DEBATE: Should Giant Monsters in Games be considered Kaiju?

[godofPH]

Post your thoughts on this topic that I think is important. Me, I think they should count as Kaiju.

[The Great MM]

If its a monster, in any form, its a kaiju.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

If its a monster, in any form, its a kaiju.
So your saying:
Draculas a kaiju
Wolfmans a Kaiju
Freddys a kaiju
Jasons a Kaiju
Pinheads a Kaiju
That is what you said.And how does one define "Monster" anyway?

It depends on what kind of Video Game,if its From WoTM then thats a Kaiju,becuase it takes part in the destruction of cities,as does anything from KoTH etc.

[godofPH]

So your saying:
Draculas a kaiju
Wolfmans a Kaiju
Freddys a kaiju
Jasons a Kaiju
Pinheads a Kaiju
That is what you said.And how does one define "Monster" anyway?

It depends on what kind of Video Game,if its From WoTM then thats a Kaiju,becuase it takes part in the destruction of cities,as does anything from KoTH etc.
What about Gigabowser from SSBM? Or Perfect Chaos from SADX? Or The Biolizard from SA2B? Or MechaBowser from SMSS?

[The Great MM]

So your saying:
Draculas a kaiju
Wolfmans a Kaiju
Freddys a kaiju
Jasons a Kaiju
Pinheads a Kaiju
That is what you said.And how does one define "Monster" anyway?

It depends on what kind of Video Game,if its From WoTM then thats a Kaiju,becuase it takes part in the destruction of cities,as does anything from KoTH etc.

Do I have to give MY deffinition of a monster... And last time I checked, Freddy, Jason, Pinhead, Dracula, and Wolfman are human.

Anyway... MM's deffinition of a monster-

Any creature in a movie, book, comic, cartoon, game, and TV show that doesn't have any relation to a human. A monster isn't a zombie (Jason, Dracula) but can be something brought back from the dead, a real monster (Sealizar). They can't be man at one point, then a monster, and back, but there are a few exceptions (Orochi). Monsters can also be robotic (MechaGodzilla). Monsters can be from small to big. They can be demons like Pumkinhead, Majin, and Creeper. Monsters can't talk but can be telepathic (Zigra).
---

Happy? If they follow those rules, you will sooner or later find a stat of them on my website.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

who,you mean this Giga Bowser (http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/16387/gigabowserfight.jpg)?
By the looks of that picutre,he's getting his *** handed to him by a hairless psychic rat,and a Fat-Italian plumber who can shoot fireballs from his hands,would a Kaiju lose to that? > :nonono2: (note similey)

A kaiju really needs to withstand intire military assaults,and keep going.
and most Kaiju have an atomic/Naturally large/mystical Origin.

[The Great MM]

^ King Kong is considered a kaiju and he was killed by bullets.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

Kaiju are Japanese,Kong is American.
ALL american Monsters(kaiju)have been killed by bullets,or somesorta' man-made weapon.Kaiju have withstood intire tank brigades,the next generation in Weaponary the list goes on.

[The Great MM]

^ Last time I checked, Zarkorr walked strait through a napalm bombing, and continued a huge reign of terror for hundreds of miles...and he IS American.

Ogra, the momma Gorgo, did so much city destruction it would even make Godzilla 54 swell with jealousy, and she is British.

The Giant Claw annhilated anything in its way, including military, and its American.

All the Toon Zilla kaiju annhilated just about every weapon thrown at them, and they are American.

You see where I am going right...

Saying only kaiju can come from Japan is a bunch of ****, sence we see hundreds of monster from around the world do the same thing. More honarable mentions are...

Showa Yonggary
Heisie Yonggary
Cyker
Hanna Barbera Godzilla Series Monsters
Kraa
Reptilicus
The Ultraman Great Monsters (They are Australian)

[godofPH]

A kaiju really needs to withstand intire military assaults,and keep going.
and most Kaiju have an atomic/Naturally large/mystical Origin.
Hmm, Perfect Chaos wasn't destroyed by the military. Eggman made the ultimate flying battleship and perfect Chaos blasted it out of the sky. He was only defeated because sonic used the Ultimate power of the 7 chaos emeralds and became Super Sonic.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

Since you mentioned Kong.I ment the early B&W American Monsters(The Beast,THEM,Deadly Manits etc)
Cykor,Youngarry aren't japanese,but there still Asian monsters.So they would be considerd Kaiju.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

Perfect Chaos was still beaten by a sparkly golden colored Hedge Hog.
Could you refresh my memory PH,is Biolizard the last boss from Sonic Adventure 2?

[The Great MM]

What does being beaten by who matter? Showa Baragon was beaten by a giant ugly dude.

[godofPH]

Perfect Chaos was still beaten by a sparkly golden colored Hedge Hog.
Could you refresh my memory PH,is Biolizard the last boss from Sonic Adventure 2?
Biolizard is the second to last boss. Shadow beat him by destroying his life support dealy. The Final Hazard is the Final Boss, the final hazard is the biolizard fused to the Space Colony ARK. I would of mentioned the Final Hazard, but he is much to large to be a kaiju and can only fight in space.

[godofPH]

What does being beaten by who matter? Showa Baragon was beaten by a giant ugly dude.
And remember folks, Baragon later went on to be a Yamato Beast in GMK and put up a sufficient fight against Godzilla!

[kent]

Kaiju are Japanese,Kong is American.
ALL american Monsters(kaiju)have been killed by bullets,or somesorta' man-made weapon.Kaiju have withstood intire tank brigades,the next generation in Weaponary the list goes on.

Would not you call the Oxygen Destroyer a man-made weapon? The answer to that is a no-brainer yes.
It doesn't matter if a monster is American, Japanese, or German, or whatever region they may come from. Kaiju is just the Japanese way of saying "monster." No matter how you look at it, we are all saying the same thing whether we are saying the word Kaiju or Monster. And it does not matter whether they get killed by bullets, or another kaiju. The simplest way of coming to a conclusion in this debate is to look the term "monster" up in a dictionary. That will give you all the info. you need to decide whether certain creatures can/should be called kaiju or not.

