What's WRONG with using Godzilla's bones? [Archive]

Charles RB

January 23rd, 2004, 06:50 PM

Yes, blah blah respect the dead blah blah... Well, sorry, but Godzilla kept launching devastating and murderous attacks on Japan. What, would it have been better if the JSDF hadn't made Kiryu and just let Godzilla kill more people?

It really irks me when anti-Godzilla weaponry is presented in a bad light. It's ******* Godzilla! He attacks cities and kills people for no reason! So do other monsters! Why is it wrong to try and fight them off?!

Grand Godzilla

January 23rd, 2004, 07:28 PM

Personally I don't know its seems stupid but it really dosen't bother me.

http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/kinggojismilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gamerasmilie.gif  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mothrasmilie.gif

Mothraleo

January 23rd, 2004, 07:40 PM

Thats just it. The dead must be Respected. Considering as well that man was to blame for the origional Godzilla's coming to be.

Alien-G

January 23rd, 2004, 07:44 PM

the JSDF, had made weapons in the past to stop monsters, the maser tank for example

Husnock

January 23rd, 2004, 09:09 PM

I thought it was a pretty stupid and pointless threat for Mothra to make.  This whole big deal about the possibility of Mothra becoming an enemy of makind is made, and what's more, the bones aren't removed from Kiryu.  And what, pray tell, does Mothra do aout it?  Absolutely nothing.  She doesn't make another warning, she doesn't turn on humanity, Hell, she doesn't even seem to care that the bones are still in there when Kiryu shows up again.  Toho kinda left a big plot hole there, and just like the Matrix Trilogy, they don't follow up on an important point at all.

Mothraleo

January 23rd, 2004, 11:30 PM

Look at it this way, how would you fell if some one took your bones and used them in making a super machine, there for diesturbing your eternal peace.

The Great MM

January 24th, 2004, 12:34 AM

for one I couldn't care less, I wouldn't be using them, heck i'll be enjoying the "other life".

Project Pimp

January 24th, 2004, 05:06 AM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 23 2004,18:50)]Yes, blah blah respect the dead blah blah... Well, sorry, but Godzilla kept launching devastating and murderous attacks on Japan. What, would it have been better if the JSDF hadn't made Kiryu and just let Godzilla kill more people?
In the GxMG/GMMG universe, the second Godzilla never even appeared until Godzilla 54's bones were removed from the sea.

Kaiju Nexus

January 24th, 2004, 09:00 AM

Quote[/b] (Project Pimp @ Jan. 24 2004,05:06)]Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 23 2004,18:50)]Yes, blah blah respect the dead blah blah... Well, sorry, but Godzilla kept launching devastating and murderous attacks on Japan. What, would it have been better if the JSDF hadn't made Kiryu and just let Godzilla kill more people?
In the GxMG/GMMG universe, the second Godzilla never even appeared until Godzilla 54's bones were removed from the sea.
exactly.  if it wasn't for mankind's stupidity, godzilla would have never returned.  that's the whole basis of the movie.

Mothraleo

January 24th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Quote[/b] (Monster Master @ Jan. 24 2004,01:34)]for one I couldn't care less, I wouldn't be using them, heck i'll be enjoying the "other life".
Not exactly. When Kiryu goes crazy, it is as if he becomes Godzilla 54. So you would be draged both ways, to life and death.

Charles RB

January 24th, 2004, 01:41 PM

Quote[/b] (Mothraleo @ Jan. 23 2004,19:40)]Considering as well that man was to blame for the origional Godzilla's coming to be.
That would work as an excuse, except the original Godzilla attacked Tokyo when he was created by American atom-bomb tests.

When you've got a giant monstrosity who attacks a city that had nothing to do with his creation and kills thousands of people who also had nothing to do with his creation- frankly, screw respecting his corpse. Especially when you need some hideously-powerful weapon to defend yourself against the second Godzilla, who also has a habit of stomping on people.

Charles RB

January 24th, 2004, 01:46 PM

Quote[/b] (Project Pimp @ Jan. 24 2004,05:06)]In the GxMG/GMMG universe, the second Godzilla never even appeared until Godzilla 54's bones were removed from the sea.
Note he appears far from where the bones are, doesn't head for the bones and indeed shows no signs he gives a crap about the bones in his first appearence in GXMG.

Also note that the JSDF et al didn't know about the bones because the Shoubin didn't tell anyone until after Godzilla's made several attacks. Wouldn't it have made more sense to tell everyone before thousands have been killed and Kiryu's the main element of Japan's anti-monster strategies?

Kaiju Nexus

January 24th, 2004, 02:56 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 24 2004,13:41)]Quote[/b] (Mothraleo @ Jan. 23 2004,19:40)]Considering as well that man was to blame for the origional Godzilla's coming to be.
That would work as an excuse, except the original Godzilla attacked Tokyo when he was created by American atom-bomb tests.

When you've got a giant monstrosity who attacks a city that had nothing to do with his creation and kills thousands of people who also had nothing to do with his creation- frankly, screw respecting his corpse. Especially when you need some hideously-powerful weapon to defend yourself against the second Godzilla, who also has a habit of stomping on people.
countries, and cities, and races of people mean nothing to Godzilla, or nature in general.  they are only important to man.  so, nature doesn't care if America made the bombs, and Japan didn't, it cares that HUMANITY MADE ATOMB BOMBS.

