Hedorah vs. GxMG Godzilla [Archive] - kaijuphile.com Forums

MirrenDono

December 23rd, 2004, 09:27 AM

^ You're overlooking Kiryu Goji big time

His beam pushed Kiryu back because his armor is powerful as hell. Of course it's not gonna burn him up. This is where people always think Goji's beam is weak. Well it's not. It has so much radiation that it shut Kiryu down after blasting him a few times, if I recall yes?

Plus, it's force is so great that the first time he nailed Kiryu he sent him flying back God knows how far. If he could keep that thing going in one blast on Hedorah, it could take him out

Hand to hand wise, he's not bad. He's not amazing, but he's good. He's got nice rams, good claws swipes that are strong enough to break apart Kiryu's one shoulder cannon in one blow, and his leg strength is beyond amazing. With one simple kick, not even a hell lotta force to it, he sends Kiryu soaring backwards straight into a building. Yeah, I don't think I need to explain how that's impressive

Then his tail power is also nice. In the beginning, we see him destroy the top of a maser cannon. Tail flies by, rips it off. That's good ability. Why? Because since he only took the top off, we can suspect as with normal physics that it had so much force to it that it would only take out a focused point of the target. He concentrated himself with it so well that it managed to do that. It's a deadly weapon that's overlooked and sadly was rarely used in the movie.

Also, he doesn't seem to be one of the brightest Godzillas around. Taking a barrage of missiles from your opponent and not doing anything about it is not good.He was probably trying to get a test of Kiryu's strength, plus, they obviously did positively nothing to him. Also he could've just been disorientated a bit, there was always a large amount of explosions. I mean after all, as you go further into the fight, he's attacking back even through some of Kiryu's assaults. Goji has shown to take a move without doing anything four times if I believe, and then in the second fight he goes in for battle.

Kiryu Goji could've pwned Kiryu if it weren't for the Herons, and Kiryu-Mosu-Goji could do the same against Kiryu V.2 if it weren't for Mothra or the Mothra Larva.

The Great MM

December 23rd, 2004, 02:10 PM

GXMG's beam won't dry Hedorah out, but its gonna plow strait through him. To many people 100% overrate Hedorah's hide. It withstood Showa G's because his wasn't hot enough to effect him and didn't have enough strength to plow. It even said in the film, bullets and shells plow strait through him. GXMG's is even more force, and what ever is in the way of that beam is gonna be blown out his back, and it will just reduce and reduce and reduce Hedorah until nothing is left.

The stuff isn't gonna come together unless it lands in water, otherwise, the pieces will just stay scattered, leaving Godzilla the victor of the overrated smog monster.

Shin lvl2 Goji

December 23rd, 2004, 03:35 PM

The Great MM

December 23rd, 2004, 03:37 PM

The force behind this beam is extremely powerful, absolutely no question about it. As for the heat there was a scene where Godzilla melted some tanks/maser cannons. I'm interested to see how many people think if that much heat is enough to fully dry out Hedorah or not. Your opinions?

The heat of the beam looks no more hotter then Showa Goji's, so that won't do much. But the force of it is gonna tear Hedorah to pieces.

MirrenDono

December 23rd, 2004, 05:50 PM

Nah, it's hotter. If I recall, if was almost disintigrating a T-90 tank in Tokyo S.O.S, while Goji's in the Showa days could only melt a tank at an above average speed, and only M24 Chaffe, Sherman and T-61 Tanks.

Mecha-Rodan

December 23rd, 2004, 06:44 PM

Everyone is also overlooking that Godzilla didn't attack Kiryu at first because he sensed his fellow Godzilla's presense inside of him. He probably thought that those missiles were coming from somewhere else. It wasn't until Kiryu started firing his maser beam at him that Godzilla recognized that he was attacking him (he knewe that the other Godzilla had a breath weapon, so when Kiryu fired his maser beam, he thought it was Goji '54 was firing his atomic breath at him.... Its a problem of understanding animals and family ties, lol). Remember that Godzilla had never faced Mothra before, and yet he attacked her as soon as he met her. Godzilla isn't gonna recognize Hedorah, so he won't care what new tricks he pulls, he's just going to keep on attacking.

kent

December 23rd, 2004, 10:42 PM

^ You're overlooking Kiryu Goji big time

Actually, I was being very generous with what I had stated.

