Why do people hate Mothra's transformations in the Mothra trilogy so much?

[EternalMothra]

I don't understand why everyone hates Mothra's transfromations in the Mothra trilogy. Now that there is word of a new Mothra called Fire Mothra going around, people are starting to complain about yet another transformation. What's wrong with them? Yeah she transforms a lot, but it makes her more unique than before. Why do people hate it so much? Is it because it's Mothra or something? They're other kaiju that transform a lot. Destroyah is one, King Ghidorah has many different forms. Why not Mothra? She is as popular as both of them, and she deserves to display her power other kaiju fans. This thread is not to pester people about it, I just would like to know why people hate the fact that Mothra transformes a few times.

[MasteroftheSwarm]

Because it's BORING as hell. If a character is facing too powerful foes that he/she has to transform into a new form everytime to defeat them, then it's time to redefine some of the fight scenes...

[EternalMothra]

Destoroyah and King Ghidorah don't pull transformations outta their *** in each of their movies. Destoroyah makes sence, he isn't a singal monster, he is a species of his own, Ghidrah, if your talking about the versions of Showa, Heisei, and Millenium, only has a few.Mothra doesn't pull all of her transformations out of her ***. In ROM(1) she was mutated when she absorbed the power of the ancient tree, and the larva was born too early, which also added in with the mutation. In ROM 3, Mothra was cocooned 130,000,000 years in the past, and to sit and wait that long in the cocoon, there would be lots of mutation and evolutions, that's why Armor Mothra is so powerful. Mothra also transformed into Eternal Mothra because after expending so much energy while using her transendence destiny attack, and also bearing all of that armor, I'm sure it weakened her body. Mothra is a powerful kaiju, and she describes her power in a different way than other kaiju.

[The Great MM]

In ROM 3, Mothra was cocooned 130,000,000 years in the past, and to sit and wait that long in the cocoon

That IS pulling a move outta her ***. Theres not one explanation on why this happened and 100% no logic either.

[Charles RB]

I can take one or two forms (Aqua Mothra, for example, is a necessary one) but the ROM trilogy really takes the mickey- a new form or two in every movie, with new special uber-powers so she can overpower the monster with flashiness. That's far too much like Digimon, but in Digimon the bad guys get to put up a better fight for the most part and we don't get complete out-of-arse transformations like with Armour Mothra.

And she didn't get that form from evolution as there was no environment or outside stimulii to provoke any evolution. She was in a cocoon!

[The Great MM]

^If dinosaurs some how lived up to our time, do you think they'd look the same, noooo, because there would be evolution. Here's the definition of evolution: to develope gradually over time. That is what happened to Rainbow Mothra....

For heaven sake, use your imagination!

Evolution is a change in species not a singal organisim. What Mothra did has no explenation, no logic, nothing at all. So, its pulling a move outta her ***, its as bad as DBZ.

[Shin lvl2 Goji]

I think the first one was as far as it should've gone. It should've been the upper limit of transformations and the others stretched it way too far. The first time I saw Mothra Leo I thought he was way overpowered with a ridiculous amount of beams and powers. As if Mothra Leo wasn't overpowered enough there was Aqua Mothra which doesn't really make sense and then Armor Mothra has an unholy amount of power. About the Fire Mothra thing I don't put that in the same boat at all. It was said that in Japanese mythos moths on fire were common so it's part mythological, which adds a bit of sense to why Mothra has that power. Also fire is a more natural thing instead of laser beams coming from every place imaginable. So Fire Mothra I have no problem with and I don't classify it with any of these RoM transformations. The reason why people hate them is because they're too over the top and giving a moth powers that don't even make sense and are just too much. Godzilla never got mega-hyper-super powers like these. (unless you count SuperGodzilla from the game)

[Saruman]

Godzilla never got mega-hyper-super powers like these. (unless you count SuperGodzilla from the game)
What movies are you watching? Godzilla more than any other Kaiju has been given MORE power-ups than any other Kaiju, and almost all of his make absolutely no sense what so ever.

Evolution is a change in species not a singal organisim. What Mothra did has no explenation, no logic, nothing at all. So, its pulling a move outta her ***, its as bad as DBZ.
As for Mothra in the ROM Trilogy, they are TRANSFORMATIONS not evolution, big difference there. If you follow along with the stories and pay attention they fully explain every single one of them.

Larva to Mothra Leo - This is the first time the larva transforms. The larva already fought Death Ghidorah and new that it was not going to have enough power when it transformed. So it did what it should have done, if found a natural power source in the Tree of Life and used that to enhance it's transformation making him more powerful.

Mothra Leo to Aqua Mothra/Rainbow Mothra - This one is pretty easy to figure out, it's the base of the movie. Mothra Leo wasn't able to stop Dagarah, so the Princess gave him the power of Nili Kani to make him transform him and make him powerful enough to defeat Dagarah. Leo never asked for the power, he was given the power by the Princess so that he could protect Nili Kani and everyone else from Dagarah.

Rainbow Mothra to Armored Mothra/Eternal Mothra - This is the easiest one to get. Mothra went back in time and knew that he didn't defeat CG in the past. So the larva of that time cocooned him and he stayed in that cocoon until he knew when GKG would appear. Now staying in that cocoon he was drawing in power from the earth for 130 Million years. He was also in a cocoon, what happens to things in a cocoon, they TRANSFORM. In this case he transformed into one of the most powerful Kaiju going, but it took 130 Million years to get to that point.

People need to realize that the Mothra trilogy isn't a Godzilla movie. The Kaiju in these films are really insanely powerful, and they are well more powerful than the the version of Mothra that begins the movie, which is why he always gets beat so baddly. This also forces them to increase Mothra's power during the film so that he can defeat his foes. If he can't beat them to begin the movie and he gets so soundly beaten, then if he doesn't get a huge power boost he isn't going to defeat any of the Kaiju he faces.

The real difference between Mothra and Godzilla, is that while Godzilla got lots of strange abilities that were mostly harmless. Godzilla had the advantage of having other Kaiju as his allies when defeating most of his foes, both in the Showa and Heisei Era. Godzilla really didn't need some super power just to defeat foes because he had an ally helping him out, though in the Heisei Era he did get both help from other Kaiju and a Super Beam or power to help him defeat his opponent. In the Millennium Series this really only happened in GMK. Mothra doesn't get a Kaiju to help him in the ROM series, so they only really have one choice and that is giving him more power.

When you look at both Godzilla and Mothra and lay it all out, Godzilla has gotten not only more powers, but also had the allies as well. Godzilla is a much bigger offender in this department than Mothra ever has been.

[Cole Deschain]

^ Ah, Jeff, hate to disagree here- It's not the amount that annoys some. It's the insane power level Armor Mothra in particular receives. (To say nothing of the obvious DBZ-ness of the whole affair, but that's really a matter of taste)

Not only was Armor Mothra powerful enough to beat Grand Ghidorah- that, I could almost take, particularly after the idiotic amounts of whupass they gave Grand Ghidorah (yes, I said it. Me, complaining about a Ghidorah's firepower), Armor Mothra killed him with what seemed like minimal effort- which is not only hokey and contrived (which, face it guys, the whole genre is at one time or another), it's actually boring. Instead of thrashing Ghidorah in a knock-down, drag-out fight, Armor Mothra beats him like a red-headed stepchild. It's inane. It's like Ali vs. Liston- You blink? You miss it. Even Showa Godzilla took his lumps before magnetizing Mechagodzilla to his doom. Armor Mothra shrugs off everything GG throws at her, then atomizes the poor thug.

The others really aren't so bad...

Mothra Leo- I loathe beams on Mothra, but Leo I can handle. He's just a tougher version of Rebirth Mothra, and Jeff is quite right here, he had to be.

Aqua Mothra- Oh well, whatever. Sorta cheesy, and I would've liked Dagarah's demise to be less... microscopic. But all in all, no more annoying than usual.

[PyrasTerran]

Destoroyah and King Ghidorah don't pull transformations outta their *** in each of their movies. Destoroyah makes sence, he isn't a singal monster, he is a species of his own, Ghidrah, if your talking about the versions of Showa, Heisei, and Millenium, only has a few.

Funny.. Destroyah seemed to do alot of shapeshifting. And, isn't the Ghidorah in Final Wars a transformation of Monster X?

Evolution is a change in species not a singal organisim. What Mothra did has no explenation, no logic, nothing at all. So, its pulling a move outta her ***, its as bad as DBZ.

An excerpt from the dictionary:

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.

The process of developing.
Gradual development.

Mothra was fighting an aquatic monster, so he evolved to be able to combat underwater. THen he was fighting a pure juggernaut, so he evolved to be a much better physical fighter.

THere was explanation and logic behind her transformations.

[ALLOSAURZ]

I dislike rebirth mothra's transformations because they were cheap. It's like the old Batman vs Superman argument. Imo Superman isn't a superhero because when he does something most the time he isn't in danger seeing how he is immune to almost everything except kryptonite. Everytime SUperman though reaches a new problem he can't solve on his own he pulls another pwer from his *** such as flying through time or juggling planets and what not. That's why I dislike superman. Batma on the other hand is vulnerable to everything. He there is a problem he cannot fix he gets iventive and tries to come up with new ways to solve the problem instead of inventing a new move. which is a problem I have with Gamera. You could argue Godzilla does the same thing but I disagree. Godzilla rarely invents a new power. MOst the time he jut builds upon an old power such as the spiral beam is just a stronger variation of the regular beam or absorbing rodans lifeorce simply because rodan was melting down so the surgeof radioactivity gave his regeneration the boost it needed. Godzilla has only really come up with a completely new power about 1-2 times per series such as during the showa flicks like the absorb lightening to become magnet or flying maneuver or the heisei series with the nuke pulse or GMK with absorbing spiritual energy. If I would have directed theROM series instead of giving Mothra new transformations I would have made him work hard to earn his victories through perserverence and inventivness. Anyways that is the end of my little rant. I apologize for all the spelling mistakes but I have just pulled an allnighter and had an exhaustive Japanese quiz.

[Saruman]

^ Ah, Jeff, hate to disagree here- It's not the amount that annoys some. It's the insane power level Armor Mothra in particular receives. (To say nothing of the obvious DBZ-ness of the whole affair, but that's really a matter of taste)
That is exactly the point though. WHY did they have to give him such powerful upgrades each time? The answer is pretty obvious, he was fighting foes that he could not have defeated any other way. The upgrade from Larva to Mothra Leo while extremly powerful didn't actually allow him to even defeat Death Ghidorah. The Elias were the ones that resealed him, Leo just kept him from getting up long enough for them to do it.