Project Pimp

January 24th, 2004, 04:29 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 24 2004,13:46)]
"Also note that the JSDF et al didn't know about the bones because the Shoubin didn't tell anyone until after Godzilla's made several attacks."

Of course the JSDF knew. They made Mechagodzilla around the bones!

"Note he appears far from where the bones are, doesn't head for the bones and indeed shows no signs he gives a crap about the bones in his first appearence in GXMG."

Those ships and junk at the beginning of GxMG were apparently carrying the bones. This isn't explained directly in GxMG, but supposedly in official books, and it was hopefully cleared up in GMMG.

Charles RB

January 24th, 2004, 05:41 PM

Quote[/b] (DBZelda7 @ Jan. 24 2004,14:56)]so, nature doesn't care if America made the bombs, and Japan didn't, it cares that HUMANITY MADE ATOMB BOMBS.
Yep, smart move nature. You just showed your anger about atom bombs by killing thousands of people who lived in a country that didn't make the atom bomb.

Nature's a moron, it seems.

Charles RB

January 24th, 2004, 05:45 PM

Quote[/b] (Project Pimp @ Jan. 24 2004,16:29)]Of course the JSDF knew. They made Mechagodzilla around the bones!
What I meant to say was that the JSDF didn't know Godzilla was attacking because of the bones until the Shoubijin told them. And they didn't mention that until Godzilla had attacked several times already. Surely they could've said something before the bones became part of Kiryu? Then the bones could be returned and Japan would be able to have their anti-Godzilla defensive weapon as well.

Project Pimp

January 24th, 2004, 05:48 PM

The point is humanity should've known better in the first place.

Of course, if this was all real, I'd have to side with Japan. Kiryu would make an awesome weapon to repel kaiju. I'd say kick Godzilla's arse and nuke Mothra if it turns on us.

But it's just a movie, and I'm only pointing out its point. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

imposterzilla_exe

January 24th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Also supposedly Japan is where Godzilla's ancient territory is.  Its a dual blade.  Hatred of man ebacuse of the bomb and hatred of man on his land.  PP is right on this.  I'll back him up here, because he speaks the truth.

By the way, Japan has a deep cultural thing about not decicrating the graves of the dead.  me, being partially native american, I also understand this cultural perspective too.

Pkmatrix

January 25th, 2004, 11:03 AM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 24 2004,17:41)]Quote[/b] (DBZelda7 @ Jan. 24 2004,14:56)]so, nature doesn't care if America made the bombs, and Japan didn't, it cares that HUMANITY MADE ATOMB BOMBS.
Yep, smart move nature. You just showed your anger about atom bombs by killing thousands of people who lived in a country that didn't make the atom bomb.

Nature's a moron, it seems.
That's not really the point...there is no other species known to us that has any concept of "Race", "Nationality", "Culture", or any of these other VERY Human ideas. *Why would Godzilla (or any other natural force) have an understanding of that? *The only thing the first Godzilla knew was that humanity has stepped into forbidden territory by splitting the atom and abusing that power. *He didn't know WHY, he didn't know about World War II or that the United States had dropped the nukes on Japan or that it had been the US and other Western Powers that had been testing the nukes in the South Pacific. *All he knew was: *"Man split the atom. *Man has abused that power. *Man must be punished."

It is the same thing when the second Godzilla appeared at the dawn of the 21st Century. *He doesn't care WHY the we've moved the skeleton, the fact that the DID is enough to warrant punishment. *Once again, humanity was messing with forces they had no right to mess with.

Charles RB

January 28th, 2004, 03:17 PM

Quote[/b] (Pkmatrix @ Jan. 25 2004,11:03)]there is no other species known to us that has any concept of "Race", "Nationality", "Culture", or any of these other VERY Human ideas. *
Actually, that's not quite accurate. There are multitudes of species that live in groups, and each of those groups has a basic understanding that there are other groups out there. Wolves don't recognise each other as just wolves, they recognise each other as either My Pack and The Other Guys. Nationality et al are just larger versions of this.

If nature can't understand concepts like that, nature's not paying much attention to itself.

Quote[/b] ]All he knew was:  "Man split the atom.  Man has abused that power.  Man must be punished."

So he goes after a nation that, at that point in time, had no nuclear weapons or devices? Heisei Godzilla was attracted to nuclear power plants and nuclear subs- you think his predecessor would notice "hmmm, all the nuclear energy's coming from over there".

Quote[/b] ]He doesn't care WHY the we've moved the skeleton, the fact that the DID is enough to warrant punishment.

Except it's not. It could be when they used to bones to construct Kiryu, but they did that after Godzilla had shown up again and wrecked the real estate. And nobody came along and said "oh yeah, having those bones above land will tick off Godzilla" until several years after the fact, so how can you expect anyone to realise bringing up the bones to study will cause anything bad to happen?

This is less humanity messing with forces they shouldn't mess with, and more humanity finding Godzilla's bones & bringing them up to the surface to take a look at, nature then messing with them w/ no reason given and humanity retaliating by building a giant robot & saying "all right nature, BRING IT ON!"

