haven't seen anything like that yet.

kent

May 9th, 2004, 01:14 AM

Quote[/b] ]The thing that your missing is that we don’t have to prove Kong won. Its been stated numerous times by the people that made the movie. It was the intent for Kong to win from the start. The movie itself supports it with visual evidence as well.

Yes I know the film was intended for Kong to win and I do recognize him as that because the film is entitled King Kong Vs. Godzilla. Not Godzilla Vs. King Kong. Plus Toho said he won.
The thing is though Saruman, and I'm not trying to be mean or insult you or anything, but what evidence in the film is there to support Kong is the winner. From what I am seeing, there is enough evidence in the film to support that either could have won. I will state a few instances for both here:

Kong Wins:

- Walks away looking like a victor and roars at the end (American version with the roar)
- Human characters favor Kong
- Kong delivers a KO punch while the two are underwater and proceeds to go home

Godzilla Wins:

- Godzilla dominates most of the battle even when Kong is powered up.
- When the two landed, Kong immediately saw an opportunity to escape knowing his abilities were to wear off and that he would be back to phase 1 when battling Godzilla.
- Godzilla delivers a KO punch while the two are underwater and Kong proceeds to go home

While I do recognize Kong as the victor, to me, it still seems too, too close to call. There are so many different instances in the final battle that point to either monster winning which makes it very close for me to Kong is the absolute victor or Godzilla as the victor. In the end, for me at least, it's just too close to call (to reinstate the sentence again, I do recognize Kong as the victor just mainly because Toho intended it to be that way).

Kappa the water imp

May 9th, 2004, 03:53 AM

It's a good ending to keep us guessing so we can decied who wins, why did'nt toho just show Kong win, instead of saying afterwards save alot of trouble.

Godzilla guy

May 9th, 2004, 01:25 PM

Kong did win in the end. I recall the man saying "Kong is safely swimming away, no sign of Godzilla" So, obviously Kong was meant to win. If it was fair or not is another matter though. Without the lightning Kong would never of won. Godzilla was obviously the more stronger of the two but if Godzilla would of won wouldn't that just...not be right? Toho had asked and paid for Kong and it would seem unfair to the people they got him from if they just killed him off.

Saruman

May 9th, 2004, 02:02 PM

Quote[/b] (Kappa the water imp @ May 09 2004,03:53)]It's a good ending to keep us guessing so we can decied who wins, why did'nt toho just show Kong win, instead of saying afterwards save alot of trouble.
Would you want to show your primary star losing right on screen? I'm sure that would have done wonders for Godzilla. Its a simple way to show Kong win without damaging Godzilla as a character.

Dino Hunter 2.0

May 9th, 2004, 06:28 PM

As much as I hate to say it, "Kong" won. There was no logic in it at all (Hit by lightning and becoming strong? Well, atleast he didn't become a magnet...) and I think it's obvious that had that silly lightning thing never happened, Godzilla would have won. Kong may be able to punch and kick and set traps, but Godzilla can take alot more damage, has his tail whipping, is obviously strong (We've all seen him grabbing monsters by the tail, lifting them up and repeatedly slamming them down.) and has the gigantic advantage of his fiery breath weapon... but despite that, Toho's "giant run-over sasquatch" King Kong did win.

GBandit

May 9th, 2004, 11:11 PM

what if Godzilla wasnt mutated to have fire breath?
you cant say Kong got lucky with the electricity.
check this out

KK vs G info (http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/godzilla.htm)

kent

May 10th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Godzilla still would have beat him. He didn't use his flame that often during the fight. The final fight is a great example of that. After he blasted Kong twice at the begninning of the fight, it was HTH from then on out. Godzilla had Kong beat until the storm came along.

Saruman

May 10th, 2004, 01:04 AM

Quote[/b] (kent @ May 10 2004,00:45)]Godzilla still would have beat him. He didn't use his flame that often during the fight. The final fight is a great example of that. After he blasted Kong twice at the begninning of the fight, it was HTH from then on out. Godzilla had Kong beat until the storm came along.
That’s like a guy with a gun firing two shots at you and just missing you. Then he decides to fight you differently and not use his gun. It doesn’t matter that he’s not using it because it’s already in the back of your mind that he can use it. It puts you at a disadvantage because you always have to be wary of it being used.

Of course you then have people complaining that Kong got a new power in his electrical abilities in this film. Which is a pretty lame argument as this is the first TOHO Kong film. They established early in the film that Kong gets stronger from electricity, so it’s not like its some big suprise that it happens.

Godzilla has his breath and Kong has his electrical powers. I think that makes them pretty even in that regard.

Alien-G

May 11th, 2004, 10:36 PM

This is an overused argument, doesn't matter what someone thinks, let other people think Godzilla won, it's their opinion.