[MirrenDono]

My definition of a kaiju-

Any giant or large monster/animal that has super strength or abilities, can fight off military attacks, destroys cities or fights other giant monsters/animals. One does not need all of these attributes to be a kaiju, but a few

So yes, even the only mere 50 foot monsters in my Legend of Zelda fics are kaiju ;)

[godofPH]

My definition of a kaiju-

Any giant or large monster/animal that has super strength or abilities, can fight off military attacks, destroys cities or fights other giant monsters/animals. One does not need all of these attributes to be a kaiju, but a few

So yes, even the only mere 50 foot monsters in my Legend of Zelda fics are kaiju ;)
Thats the kind of response I like, an open minded Kaiju fan.

[Wendigo_Rex]

I think real Kaiju are like around godzilla and gamera levels. In games like WOTM they are Kaiju becuse they have the over all elements. In ( monster) movies like 8 legged freaks and Deep rising I do count as Kaiju, but on a lesser level. Like Movie Monster Kaiju, they are big from there normal size,(like in 8LF) or cause havoc on peolpe but they are not big enough to destroy a building.

[Saruman]

Do I have to give MY deffinition of a monster... And last time I checked, Freddy, Jason, Pinhead, Dracula, and Wolfman are human.

Anyway... MM's deffinition of a monster-

Any creature in a movie, book, comic, cartoon, game, and TV show that doesn't have any relation to a human. A monster isn't a zombie (Jason, Dracula) but can be something brought back from the dead, a real monster (Sealizar). They can't be man at one point, then a monster, and back, but there are a few exceptions (Orochi). Monsters can also be robotic (MechaGodzilla). Monsters can be from small to big. They can be demons like Pumkinhead, Majin, and Creeper.
---

Happy? If they follow those rules, you will sooner or later find a stat of them on my website.
So then you are going to be listing every PokeMon on your site then? How about all the DigiMon? All the monsters from Yu-Gi-Oh?

Monsters can't talk but can be telepathic
Monsters can't be intelligent? Since when?

So Fin Fang Foom wouldn't be considered a Kaiju simply because he is an intelligent dragon? What about an Efreeti, they are intelligent fire elementals? What about Smaug from The Hobbit, another intelligent dragon? Many Demons/Devils are capable of human speech, so because of that they wouldn't be considered kaiju? Sorry, but they are every bit as much monsters as is Godzilla.

Oh and Dracula is a Vampire, not a Zombie.

[Saruman]

Post your thoughts on this topic that I think is important. Me, I think they should count as Kaiju.
The simple answer is No, unless the game in question is directly related to a movie like Godzilla, such as GDAMM or G:STE or if it is a tribute to American Giant Monster movies like WOTM is.

Kaiju in it's purest form simply means "monster." But in our specific fandom, we have taken that word and the word DaiKaiju to represent a very specific genra of films and monsters. Even the Japanese typically use the word to describe specifically Godzilla/Gamera/Mothra type movies, they have other words used to describe the more "human type" monsters.

Put it this way, what is the first thing you think of when someone says the word "Kaiju?" That should be your entire answer right there.

[The Great MM]

So then you are going to be listing every PokeMon on your site then? How about all the DigiMon? All the monsters from Yu-Gi-Oh?


Monsters can't be intelligent? Since when?

So Fin Fang Foom wouldn't be considered a Kaiju simply because he is an intelligent dragon? What about an Efreeti, they are intelligent fire elementals? What about Smaug from The Hobbit, another intelligent dragon? Many Demons/Devils are capable of human speech, so because of that they wouldn't be considered kaiju? Sorry, but they are every bit as much monsters as is Godzilla.

Oh and Dracula is a Vampire, not a Zombie.

Do Poke'mon, Digimon, and Yu-Gi-Oh monsters count as kaiju to me...yes. Will they be added to Monster Galaxy...no.

I never said a monster can't be intellgent, but there is a limit when your talking about my deffinition. Do I count Drake or what ever his name is from "Dragon Heart" a monster...no. Fin Fang Foom, I don't know much on him. And I know next to nothing about the Lord of the Rings monsters, just Barlog (the spider), that huge water octpus thing, and the huge elephant creatures.

[HolyGoji777]

to me kaiju means this...giant monster smashing things but the FOCUS of the movie/game would be on the monster or monsters itself as in countless films i dont need to mention. this is the reason why i DONT consider the stay puff marshmallow man from ghostbusters a kaiju. i dont consider pokemon, digimon, yu gi oh or anything of that sort to be kaiju either. and i sure dont call freddy or jason kaiju. i know what kaiju actually means in japanese but in this fandom it means something different.

[Saruman]

Do Poke'mon, Digimon, and Yu-Gi-Oh monsters count as kaiju to me...yes. Will they be added to Monster Galaxy...no.
Funny, did you not say this above?
Happy? If they follow those rules, you will sooner or later find a stat of them on my website.
So for all your posturing, even you don't follow your own rules. If they are Kaiju as you say, then they have every right to be on your site, don't they? Or do we have a double standard going on here?

I never said a monster can't be intellgent, but there is a limit when your talking about my deffinition.
Oh, ok, so once again we have special rules that must be followed for every part of your definition. Seems to me that you don't even know your own definition, because when questions are posed to you you can't even give a direct response, but rather a generic "there is a limit when talking about my definition."

Do I count Drake or what ever his name is from "Dragon Heart" a monster...no.
Now you say you don't coun't drake, but you give no reason as to why that is, care to enlighten us?