Course, the real reason the GXMG/GMMG Godzilla attacked could be because he's jealous that Kiryu's cooler than he is.  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cam Eleon

January 28th, 2004, 10:51 PM

Let's face it, most Godzilla films usually unsubtlely sledgehammer home the message that 'humanity is flawed and bad, nature is good'. (Probably why I've always wanted to take a baseball bat to those Mothra fairies for harping on it. Well, that and their blasted singing...) It just comes with the territory. At least, they've never been as annoying about it as in Jurassic Park 2....

Aragorn_Strider22

January 29th, 2004, 12:20 AM

Last time I checked nature didn't give a **** about lines on a map. To it, Humans are just humans, it is us who divide ourselves upon location, not nature.

Mecha-Rodan

January 29th, 2004, 02:02 AM

And when a pack of wolves comes across, say, two packs of Coyotes, does it show any difference in the way it attacks either of the coyote packs? Does it really care what pack it attacks and kills from, as long as it's a coyote? To Shodai Goji, mankind was the enemy because he was provoked to attack them. Godzilla was simply resting off the coast of Odo Island until ships started passing over him. Then the japanese military depth charged him, and he consequently followed them back to Japan. If the military had left him alone, he probably would have stayed near Odo Island for the rest of his life.

imposterzilla_exe

January 29th, 2004, 08:56 AM

Actually, that's not quite accurate. There are multitudes of species that live in groups, and each of those groups has a basic understanding that there are other groups out there. Wolves don't recognise each other as just wolves, they recognise each other as either My Pack and The Other Guys. Nationality et al are just larger versions of this.

If nature can't understand concepts like that, nature's not paying much attention to itself.
-

Very correct!  ants especially have nations!

but godzilla's home was in Japan.  so think it's the planet of the apes scenario.

mecha-kumonga

January 29th, 2004, 01:28 PM

Well to tell the truth Asian religions have a lot of ancestor worship involved. This is true for Shintoism (Japanese religion) Most westerners don't care about people that they don't know so therefore we really don't understand why Asians care so much for they dead ancestors. They believe all the luck and everything they have comes to them from their dead ancestors so if you mess with the ancestors body you are going to effect them, and it pisses of the gods. Therefore to do what they did with Godzilla 54's bones effects Godzilla greatly and pisses of the Shinto gods. In GxMG Godzilla fought Kiryu to get his ancestors bones back. In GxMxMG Mothra is sent to do this for the gods, seeing that in GxMG Godzilla failed to do so.
This was most likely left out because the movies were not really meant for Western Audiances. The people they figured would watch them would already understand this and know this.

Kaiju Nexus

January 29th, 2004, 04:07 PM

Quote[/b] (Cam Eleon @ Jan. 28 2004,22:51)]Let's face it, most Godzilla films usually unsubtlely sledgehammer home the message that 'humanity is flawed and bad, nature is good'. (Probably why I've always wanted to take a baseball bat to those Mothra fairies for harping on it. Well, that and their blasted singing...) It just comes with the territory. At least, they've never been as annoying about it as in Jurassic Park 2....
one of the many multitudes of reasons I am an obsessed Godzilla fan, because I basically share that same philosophy!!

Charles RB

January 30th, 2004, 05:48 PM

Quote[/b] (Mecha-Rodan @ Jan. 29 2004,02:02)]If the military had left him alone, he probably would have stayed near Odo Island for the rest of his life.
And why did they attack him? Because he was destroying ships and killing people. And why was he doing that? Because... they passed overhead, not posing a threat to him or his territory in any way.

Godzilla is not a blameless entity, and I'm annoyed that the newer movies keep trying to pass him off as such (besides GMK).

The Great MM

January 30th, 2004, 06:17 PM

But then why does Mothra help Kiryu and Goji and Mothra fight?

Mecha-Rodan

January 30th, 2004, 08:16 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 30 2004,17:48)]And why did they attack him? Because he was destroying ships and killing people. And why was he doing that? Because... they passed overhead, not posing a threat to him or his territory in any way.

Godzilla is not a blameless entity, and I'm annoyed that the newer movies keep trying to pass him off as such (besides GMK).
Umm, I would say that he was protecting his territory. He saw the ships as a threat to him (they were large, afterall) so he destroyed every one that he saw. When he came up on shore on Odo Island, he was probably simply prowling his territory. He never used his beam on Odo, he wasn't there to destroy. He didn't understand that taking human lives was bad, he was simply an animal, but a vengeful one at that. He was created by nuclear weapons, but he wanted nothing but peace even with his new powers. He just wanted to be left alone, and to conceal himself in the security of his island. He destroyed the passing ships, and saw the ships that had depth charged him as a threat that needed to be dealt with, but they managed to get to Tokyo, where Godzilla just happened to show up, most likely following them. The military bombarded him, and he grew angrier, thus he attacked again. He is quite blameless, it's just that mankind couldn't except anything that could possibly be more powerful then themselves, and finally killed him.

Charles RB

January 31st, 2004, 07:19 AM

Quote[/b] (Mecha-Rodan @ Jan. 30 2004,20:16)]He saw the ships as a threat to him (they were large, afterall) so he destroyed every one that he saw.
When animals defend their territory, most of them warn off the invaders first. And the ships were passing through and not actually doing anything to his territory- he attacked anyway. That is not the action of a blameless animal. That is the action of a rabid animal. Yes, the Japanese navy depth-charged him- because you put down rabid animals.