Not only was Armor Mothra powerful enough to beat Grand Ghidorah- that, I could almost take, particularly after the idiotic amounts of whupass they gave Grand Ghidorah (yes, I said it. Me, complaining about a Ghidorah's firepower), Armor Mothra killed him with what seemed like minimal effort- which is not only hokey and contrived (which, face it guys, the whole genre is at one time or another), it's actually boring. Instead of thrashing Ghidorah in a knock-down, drag-out fight, Armor Mothra beats him like a red-headed stepchild. It's inane. It's like Ali vs. Liston- You blink? You miss it. Even Showa Godzilla took his lumps before magnetizing Mechagodzilla to his doom. Armor Mothra shrugs off everything GG throws at her, then atomizes the poor thug.
I don't disagree that the fight should have been longer, I really wish it was myself. But people are expecting this to be like a Godzilla film and it's not. The Kaiju in this series really are on a much different power level than anything in the Godzilla series. Each one of the evil Kaiju in the ROM series were designed with the power and ability to pretty much wipe out the planet and it was their intent to do so. You don't usually get that in Godzilla films, sure the Kaiju have the possibility to do so, but not on the type of scale that the Kaiju in ROM are capable of. When your designing opponents that are that powerful, you have to make sure that your hero kaiju is going to get the power necessary to stop them.

The others really aren't so bad...

Mothra Leo- I loathe beams on Mothra, but Leo I can handle. He's just a tougher version of Rebirth Mothra, and Jeff is quite right here, he had to be.

Aqua Mothra- Oh well, whatever. Sorta cheesy, and I would've liked Dagarah's demise to be less... microscopic. But all in all, no more annoying than usual.
I have no problem with Aqua Mothra, her opponent was an aquatic kaiju so the form was totally necessary to have. The micro-moth form wasn't a new ability either, Leo used it in the first film against DG. They just used it differently in this case which IMO was quite refreshing and an interesting take on the power.

[godofPH]

In ROM(1) she was mutated when she absorbed the power of the ancient tree
Yeah, a tree. What kind of respectable kaiju gets a new form from a damn tree. LAME!!!!!!

Ya don't see goji getting powered up from trees. You don't see goji going back in time and hanging out in a time capsule for like a billion years. Mothra needs to tone down. Shes like a friggin sayan.

[EternalMothra]

Dammit, you know what, there have been many movies where they have made Godzilla uberly powerful as well! GMK for example, or Godzilla vs. Destroyah! Well you know what, Mothra is a kaiju as well, she deserves to be expressed in her own way!

Mothra is a respectable kaiju, just because it was powered by a like, twelve thousand year old tree, doesn't mean that she is dumb! USE YOUR IMAGINATIONS! I don't know how you guys write kaiju fiction if you don't have an imagination. The Mothra series is DIFFERENT from the Godzilla series, Mothra movies doesn't have to be exactly like a Godzilla movie. Some of you should definately read what Saruman has been saying.

[Tokyo VigilanteX]

A tree? come on,imagination I see none of that.I see a bunch of guys putting nature words into a hat and drawing words is what I see.

But it takes the fun out of fights,it should be a struggle against the forces of evil,Mothras forms really take away this tried and true concept.And just DBZ-afies it.
I would not call slapping some silver on a giant Moth prop and allowing un-goldly strength a "Struggle".I would use the term "Hunting Rats with a Rocket Launcher"

[Cole Deschain]

Dammit, you know what, there have been many movies where they have made Godzilla uberly powerful as well! GMK for example, or Godzilla vs. Destroyah!

Actually, G vs. D had the most logical explananation for Goji's insane power boost I've seen to date,and it's worth pointing out that his insane power level came at a price- His own power melted him alive. Mothra never seems to pay any price for her power increases, beyond the requisite savage beating.

As for GMK- that Goji actually wasn;t that tough in the grand scheme of things, and more to the point, while he was the baddest monster around in that movie, his power level stayed the same throughout. He didn't get a "power-up." That was GMK Ghidorah.

Mothra is a respectable kaiju, just because it was powered by a like, twelve thousand year old tree, doesn't mean that she is dumb!

I agree here. However, it's all down to personal preference.

USE YOUR IMAGINATIONS! I don't know how you guys write kaiju fiction if you don't have an imagination.

I don't write kaiju fiction, so that little barb has no meaning. I will say, however, that there's nothing inherently creative about how Mothra gets juiced up every time. It's formulaic, monster improvement by rote- 'Mothra got shellacked, and rather than using her existing arsenal more interestingly or intelligently, we're just going to give her more toys to play with.' Now, that's more than a little uncharitable on my part, but I must say, I don't see the "imagination" in letting a mystic Kaiju get stronger from mystical sources. It's an anime standby, and when it happens every friggin' movie...

The Mothra series is DIFFERENT from the Godzilla series, Mothra movies doesn't have to be exactly like a Godzilla movie. Some of you should definately read what Saruman has been saying.


I have read Jeff's points (valid, for the most part). However, that doesn't change the cheesy and contrived nature of Mothra's constant power-ups. Taken individually, each transformation is marginally okay (even Armor Mothra). It's when you string 'em together in a consitent trilogy that you run into groaning. GOji's juice came from buddies and parlor tricks. Mothra's came from butt-broiling (to paraphrase Husnock, I think) power spikes. It's the old DBZ quandry- Well, we need another foe who can wipe out all life on Earth. Okay, then. We make him a little tougher than the last one so the rubes don't fall asleep on their seats- and that means we're going to have to let him beat up whatever Mothra we've got, so people know how tough he is. Of course, in that case, Mothra needs to get more powerful...

See what I'm getting at? They write themselves into the same corner every time.

[Saruman]

Actually, G vs. D had the most logical explananation for Goji's insane power boost I've seen to date,and it's worth pointing out that his insane power level came at a price- His own power melted him alive. Mothra never seems to pay any price for her power increases, beyond the requisite savage beating.
Not really, it's only logical because your trying to justify it for a kaiju that you like, it's no different than Heisei Godzilla.

As for GMK- that Goji actually wasn;t that tough in the grand scheme of things, and more to the point, while he was the baddest monster around in that movie, his power level stayed the same throughout. He didn't get a "power-up." That was GMK Ghidorah.
Wrong, his power level did not stay the same. GMK Goji WAS given a "move outta his ***" in order to defeat GMK Ghidorah. Remember up until that point in the movie, GMK Goji was not able to absorb any of Ghidorahs spirit energy, not from his bites or from the spirit ball. He was then given the ability to absorb Ghidorahs beams, this is just as lame as anything that you would consider lame in the Mothra trilogy. Remember that Ghidorah was actually winning their fight under water, Goji had quite a few wounds on him, he needed to get the missile to hit Ghidorah to get him off of him and blast him again. Then Ghidorah wakes up again even more powerful, so the reasonable course of events would be that Ghidorah would have beaten Goji. So they give him the ability to absorb Ghidoras beams so that he would win. Nothing remotely different than what Mothra has/is being bashed for.

I agree here. However, it's all down to personal preference.
It is personal preference, but that doesn't mean that you have to let your preference for one kaiju cloud your judgement when it comes to other kaiju.

I don't write kaiju fiction, so that little barb has no meaning. I will say, however, that there's nothing inherently creative about how Mothra gets juiced up every time. It's formulaic, monster improvement by rote- 'Mothra got shellacked, and rather than using her existing arsenal more interestingly or intelligently, we're just going to give her more toys to play with.'
Again it's no different than Godzilla, it's the same exact formula.

Now, that's more than a little uncharitable on my part, but I must say, I don't see the "imagination" in letting a mystic Kaiju get stronger from mystical sources. It's an anime standby, and when it happens every friggin' movie...
A Mystical Kaiju shouldn't get stronger from Mystical sources? Why is that exactly? How is that any different from a Nuclear Kaiju getting stronger from Nuclear energy?

I have read Jeff's points (valid, for the most part). However, that doesn't change the cheesy and contrived nature of Mothra's constant power-ups. Taken individually, each transformation is marginally okay (even Armor Mothra). It's when you string 'em together in a consitent trilogy that you run into groaning. GOji's juice came from buddies and parlor tricks. Mothra's came from butt-broiling (to paraphrase Husnock, I think) power spikes. It's the old DBZ quandry- Well, we need another foe who can wipe out all life on Earth. Okay, then. We make him a little tougher than the last one so the rubes don't fall asleep on their seats- and that means we're going to have to let him beat up whatever Mothra we've got, so people know how tough he is. Of course, in that case, Mothra needs to get more powerful...
Once again it's no different than Godzilla. Everything your saying is so horrible for Mothra, can directly be applied to Godzilla as well, and yet it's Godzilla so it's ok.

[Saruman]

Yeah, a tree. What kind of respectable kaiju gets a new form from a damn tree. LAME!!!!!!

Ya don't see goji getting powered up from trees. You don't see goji going back in time and hanging out in a time capsule for like a billion years. Mothra needs to tone down. Shes like a friggin sayan.
The tree is to Mothra the same as a nuclear power plant is to Godzilla, it's their source of power. It is in no way lame and it is a hell of a lot more original than a nuclear power plant. It also makes a lot of sense if you actually understand the movies and fits in very well.

If your having trouble understanding the importance of the Tree of Life, then maybe you should try doing so research, primarily in mythology, regarding the importance of trees. That may enlighten you a bit on the matter.

[Saruman]

A tree? come on,imagination I see none of that.I see a bunch of guys putting nature words into a hat and drawing words is what I see.
Then maybe you should actually come up with a real reason as to why it isn't imaginative. I haven't seen the concept used in a Kaiju film before have you? Maybe they should come up with something really imaginative like powering Mothra up by absorbing radiation from nuclear reactors.

But it takes the fun out of fights,it should be a struggle against the forces of evil,Mothras forms really take away this tried and true concept.And just DBZ-afies it.
I would not call slapping some silver on a giant Moth prop and allowing un-goldly strength a "Struggle".I would use the term "Hunting Rats with a Rocket Launcher"
So your saying that Mothra doesn't struggle in these films? I guess that Mothra doesn't get soundly beaten in each of these films then either? I guess Mothra dying in the first film is not struggling enough for you? I guess you must be watching different movies than me because Mothra struggles quite a lot in these films.

[Saruman]

Personaly, i hate Mothra in general, but thats besides the Point. Mothra pulls a new move or transformatoin out of her fuzzy-*** everytime shes in danger. SHE NEVER LOOSES. Atleast Goji looses 4 times before laying the Smack-down.
She NEVER loses? I take it you missed the fact that Mothra in Godzilla vs Mothra '64, died? I take it you missed the fact that the first Mothra in the ROM Trilogy died? I assume that you missed the fact that Mothra got her *** handed to here in each of the ROM movies? I take it you missed Godzilla spanking her in GvM:TBFE? I take it you also missed Mothra being destroyed by GMK Goji? What about GMMG Goji destroying Mothra as well?

Mothra has died and stayed dead numerous times. She/He has taken more beatings than just about any other Kaiju. Saying that she never loses is quite incorrect.

[Charles RB]

Not really, it's only logical because your trying to justify it for a kaiju that you like, it's no different than Heisei Godzilla.

Actually, it's quite different- Godzilla's power-boost in that movie was because he was melting down and that was going to eventually kill him. Rebirth Mothra never died from her upgrades.

GMK Goji WAS given a "move outta his ***" in order to defeat GMK Ghidorah... Nothing remotely different than what Mothra has/is being bashed for.