Fin Fang Foom, I don't know much on him.
Then do a little research and find out who he is. The internet is very useful for this type of stuff.;)

And I know next to nothing about the Lord of the Rings monsters, just Barlog (the spider), that huge water octpus thing, and the huge elephant creatures.
That is painfully obvious.

The Balrog is the huge Flaming Demon that Gandalf fought, not the spider.
The Spider is Shelob.
The Huge Water Octupus Thing is the Watcher in the Water, also can be called a Kraken.
The Huge Elephants are called Oliphants.

[Saruman]

to me kaiju means this...giant monster smashing things but the FOCUS of the movie/game would be on the monster or monsters itself as in countless films i dont need to mention. this is the reason why i DONT consider the stay puff marshmallow man from ghostbusters a kaiju. i dont consider pokemon, digimon, yu gi oh or anything of that sort to be kaiju either. and i sure dont call freddy or jason kaiju. i know what kaiju actually means in japanese but in this fandom it means something different.
Exactly, this fandom is about Kaiju. Stuff like PokeMon, Staypuft, GigaBowser, Perfect Chaos, Freddy, Jason, Dracula, Pumkinhead, Creeper, ect... while they may be monsters simply are NOT Kaiju in the context of this fandom.

[Solar_Behemoth]

Pokemon? Digimon? Yu Gi Oh??
Oh jeez I definitely do not call those kaiju! :crazy:
Next in the KK Forums: Pikachu vs. Anguirus - kaiju are scaled to the same size :laugh:

Anyways, I agree mostly with what Saruman is saying when it comes down to what a kaiju is and if video game monsters should be one.

A giant monster in a video game should only be considered a kaiju if it has any connection based on a real monster. Take GDAMM for an example- that is based on Godzilla so I think there is such thing as a kaiju called "GDAMM Anguirus."
Then comes all these other crazy Japanese games like Zelda, etc. Those are not kaiju. Is GigaBowser a kaiju? Oh god no, he isn't even big enough to be one! Are any from War of the Monsters a kaiju. Nope.

And any human-sized monsters (that don't evolve into a kaiju) should be called kaiju.

However, unlike most people, I consider Meganulon, the human-sized creature that evolves in Meganula, should be called one. This is simply because of the fact that is from the same family as a kaiju.

Is Baby Godzilla a kaiju? Yes- it is connected to a kaiju- Godzilla.
Is some goofy reptile Pokemon that is the same size as Baby G a kaiju? Nope.

[godofPH]

Exactly, this fandom is about Kaiju. Stuff like PokeMon, Staypuft, GigaBowser, Perfect Chaos, Freddy, Jason, Dracula, Pumkinhead, Creeper, ect... while they may be monsters simply are NOT Kaiju in the context of this fandom.
Jeez, there are so many good matchups possible if you ppl would accept video game monsters as kaiju. I never said I thought pokemon and yugioh were kaiju. I said I thought the huge *** boss monster destroying a city is a kaiju. I said the thirty foot secret opponent monster is a kaiju. Have I, the person who started this thread, said that pokemon are Kaiju? No. Even though some pokemon and yugioh monsters I really think could be considered kaiju, ppl here are just 2 stubborn to accept anything thats not Japanese. Now if you play SADX and see the final boss fight, you'll think that perfect chaos is a kaiju. He does all kind of kaiju things. He destroys citys, is very big, defeats man's weapons, causes wiespread panic and destruction. Now if that isn't considered a kaiju, goji shouldn't be considered on then.

[Saruman]

Jeez, there are so many good matchups possible if you ppl would accept video game monsters as kaiju. I never said I thought pokemon and yugioh were kaiju. I said I thought the huge *** boss monster destroying a city is a kaiju. I said the thirty foot secret opponent monster is a kaiju. Have I, the person who started this thread, said that pokemon are Kaiju? No. Even though some pokemon and yugioh monsters I really think could be considered kaiju, ppl here are just 2 stubborn to accept anything thats not Japanese. Now if you play SADX and see the final boss fight, you'll think that perfect chaos is a kaiju. He does all kind of kaiju things. He destroys citys, is very big, defeats man's weapons, causes wiespread panic and destruction. Now if that isn't considered a kaiju, goji shouldn't be considered on then.
I have played the game, I know who he is, and just an FYI, CharlesRB has brought up this very issue with Perfect Chaos almost 3 years ago now, and my answer is still the same, that being a big fat NO.

What the hell are you talking about people being to stubborn to accept anything that isn't Japanese? Perfect Chaos IS JAPANESE, GigaBowser IS JAPANESE, the majority of your gaming monsters are JAPANESE. Sorry, It has nothing to do with what country they are from, it has to do with the subject matter and the intent.

There are alot of really huge Final Fantasy monsters throughout that series as well, but I wouldn't consider any of them Kaiju either, and FF IS JAPANESE.

For something to be a Kaiju it must first be based on a Kaiju MOVIE. If it doesn't have a movie which spawned other things, then for the most part I don't consider it a Kaiju. The exception is if it is something done with the serious intent to pay tribut to those types of films. Examples would be the "Tokyo Storm Warning" comic, RPG's like "Monster Island" & "Giant Monster Rampage," video games like "King of the Monsters" & "War of the Monsters." The Kaiju must also be the focus of the material as well. There are other things as well, but that is the bulk of it.

Now do Perfect Chaos & GigaBowser meet any of that? NO they dont.

As I said before, ask yourself this. What is the first thing you think of when someone says the name "Kaiju?" I can guarantee you that it isn't Perfect Chaos or GigaBowser.

[godofPH]

I have played the game, I know who he is, and just an FYI, CharlesRB has brought up this very issue with Perfect Chaos almost 3 years ago now, and my answer is still the same, that being a big fat NO.

What the hell are you talking about people being to stubborn to accept anything that isn't Japanese? Perfect Chaos IS JAPANESE, GigaBowser IS JAPANESE, the majority of your gaming monsters are JAPANESE. Sorry, It has nothing to do with what country they are from, it has to do with the subject matter and the intent.