Quote[/b] ]saw the ships that had depth charged him as a threat that needed to be dealt with, but they managed to get to Tokyo, where Godzilla just happened to show up, most likely following them.

Again- not the actions of a blameless animal. An animal would stay in its territory once its attackers had left- instead, Godzilla heads for Tokyo and destroys it.

There is no reason for destroying Tokyo that could be attributed to a "blameless animal". That was the action of an aggressive, rabid creature.

And he does it again in many other movies- Godzilla VS The Thing, Godzilla 1985, Godzilla VS Biollante and so on. He attacks unprovoked in many instances.

The Cerebral Assassin

January 31st, 2004, 11:18 AM

It comes down to the fact that Godzilla is an agressive nuclear mutant that can do whatever the hell he wants. He has an ego the size of the Milky-Way galaxy and a temper hotter than Satan's hell. He does what he does because he wants to do it.

Mecha-Rodan

January 31st, 2004, 11:36 AM

Then how come he didn't go strait for Tokyo as soon as he woke up/was created? Again, passing over is like going through his territory. Godzilla heard the loud noises of the ships, and he had most likely never seen them before, he didn't know they couldn't harm him, he just knew that something big besides himself was passing through his territory. But, he had a slight intelligence streik, and when those ships attacked him, he followed them out of his territory because they had gotten away. He only left after patrolling the island once. He then followed the ships back to Japan, which he quickly established as his new territory. He came up on land and was patrolling the area around Tokyo, until the military attacked. He then destroyed the city because the military kept attacking him. I'm not saying that they should never have tried to defend themselves, but Godzilla was just looking after his new territory and saw the military (and probably any vehicles, after noticing tanks and jeeps) as invaders. Showa Godzilla also claimed Japan for his territory and only attacked when the military attacked him first. The only Godzilla that was ever truly evil was GMK goji, and that's it.

Shodai Goji = Animal
Showa Goji = Intelligent Animal
Heisei Goji = Agressive Animal
GMK Goji = Possessed by Evil Spirits (and can you really call even call them evil?)

Charles RB

January 31st, 2004, 12:26 PM

Quote[/b] (Mecha-Rodan @ Jan. 31 2004,11:36)]Godzilla heard the loud noises of the ships, and he had most likely never seen them before, he didn't know they couldn't harm him, he just knew that something big besides himself was passing through his territory.
But they weren't doing anything except passing through it. And Godzilla gave no sign that it was his territory, no challenge for them to go away. He just attacks when unprovoked.

Quote[/b] ]But, he had a slight intelligence streik, and when those ships attacked him, he followed them out of his territory because they had gotten away.

Which animals don't do unless they're highly rabid.

Quote[/b] ]He then followed the ships back to Japan, which he quickly established as his new territory.

That's a bit of a stretch, really. When animals claim new territory, they mark it. They don't go around wrecking parts of it like Godzilla did (note that in his "inspection", he deliberately goes for a train).

Quote[/b] ]He then destroyed the city because the military kept attacking him.

He'd destroyed bits of it before then, and he kicked his way through the military and then started destroying more of it.

Quote[/b] ]Showa Godzilla also claimed Japan for his territory and only attacked when the military attacked him first.

If you ignore Godzilla VS The Thing.

Saruman

January 31st, 2004, 12:40 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 31 2004,07:19)]When animals defend their territory, most of them warn off the invaders first. And the ships were passing through and not actually doing anything to his territory- he attacked anyway. That is not the action of a blameless animal. That is the action of a rabid animal. Yes, the Japanese navy depth-charged him- because you put down rabid animals.
For starters your comparing totally land based animals for use to prove your point, which is wrong. You should be comparing "Sea" based animals to Godzilla.

Take a look at the Great White Shark. Why does it attack people? The reason, because it sees the shape of the person from underneath and typically associates it with food. Noise and splashing in the water also attract it for those reasons.

Now Godzilla my feed on radiation, but the creature that he was before he mutated, is still a part of him and he still posesses the instincts of that creature. So the ships could bee considered to him a potential food source at his new size.

Quote[/b] ]Again- not the actions of a blameless animal. An animal would stay in its territory once its attackers had left- instead, Godzilla heads for Tokyo and destroys it.

Again, your basising this on land based animals. There are plenty of marine animals that have been shown to follow something out of its normal territory if its been disturbed, angered or hurt by something.

Quote[/b] ]There is no reason for destroying Tokyo that could be attributed to a "blameless animal". That was the action of an aggressive, rabid creature.

I wouldnt say that this is totally true. Alot of things happen just because of his size in the movie. He will do a large amount of destruction just by walking through a city and he doesnt even have to agressively do anything to cause that damage. But then shooting at him and trying to destroy him im sure didnt help matters, it just made him angry.

Quote[/b] ]And he does it again in many other movies- Godzilla VS The Thing, Godzilla 1985, Godzilla VS Biollante and so on. He attacks unprovoked in many instances.

Hes also usually looking for food sources, such as power plants or moving to attack another Kaiju who is in his territory in most of his films.

Mecha-Rodan

January 31st, 2004, 02:52 PM

^ Thank you.