There's one big difference- Godzilla wasn't the hero of that film. GMK Ghidorah is the one we're meant to root for and want to triumph over the bad guy, while Godzilla here is the bad guy we want to see go down. This is like Grand King Ghidorah suddenly developing the power to rust metal when Armour Mothra shows up, not like Mothra becoming Armoured.


Once again it's no different than Godzilla.

Godzilla didn't ever transform into a wholly new form with new powers in any movie bar VS Destoroyah, and while he has at times sprouted new abilities these were generally only one such ability instead of a whole arsenal.

And it's Armour Mothra that's the big offender as far as I can see- that form beat Ghidorah too easily. When he's been an uber-threat before then, that grates; it'd be like Clint having Bagan smacked around and utterly defeated in a few paragraphs.

[EternalMothra]

All right, some of you need to take Mothra more seriously, you guys think she is weak and dumb for being what she is. Well excuse me, she is my favorite kaiju and the favorite of many other people, you don't need to bash her all the time. Godzilla is not the all time ultimate kaiju in the world, he is the most popular. If I'm right, Mothra is closely followed in behind him in popularity, and don't tell me that popularity doesn't mean anything either.

Mothra has been defeated a lot. I think she deserves a chance to survive through a whole Godzilla movie. She's died in GMK, in GMMG, in Mvs.G 64', and ROM.

By the way, it took imagination to create kaiju now didn't it. I mean someone didn't just say, okay we're going to create a giant lizard that is powered by nuclear energy and that stomps cities. It took imagination to create it, the same with Mothra. Mothra is powered by the Earth, where do you expect her energy to come from?

[Alien-G]

they're just movies, there doesn't have to be an explanation for transforming.

[Charles RB]

All right, some of you need to take Mothra more seriously, you guys think she is weak and dumb for being what she is.

I like Mothra! (Showa Mothra, anyway)

Godzilla is not the all time ultimate kaiju in the world

Gamera is. ;)

Mothra has been defeated a lot. I think she deserves a chance to survive through a whole Godzilla movie.

She has- Ghidrah the Three-Headed Monster, Ebirah Horror Of The Deep, Destroy All Monsters and Godzilla VS Mothra: Battle For The Earth.

they're just movies, there doesn't have to be an explanation for transforming.

BECAUSE they're movies there needs to be an explanation. Movie plots have to make sense (excepting films like Donnie Darko, which Mothra isn't).

[godofPH]

I always thought that a kaiju that takes orders from 6 inch tall island girls was lame. Heisei Goji had to pay for all of his powerups in the end. Mothra didn't. It was also lame that Mothra had to fight incarnations of Ghidorah twice. Maybe substitue Battra in instead of Death Ghidorah.

[Saruman]

Actually, it's quite different- Godzilla's power-boost in that movie was because he was melting down and that was going to eventually kill him. Rebirth Mothra never died from her upgrades.
Dying has no factor in this, and you might want to note, that while one Godzilla did die in GvD, there was one still standing at the end of the movie. Sounds a lot more like Mothra every time.

Also, if you want to compare Dying creatures and power levels, then compare the first Mothra in the ROM Trilogy to Goji in GvD.

Mothra was dying in the film, yet her/his powers were not boosted to fight Death Ghidorah now were they. In fact she/he continued to weaken throughout the fight and was eventually killed from the damage she/he suffered.

Godzilla was dying in GvD as well. But instead of weakening in the time leading up to his death, he was instead made vastly more powerful. Now I don't know about you, but how many things have you seen that get stronger when there dying? Especially when he is in Meltdown, his powers are out of control, which is why they are killing him. He shouldn't be able to fire stronger and stronger controlled blasts when it's obvious his powers are no longer under his command.

There's one big difference- Godzilla wasn't the hero of that film. GMK Ghidorah is the one we're meant to root for and want to triumph over the bad guy, while Godzilla here is the bad guy we want to see go down. This is like Grand King Ghidorah suddenly developing the power to rust metal when Armour Mothra shows up, not like Mothra becoming Armoured.
There isnt a difference, both are the stars of their movies and who were supposed to focus on. If that wasn't the case then GMK would be known as KING GHIDORAH, Godzilla, Mothra: All Out Monster Attack. It also doesn't change the fact that Godzilla still received two power-ups to finish off Ghidorah in the film.

Something else to note, even if we look at it from your suggested perspective and focus on King Ghidorah. Well he was given a power boost twice in the movie as well, so that still doesn't help your justification.

Godzilla didn't ever transform into a wholly new form with new powers in any movie bar VS Destoroyah, and while he has at times sprouted new abilities these were generally only one such ability instead of a whole arsenal.
Now this is wrong, Godzilla did recieve a substantial power-up earlier in the Heisei Series. Remember when the Heisei Series started, Godzilla was only 80 meters tall, but in GvKG he received a substantial power up which resulted in him growing to 100 meters which also increased allof his other powers and abilities along with it. Granted he may have looked the same on the outside, but he was still vastly more powerful from a very cheap "move out of his ***" ploy.

And it's Armour Mothra that's the big offender as far as I can see- that form beat Ghidorah too easily. When he's been an uber-threat before then, that grates; it'd be like Clint having Bagan smacked around and utterly defeated in a few paragraphs.
I would have liked to see the fight last longer myself, but it didn't. We saw Mothra get trashed twice in the movie and then it took being cocooned and his drawing in power for 130 million years to get to a power level that would allow him to defeat GKG. That's not like it's an instant change, it did take 130 million years, you can't just look at it in the context of actual time that we saw it happen on screen.

Remember also that in that time span, GKG also grew and evolved and got more powerful over 130 million years as well, something everyone seems to be forgetting.

What would happen if you let Godzilla rest and store power for 130 million years? Well if he didn't explode from overload, he would be pretty damn powerful wouldn't you say? What about Gamera, you don't think he would be more powerful?

[EternalMothra]

^That is a good point Saruman!!;)

I'm glad a few people like Mothra besides me. I know I may seem annoying with the Mothra buisness, but I can't help myself, I like all kaiju, but Mothra is the first one I saw, and I love her. Don't get me wrong, I love Godzilla too, I just like what Mothra's character in the Heisei series represents. Why should people hate Mothra because of that? She is one of the only protectors of the Human Race, and she protects the Earth. She is a very sensitive(sp) kaiju.

It doesn't matter if the kaiju is a female, Biollante is a female, yet no one bashes her. Who cares about the transformations, they just show what Mothra goes through to protect the Earth and Humanity from evil. And what's wrong with Mothra fighting more than one Ghidorah. Count up how many Godzilla has battled in the past, and will be battling in the future.

[Cole Deschain]

Dying has no factor in this, and you might want to note, that while one Godzilla did die in GvD, there was one still standing at the end of the movie. Sounds a lot more like Mothra every time.

The key difference Jeff, and the point you seem to be willfully glossing over, is a thematic element- Godzilla's insane power came at a dear cost. It killed him. Destroyah didn't kill him. The power he used to bash Des into fragments was his doom. Wheras Mothra's power never comes at any price that I can see. All of Mothra's powers are gimmes. Wheras Burning/Meltdown Godzilla was being consumed from within by his own power. It's also worth pointing out that while Junior was indeed jacked up to full Goji status, he didn't inherit the insane power of Burning Godzilla, which means that the parallell to Mothra Leo is full of holes.

It's far more interesting, as far as I'm concerned, for power to come at a price (Any argument you make about Showa Godzilla will hold up, however. His own abilities seemed to arrive at random and at no penalty. Ditto for GMK Goji, but I'm no fan of GMK, as you may recall).

[Cole Deschain]

Wrong, his power level did not stay the same.

Once again, I don't like GMK enough to recalll everything. Point to you.

It is personal preference, but that doesn't mean that you have to let your preference for one kaiju cloud your judgement when it comes to other kaiju.

We're all human. But some bias in inevitable.

Again it's no different than Godzilla, it's the same exact formula.

Sure. But when did Goji's power spike even come close to say, the Leo boost? He never gained as much relative power in one go as Mothra did.

A Mystical Kaiju shouldn't get stronger from Mystical sources? Why is that exactly? How is that any different from a Nuclear Kaiju getting stronger from Nuclear energy?

That was my originality point, Jeff. Thanks for backing me up.

[EternalMothra]

The key difference Jeff, and the point you seem to be willfully glossing over, is a thematic element- Godzilla's insane power came at a dear cost. It killed him. Destroyah didn't kill him. The power he used to bash Des into fragments was his doom. Wheras Mothra's power never comes at any price that I can see. All of Mothra's powers are gimmes. Wheras Burning/Meltdown Godzilla was being consumed from within by his own power. It's also worth pointing out that while Junior was indeed jacked up to full Goji status, he didn't inherit the insane power of Burning Godzilla, which means that the parallell to Mothra Leo is full of holes.

It's far more interesting, as far as I'm concerned, for power to come at a price (Any argument you make about Showa Godzilla will hold up, however. His own abilities seemed to arrive at random and at no penalty. Ditto for GMK Goji, but I'm no fan of GMK, as you may recall).
Godzilla was powered by nuclear energy, and to much of that can be lethal, but Mothra uses the energy of the Earth, which is not lethal to her because she uses it for a good cost. Godzilla in the Heisei series didn't give a crap if he destroyed the city or anything, yeah he fought Spacegodzilla, but he probably was mad at him for sealing his child. He fought Destroyah, and if he wasn't in his burning form, Destroyah would have mutilated him, another thing too, he fought Destroyah because he was messing with his child.

By the way, nuclear power is created by humans, that was a mistake on humans part, because nuclear energy is deadly, so we pretty much killed Godzilla. Mothra's energy is created by the Earth, so it is not deadly to her.

[Cole Deschain]

Godzilla was powered by nuclear energy, and too much of that can be lethal

Nuclear energy is Goji's food. In theory, it shouldn't bother him at all- remeber the fallout reviving him after the cadmium had taken him down? And I would argue that too much of anything is a bad idea. Yeah, he was "forced" to "overeat"- but that's still power at a price.

but Mothra uses the energy of the Earth, which is not lethal to her because she uses it for a good cause.

Doesn't change my thematic preference one whit. Gamera took his lumps while drawing upon the power of the Earth- his use of the mana beam depleted the levels enough to wake all of the Gyaos- so once he again, there was a price to be paid.

Godzilla in the Heisei series didn't give a crap if he destroyed the city or anything, yeah he fought Spacegodzilla, but he probably was mad at him for sealing his child. He fought Destroyah, and if he wasn't in his burning form, Destroyah would have mutilated him, another thing too, he fought Destroyah because he was messing with his child.

Which doesn't change my point.

By the way, nuclear power is created by humans, that was a mistake on humans part, because nuclear energy is deadly

The monster didn't ask to be born, and the irony of his power source consuming him alive strikes me as far more interesting than "Okayheressomemorepowergokickghidorahsbutt!"

Mothra's energy is created by the Earth, so it is not deadly to her.

Which is part of the problem.