There are alot of really huge Final Fantasy monsters throughout that series as well, but I wouldn't consider any of them Kaiju either, and FF IS JAPANESE.

For something to be a Kaiju it must first be based on a Kaiju MOVIE. If it doesn't have a movie which spawned other things, then for the most part I don't consider it a Kaiju. The exception is if it is something done with the serious intent to pay tribut to those types of films. Examples would be the "Tokyo Storm Warning" comic, RPG's like "Monster Island" & "Giant Monster Rampage," video games like "King of the Monsters" & "War of the Monsters." The Kaiju must also be the focus of the material as well. There are other things as well, but that is the bulk of it.

Now do Perfect Chaos & GigaBowser meet any of that? NO they dont.

As I said before, ask yourself this. What is the first thing you think of when someone says the name "Kaiju?" I can guarantee you that it isn't Perfect Chaos or GigaBowser.
Like I said, STUBBORN!!!!!!!!!!!! You won't accept something thats not from ceratin movies. For god's sake, let loose off the reins and try something new.

[MirrenDono]

O_O

Something tells me you're gonna regret saying that...


Originally posted by Saruman
As I said before, ask yourself this. What is the first thing you think of when someone says the name "Kaiju?" I can guarantee you that it isn't Perfect Chaos or GigaBowser.
My own personal answer? Okay-

Any giant or large monster/animal that has super strength or abilities, can fight off military attacks, destroys cities or fights other giant monsters/animals. One does not need all of these attributes to be a kaiju, but a few

[Saruman]

Like I said, STUBBORN!!!!!!!!!!!! You won't accept something thats not from ceratin movies. For god's sake, let loose off the reins and try something new.
It's not stubborn, he simply doesn't fit with what a Kaiju is, simple as that. Are either of those two, Perfect Chaos & GigaBowser, the main focus and characters of the respective games they are in? No the main characters and focus are a Hedgehog and a Plumber.

Those characters are not intended to be kaiju in the sense that Godzilla, Gamera and Mothra are. Are they both big, yes they are, but size alone doesn't put them in the same category. Their intent by the makers of the video games is not in making a Godzilla like creature, they are just making a big badass villian, like most games have.

And as I said, they have NO movie that they are based from, which is an absolute must, with the few exceptions done as tribute to those types of films, which I have already said.

Maybe you should take your own advice, and stop being so Stubborn, especially when your debating something that quite simply is never going to happen.

[Gorjirus]

Jeez, there are so many good matchups possible if you ppl would accept video game monsters as kaiju.

So the entire point of this is you want to put them in KK for a fight? Besides, why argue? The rules are rules and there should be no need to change them. If Saruman doesn't want some things counted as kaiju (and I think that having the Staypuff as a kaiju is stupid) then we should just deal with it. Post on what we have, not trying to be able to post more fights.

Besides, doesn't Lord K have a Fantasy Battlezone board somewhere?

[Raptor]

Saruman pretty much nailed it with the MOVIE background being such a big part of it. We're here for Kaiju EIGA, not video games. It's the MEDIUM these creatures are found in and where they do their thing, so to speak. Everyone wants to make a MOVIE about giant monsters trashing cities, not games, so they can tell a STORY. My personal problem with the game characters is that the player CONTROLS them. Real kaiju do THEIR own thing. :D

Besides, do video games get the same attention that films do or are seen by as many people, have as much publicity about them to get folks to check them out, generate merchandizing as Godzilla & Co. have and become international cultural icons? Besides, they don't have the "substance" of the movie kaiju, especially the ones portrayed by real live actors. A digital monster doing its thing in a gaming console just doesn't compare to the "big guys" up on the silver screen.
We'll save the debate about American '50's critters for another day. :laugh:

ADDITIONAL: Here's Lord K.'s FANTASY BATTLEZONE ARENA (http://frost.bbboy.net/gardinerx-viewforum?forum=5).

[The Great MM]

It's not stubborn, he simply doesn't fit with what a Kaiju is, simple as that. Are either of those two, Perfect Chaos & GigaBowser, the main focus and characters of the respective games they are in? No the main characters and focus are a Hedgehog and a Plumber.

Those characters are not intended to be kaiju in the sense that Godzilla, Gamera and Mothra are. Are they both big, yes they are, but size alone doesn't put them in the same category. Their intent by the makers of the video games is not in making a Godzilla like creature, they are just making a big badass villian, like most games have.

And as I said, they have NO movie that they are based from, which is an absolute must, with the few exceptions done as tribute to those types of films, which I have already said.

Maybe you should take your own advice, and stop being so Stubborn, especially when your debating something that quite simply is never going to happen.

Ok then Saru, what about Manda? He is a kaiju, but the movie "Atragon" wasn't centered around him, it was about Mu and the Atragon.

The kaiju Maguma from "Gorath" had a small appearance, and he is a kaiju.

Oodako from "King Kong vs. Godzilla" and "War of the Gargantuas" had a VARY small part, and he is considered a kaiju, but I hear people say the Giant Octopus from the "Octopus" and "Octopus 2: River of Fear" arn't kaiju, but are kaiju sized, and even sink ships and such, so why arn't they considered kaiju?

How about the Octalus from Deep Rising, he is kaiju sized.

If mosters like Manda and Maguma are considered kaiju, and they have REALLY small parts in their movies, then tell me, why isn't Perfect Caos or Giga Bowser a kaiju?

And before you say Manda is because he had a part in DAM, you gotta remember, the film wasn't centered on him, he had as much screen time, or even less, then Perect Caos in the game.