Charles RB

January 31st, 2004, 04:59 PM

Quote[/b] (Saruman @ Jan. 31 2004,12:40)]For starters your comparing totally land based animals for use to prove your point, which is wrong. You should be comparing "Sea" based animals to Godzilla.
Except Godzilla's a mutant dinosaur, not a mutant sea animal, and is more amphibious than anything else.

Quote[/b] ]So the ships could bee considered to him a potential food source at his new size.

I doubt that, seeing as he vapourises them. Hard to eat something when you've blown up most of it.

Quote[/b] ]Alot of things happen just because of his size in the movie.

And also because he methodically drags him atomic fire-breath across whole city streets. Which he does before the military opens fire on him, so the "shooting at him made him angry" excuse doesn't work (yes, he got depth-charged, but those ships were in a bay, not in the city). That was an act of deliberate and pointless destruction.

PyrasTerran

January 31st, 2004, 09:02 PM

Quote[/b] ]Except Godzilla's a mutant dinosaur, not a mutant sea animal, and is more amphibious than anything else.

....A dinosaur can't be aquatic? That's new...

Quote[/b] ]And also because he methodically drags him atomic fire-breath across whole city streets. Which he does before the military opens fire on him, so the "shooting at him made him angry" excuse doesn't work (yes, he got depth-charged, but those ships were in a bay, not in the city). That was an act of deliberate and pointless destruction.

It's not pointless, it's part of the message he made.

I think I see what is going on within this thread, but I'm not sure.. You prefer Godzilla to be an animal and not a force of nature, even though he is most blatantly a force of nature in G'54, GXMG and GMM, something that has to be accepted no matter what. Because he is a force of nature, he will abide by the unconditional laws of nature. If Man goes to far, Man will be punished. Japan is the closest place of civilization to Godzilla's birthplace, so it is the first to be punished. There's no saying that Godzilla wasn't going to span across the entire world..

The Great MM

January 31st, 2004, 09:32 PM

Quote[/b] ]It's not pointless, it's part of the message he made.

I think I see what is going on within this thread, but I'm not sure.. You prefer Godzilla to be an animal and not a force of nature, even though he is most blatantly a force of nature in G'54, GXMG and GMM, something that has to be accepted no matter what. Because he is a force of nature, he will abide by the unconditional laws of nature. If Man goes to far, Man will be punished. Japan is the closest place of civilization to Godzilla's birthplace, so it is the first to be punished. There's no saying that Godzilla wasn't going to span across the entire world..

That would be cool to see ole Goji 54 storm accross say Los Angelis or Las Vegas...but then what about Godzilla 1970's, he saves humans and everything else all the time, and even became allies with some kaiju that were enemies (Anguirus, Rodan, Mothra).

PyrasTerran

January 31st, 2004, 09:44 PM

Quote[/b] ]Godzilla 1970's, he saves humans and everything else all the time, and even became allies with some kaiju that were enemies (Anguirus, Rodan, Mothra).

That's obvious, isn't it?

Toho changed him to be a hero. Just like Sony changed him to be an animal in their film. In the end, it is the creators of the films, not the film's laws of nature and space, that have the final say.

Saruman

February 1st, 2004, 01:11 AM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Jan. 31 2004,16:59)]Except Godzilla's a mutant dinosaur, not a mutant sea animal, and is more amphibious than anything else.
Where does Godzilla spend the majority of his time? The answer would be at sea, its not difficult to figure out. But all of your comparisons are to land based creatures, or could you tell me how many sea animals you have seen with rabies?

And thats the point, your comparing him to a rabid animal when that isnt even close to being a realistic comparison. A marine/sea animal is much more in line with how Godzilla acts than any land bound creature.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt that, seeing as he vapourises them. Hard to eat something when you've blown up most of it.

So your saying that he knew that his breath would blow up the ships before he attacked them? That would require alot of intelligence to figure that out. And being the "rabid" animal that you referred to him as, completely counters that statement. You see rabid animals are crazed and not acting of their own will.

Maybe you never considered the fact that he was attacking something because he saw it as a potential food source. His breath would be an effective means to kill something now wouldnt it. How is Godilla supposed to know that his breath would cause ships to explode?

Quote[/b] ]And also because he methodically drags him atomic fire-breath across whole city streets. Which he does before the military opens fire on him, so the "shooting at him made him angry" excuse doesn't work (yes, he got depth-charged, but those ships were in a bay, not in the city). That was an act of deliberate and pointless destruction.

Again, you counter your own statements. If Godzilla is acting so "Methodically," than how is it that he is also acting like a "rabid" animal. Those are two complete opposites. Methodically would mean he was cauculating and doing things with a definitive plan. Rabid would mean he was doing things not of his own will because he is crazed. So would you like to explain how the same creature can be both "Methodical" and "Rabid" at the same time?

Cosmos

February 1st, 2004, 09:56 AM

And according to the propaghandistic king kong vs Godzilla, Godzilla has a brain the size of a pea, so it's likely he doesn't think about much.

however, I have always Identified him with pure destrctive force he's meant to be.