[Saruman]

The key difference Jeff, and the point you seem to be willfully glossing over, is a thematic element- Godzilla's insane power came at a dear cost. It killed him. Destroyah didn't kill him. The power he used to bash Des into fragments was his doom. Wheras Mothra's power never comes at any price that I can see. All of Mothra's powers are gimmes. Wheras Burning/Meltdown Godzilla was being consumed from within by his own power. It's also worth pointing out that while Junior was indeed jacked up to full Goji status, he didn't inherit the insane power of Burning Godzilla, which means that the parallell to Mothra Leo is full of holes.
See that's what your missing though. Burning Godzilla died, but he still revived his dying son AND mutated him to fully grown form in a matter of seconds, thus passing on his power to the next Godzilla.

ROM Mothra dies and her power goes to the ROM Larva, who then goes and cocoons himself at a natural power source and emerges as Mothra Leo. Also don't forget that this larva was also severly underpowered because it hatched early to try to save its mother, which is why it needed the Tree of Life to attain full power.

There is NO difference there, they both die and pass their power on to the offspring. The only new thing is that Godzilla goes about it the same way Mothra does, but yet thats ok.

Sorry, no holes there.

It's far more interesting, as far as I'm concerned, for power to come at a price (Any argument you make about Showa Godzilla will hold up, however. His own abilities seemed to arrive at random and at no penalty. Ditto for GMK Goji, but I'm no fan of GMK, as you may recall).
Mothra's power does come at a price, it just goes about it in a different way. The current Mothra is supposed to die and pass her/his power onto the next one. When you have to die for your offspring to prosper I would call that a pretty hefty price.

[godofPH]

Mothra's power does come at a price, it just goes about it in a different way. The current Mothra is supposed to die and pass her/his power onto the next one. When you have to die for your offspring to prosper I would call that a pretty hefty price.
Yeah, but did Mothra Leo have to pay any price for that? If Mothra had to pay a price, so should Mothra leo.

[Saruman]

^
Don't worry,Ive found a site that has Mothra as a Religion
If thats not being a fan,then i don't know what is.....
Mothra is on my favorites list(But has tought Competition with Megalon,Baragon,Orga,and Megagurius)

Its just that it seems like Mothra can't beat an enemy with out a form of some kind....
Leo to Rainbow to Aqua to beat Dagahra(This is a form that was required,no matter what.Plus it looks cool)

Rainbow to Aqua To Lightspeed(Lightspeed was required,but still I would have liked to have seen something else)

Armour to Eternal(Armour is ungodly strong,and Eternal didn't do much)

WHat I'd do is loose Leo and have him start off in Rainbow form,combine Lightspeed and Aqua,And cut Armours power down abit,and give it to the Eternal Mothra,and loose Armour.Even though Armour did look cool.
You have things pretty confused here.

Mothra Leo is the base form, the starting point.

Aqua Mothra & Rainbow Mothra are one and the same. Aqua is just the water form of Rainbow.

Lightspeed Mothra needed the power of the Elias to go back in time, otherwise he is still Rainbow Mothra.

Armor Mothra & Eternal Mothra are the same. Armored is just that, Eternal Mothra with his armor on. The best way to think of this is to look at it like the X-Men's Peter Rasputin/Colossus, Colossus is just Peter's armored form.

There really are only 3 Base Forms, that being Leo, Rainbow & Eternal. All the other forms are just variations of one of those 3 base forms. Leo cant turn into Aqua or Armored Mothra. Rainbow can't turn into Armored Mothra. Eternal Mothra should have access to all of the various forms and can't turn into Leo and Rainbow.

[Saruman]

Yeah, but did Mothra Leo have to pay any price for that? If Mothra had to pay a price, so should Mothra leo.
Leo doesn't have to pay the price for that, his Mother already did it for him, thats the whole point, ROM Mothra died so that the Larva could become Mothra Leo.

The other two transformations did have a price but it was different. One was from an external source, that being Nili Kani, in which it was Nili Kani that actually paid the price for that with its destruction.

Then the other transformation to Eternal/Armored Mothra had the price of self imprisonment for 130 million years so that he could save the Earth.

Now you many not think of that as being a price, but it is.

[Saruman]

^ Exactly. Momma Mothra died in battle, as opposed to her power costing her anything.
What are you talking about, that is how Mothra passes down her power in the series, The adult dies so that the child can emerge and become the new protector of the Earth. Just because she died early doesn't change that fact, the price is still there no matter what and it is paid for with a life.

It's one life for one life, the price never goes away.

[Cole Deschain]

Leo doesn't have to pay the price for that, his Mother already did it for him, thats the whole point, ROM Mothra died so that the Larva could become Mothra Leo.

The other two transformations did have a price but it was different. One was from an external source, that being Nili Kani, in which it was Nili Kani that actually paid the price for that with its destruction.

Once again, just a personal preference- I'd rather the one wielding the power was the one who had to pay for it. It's like inheriting command of an insanely powerful army- Have fun, but remember, you didn't earn it.

Then the other transformation to Eternal/Armored Mothra had the price of self imprisonment for 130 million years so that he could save the Earth.

In exchange for which, we, the fans, got a fight that lasted ten seconds. Looks like we paid the price for that one.

[EternalMothra]

^I would have liked the fight to last longer as well, but they had to show how powerful Armor Mothra was, so they probably had her beat Grand Ghidorah faster, it's either that, or Toho got lazy and wanted to end the film, ya never know...

O by the way, I know you found that Mothra-religion site, I DON'T worship Mothra, I'm a Christian. Just wanted to make sure that nobody thought I worshipped her.

[ALLOSAURZ]

All I have to say is which is more interesting. Watching armour Mothra defeat GKG in one swoop or watching A mothra like Showa Mothra use cunning and determination to bring down her oponent. IMO new uber forms are not neccessary better writing though is.

[Cole Deschain]

What are you talking about, that is how Mothra passes down her power in the series, The adult dies so that the child can emerge and become the new protector of the Earth. Just because she died early doesn't change that fact, the price is still there no matter what and it is paid for with a life.

That is the point Jeff, as I've been whining petulantly for about three pages now. It's a thematic point (as I've been whining for two pages now)/ So good of you to notice- I don't like that aspect of it (and as this thread is about people's likes and dislikes, this is most certainly germane to the conversation), because the price of power doesn't fall upon the wielder. Leo never truly pays for his power. By your logic, he should have been just about as tough as his mom. But he wasn't, he cocooned himself up near a not-entirely uninspired version of Yggdrasil, and whammo, he had the power he needed to keep Death Ghidorah busy.

It's one life for one life, the price never goes away.[/QUOTE]
Leo never paid the price- not even in a deferred fashion, since we never see Leo dying and passing tha mantle on. If it happened between movies, it wasn't very clear to me.

[EternalMothra]

Leo is different from other Mothra's. He was born early, he's the only male Mothra, and he gained his power from an ancient tree. What price should Leo have to pay? He might have a longer lifespan than other Mothras. Leo knew he couldn't destroy Death Ghidora, even if he was in his regular imago form, so he found a power source and transformed into a more powerful stage.

O and RexRaptor, if Mothra would've lost against Grand Ghidorah, then all Mothra fans probably would get mad, I thing good should always win, and what's wrong with Mothra being powerful, you all bash Mothra for this, but it isn't only her, Godzilla does this too, you guys just don't like Mothra because the way she is, well maybe you should be a bit more confident in the bug....

[Saruman]

That is the point Jeff, as I've been whining petulantly for about three pages now. It's a thematic point (as I've been whining for two pages now)/ So good of you to notice- I don't like that aspect of it (and as this thread is about people's likes and dislikes, this is most certainly germane to the conversation), because the price of power doesn't fall upon the wielder. Leo never truly pays for his power. By your logic, he should have been just about as tough as his mom. But he wasn't, he cocooned himself up near a not-entirely uninspired version of Yggdrasil, and whammo, he had the power he needed to keep Death Ghidorah busy.
Your missing the reason that he had to use the Tree of Life. As I already pointed out, Leo's larva form hatched early and wasn't fully developed. When his mother died, her power went to him, but he was still not at his full power, he had to use the Tree of Life to reach his full potential. If the larva didn't have to hatch early, it's quite possible that he would not have needed the Tree of Life.

Leo never paid the price- not even in a deferred fashion, since we never see Leo dying and passing tha mantle on. If it happened between movies, it wasn't very clear to me.
Just because you don't see the price for Leo does not mean that it still isn't there. Leo will have to pay that price at some point, when he passes his power to his offspring so that it can become the next protector of the Earth. Leo's price will be the same that they used for Heisei Goji. That being he will die and his power will be passed on to his offspring.

Goji doesn't really even suffer any consequences for his powers when you really look at it. It took two extreme doses of energy, one of which he never would have gotten under normal conditions and was a "move out of his *** to save him," that put him into meltdown to begin with. If he only receives Rodan's energy or just the energy from being on the island then he would never have gone into Meltdown. Really it was Rodan that started that whole course of events. He was simply fed to much energy in a short period of time. Under normal circumstances his Meltdown would have never occurred.

[godofPH]

Then the other transformation to Eternal/Armored Mothra had the price of self imprisonment for 130 million years so that he could save the Earth.

Now you many not think of that as being a price, but it is.
It was like she got cyrogenically frozen. Like in Futurama when Fry falls into the cyrogenic freezer in 2000. He wakes up in year 3000 and it seemed like it happened just as soon as he fell in. Same thing with mothra.

[PyrasTerran]

It was like she got cyrogenically frozen. Like in Futurama when Fry falls into the cyrogenic freezer in 2000. He wakes up in year 3000 and it seemed like it happened just as soon as he fell in. Same thing with mothra.

Cryogenic freezing? She was cocooned as an adult, there's no million years-passing by when that happens. Do you understand how much it takes to always be focusing your energy and strengthening yourself with only your mind, and doing this for 130 million years for one event that you're not even sure will happen(Leo wasn't sure if Grand Ghidorah would return)??

[Saruman]

Cryogenic freezing? She was cocooned as an adult, there's no million years-passing by when that happens. Do you understand how much it takes to always be focusing your energy and strengthening yourself with only your mind, and doing this for 130 million years for one event that you're not even sure will happen(Leo wasn't sure if Grand Ghidorah would return)??
I don't believe that in the least. I think Mothra knew that dropping CKG in the volcano was just a delaying tactic, there was no way that would have killed him if Rainbow Mothra couldn't really harm him with his powers. There also would not have been any need for him to be cocooned by the Cretaceous Larva. I am certain that they all knew that CKG was still alive.

[EternalMothra]

Are you joking? In two of the last three Toho fantasy films Mothra is INCINERATED, and there is an excellent possibility that she is slain in GFW as well (Gigan goes on to fight Godzilla after tangling with her.)

You also left out the utter spanking of Mothra in Ghidorah: TTHM, and the fact that she is defeated by Godzilla AND Battra in GvsM '92.
I don't think Toho will incinerate her again, or kill her in any other way, in fact, she may be the last monster standing. Remember how Gigan looked in the battle with Mothra at first, well later, Gigan has like, buzz saw arms, so Mothra must have damaged Gigan severely. Remember, Fire Mothra is on GFW as well, so Mothra is probably one of the last standing monsters.