[Saruman]

Oodako from "King Kong vs. Godzilla" and "War of the Gargantuas" had a VARY small part, and he is considered a kaiju, but I hear people say the Giant Octopus from the "Octopus" and "Octopus 2: River of Fear" arn't kaiju, but are kaiju sized, and even sink ships and such, so why arn't they considered kaiju?
Pretty easy to figure this one out, they actually WERE IN A KAIJU MOVIE. KKvG and WotG are both Kaiju films, making any monsters that appear alongside them Kaiju as well.
How about the Octalus from Deep Rising, he is kaiju sized.
He would fall into the same category as Gorgo, Reptilicus, The Giant Behemoth, and other similar beasties.
Ok then Saru, what about Manda? He is a kaiju, but the movie "Atragon" wasn't centered around him, it was about Mu and the Atragon.

The kaiju Maguma from "Gorath" had a small appearance, and he is a kaiju.

And before you say Manda is because he had a part in DAM, you gotta remember, the film wasn't centered on him, he had as much screen time, or even less, then Perect Caos in the game.

If mosters like Manda and Maguma are considered kaiju, and they have REALLY small parts in their movies, then tell me, why isn't Perfect Caos or Giga Bowser a kaiju?
For starters, DAM was all about the Kaiju, that was the whole reason the movie was made. It is a Godzilla film, which is why it is in the Godzilla timeline and also included in things like the "Final Wars Box Set. As a Godzilla film it is a Kaiju film, which makes all the monsters appearing in it Kaiju.

Manda while having not much screen time in Atragon, is still an integral part of the movie. Manda is MU's God & Guardian and directly confronts and fights the Atragon as it's biggest opponent. It's also made by the company that has made the most Kaiju films, which they themselves list Manda as. Then he is also covered by his appearance in DAM which again is a Kaiju film.

Maguma, did only have a small part in Gorath and was even removed from the American version. But he was created by Toho as a Kaiju. The entire reason for him being in the film was simply because Toho wanted a Kaiju in it to appeal to people. Toho also lists him in other timelines of Godzilla’s giving him more credibility. So yes he is a Kaiju, not a great one, but one none the less.

[The Great MM]

Pretty easy to figure this one out, they actually WERE IN A KAIJU MOVIE. KKvG and WotG are both Kaiju films, making any monsters that appear alongside them Kaiju as well.


So what your saying...the Giant Octopus in the 2 "Octupus" kaiju movies arn't kaiju because they wern't in kaiju movies...WHAT!? They were giant sized, I would also place money on saying they are even larger then Oodako.

And as much as I agree with you on Maguma, it still doesn't make sence to consider him a kaiju and not someone like Perfect Caos, who also attacked cities and such, but both their game/movie didn't concentrate on them.

Also, then by your deffinition, the Shockilas from "Godzilla 1985" should also be concidered a kaiju by your standards, but its plainfully obvious that he is WAY to small to attack any military vehicles and cause massive damage.

[Solar_Behemoth]

So what your saying...the Giant Octopus in the 2 "Octupus" kaiju movies arn't kaiju because they wern't in kaiju movies...WHAT!? They were giant sized, I would also place money on saying they are even larger then Oodako.

Yeah, I'd definitely consider the giant octopus in those movies as kaiju. It's just in video games and cartoons to me that need to be based on movie monsters. For example, the cartoon Zoids' robots are not kaiju because they are not based on actual kaiju eiga. However, when it comes to video games that are based on kaiju, like GDAMM, those are kaiju.

My definition of a kaiju:

Any unusally large lifeform or artificial lifeform that is from the movies or television of any country or in books, cartoons, and/or video games that are inspired by kaiju eiga or television.

Examples of kaiju:

Octalus
Gorgo
Reptilicus
Dinocroc
Yongary
Baby Zilla (GINO)
Sprectre-man

[The Great MM]

Yeah, I'd definitely consider the giant octopus in those movies as kaiju. It's just in video games and cartoons to me that need to be based on movie monsters. For example, the cartoon Zoids' robots are not kaiju because they are not based on actual kaiju eiga. However, when it comes to video games that are based on kaiju, like GDAMM, those are kaiju.


So then by that deffinition, Bagan isn't a real kaiju, sence he wasn't based on any movie kaiju. Face it, GDAMM Godzilla is as much kaiju as video game monsters like Togera, Super Geon, and many others.

[Gorjirus]

But Bagan is in a game based purely on kaiju. Thus, it can easiy be taken as a kaiju and is readily accepted as one.

[The Great MM]

No it isn't. The SNES Bagan has no characteristics once so ever from the '85 concepts and Mothra concepts. He was as new as Togera sorta speak.

[Angiru-San]

This debate now enters the "Overly Discussed" category..... Pokemon/Digimon/Yugioh as a whole are part of a completely different fandom.

Godzilla/Gamera/Kaiju in general are part of a completely different fandom and basis.

The reasons have been overstated in this topic, and Saruman, Henry, and Reaper are basically correct. Do Godzilla fans go to a Pokemon card tournament just to watch? No...its a completely different thing. Do Pokemon fans come to the forums to discuss what role Mothra will play in GFW? No, Im sure they could care less.

Saruman is not stubborn, he is just correct. Pokemon doesnt belong here, at all. Neither does a Sonic the Hedgehog character, or one from Mario Bros. And once again if you dont like the way this place is run, just leave....maybe you would prefer a Nintendo forum....atleast there you could do your fantasy battles and not whine about it here.

Godzilla and Pokemon are not a part of, nor ever will be, the same fandom. Get ust to it.

[The Great MM]

This debate now enters the "Overly Discussed" category..... Pokemon/Digimon/Yugioh as a whole are part of a completely different fandom.

Godzilla/Gamera/Kaiju in general are part of a completely different fandom and basis.

The reasons have been overstated in this topic, and Saruman, Henry, and Reaper are basically correct. Do Godzilla fans go to a Pokemon card tournament just to watch? No...its a completely different thing. Do Pokemon fans come to the forums to discuss what role Mothra will play in GFW? No, Im sure they could care less.