I find when describing him to the lay, I use the anaolgy of Sin from FFX, a collective of spiritual forces.
But I've never seen godzilla has ever meant to be seen as any kind of literal animal, mutated or otherwise.
But always a metaphor, (except for G.I.N.O. which may explain the emptiness of that film), Sometimes Godzilla, obviously, an Atom Bomb, and the fear of which. Sometimes he represents Gaia's Hired muscle, sometimes he's humanity, (that is to say: the always evolving suvivors)

I think this is clearest in, G54, of course, and the recent GMK, where Godzilla finally represents the fear of nuclear destruction he was once meant to be.

The logical analysis of Godzilla's animal behavior is difficult because as mentioned before, each director had there own agenda adding and removing attitides and abilities...which come to think of would be why I see a collective conciousness for Godzilla...

A thought that did cross my mind, however, As many of you know many Dinosaurs had two brains, especially the larger fella's, and if the Aquatic fictional Dino that spawned Godzilla had Two brains.... you see where I'm going?... the extention of that thought was whatever mutation caused his body to change would have mutated his mind as well, and so there is no possible understanding to how our favorite Titan would think. Perhaps he has a tremendous case of nuclear powered schizophrenia.

Charles RB

February 1st, 2004, 01:56 PM

Quote[/b] (PyrasTerran @ Jan. 31 2004,21:02)]....A dinosaur can't be aquatic? That's new...
It can't. One defining law on dinosaurs- they're land animals.

Quote[/b] ]You prefer Godzilla to be an animal and not a force of nature

No, I'm arguing against Mecha-Rodan's "Godzilla's a blameless animal" opinion.

I prefer Godzilla to be a vicious destructive *******.

Quote[/b] ]Because he is a force of nature, he will abide by the unconditional laws of nature. If Man goes to far, Man will be punished.

Which isn't an unconditional law of nature.

Charles RB

February 1st, 2004, 02:06 PM

Quote[/b] (Saruman @ Feb. 01 2004,01:11)]How is Godilla supposed to know that his breath would cause ships to explode?
I think he'd have figured it out after the first time.

Quote[/b] ]If Godzilla is acting so "Methodically," than how is it that he is also acting like a "rabid" animal. Those are two complete opposites.

Good point. In which case, Godzilla isn't acting much like an animal at all (name me some animals that methodically wipe out massive areas of territory without being provoked by something with in it) and so all the "he's an animal" arguments for his behaviour.

And I was originally trying to prove he wasn't really acting like an animal, which is why I brought up the whole "rabid" schtick. (I may have lost the original thread of argument though)

Quote[/b] ]And according to the propaghandistic king kong vs Godzilla, Godzilla has a brain the size of a pea

Yeah, but that's a scene added to the dub version. So buggerit.  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Quote[/b] ]As many of you know many Dinosaurs had two brains

They didn't.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps he has a tremendous case of nuclear powered schizophrenia.

That would explain quite a lot, actually. He acts pretty different in his first five films- now we know why!  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Mecha-Rodan

February 1st, 2004, 05:20 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 01 2004,13:56)]Quote[/b] (PyrasTerran @ Jan. 31 2004,21:02)]....A dinosaur can't be aquatic? That's new...
It can't. One defining law on dinosaurs- they're land animals.
So, what's that little bugger in your avatar there?

Saruman

February 1st, 2004, 10:53 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 01 2004,14:06)]I think he'd have figured it out after the first time.
I guess you have never seen lab animal experiments then. Sometimes it takes quite a few times before an animal will put 2 & 2 together. Maybe it hadnt sunk in yet and then he was attacked by ships using depth charges. Which means now hes going to see them as a threat and attack them any time he sees them.

Quote[/b] ]Good point. In which case, Godzilla isn't acting much like an animal at all (name me some animals that methodically wipe out massive areas of territory without being provoked by something with in it) and so all the "he's an animal" arguments for his behaviour.

Ever hear of Army Ants? They methodically wipe out vast areas of territory killing everything in their path. Ants are also the only other species besides humans that actually wages war.

Quote[/b] ]And I was originally trying to prove he wasn't really acting like an animal, which is why I brought up the whole "rabid" schtick. (I may have lost the original thread of argument though)

But the fact, is that in the movie he is an animal. Sure we consider him a "force of nature" but he is still an animal, and one unlike any other. You try to remove that "animal" part and say that hes just a "force of nature," and IMO that diminishes Godzilla as a character.

PyrasTerran

February 2nd, 2004, 10:50 AM

Quote[/b] ]Which isn't an unconditional law of nature.

Says you. It's the interpretation of the movie maker to decide how the movie's laws work, not the fans.

Quote[/b] ]It can't. One defining law on dinosaurs- they're land animals.

Was this established in 1954? I think not. Back in the day, dinosaurs were sluggish and numbskulled, and everything that was reptilian in prehistoric times was considered a dinosaur by the public.

Charles RB

February 2nd, 2004, 05:59 PM

Quote[/b] (Mecha-Rodan @ Feb. 01 2004,17:20)]Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 01 2004,13:56)]Quote[/b] (PyrasTerran @ Jan. 31 2004,21:02)]....A dinosaur can't be aquatic? That's new...
It can't. One defining law on dinosaurs- they're land animals.
So, what's that little bugger in your avatar there?
A sign that 1970s Toho knew piss-all about basic paleontology.  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Charles RB

February 2nd, 2004, 06:07 PM

Sometimes it takes quite a few times before an animal will put 2 & 2 together.
quote]
Godzilla, in his all his incarnations, tends to show more intelligence than that though. I say he knew exactly what would happen after the first time, and he just likes destroying them.