[Cole Deschain]

Under normal circumstances his Meltdown would have never occurred.


But that power-up still killed him.


And I misstated my point about Leo- Leo may be doomed to die, but aren't all living things? Seriously. Oh no, someday I'll get old or die in battle. That's not the price Leo paid for his abnormal power- He demonstrated abilities his mother never did (and if there's anything I can learn from Mothra history, it's how they tend to pull out all the stops when they're dying)- most of which I attribute to the tree, not simplky "being Mothra." Ergo, he had extra abilities at no extra cost.

Meltdown Godzilla was killed as a direct result of an increase in power. Mothra never has to suffer this sort of fate either.

(Once again- the Showa series is another story altogether)

[EternalMothra]

Why should Mothra have to suffer Godzilla's fate? Remember, Mothra and Godzilla are totally different monsters with different power sources, nuclear energy is different from the Earth's energy, there might not be a lethal result from this energy.

[Cole Deschain]

^ You're asking why we hate the transformations. My basic answer is that Mothra doesn't pay enough of a price for her increased power. You don't like my answer? Tough. It's an opinion.

[EternalMothra]

I don't have any problem with your opinion, I am just wondering why you think Mothra should have to pay a price, you never know, she might have paid her price in the future if the trilogy was continued. I have absolutely no problem with your opinion, everyone is entitled to their own. I don't hate you answer at all, don't get all mad.

[Saruman]

But that power-up still killed him.
Yes it was what was the start of his meltdown. But the point you are missing is that Godzilla would never have died without getting such a massive intake of power. There is no "price" for his power unless he receives such a massive boost, and even then it still took more than 2 years for his meltdown to complete itself.

So what is more of a price to pay, 2 years and then die or spend 130 million years imprisoned before you are set free?

And I misstated my point about Leo- Leo may be doomed to die, but aren't all living things? Seriously. Oh no, someday I'll get old or die in battle. That's not the price Leo paid for his abnormal power- He demonstrated abilities his mother never did (and if there's anything I can learn from Mothra history, it's how they tend to pull out all the stops when they're dying)- most of which I attribute to the tree, not simplky "being Mothra." Ergo, he had extra abilities at no extra cost.
Your not looking at it in the proper context though. your simply looking at it as "oh she/he is going to die anyway so what does it matter." Think of it this way though. What if the only way for you to have been born was if your Mother had to die? Would you say that is a fair price to pay for your birth, no matter how old your mother was? Would you trade your mothers life for yours? Think about it and see what your answer is, I already know what mine would be without a second though.

Meltdown Godzilla was killed as a direct result of an increase in power. Mothra never has to suffer this sort of fate either.
No, Godzilla was killed from multiple extreme doses of energy, it wasn't just one. This is something that your overlooking. Just Fire Rodan's energy wouldn't have made him meltdown, it was additional things after that that resulted in that happening.

This is what makes Mothra and Godzilla different. Godzilla sotres his energy inside of him, Mothra doesn't have to do that completely. She can draw on the Earths power when she needs to, so there isn't a chance of her/him overloading like Godzilla can.

Consider this as well, what if Mothra drew the power from the Earth to make the transformation into Armored Motha/Eternal Mothra all at one time so that he never had to travel through time? Assuming that is possible. What would have happened to the Earth in that case? That much of a drain on the Earth could have destroyed the planet. Instead he drew in the power slowly over the course of 130 million years which nullified the damage he could have caused.

Mothra is much more like Gamera than he/she is Godzilla, which is why it's not always good to compare Mothra to Godzilla.

[Saruman]

^ It's a stylistic, thematic issue. Once again, Heisei Gamera was powered by "clean" energy, and that still had dire consequences in the end. I just feel that power as extreme and over the top as the Rebirth Mothra demonstrates should exact more of a cost upon its wielder.
Why should it though? Did anyone care that Silver age Superman could do anything that he wanted to and nothing really came close to his power level. But yet Superman is one of the most popular characters ever created and he had no real price to pay for his powers. I understand that you want Mothra to have to pay a price for his powers, but why? Will that somehow make it more acceptable? I don't see that happening, people will just find another reason to dislike the character, even you.

Besides simple human bias, I think part of the reason that I let Godzilla get away with it is that most of his "power-ups" are simply an increase in size, strength, and/or beam power. He doesn't "magically" gain any new abilities he never had before. (I personally feel that the nuke pulse was something the heisei Godzilla was always capable of, but never knew how to employ until Biollante shorted out his breath).
Now here is your real problem and your biggest issue. You feel that Mothra shouldn't have all those powers. But who says that he was given more powers when the larva turned into Mothra Leo? We know that the larva when it matured and hatched normally would have been stronger than it's mother, they tell you this in the film. So what powers did he get that he wasn't supposed to have? You can't answer this question, noone can. Mothra Leo is a totally new kaiju, we have never seen him before ROM1 and thus we have no idea as to what his powers should or shouldn't be.

Have you ever thought that Mothra Leo would have had those powers even without the Tree of Life? Did you ever consider that like Godzilla when he gets a power-up, that the Tree of Life only made Leo stronger and didn't give him new abilities? I highly doubt that you did because you simply don't like Mothra in this trilogy and this allows you a reason to validate that.

Actually if you look at all three films. Mothra Leo displays more powers in ROM1 than Rainbow Mothra/Aqua Mothra & Armored Mothra/Eternal Mothra display in films 2 & 3. So it could actually be argued that Mothra Leo actually lost powers in the transformations, even though the powers he kept were more powerful.

As for Showa Godzilla- he's actually far, far cheesier than any Mothra ever dreamed of being.

Seriously. The "jet flight" in Godzilla vs. The Smog Monster is a monument to the kind of thing I loathe in kaiju movies.
I think this is a given, LOL.

[Saruman]

Side question- was Mothra concious when in that cocoon for millions of years? If she'd been fully aware when in the cocoon for that long, surely she'd have gone insane or lost the ability to move through lack of practise?
I would say no, it's most likely he was in a state of hibernation or stasis.

[Cole Deschain]

Yes it was what was the start of his meltdown. But the point you are missing is that Godzilla would never have died without getting such a massive intake of power. There is no "price" for his power unless he receives such a massive boost, and even then it still took more than 2 years for his meltdown to complete itself.

You're not contradicting my point, Jeff. His power killed him. His extra power, in however many doses he received it, killed him. What does it matter how many it was? He got too much, and in his final uber-form, his body couldn't handle it.

So what is more of a price to pay, 2 years and then die or spend 130 million years imprisoned before you are set free?

Set free to accomplish a task you are compelled to complete. And when you're spending all of that time preparing for a battle with your greatest foe, I think you want all the downtime you can have.

Your not looking at it in the proper context though. your simply looking at it as "oh she/he is going to die anyway so what does it matter." Think of it this way though. What if the only way for you to have been born was if your Mother had to die? Would you say that is a fair price to pay for your birth, no matter how old your mother was? Would you trade your mothers life for yours? Think about it and see what your answer is, I already know what mine would be without a second though.

But that's how the Mothra "species" works. If a sacrifice is built in, and there is no way out, it loses all of its meaning. At any rate, mothers of many species would cheerfully die for their children. You and I are clearly viewing this quite differently. You see Mothra as a big bug that is basically "human" in its emotions. I see Mothra as a big bug that is a mystical deity operating under rules we couldn't possibly follow if we tried. Seriously, if you were a Mothra, tell me you woulnd;t simply wipe humanity out and save the palnet a lot of grief- Mothras are insufferably noble.

No, Godzilla was killed from multiple extreme doses of energy, it wasn't just one. This is something that your overlooking. Just Fire Rodan's energy wouldn't have made him meltdown, it was additional things after that that resulted in that happening.

Covered this. You seem to have missed the forest for the trees in my posts.

This is what makes Mothra and Godzilla different. Godzilla sotres his energy inside of him, Mothra doesn't have to do that completely. She can draw on the Earths power when she needs to, so there isn't a chance of her/him overloading like Godzilla can.

Who cares?! This doesn;t address my thematic poitn at all- Mothra doesn't need to overload, but channeling that much energy should do something untoward, even if it's just an unfortunate side effect like a certain patch of forest taking longer to regrow after the battle.

Consider this as well, what if Mothra drew the power from the Earth to make the transformation into Armored Motha/Eternal Mothra all at one time so that he never had to travel through time? Assuming that is possible. What would have happened to the Earth in that case? That much of a drain on the Earth could have destroyed the planet. Instead he drew in the power slowly over the course of 130 million years which nullified the damage he could have caused.

And?

Mothra is much more like Gamera than he/she is Godzilla, which is why it's not always good to compare Mothra to Godzilla.

A comparison I'm also quite willing to make, as you might have noticed...

[Cole Deschain]

Why should it though? Did anyone care that Silver age Superman could do anything that he wanted to and nothing really came close to his power level.

I certainly don't enjoy his stories much.

But yet Superman is one of the most popular characters ever created

Ah, but there are so many versions, Jeff. Don;t just limit yourself to the silver age. The current version is quite interesting, and the Golden Age was also quite cool.

Oh yeah, and the "JSA- The LIberty Files" incarnation was friggin' sweet.

But I digress.

and he had no real price to pay for his powers.

Short of being the "last son of Krypton" (although the Silver Age mucked this up handily as well), short of forever living a double life to protect his frends and family, short of being asked to step up to the plate because nobody else can (that last, I'll admit, also applies to just about any Mothra), short of always being the guy that everybody but Batman asks for advice, short of having to be "the" superhero- to say nothing of his "death," and of the fact that his very nobility tortures him over some of his actions (the death of General Zod, for example).

I understand that you want Mothra to have to pay a price for his powers, but why? Will that somehow make it more acceptable?

For me? Yes. Why? Because from Odin on down, power or knowledge has its cost- and Mothra tends to wield more than nearly any other character, especially if you take the long view. Additionally, the latter incarnations of Mothra are portrayed as being so damn "human" that I cannot believe that the natural power they wield is their right. It feels like a gift (now, Mothra '61- that was a force of nature).

I don't see that happening, people will just find another reason to dislike the character, even you.

Not entirely true. I really like the 1961 Mothra. I don't utterly despise Leo. I haven't seen Tokyo S.O.S. so I can't comment. The Rebirth Trilogy is really what gave rise to my general dislike for the character. Even in "Godzilla vs. Mothra" (the seed of many an anti-Mothra bias), I'm sorta fond of 'er... 'specially Momma Mothra.


Mothra Leo is a totally new kaiju, we have never seen him before ROM1 and thus we have no idea as to what his powers should or shouldn't be.

"Stronger" than the mother did not imply to me that the little larva was going to turn into Zee Uber-Moth, with added bells and whistles. I pictured simply a more damage-resistant and perhaps faster Mothra, whose attacks Death Ghidorah might acvtually feel. Part of why I'm not totally averse to Leo, actually. As I said waaaaay back, Armor Mothra's my chief gripe.

I highly doubt that you did because you simply don't like Mothra in this trilogy and this allows you a reason to validate that.