Saruman is not stubborn, he is just correct. Pokemon doesnt belong here, at all. Neither does a Sonic the Hedgehog character, or one from Mario Bros. And once again if you dont like the way this place is run, just leave....maybe you would prefer a Nintendo forum....atleast there you could do your fantasy battles and not whine about it here.

Godzilla and Pokemon are not a part of, nor ever will be, the same fandom. Get ust to it.

I don't know if you release this or not...but noone is taling about Poke'mon right now...

[Angiru-San]

I don't know if you release this or not...but noone is taling about Poke'mon right now...

I think you were trying to be sarcastic and offend me, but Ill chose to be civilized. I was using it as a generalized statement toward my opinion on the subject. That ok with you?

[Raptor]

As far as Kaiju Karnage is concerned, Bagan is right up there with Armored Mothra and Majin. As well, NO ONE has seen him in action on the screen, be it a theater or 19" Sony hooked up to a VCR running a you-know-what. :look: Bagan just seems to invite the "He winz Bcaus hes soooooooooooooooo powerful!!!!!!111!!" type posts against about ANY "film" kaiju. At least those a good number of folks have seen invites REASONABLE DEBATE as to their powers and actions.

[The Great MM]

I think you were trying to be sarcastic and offend me, but Ill chose to be civilized. I was using it as a generalized statement toward my opinion on the subject. That ok with you?

I wasn't being sarcastic...

[Angiru-San]

I wasn't being sarcastic...

Ok, thats why I said I think. But I still stand by the fact that I was just posting my opinion, and it doesnt matter if the current topic was Pokemon or not.

Sorry MM, I jumped because the Mod's have clarified this so very many times. It just ticks me off when people cannot process the fact that what the Mod says....goes. It shouldt have to be over stated.

[Raptor]

Get back on topic, people! :angry:

[Solar_Behemoth]

So then by that deffinition, Bagan isn't a real kaiju, sence he wasn't based on any movie kaiju. Face it, GDAMM Godzilla is as much kaiju as video game monsters like Togera, Super Geon, and many others.

Actually, to me, I never really considered him a real kaiju... he, of course, would have been one if he was in an actual movie. This is one of the reasons why I never used him for KK battles. Bagan is as much of a "kaiju" as Garasharp is, IMO.

[Saruman]

So what your saying...the Giant Octopus in the 2 "Octupus" kaiju movies arn't kaiju because they wern't in kaiju movies...WHAT!? They were giant sized, I would also place money on saying they are even larger then Oodako.
Correct, I don't consider them kaiju, I consider them Giant American Monsters, just as with the Giant Squid from "The Beast." They fall into the same category as Giant American Snake movies or Giant American Crocodile movies.

And as much as I agree with you on Maguma, it still doesn't make sence to consider him a kaiju and not someone like Perfect Caos, who also attacked cities and such, but both their game/movie didn't concentrate on them.
The difference which you seem to be completely missing, is that TOHO actually put Maguma into the movie so that having a Kaiju in the movie would make it draw more people. Maguma was made with the intent of being a Kaiju by the company that started them.

Perfect Chaos is just a boss character in a video game and isn't any different than any other games boss monsters. Play some computer RPG's and see just how powerful some of the bosses in those can be and some of them are wickedly huge, not to mention alot tend to be Gods or Godlike beings.

While were at it we might as well include Zeus, you know the most powerful of the Olympian Gods. He was in a movie, Clash of the Titans, and he was easily bigger than any Kaiju. Hell he could destroy the entire planet and not just a simple city with but a wave of his hand.

Also, then by your deffinition, the Shockilas from "Godzilla 1985" should also be concidered a kaiju by your standards, but its plainfully obvious that he is WAY to small to attack any military vehicles and cause massive damage.
They are Kaiju, I never said that kaiju have to beable to attack and destroy military vehicles, nor did I ever say anything about size. Is Baby Godzilla a Kaiju? Is Little Godzilla? Is the Godzillasaurus a Kaiju? Is the Microscopic Form of Hedorah a Kaiju? Is a Meganula a kaiju? Is the Giant Condor a Kaiju?

The answer to all of those are yes, because they were in actual kaiju films.

Your to hung up on things like the size of the creature, if it destroys cities, and other basic simple things like that, and Kaiju are so much more than that.

Maybe you should start looking at things like the directors intent, the designers intent, how the creature is actually portrayed, it's character and other similar things. There is a vast difference between a Western Kaiju flick and an Eastern Kaiju flick and it has nothing to do with the creatures size or ability to cause damage to cities.

[The Great MM]

Correct, I don't consider them kaiju, I consider them Giant American Monsters, just as with the Giant Squid from "The Beast." They fall into the same category as Giant American Snake movies or Giant American Crocodile movies.


The difference which you seem to be completely missing, is that TOHO actually put Maguma into the movie so that having a Kaiju in the movie would make it draw more people. Maguma was made with the intent of being a Kaiju by the company that started them.

Perfect Chaos is just a boss character in a video game and isn't any different than any other games boss monsters. Play some computer RPG's and see just how powerful some of the bosses in those can be and some of them are wickedly huge, not to mention alot tend to be Gods or Godlike beings.

While were at it we might as well include Zeus, you know the most powerful of the Olympian Gods. He was in a movie, Clash of the Titans, and he was easily bigger than any Kaiju. Hell he could destroy the entire planet and not just a simple city with but a wave of his hand.


They are Kaiju, I never said that kaiju have to beable to attack and destroy military vehicles, nor did I ever say anything about size. Is Baby Godzilla a Kaiju? Is Little Godzilla? Is the Godzillasaurus a Kaiju? Is the Microscopic Form of Hedorah a Kaiju? Is a Meganula a kaiju? Is the Giant Condor a Kaiju?

The answer to all of those are yes, because they were in actual kaiju films.