[QUOTE=Quote ]Ever hear of Army Ants? They methodically wipe out vast areas of territory killing everything in their path.

True. But Godzilla's isn't an ant and has no reason to act similar to one- no hive structure or the like.

Quote[/b] ]It's the interpretation of the movie maker to decide how the movie's laws work

You said it's an "unconditional law of nature", not "unconditional law of nature in Toho films".

Quote[/b] ]Was this established in 1954?

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]everything that was reptilian in prehistoric times was considered a dinosaur by the public.

Still is. This is because the general public doesn't know much about dinosaurs. Fact remains that to be a dinosaur, you need to be land-based and this was a scientific criteria even in 1954.

Godzilla: King of the Monsters

February 2nd, 2004, 07:39 PM

Yes, but in the movie my username is named after, the one old scientist guy says that Godzilla is a rare prehistoric reptile that lived in both land and sea. Think Mosasaurus meets T-rex.

And why does Godzilla destroy Tokyo on a regular basis? Let me imitate Godzilla for a sec:

Hi, I'm Godzilla. I like to take walks in the park. This park has lots of silvery rocks. I saw a little silver worm today and saw ants crawling inside it. I quickly found out that rocks break easily. I met a one-eyed guy one time. He yelled at me, so I punched him. I like pretty lights, so I made some at the park. There are a lot of Mosquitos there. There where so many I decided to leave.

PyrasTerran

February 2nd, 2004, 09:25 PM

Quote[/b] ]You said it's an "unconditional law of nature", not "unconditional law of nature in Toho films".

I obviously meant Toho films, please try and put two and two together, even if it's against you. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Still is. This is because the general public doesn't know much about dinosaurs. Fact remains that to be a dinosaur, you need to be land-based and this was a scientific criteria even in 1954.

So you're saying movie makers in that days should have had a good knowledge of paleantology? Please, they were making a scary movie, not a scientific documentary on "what if". When Disney made the movie Dinosaur, several paleontologists urged them to remove the lemurs, since they didn't evolve with the then dinosaurs until 150 or so million years later. Disney responded(not a direct quote) "We might as well make the dinosaurs not talk at all, since they couldn't talk in real life". It's a movie, it's not going to go by the laws of reality, but the laws of the movie itself. People today still inflate and screw up truths to movies with creatures, just look at Anaconda, and even Jurassic Park.

Mothraleo

February 2nd, 2004, 10:05 PM

How do humons know that dino's couldn't swim or be sea based. Mammals fly nowdays, bats, so whats to say we havn't found some thing deep in the big blue.

Saruman

February 3rd, 2004, 12:17 AM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 02 2004,18:07)]Godzilla, in his all his incarnations, tends to show more intelligence than that though. I say he knew exactly what would happen after the first time, and he just likes destroying them.
I wouldnt say all of his incarnations. The 70's yes and a few others, but not all of them. Heisei Goji wasnt especially bright. You also have to remember that something that could be a instinct to Godzilla may appear to be intelligence when viewing the movie.

And what if Godzilla does enjoy seeing his breath blow things up? That doesnt make him intentionally destructive as far as he is concerned. Many animals, cats especially, will play with their prey, it entertains them. Maybe when Godzillas breath blows things up its entertaining to him. Its not his fault that we are in his way, he is an animal and doesnt posess a humans reasoning abilities.

Quote[/b] ]True. But Godzilla's isn't an ant and has no reason to act similar to one- no hive structure or the like.

You asked me to name an animal that wipes out things methodically, I did. It doesnt matter if its one army ant or a million of them, they are all individual ants working together. One ant still has the knowledge that it requires for it to work in such a methodical manner with all the rest of them.

Charles RB

February 3rd, 2004, 03:45 AM

Quote[/b] (Mothraleo @ Feb. 02 2004,22:05)]How do humons know that dino's couldn't swim or be sea based.
Because to be a dinosaur, you walk on land and have upright legs (as opposed to sprawling lizard ones).

Hence, if it's sea-based its not a dinosaur.

Quote[/b] ]So you're saying movie makers in that days should have had a good knowledge of paleantology?

Yes, if you're making a movie with a dinosaur in it.

Charles RB

February 3rd, 2004, 05:05 AM

My main point, which appears to be going south- Godzilla was not, in his first film, presented as an animal. And he was also not presented as a "force of nature". Those are revisionist takes brought up in much later films.

What he originally was, was a murderous, destructive horror that acted as atom-bomb metaphor and that people were meant to be scared of. Later films ignore this because, for some odd reason, they can't bring themselves to have Godzilla as the villain anymore (w/ the exception of GMK). Why is a crying shame because that's what he was meant to be and is far better than the animal/force of nature takes that try to say "yes, he's destroying a city and killing people, but it's humanity's fault!" (never mind the people in the city didn't do crap).

Godzilla: King of the Monsters

February 3rd, 2004, 08:25 AM

Ya know, I made a good point back on page 2, and it may intrest you to read it.