Cheap shot, ese. If I really hated the Moth, I guarantee you I wouldn't have given as much ground as I have.

[Saruman]

You're not contradicting my point, Jeff. His power killed him. His extra power, in however many doses he received it, killed him. What does it matter how many it was? He got too much, and in his final uber-form, his body couldn't handle it.
Sure it contridicts it. Your basing your argument on one specific instance that would never have happened under normal circumstances. Godzilla didn't have a choice, Rodan gave him his power, he didn't ask for it. Without that happening Godzilla never goes into Meltdown. Even you can kill yourself by over eating, does that mean your paying a price for your power? No it doesn't. The simple fact is that Godzilla would never pay any price for his power if he isn't force fed Rodan's energy. Godzilla if left alone would never ever go into Meltdown, thats what you are completely missing. He paid a price but that price should never have even happened.

Set free to accomplish a task you are compelled to complete. And when you're spending all of that time preparing for a battle with your greatest foe, I think you want all the downtime you can have.
You didn't answer the question and Mothra's task doesn't matter, he is still paying a price.

But that's how the Mothra "species" works. If a sacrifice is built in, and there is no way out, it loses all of its meaning.
It doesn't matter if the "species" works that way, they are still forced to pay a price just for being what they are.

At any rate, mothers of many species would cheerfully die for their children. You and I are clearly viewing this quite differently.
Again you didn't answer the question I asked. I didn't ask if your mother would die for you, I asked you, if YOU feel that for you to be born your mother had to die, if that was a reasonable price to pay? Should your mother die for you to be born?

You see Mothra as a big bug that is basically "human" in its emotions. I see Mothra as a big bug that is a mystical deity operating under rules we couldn't possibly follow if we tried.
No I am not looking at Mothra like that at all, I am simply looking at him as a character, whether he is human, insect, fish, plant, mineral or anything else doesn't even matter.

Seriously, if you were a Mothra, tell me you woulnd;t simply wipe humanity out and save the palnet a lot of grief- Mothras are insufferably noble.
What I would do as Mothra doesn't have any real bearing on the isue at hand. Though since I would be a Mothra I would probably have the same feelings as every other Mothra towards protecting the planet and all that inhabit it.

Covered this. You seem to have missed the forest for the trees in my posts.
No I know exactly what your saying, and I find it rather skewed, as you already stated, you don't like this version Mothra and you have a bias towards Godzilla.

Who cares?! This doesn;t address my thematic poitn at all- Mothra doesn't need to overload, but channeling that much energy should do something untoward, even if it's just an unfortunate side effect like a certain patch of forest taking longer to regrow after the battle.
And exactly how much energy is he channeling? You have to be able to come up with something to suggest that Mothra is creating such a huge drain on the Earth. The problem is you can't because you have no idea how much power he needs to use for each move he uses.

And?
Obvisouly you missed the point, think of it this way. If Gamera had 130 million years to draw in the power to use the Mana Beam, then he could have just sapped a little of the Earth's energy every day, week or year so as not to weaken it and release the Gyaos. Unfortunately he had to do it in one quick instant and it damaged the Earth greatly and set the Gyaos free. Doing it one way he paid a huge price, but if he did it another way he might have not paid any price for it at all.

[Saruman]

I certainly don't enjoy his stories much.
Your in the minority then I would say.

Ah, but there are so many versions, Jeff. Don;t just limit yourself to the silver age. The current version is quite interesting, and the Golden Age was also quite cool.

Oh yeah, and the "JSA- The LIberty Files" incarnation was friggin' sweet.

But I digress.
Silver Age Superman is the real deal and the most powerful which is what you want for a comparrison.

As for the rest, they are just hollow shells of the character IMO.

Short of being the "last son of Krypton" (although the Silver Age mucked this up handily as well)
Sorry that's not a price that HE paid. Just because his planet was destroyed and he is the "last" surviving member of his race does not mean that he paid any price for that.

short of forever living a double life to protect his frends and family, short of being asked to step up to the plate because nobody else can (that last, I'll admit, also applies to just about any Mothra), short of always being the guy that everybody but Batman asks for advice, short of having to be "the" superhero- to say nothing of his "death," and of the fact that his very nobility tortures him over some of his actions (the death of General Zod, for example).
Again those are not prices he is paying. He chooses to lead a double life, he doesn't have to do that. He also doesn't have to be "the" hero every time, there are plenty of others that will step up to the plate, again that is HIS choice to do so. His "Nobility" torturing him also isn't a price that he pays, that is just the morals and values that the Clarks brought him up with. Any normal person can suffer the same exact "Nobility" issues that Superman does.

For me? Yes. Why? Because from Odin on down, power or knowledge has its cost- and Mothra tends to wield more than nearly any other character, especially if you take the long view. Additionally, the latter incarnations of Mothra are portrayed as being so damn "human" that I cannot believe that the natural power they wield is their right. It feels like a gift (now, Mothra '61- that was a force of nature).
So because YOUR preception is that power must come with a cost, means that everything has to be that way? But not only must it come with a cost, it must come with a specific type of cost for you and the weilder is the one that always has to pay the cost. Interesting, then you must not like the majority of Toho and Daiei Kaiju.

Not entirely true. I really like the 1961 Mothra. I don't utterly despise Leo. I haven't seen Tokyo S.O.S. so I can't comment. The Rebirth Trilogy is really what gave rise to my general dislike for the character. Even in "Godzilla vs. Mothra" (the seed of many an anti-Mothra bias), I'm sorta fond of 'er... 'specially Momma Mothra.
I was only referring to the ROM Mothra's. Though you say your fond of the Adult Heisei Mothra, but her powers come at no price, so why would you be fond of her?

"Stronger" than the mother did not imply to me that the little larva was going to turn into Zee Uber-Moth, with added bells and whistles.
But that is YOUR problem not Tohos. Just because YOU weren't expecting what you got, does not make it wrong, nor does it mean they gave him additional powers. Maybe your expectations were set to low on how different Leo would be from his mother.

I pictured simply a more damage-resistant and perhaps faster Mothra, whose attacks Death Ghidorah might acvtually feel. Part of why I'm not totally averse to Leo, actually. As I said waaaaay back, Armor Mothra's my chief gripe.
So instead of getting YOUR Mothra that could damage Death Ghidorah and was faster and more damage resistant. We got a Mothra that had a lot of attacks that really couldn't even harm DG, just keep him in on spot for a short amount of time, enough for the Elias to seal him up.

Your saying that you don't like Leo for being so powerful and having so many attacks, yet the version of Leo that we actually got is weaker than the one you were expecting.

Is it just me or does anyone else see something wrong with this picture?

:confused:

Cheap shot, ese. If I really hated the Moth, I guarantee you I wouldn't have given as much ground as I have.
Cheap shot? :eyebrow: Hate to tell you but that isn't even remotely a shot nor was it cheap, it's simply an observation based on your comments. You also completely avoided the questions I posed to you as well. Which reinforces the opinion that you never even gave it any consideration, otherwise you actually would have answered them.

[Cole Deschain]

Sure it contridicts it. Your basing your argument on one specific instance that would never have happened under normal circumstances.

And going back in time or absorbing the power of Nili-Kanil are part of Mothra's everyday occurence? I'm not talking about the "basic" powers of a monster, I'm talking about the "excess" powers wielded by Burning Godzilla or Armor Mothra.

You didn't answer the question and Mothra's task doesn't matter, he is still paying a price.

Yes, actually, I did. I don;t consider it any price at all, given Mothra's "job description," and the fact that he wasn't at any point having to give up his duties to defend the planet. It's as if he took advantage of a cosmic version of daylight savings time.

It doesn't matter if the "species" works that way, they are still forced to pay a price just for being what they are.

As is every othger living thing, simply for the privilege of being alive.

Again you didn't answer the question I asked. I didn't ask if your mother would die for you, I asked you, if YOU feel that for you to be born your mother had to die, if that was a reasonable price to pay? Should your mother die for you to be born?

I'm not an insect, Jeff. Many of them do never get to meet their mothers. Some of them even eat her. Now, Mothra may be a very intelligent and "human" insect, but if you never know what you're missing, what price are you paying, exactly?

No I am not looking at Mothra like that at all, I am simply looking at him as a character, whether he is human, insect, fish, plant, mineral or anything else doesn't even matter.

Just covered this.

What I would do as Mothra doesn't have any real bearing on the isue at hand. Though since I would be a Mothra I would probably have the same feelings as every other Mothra towards protecting the planet and all that inhabit it.

Yes, actually, it does- if Mothra thought like a human, some of the "prices" you're naming would matter. But Mothra clearly does not.

No I know exactly what your saying, and I find it rather skewed, as you already stated, you don't like this version Mothra and you have a bias towards Godzilla.

And that matters on an opinion thread because...? At least I'm trying to work around my biases.

And exactly how much energy is he channeling? You have to be able to come up with something to suggest that Mothra is creating such a huge drain on the Earth. The problem is you can't because you have no idea how much power he needs to use for each move he uses.

Most life forms on this palnet don't launch energy beams out of every nook and cranny of their bodies, and we saw that Dagarah did drain his surroundings a great deal to do what he did. Now, Mothra certainly has a better deal than Dagarah (and began the movie less powerful), but the energy use is comparable. Your "long-term" argument does a lot to deflate this, I will gladly admit, and it wasn't something I'd thought about, given we always see events unfold in a roughly two-hour long movie.

Obvisouly you missed the point, think of it this way. If Gamera had 130 million years to draw in the power to use the Mana Beam, then he could have just sapped a little of the Earth's energy every day, week or year so as not to weaken it and release the Gyaos. Unfortunately he had to do it in one quick instant and it damaged the Earth greatly and set the Gyaos free. Doing it one way he paid a huge price, but if he did it another way he might have not paid any price for it at all.

And travelling through time didn;t burn a lot of Earth's energy in one go? I don;t care who you are, the power that stunut took was immense.

[Saruman]

And going back in time or absorbing the power of Nili-Kanil are part of Mothra's everyday occurence?
No they aren't but the difference here is that the powers given to Mothra were done so with his consent, they weren't thrust upon him with absolutely no choice in the matter like Fire Rodan did to Godzilla.

I'm not talking about the "basic" powers of a monster, I'm talking about the "excess" powers wielded by Burning Godzilla or Armor Mothra.
No you are talking about "basic" powers as well. As you have already stated numerous times, Mothra Leo's powers are not acceptable to you, and that is the base form with it's base powers.

Yes, actually, I did. I don;t consider it any price at all, given Mothra's "job description," and the fact that he wasn't at any point having to give up his duties to defend the planet. It's as if he took advantage of a cosmic version of daylight savings time.
Just because you choose to not accept it does not mean that it isn't a price that was paid.

As is every othger living thing, simply for the privilege of being alive.
Yes everything does die, but Kaiju are not normal. And I don't see anything telling you or any other person that the only way they can reproduce is if they die in doing so.