Your to hung up on things like the size of the creature, if it destroys cities, and other basic simple things like that, and Kaiju are so much more than that.

Maybe you should start looking at things like the directors intent, the designers intent, how the creature is actually portrayed, it's character and other similar things. There is a vast difference between a Western Kaiju flick and an Eastern Kaiju flick and it has nothing to do with the creatures size or ability to cause damage to cities.

To the octopus comment... yea ok, to one's own I guess...

I'm not hung on kaiju having to do that, thats completely different, that DAIkaiju. Kaiju simply means monster, thats the reason I considered creatures such as Pumpkinhead kaiju.

So if I go to Japan, ask Toho if I can make a movie about a cop...and place a giant frog attacking a boat in the middle to draw crowds would be considered a kaiju in your book because I added him to draw crowds....yea...ok...

[Saruman]

Wow, I guess it's something that you just wont ever understand if you haven't gotten it yet. Which is sad for you, because it shows that you are completely missing alot in what you are watching, or I should say not watching.

I guess you can lead a horse to water but you still can't make him drink.

[The Great MM]

No, its like I said to many people, everyone has a different out look on kaiju/monsters.

[Jet Jaguar]

I guess you can lead a horse to water but you still can't make him drink.

OR

You can lead a fan to Reason, but ya can't make 'em think

:darklord:

[The Great MM]

OR

You can lead a fan to Reason, but ya can't make 'em think

:darklord:

OR

You can lead a fan to make them beleve your beliefs, but ya can't, make them agree

:darklord:

[Solar_Behemoth]

OR

You can lead a fan to make them beleve your beliefs, but ya can't, make them agree

:darklord:

LOL, MM that was great! :laugh:

Opinions are opinions people! ;)

[Saruman]

Opinions are opinions people! ;)
Actually Henry it has nothing to do with opinion. MM is simply looking at it from one perspective, that being they are all monsters and nothing more.

As I said he is missing out on ALOT of things because of that. There is much more to being a Kaiju than just being a big monster that can destroy cities, which as you can see by all of his posts is his sole reason for thinking something like Perfect Chaos is a Kaiju.

I can go out and club a girl over the head with a club and drag her off to a cave, but that doesn't make me a caveman now does it.

[godofPH]

OR

You can lead a fan to make them beleve your beliefs, but ya can't, make them agree

:darklord:
ok then. I'm going to give up on this since Saruman won't give in. I'll save my Perfect Chaos vs Goji idea for a site I hope to make in the future.

[Saruman]

ok then. I'm going to give up on this since Saruman won't give in. I'll save my Perfect Chaos vs Goji idea for a site I hope to make in the future.
Just look back up in the thread a little ways, Raptor already pointed out that Lord K has a forum just for those types of fights, she even provided you a link to it.

[The Great MM]

Actually Henry it has nothing to do with opinion. MM is simply looking at it from one perspective, that being they are all monsters and nothing more.

As I said he is missing out on ALOT of things because of that. There is much more to being a Kaiju than just being a big monster that can destroy cities, which as you can see by all of his posts is his sole reason for thinking something like Perfect Chaos is a Kaiju.

I can go out and club a girl over the head with a club and drag her off to a cave, but that doesn't make me a caveman now does it.

No, your getting KAIJU and DAIKAIJU mixed up. Its an opinion based on translation, kaiju=monster, daikaiju= giant monster.

Do I consider someone like Pumkinhead a daikaiju? No, do I considered Pumpkinhead a kaiju, yes, because he is simply a monster and not a giant monster.

Anyway, like Hank, said, opinions are opinions.

EDIT- Or is there a word for human sized monsters also?

[Saruman]

No, your getting KAIJU and DAIKAIJU mixed up. Its an opinion based on translation, kaiju=monster, daikaiju= giant monster.

Do I consider someone like Pumkinhead a daikaiju? No, do I considered Pumpkinhead a kaiju, yes, because he is simply a monster and not a giant monster.
See this is your problem right here. You are simply looking at it in the literal sense of the word and nothing more than that. If its a monster then it's a kaiju and that's all that matters to you.

This is where you simply don't get what myself and others have been trying to tell you. In this fandom, Kaiju or Daikaiju, has taken on a meaning that defines a VERY specific type of Giant Monster. Like any Japanese word, it's meaning can be changed to suite something similar and take on another meaning.

Going by how you define it, ANY monster ever created would be acceptable for use in this fandom. Sorry, but this fandom has nothing to do with things like Dracula, Pumpkinhead, Perfect Chaos, Giga Bowser, PokeMon, Zoids, Yu-Gi-Oh, Star Wars, Star Trek, Aliens, Predators, ect.. None of those things are part of this fandom, they have their own fandoms that they are part of. We don't need all of that junk brought into this fandom, we already have enough stuff to talk about and enough stuff that causes arguments, we don't need another fandoms problems as well. If those things are so important to you, then you can always go to a another fandom and talk about it, thats what I do. If I want to talk about Transformers, then I am going to go to a Transformers site, I'm not going to go to a Zoids site to talk about Transformers just because they are both big robots. Just like I wouldn't go to a Transformers or Zoids site to talk about Getter Robo/Magzinger/GaiKing/Combattler/Raydeen or any other of the Super Robots.

EDIT- Or is there a word for human sized monsters also?
Yes there is, though I don't know it off-hand, I'm sure that anyone that watched things like Kamen Rider or PR could give you the correct word(s).

[ALLOSAURZ]

Just think of it like this. Would you call Bugs Bunny, simpson's, family guy etc anime?

[Solar_Behemoth]

This is where you simply don't get what myself and others have been trying to tell you. In this fandom, Kaiju or Daikaiju, has taken on a meaning that defines a VERY specific type of Giant Monster. Like any Japanese word, it's meaning can be changed to suite something similar and take on another meaning.


You're right there, Jeff.