Mothraleo

May 11th, 2004, 10:44 PM

Then how did Godzilla end up underground in Godzilla vs. Mothra? Even if I don't like KK that much, I always could admit he won there battle. Godzilla went underwater, and was knocked out, making him the loser. Then, his body was washed under the ground.

btw: Edit buttons are back http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (for now that is http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif )

SuperXAsh

May 11th, 2004, 11:43 PM

God... it's back... again.  http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

To those who constantly clamor over the Big G's supposed win and supremacy: Ever hear of the word "Underdog"?

It's a movie favorite, specially in the land of the rising sun. The hero is getting the #### kicked out of him by an obviously more powerful opponent or at least in this case, with more abilities (a long range attack) at his disposal.

When the hero's on the ropes, looks like it's going to be the end, boom... the hero comes back from certain doom with renewed vigor, more power and wins the day.

Classic movie formula.

Get it through your thick as lead skulls... Kong won. sorry... but he did. All the evidence, all the stuff that went on before hand with those in charge of the picture, all sorts of stuff to prove that Kong won out in the end.

The Nay Sayers only bit of proof? "Godzilla was chilling underwater and Kong was running away" or some kind of version of that BS reason.

What strikes me as INSANELY ODD... is that you never hear this #### when it comes to Godzilla's other losses, and/or when a fan favorite villain monster gets beat after Godzilla gets some kind of new power or renewed strength.

It's only when it happens with Kong vs Godzilla. ALWAYS!!!

Obi-juan... I think you should add this to your list of people's reasonings for their dislike over the end:

-The first time you ever saw Godzilla lose before in a movie.

This HAS to be the biggest reason. People who were used to seeing Godzilla win through out their childhood or when they were first watching Godzilla... and expecting similar results with this match-up... only to have it not go the way they expected. It has to be true... cause if it were the other way around with Godzilla vs. Mothra... people'd be ragging on the moth more than the ape. They knew who Kong was, and they obviously knew who Godzilla was, cause they were huge fans... but they thought that "Godzilla always wins", so they pop this movie into their VHS player and get one major upset in their eyes.

I know this... cause I used to be like that. Thank god I got over it.

Thank god I also like all three of these monsters, or I'd be just like some of these people. *scarey thought*

http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif  http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif  http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kingkongsmilie.gif

kent

May 12th, 2004, 12:28 AM

Quote[/b] ]Then how did Godzilla end up underground in Godzilla vs. Mothra?

The hurricane threw him ashore and buried him in the sediment. It's explained in books about the film and I believe it's even mentioned in the film.

Quote[/b] ]Get it through your thick as lead skulls... Kong won. sorry... but he did. All the evidence, all the stuff that went on before hand with those in charge of the picture, all sorts of stuff to prove that Kong won out in the end.

A little tense at the beginning aren't we? http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif  http://www.kaijuphile.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif  But sorry, there is no hardcore proof to show that Kong won in the movie and neither Godzilla. The only evidence to show Kong won is that Toho intended him to win. While many of us here recognize Kong as the victor, like I do, the fights were so even, and, if you were keeping points for each kaiju, it would be too close to call. Like my one post near the end of the 1st page. It gives many a reason as to how each monster could be considered the victor according to the way the film played out.

Quote[/b] ]The Nay Sayers only bit of proof? "Godzilla was chilling underwater and Kong was running away" or some kind of version of that BS reason.

BS reason? It's just as good of a reason as saying Kong walked away victorious. Saying it's a BS reason just shows ignorance. As I said, it's as good of a reason as the other reasons give Kong and Godzilla.

Quote[/b] ]What strikes me as INSANELY ODD... is that you never hear this #### when it comes to Godzilla's other losses

Because those films actually show an outright winner and loser. This film can be perceived in two different ways. The film didn't show an outright winner or loser.

Quote[/b] ]when a fan favorite villain monster gets beat after Godzilla gets some kind of new power or renewed strength.

Because none of Godzilla's other foes are as classic, to fans, like Kong. The Kong/Godzilla matchup is always one, if not, the best matchups in film history. Both of these kaiju were very popular during this time period. Kong was in his prime, and Godzilla was consistently growing in popularity. This matchup is one of the most recognized in the genre.

Quote[/b] ]This HAS to be the biggest reason. People who were used to seeing Godzilla win through out their childhood or when they were first watching Godzilla... and expecting similar results with this match-up... only to have it not go the way they expected. It has to be true... cause if it were the other way around with Godzilla vs. Mothra... people'd be ragging on the moth more than the ape. They knew who Kong was, and they obviously knew who Godzilla was, cause they were huge fans... but they thought that "Godzilla always wins", so they pop this movie into their VHS player and get one major upset in their eyes.

Not everyone, though thinks that way. With a title like King Kong Vs. Godzilla, many people know who the intended winner is supposed to be. Like I have said several times in this post, there is no clear winner or loser portrayed in this film like there is in Mothra Vs. Godzilla.
I, for one, knew Kong was the intended winner when I bought this film many years ago. If the film portrayed Kong breaking Godzilla's neck, or something that showed Kong the absolute victor, I guarantee you that threads like these wouldn't have never been created. It all boils down to the ending; there is no absolute winner or loser portrayed.