I'm not an insect, Jeff. Many of them do never get to meet their mothers. Some of them even eat her. Now, Mothra may be a very intelligent and "human" insect, but if you never know what you're missing, what price are you paying, exactly?
Mothra knows the price, why do you think she saved the Larva Leo. I dont know about you but I can't think of any insect that passes it's lifeforce/power down to it's offspring when it dies.

Just covered this.
Ok, if you say so.

Yes, actually, it does- if Mothra thought like a human, some of the "prices" you're naming would matter. But Mothra clearly does not.
Ok, so now which is it? Does Mothra think like a human or not as you have now claimed it both ways? Or do all the times you say she is a very intelligent and "human" insect not count?

And that matters on an opinion thread because...? At least I'm trying to work around my biases.
It matters because you have already stated you have a bias, and no I really don't see that you are trying to work around it as you claim because you keep reinforcing that you dislike ROM Mothra for the same reasons that you like Godzilla.

Most life forms on this palnet don't launch energy beams out of every nook and cranny of their bodies, and we saw that Dagarah did drain his surroundings a great deal to do what he did. Now, Mothra certainly has a better deal than Dagarah (and began the movie less powerful), but the energy use is comparable. Your "long-term" argument does a lot to deflate this, I will gladly admit, and it wasn't something I'd thought about, given we always see events unfold in a roughly two-hour long movie.
Dagarah didn't drain his surroundings, so I will assume you are referring to Death Ghidorah?

And travelling through time didn;t burn a lot of Earth's energy in one go? I don;t care who you are, the power that stunut took was immense.
It wasn't the Earths power that was used though. It was the power of the Elias, which is why Moll/Lora, don't remember which one it was turned into crystal. She was giving herself up so that Mothra could go back in time. But then I guess that wasn't a price to pay either the way you are looking at it.

[Cole Deschain]

No they aren't but the difference here is that the powers given to Mothra were done so with his consent, they weren't thrust upon him with absolutely no choice in the matter like Fire Rodan did to Godzilla.

In both cases it was "Do you want to be able to beat this foe?" It wasn't like Mothra was going to survive without those boosts. Some choice.

No you are talking about "basic" powers as well. As you have already stated numerous times, Mothra Leo's powers are not acceptable to you, and that is the base form with it's base powers.

Touche.

Just because you choose to not accept it does not mean that it isn't a price that was paid.

In your opinion. Kindly pay mine some respect. This is, as I've stated before, a thread about opinion.

Yes everything does die, but Kaiju are not normal. And I don't see anything telling you or any other person that the only way they can reproduce is if they die in doing so.

No, but I will die some day, whether I reproduce or not. I hardly see how this makes Mothra's situation much of a curse.

Mothra knows the price, why do you think she saved the Larva Leo. I dont know about you but I can't think of any insect that passes it's lifeforce/power down to it's offspring when it dies.

Except when they eat their parent, therby absorbing some of the proteins and such.

Ok, so now which is it? Does Mothra think like a human or not as you have now claimed it both ways? Or do all the times you say she is a very intelligent and "human" insect not count?

Mea culpa here. I have been unclear- the "human" nature of the Rebirth Mothra is also part of my problem with this particular incarnation of the bug. Because your points about emotion most certainly do apply as this particular insect is portrayed.

It matters because you have already stated you have a bias, and no I really don't see that you are trying to work around it as you claim because you keep reinforcing that you dislike ROM Mothra for the same reasons that you like Godzilla.

Jeff, if I didn't have a bias, this thread would not be full of my posts. We wouldn;t be disagreeing. And in an opinion thread, biases, while hardly evidence, cannot simply be flushed away like refuse.

Dagarah didn't drain his surroundings, so I will assume you are referring to Death Ghidorah?

His berem were hardly good for his environment, bhut now that you mention it, all of Rebirth Mothra's foes have very odd (and energy-intensive) diets.

It wasn't the Earths power that was used though. It was the power of the Elias, which is why Moll/Lora, don't remember which one it was turned into crystal. She was giving herself up so that Mothra could go back in time. But then I guess that wasn't a price to pay either the way you are looking at it.

Hrrrrm. Seems I forgot that part. And since I personally regard the Elias as being a vital part of Mothra, the price there actually counts.

[EternalMothra]

Why do I dislike Rebirth Mothra's various transformations? I can think of at least a couple major reasons why I personally dislike them:

-They're ridiculous and don't make any sense for the character. Yes, Heisei Godzilla did grow more powerful as the series progressed, but his power-ups were fairly logical for his character, and he was never transformed into something that he's not suppose to be (i.e., he never grew wings when he need to fight a flying enemy, he never needed to grow some silly exoskeleton to resist a foes attacks). All Godzilla ever did was grow larger and have the power of his beam increased.....both very logical concepts. Rebirth Mothra, on the other hand, keeps transforming into what appears to be a completely different creature each movie. Mothra Leo was okay, but what the &%#! is up with this "Aqua Mothra"? These transformations don't seem to make a whole lot of sense for the character, and they often come out of left field.

-They're cheap. Okay, I can deal with Mothra becoming more powerful to deal with a foe (as long as her evolution makes sense), but don't make her so powerful that she kills the enemy in 10 seconds. It may work in her little world, but it's highly dissapointing for the audience watching the movie;)

Anyway, for all the complaints I can make about Mothra's transformations, they're not the primary reason I hate the RoM trilogy. What I hate is the sickningly cutesy nature of the films (and this is coming from a person who enjoys most of the Showa Gamera movies), and how Mothra was reduced to being a kiddie hero. I didn't care for Godzilla being turned into a cutesy superhero in the 70s, and I don't care for the same happening to Mothra.
Mothra's transformations make a lot of sense. In ROM Mothra Leo knew she wouldn't be able to defeat Death Ghidorah, so she found a powersource, the Tree of Life, if she would have just metamorphisized into a regular Mothra she be no stronger than her mother.

Aqua Mothra makes sense as well, she had to adapt to the water so she could defeat Dagarla.

Armor Mothra makes sense because Rainbow Mothra was absorbing the Earth's power slowly over 130 million years, in result it made her powerful enough that when she emerged in the future, she'd be able to defeat Grand Ghidorah. Eternal Mothra is Armor Mothra, but she has armor, that one is sensible as well.

[Saruman]

In both cases it was "Do you want to be able to beat this foe?" It wasn't like Mothra was going to survive without those boosts. Some choice.
That doesn't matter though. The point is that Mothra is doing this of his own will. He makes the decision to accept the power. Godzilla never had that choice, he was given a power that was going to kill him no matter what, the outcome never changed.

In your opinion. Kindly pay mine some respect. This is, as I've stated before, a thread about opinion.
I respect your opinions. But remember that opinions are formed from YOUR perception of the course of events in the film. If your perception is wrong, then your opinion is flawed. Case in point, you forgot that Moll/Lora gave Mothra the power to go back in time by basically killing herself turning her body to crystal.

No, but I will die some day, whether I reproduce or not. I hardly see how this makes Mothra's situation much of a curse.
You still never answered my question from earlier which will give you the answer you want, so I will ask it again here.

IF YOUR MOTHER HAS TO DIE FOR YOU TO BE BORN, IS THAT A FAIR PRICE TO PAY FOR YOUR BIRTH?

Except when they eat their parent, therby absorbing some of the proteins and such.
I think thats slightly different then giving your pure lifeforce to your offspring. This isn't proteins that they are exchanging here. The Larva will live even without the transfer of power, but it needs the power to reach its full strength when it transforms.

Mea culpa here. I have been unclear- the "human" nature of the Rebirth Mothra is also part of my problem with this particular incarnation of the bug. Because your points about emotion most certainly do apply as this particular insect is portrayed.
It's the human like part that makes the character so interesting. It allows for an emotional feeling that you really only get from Gamera, though it isn't as well done as Gamera.

Jeff, if I didn't have a bias, this thread would not be full of my posts. We wouldn;t be disagreeing. And in an opinion thread, biases, while hardly evidence, cannot simply be flushed away like refuse.
You don't need to be have a bias to discuss/debate about a subject. I have no bias for or against Mothra, but that doesn't stop me from discussing the character. Overall the Mothra Trilogy isn't that great, but there are good things about it and it's actually the most cohesive Toho kaiju storyline, especially one involving time travel.

His berem were hardly good for his environment, bhut now that you mention it, all of Rebirth Mothra's foes have very odd (and energy-intensive) diets.
I don't believe the berem absorb energy though. Dagarah absorbs pollution though which helps him make berem. I will have to check this out to be sure though, it's been a while since I watched this one.

[Cole Deschain]

Godzilla never had that choice, he was given a power that was going to kill him no matter what, the outcome never changed.

Which I find more moving. Now, if Mothra's power caused equally terminal burnout, the "decision" part would certainly knock me back on my heels.

You still never answered my question from earlier which will give you the answer you want, so I will ask it again here.

IF YOUR MOTHER HAS TO DIE FOR YOU TO BE BORN, IS THAT A FAIR PRICE TO PAY FOR YOUR BIRTH?

I''ve answered your damn question twice already, Jeff.

But since you seem terminally unable or unwilling to read between the lines, let me spell it out-

No, not for me. But I'm not a god-moth whose entire existence is predicated upon the sacrifice in question. So no, I wouldn't. But if that was how my entire species operated, I'm sure I would feel differently.


I think thats slightly different then giving your pure lifeforce to your offspring. This isn't proteins that they are exchanging here. The Larva will live even without the transfer of power, but it needs the power to reach its full strength when it transforms.

And? If, as you say, the sacrificice is inevitable, the technical biological hows and whys don;t really matter.

It's the human like part that makes the character so interesting. It allows for an emotional feeling that you really only get from Gamera, though it isn't as well done as Gamera.

Really? You think so? I disagree, but it's not a debate that can really go anywhere.

Suffice it to say that for me. the "humanity" of a giant monster is more interesting when it sneaks up on you.

You don't need to be have a bias to discuss/debate about a subject.

But I do need one to care enough to argue with you for four pages. Otherwise, I wouldn't take this abuse. ;)

I don't believe the berem absorb energy though. Dagarah absorbs pollution though which helps him make berem. I will have to check this out to be sure though, it's been a while since I watched this one.

Well, they help Dagarah eat, so I'd say they either absorb some energy, or he converts what they draw in into energy. It's worth mentioning, however, that if the berem only ate pollution, Dagarah wouldn't have been the problem he turned out o be, for either Mothra or Nili-Kanil.

[PyrasTerran]

-They're ridiculous and don't make any sense for the character. Yes, Heisei Godzilla did grow more powerful as the series progressed, but his power-ups were fairly logical for his character, and he was never transformed into something that he's not suppose to be (i.e., he never grew wings when he need to fight a flying enemy, he never needed to grow some silly exoskeleton to resist a foes attacks). All Godzilla ever did was grow larger and have the power of his beam increased.....both very logical concepts. Rebirth Mothra, on the other hand, keeps transforming into what appears to be a completely different creature each movie. Mothra Leo was okay, but what the &%#! is up with this "Aqua Mothra"? These transformations don't seem to make a whole lot of sense for the character, and they often come out of left field.