I remember talking to J.D. Lees and I insisted that fans should never call Godzilla, Rodan, etc. not a kaiju, but a daikaiju, because that is the wrong meaning. But he told me a similiar type of thing you just said...

Kaiju and daikaiju are both the same things in this fandom, and I recall Lees saying "It's the popular meaning of the word that matters, not what it really means, in fandom"

Besides, people don't include Pumpkinhead, Mole People, etc. in the Kaiju Karnage for a reason. ;)

[The Great MM]

Well...now we get into fandom...

Don't know if you know this, I'M NOT A GODZILLA FAN, I'm A MONSTER FAN. That could be the reason on our different outlooks.

Well...now its timed to be flammed and told to leave cause I said I'm not just a Godzilla fan...

[Gorjirus]

Don't hold your breath.

There is nothing wrong with being a monster fan. It seems that this topic has moved off from its original point: Should Giant Monsters in Games be considered as kaiju? (And, in essence, be eligible for Kaiju Karnage).

Personally, you can consider whatever you want as a kaiju, that is your choice. But for use in Kaiju Karnage, only generally recognized kaiju (as admitted by the Adms and Mods) should be used. In fact, I think that very thing (or close to it) are in the oft ignored rules thread.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

Well...now we get into fandom...

Don't know if you know this, I'M NOT A GODZILLA FAN, I'm A MONSTER FAN. That could be the reason on our different outlooks.

Well...now its timed to be flammed and told to leave cause I said I'm not just a Godzilla fan...

Boohoo..."would you like some cheese with that wine?"

Geon and those would be considerd KAiju,becuase its a sort of Parody of the Kaiju/Monster Fandom.So is War Of The Monsters.

[The Great MM]

Boohoo..."would you like some cheese with that wine?"


And what is your problem all of a sudden? I wasn't even directing that towards you. And when was I wining, I stated the truth, I'm not a Godzilla fan, I'm a monster fan.

[Gorjirus]

Boohoo..."would you like some cheese with that wine?"


Good Grief.

Don't you see that is the exact reaction he was expecting? Why do that? Is it warranted? No. He was just stating his opinion and, knowing how some people here tend to react, expected that.

Why couldn't we just do the unexpected for once? I was hoping that the "Don't hold your breath" would let people know that that shouldn't happen (him getting "flammed" and whatnot).

[godofPH]

Don't hold your breath.

There is nothing wrong with being a monster fan. It seems that this topic has moved off from its original point: Should Giant Monsters in Games be considered as kaiju? (And, in essence, be eligible for Kaiju Karnage).

Personally, you can consider whatever you want as a kaiju, that is your choice. But for use in Kaiju Karnage, only generally recognized kaiju (as admitted by the Adms and Mods) should be used. In fact, I think that very thing (or close to it) are in the oft ignored rules thread.
Now someone actually trys to answer the original question! But sadly, I think the video game giant monsters will never be able to enter Kaiju colusseum.

[The Great MM]

No so. I made plety of battles using video game kaiju...

Togera vs. Showa Gamera
SNES Bagan vs. SpaceGodzilla
Super Geon vs. Showa Godzilla
WOTM Kaiju vs. Toho Kaiju

[godofPH]

No so. I made plety of battles using video game kaiju...

Togera vs. Showa Gamera
SNES Bagan vs. SpaceGodzilla
Super Geon vs. Showa Godzilla
WOTM Kaiju vs. Toho Kaiju
I made some fights with Gigabowser, but this is the response I got, "GIGABOWSER ISN'T A KAIJU!" Now I would have made more fights with video game monsters if ppl didn't yell at me when I threw Gigabowser in KK.

[Angiru-San]

I made some fights with Gigabowser, but this is the response I got, "GIGABOWSER ISN'T A KAIJU!" Now I would have made more fights with video game monsters if ppl didn't yell at me when I threw Gigabowser in KK.

No offense at all, but you still seem to be missing the point. Bagan is official Toho Material. He was a concept once concidered for several Kaiju movies, then finally put in an official Toho Godzilla game. He has fought the big G himself. Therefore he has a connection.

Togera and the others from WOTM are blatant ripoffs of other major Kaiju Creations (godzilla, kong, ultraman, etc). Therefore they also have a connection. And the fact that they undergo the EXACT same things that the Kaiju we are here to celebrate do.....thats another strong factor.

Do you know what Im talking about (not being sarcastic)???

[Saruman]

I made some fights with Gigabowser, but this is the response I got, "GIGABOWSER ISN'T A KAIJU!" Now I would have made more fights with video game monsters if ppl didn't yell at me when I threw Gigabowser in KK.
Have you even read any of this discussion? Because if you had, then you would already have your answer, and many times over.

You have to look at the material and figure out what the intention of it was.

Games like 'War of the Monsters,' is a game designed as a tribute to American Giant Monster movies, like King Kong, The Deadly Mantis, THEM, ect... Thus they are acceptable for use in KK.

The same goes for games like 'King of the Monsters,' that was designed to mimic/mock Japanese Kaiju films, like Godzilla. So they are also useable in the KK section.

Anything from a Gamera or Godzilla video game is acceptable because that is approved by Daiei and Toho respectively.

Giga Bowser is not acceptable because he is simply an end boss for a fighting game that is not intended to relate to something like Godzilla. The same goes for Perfect Chaos, hes an end boss for a Sonic Game. The monsters from Final Fantasy are unacceptable.

This isn't a difficult concept to figure out, it's actually very easy. But if you are not sure if something would be acceptable, then just ask before posting a battle. Most regular members that post in the KK section can usually tell you if something is ok or not.

[godofPH]

Would the Primal Rage monsters be acceptable for KK?

[MirrenDono]

^ I'm pretty sure, I've seen several fights with them

I think it's pretty stupid some big monsters are allowed in the KK while others who are very close to kaiju aren't. But meh, my opinion never really gets far on here...>_>