PyrasTerran

February 3rd, 2004, 11:26 AM

Quote[/b] ]My main point, which appears to be going south- Godzilla was not, in his first film, presented as an animal. And he was also not presented as a "force of nature". Those are revisionist takes brought up in much later films.
What he originally was, was a murderous, destructive horror that acted as atom-bomb metaphor and that people were meant to be scared of. Later films ignore this because, for some odd reason, they can't bring themselves to have Godzilla as the villain anymore (w/ the exception of GMK). Why is a crying shame because that's what he was meant to be and is far better than the animal/force of nature takes that try to say "yes, he's destroying a city and killing people, but it's humanity's fault!" (never mind the people in the city didn't do crap).

Good point, yes, it was lost in the arguement. I know how that feels(Gamera & Irys vs. Godzilla & Destroyah, in Kaiju Karnage). http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charles RB

February 3rd, 2004, 12:04 PM

Quote[/b] (Godzilla: King of the Monsters @ Feb. 03 2004,08:25)]Ya know, I made a good point back on page 2, and it may intrest you to read it.
Well, it was a very... interesting view on why Godzilla keeps going to Tokyo.  http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mothraleo

February 3rd, 2004, 05:58 PM

It is a fiction movie. Not real. So whats to say he wasn't mutated for water adaption. Mabey he is like a whale. With lungs so huge it can stay under water for long periods of time. If a mammal can do it, then why can't a dino? Mammals fly, swim and walk on land. So why can't dino's???

Charles RB

February 4th, 2004, 02:28 AM

Because dinosaurs are land animals. That is a criteria for being a dinosaur, he said again...

Mammals manage to go onto all three, but mammals are a whole class of animals whereas dinosaurs are a class of prehistoric reptiles. Dinosaurs are defined by their bone structure, esp. their upright legs- to live aquatically they'd have to evolve into a very different bone structure, which would make them no longer a dinosaur. Mammals, on the other hand, are defined just by being warm-blooded, usually having some kind of fur at some point and suckling young.

Plus if a dinosaur tried to go aquatic, it'd get eaten by all the mosasaurs, pliosaurs etc...

PyrasTerran

February 4th, 2004, 11:35 AM

It's interesting that even though Mosasaurs and Plesiosaurs and Itchyosaurs are all really just reptiles, they still share the "saur" of dinosaurs.

Mothraleo

February 4th, 2004, 05:39 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 04 2004,03:28)]Because dinosaurs are land animals. That is a criteria for being a dinosaur, he said again...

Mammals manage to go onto all three, but mammals are a whole class of animals whereas dinosaurs are a class of prehistoric reptiles. Dinosaurs are defined by their bone structure, esp. their upright legs- to live aquatically they'd have to evolve into a very different bone structure, which would make them no longer a dinosaur. Mammals, on the other hand, are defined just by being warm-blooded, usually having some kind of fur at some point and suckling young.

Plus if a dinosaur tried to go aquatic, it'd get eaten by all the mosasaurs, pliosaurs etc...
Evolved, Mutated. Ever think of that?

Cole Deschain

February 4th, 2004, 06:58 PM

"Saur" just means "lizard."

Anyhow.

I actually prefer Godzilla as a force of nature- But not as an "Oh well, could be worse" force of nature. He embodies the impersonal aspect of atomic power.

A nuke doesn't "care" what it destroys.

Neither does Godzilla. He does what he does. I wouldn't call it malice, any more than I'd call a 9-point Earthquake's damage malice.

Now.

I don't consider earthquakes malicious- But they ARE terrifying. The fact that no one is immune is terrifying. But not evil. GMK aside, I have never seen Godzilla as "evil."

And for the record, I started with Gojira, so I hardly think my opinion the result of retcon mentality.

Godzilla: King of the Monsters

February 4th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Quote[/b] (Charles RB @ Feb. 03 2004,12:04)]Quote[/b] (Godzilla: King of the Monsters @ Feb. 03 2004,08:25)]Ya know, I made a good point back on page 2, and it may intrest you to read it.
Well, it was a very... interesting view on why Godzilla keeps going to Tokyo. *http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Did you read the first paragraph? That should stop your bickering about why dinosaurs can't be swimmers. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif

The Great MM

February 4th, 2004, 08:20 PM

Quote[/b] ]Hi, I'm Godzilla. I like to take walks in the park. This park has lots of silvery rocks. I saw a little silver worm today and saw ants crawling inside it. I quickly found out that rocks break easily. I met a one-eyed guy one time. He yelled at me, so I punched him. I like pretty lights, so I made some at the park. There are a lot of Mosquitos there. There where so many I decided to leave.

Stop making me feel bad for using my Trendmasters Godzilla toys against ants...hehehe. Man then bringing in tanks and fire crackers like its an invasion of the "Them" ants.

Anyway enough flash backs LOL.

Godzilla: King of the Monsters

February 5th, 2004, 07:17 AM

Quote[/b] (Godzilla: King of the Monsters @ Feb. 02 2004,19:39)]Yes, but in the movie my username is named after, the one old scientist guy says that Godzilla is a rare prehistoric reptile that lived in both land and sea. Think Mosasaurus meets T-rex.
NOW can you stop bickering about the fact dinosaurs can't be water animals? It's true. DINOSAURS couldn't be water animals. But not all prehistoric reptiles were dinosaurs. Mosasaurus, the water going reptile, was not a dinosaur, but a close relitive of a dinosaur. Same thing with Quazacoaltus, the air going reptile.