This reason has absolutely no merits, I'm sorry. I can understand that you don't like them by aesthetics, but you can't accuse them of not making any sense. Mothra evolved these abilities for each situation. Fighting an underwater opponent? Aqua Mothra. Need lots of physical power? Armor Mothra. Each one adds in, it's not like she's becoming Fire Mothra(not a real form, just an example) and attacking Dagarah with that, or Aqua Mothra against Grand Ghidorah.

-They're cheap. Okay, I can deal with Mothra becoming more powerful to deal with a foe (as long as her evolution makes sense), but don't make her so powerful that she kills the enemy in 10 seconds. It may work in her little world, but it's highly dissapointing for the audience watching the movie

Highly dissapointing for you. Keep in mind there are people who found it entertaining and good.

Anyway, for all the complaints I can make about Mothra's transformations, they're not the primary reason I hate the RoM trilogy. What I hate is the sickningly cutesy nature of the films (and this is coming from a person who enjoys most of the Showa Gamera movies), and how Mothra was reduced to being a kiddie hero. I didn't care for Godzilla being turned into a cutesy superhero in the 70s, and I don't care for the same happening to Mothra.

Alas, this is my gripe with ROM as well. Too many kids... Give her a more serious role like Gamera Heisei or somethin', then maybe she'd get a little more respect.

[EternalMothra]

One thing I don't like about the Mothra in the Heisei Trilogy is that the same old routine happens through out all of them: Some powerful monster becomes a threat to Earth. A version of Mothra fights the monster and then gets beaten. Then, Mothra does a super-mega hyper power-up charge ultra-plasma beam-barraging transformation and easily beats the monster.

It gets boring and ridiculous.

The Showa Mothra and newer Mothra are very good monsters, though.
The designs for Mothra's Heisei transformations are pretty stylish, too, but they are too damn powerful.

The same goes for Heisei Godzilla- he always manages to win with some ultra-powerful beam blast. :sleeping:I agree with you on that. I think that they should have changed things a bit, and made her opponents more challenging. The transformations made sense but they were far too powerful. For Mothra Leo's case, she absorbed power from the ancient tree, which gave her more power. It is just like Godzilla going to a nuclear reactor and absorbing the energy, but the Earth's energy doesn't have such severe side effects. In Aqua Mothra's case, she needed to adapt to the water, so she'd be able to battle Dagarla. Armor Mothra does make sense too.....She went to the past, was cocooned and lay dorment, absorbing the Earth's energy slowly for millions of years. Do you imagine, just how much energy Mothra must have stored in that great amount of time. In some cases yes, some of the transformations were too powerful, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the movies are bad. They aren't Godzilla movies, so they don't necessarily need to be exactly the same.

[Solar_Behemoth]

And with the magic of manipulation we get!!:

One thing I don't like about the Gamera in the Heisei Trilogy is that the same old routine happens through out all of them: Some powerful monster becomes a threat to Earth. Gamera fights the monster and then gets beaten. Then, Gamera does a super-mega hyper power-up charge ultra-plasma out-of-your-*** move and swiftly beats the monster.

It gets boring and ridiculous.

LOL. Wise-guy. :D
I agree with you on Gamera doing the same thing as Heisei Mothra AND Heisei Godzilla, which made the Gamera and Godzilla Heisei series (I never admitted this before) alot less enjoyable and predictable to a certain extent. But at least the Heisei series of Gamera didn't involve consistant beam battles. There are plenty of physical combat parts that come to mind when thinking about the Heisei Gamera series, but not too many show up for Heisei Mothra and Godzilla.

Toho seemed to have really been into pretty beams in the 90s. In reality, they were probably just lazy, IMO.

Ahem.. Gamera and Godzilla are both guilty of this many more times. Why do people keep bringing this reason up if it's only a hypocricy?

Well I sure did about Godzilla, even before you made this post. ;)
But Showa Godzilla (okay, maybe the 70s sometimes) and Shinsei Godzilla were not bad.

[PyrasTerran]

LOL. Wise-guy.
I agree with you on Gamera doing the same thing as Heisei Mothra AND Heisei Godzilla, which made the Gamera and Godzilla Heisei series (I never admitted this before) alot less enjoyable and predictable to a certain extent. But at least the Heisei series of Gamera didn't involve consistant beam battles. There are plenty of physical combat parts that come to mind when thinking about the Heisei Gamera series, but not too many show up for Heisei Mothra and Godzilla.

Toho seemed to have really been into pretty beams in the 90s. In reality, they were probably just lazy, IMO.

That, I have 2 things to say to:

It is very likely that Toho simply used their money to make lots of beamy attacks instead of making physical combat-ness. Japan's kids at that time I believe was in a sort of "beam happy" era. DBZ, DBGT, and the like swarmed the media.

It's also a simple choice of preference. Some people may actually prefer beam battles over hand-to-hand combat. Just look at what makes up more than half of DBZ.

[Solar_Behemoth]

That, I have 2 things to say to:

It is very likely that Toho simply used their money to make lots of beamy attacks instead of making physical combat-ness. Japan's kids at that time I believe was in a sort of "beam happy" era. DBZ, DBGT, and the like swarmed the media.


That's very true.
It is plausible that one of the major reasons the Heisei series were so successful (I believe they all did very well in the 90s box office) because they went with the current popularity of beam-fighting style. Kids loved them. Too bad all the physical fighting was done poorly, IMO.

Then again, that doesn't explain why the Mothra trilogy failed.... my guess is that audiences only appeal to Mothra being in a film with Godzilla.

[EternalMothra]

I don't mind a couple beams but when it comes to like, five million of them, that is a bit too much. Showa Godzilla wasn't really beamy, he just somehow made himself able to defeat the monster.......and you guys say that the ROM trilogy was bad......

[PyrasTerran]

Then again, that doesn't explain why the Mothra trilogy failed.... my guess is that audiences only appeal to Mothra being in a film with Godzilla.

This is because the fights aren't that exciting, and the kids annoying, and the movie very inconsistent with itself. It's perfectly fine to hate the ROM movies for what they are, but it's ignorance to blame any of it on the kaiju and how they operate. After all, they got a flying turtle to work in Gamera.


Gamera never really showed any sort of pull move outta *** move besides the mana ray, which he only used once. The plasma hand makes perfect sence, he has absorbed energies and heat sence his first movie back in the 60s, it only makes even more sence for him to form a new limb from it.

Uhm, did you ever see Showa Gamera has as much control with heat and fire as he did in the Heisei Gamera movie? The plasma hand may have made sense but it was still a technique that came out of left field, just like the absorbing-an-entire-explosion in GOTU.

Argh.. Once again the excuse that "oh it makes sense when anyone else does it" is being used... How does it NOT make sense for Mothra to evolve to adapt to the environment of his opponent? How does it NOT make sense for a magical/mystical race of beings to know many many techniques?? Is it because he's a moth? So I guess you would classify turtle with fire ANY day, huh?

[RobDowneyJr]

Did any of you see ROB, i like mothra, but those movies just did not cut it. The damn little kids, and the furby, and aside from Grand Ghidorah the enemies just didn't have the staying power. I constantly found myself saying, "damn, if that was godzilla, Des-Ghidorah, or Dagarah would have been toast"

Plus the twin fairies sub stories did not do it for me.
As for mothra's transformations, there needs to be some kind of limit to her abilities. She goes from giant moth to pshycadelic laser show without any kind of explanation. There needs to be more coherence in her powers/abilities, at least in this series.
Come on, Aqua mothra, Little mothras everywhere, armor mothra, it's a bit much. hey, how about, battle tank transforming mothra, she can turn into an M-1 Abrams tank, that would be cool

[EternalMothra]

The movies seem to be aimed towards children, but what is wrong with watching a movie that is a bit childish. The trilogy has decent special effects, it isn't absolutely terrible.

[EternalMothra]

[/QUOTE] As for mothra's transformations, there needs to be some kind of limit to her abilities. She goes from giant moth to pshycadelic laser show without any kind of explanation. There needs to be more coherence in her powers/abilities, at least in this series.
Come on, Aqua mothra, Little mothras everywhere, armor mothra, it's a bit much. hey, how about, battle tank transforming mothra, she can turn into an M-1 Abrams tank, that would be cool[/QUOTE]Not all of Mothra's transformations are out of the blue. There is an explanation for her transformations, they have been mentioned on this thread multiple times.

Mothra Leo: She needed to transform, and she realized that she wouldn't be strong enough in her regular adult stage so she went to the ancient tree and absorbed the Earth's energy so she could become more powerful........

Aqua Mothra: She had to adapt to the water so she could battle Dagarha and defeat him......

Armor Mothra: She was cocooned and she absorbed the Earth's energy for an extended period of time(millions of years), which gave her great power.......

Her transformations do have logical reasons. You just have to look at the details.

[Draco Starcloud]

I'll throw my two bits in.

I thought ROM 1 and 2 were boring as heck because of the human aspect of the films. The kaiju fights were alright. I never had much hope of seeing a tooth-and-claw fight between a Mothra and a Ghidorah in the first place, so nothing lost there. Dagarla and Mothra also did most of their fighting in the air where beams make more sense to me.

As for transformations, I think Leo had too many different forms. Larva, Imago, and Armor are good, though I think Armor could have been powered down a little to make for a better fight with Grand G. I might not have liked Aqua form, but the plot needed it. Light Speed could have been skipped if they'd just come up with some Elias talisman or gone back to that temple from ROM2; I know the temple was destroyed, but it would have made more sense than giving Mothra another form. After giving some thought to Eternal Mothra, I guess it could be called a matured Rainbow Mothra rather than a new form. I mean, Mothra was in a cocoon for millions of years, she's bound to have changed in ways other than growing armor.

All in all, I think three forms of Mothra could have been eliminated without hurting the storylline of ROM too badly. Other than that, I don't have a problem with Mothra Leo getting new forms.

[Saruman]

Well, I like the trilogy for what it is I guess, but I would have liked to see Mothra battle her foes more physically. Wouldn't that be more interesting????
I would say no simply because Mothra isn't designed with the intent of being a physical kaiju. Even in the Showa era where Kaiju were extremely physical, Toho used the Mothra Larva much more than they did the Mothra Imago form. Mothra isn't like Rodan, he/she doesnt have a beak or claws that can be used effectively in physical combat, so they had to come up with something different for Mothra, which they did in the Heisei series and ROM Trilogy.

[Saruman]

I have a problem with AquaMothra being able to split into the fairy mothras and then reform again.
Why? Mothra was already capable of doing that in the first movie. Why is it suddenly a problem in the second movie?

[EternalMothra]

I would say no simply because Mothra isn't designed with the intent of being a physical kaiju. Even in the Showa era where Kaiju were extremely physical, Toho used the Mothra Larva much more than they did the Mothra Imago form. Mothra isn't like Rodan, he/she doesnt have a beak or claws that can be used effectively in physical combat, so they had to come up with something different for Mothra, which they did in the Heisei series and ROM Trilogy.
I have to agree......The only time I recall her in the trilogy battling physically was her battle with Cretacious King Ghidorah. She was using her claws and banging her head on his. I thought that was pretty cool......