His beam pushed Kiryu back because his armor is powerful as hell

Kiryu's armor has nothing to do with it. If his beam was powerful, it still would have burnt Kiryu's armor. It's like taking a blow-torch to a nickel. Sure it will push it some, but it will still burn it. Kiryu's armor didn't have any burns or let alone severe burn marks.

This is where people always think Goji's beam is weak. Well it's not. It has so much radiation that it shut Kiryu down after blasting him a few times, if I recall yes?

Wrong. If I recall, Kiryu was down and had a little bit of trouble getting up. Once it was almost on its feet, Godzilla blasted it and it was sent flying a few hundred yards where the impact practically "took the wind" out of it. On top of that, the power source was empty.

Plus, it's force is so great that the first time he nailed Kiryu he sent him flying back God knows how far. If he could keep that thing going in one blast on Hedorah, it could take him out

Here you are contradicting yourself Mirren. I said the beam had more push than burn and you are practically saying the same thing. Yes it did push Kiryu and did do damage to it because of the push, but do you think it will hurt or destroy a walking mass of pollution? Absolutely not. The beam will do nothing more than to possibly distort Hedorah's molecule arrangement. Even in the film, Hedorah's "skin" if you will, sparked. But he wasn't mortally wounded nor was he at all by Godzilla's beam. The only time he was hurt when Godzilla took out his eye and when he was being electricuted.

Hand to hand wise, he's not bad. He's not amazing, but he's good. He's got nice rams, good claws swipes that are strong enough to break apart Kiryu's one shoulder cannon in one blow

The shoulder cannon didn't have much mass behind it so it was inevitable something like that could break off. But when it came to putting blows onto Kiryu, it was very ineffective.

and his leg strength is beyond amazing. With one simple kick, not even a hell lotta force to it, he sends Kiryu soaring backwards straight into a building. Yeah, I don't think I need to explain how that's impressive

It is very impressive. But you know how many times he end up kicking Kiryu for the rest of the film and in GMMG? Zero. That clearly shows that he does not prefer to use his legs. Even against small opponents like the Mothra Larvae.

Then his tail power is also nice. In the beginning, we see him destroy the top of a maser cannon. Tail flies by, rips it off. That's good ability. Why? Because since he only took the top off, we can suspect as with normal physics that it had so much force to it that it would only take out a focused point of the target. He concentrated himself with it so well that it managed to do that. It's a deadly weapon that's overlooked and sadly was rarely used in the movie.

Exactly. Like his legs, he obviously doesn't prefer to use his tail. I would also like to add that it doesn't take much to take out a Maser Cannon.

He was probably trying to get a test of Kiryu's strength

You think that when they met the second time he would actually attack. He didn't. He still somewhat stood around taking shots. He barely even fought Kiryu the second time around.

they obviously did positively nothing to him.

I'm sure exactly what you're talking about here, but I have the notion you're talking about Kiryu's powers? If that's the case, look at their first battle. Kiryu's missiles obviously put Godzilla in some sort of pain otherwise he wouldn't have bellowed. Look at Kiryu's sword as well. Penetrating his hide and sending electricity into the wound. Also, practically owning Godzilla in HTH combat and tossing him several city blocks...please don't tell me that those things did nothing to him.

Also he could've just been disorientated a bit, there was always a large amount of explosions.

There weren't many of them actually. They basically were combating HTH. I doubt he would be disoriented during that. But if he was, he will be very disoriented in this battle!

I mean after all, as you go further into the fight, he's attacking back even through some of Kiryu's assaults.

It obviously wasn't enough to really take out Kiryu. He was by no means impressive during that whole battle.

Goji has shown to take a move without doing anything four times if I believe, and then in the second fight he goes in for battle.

He did go into battle. But he still ended up losing the fight.

Kiryu Goji could've pwned Kiryu if it weren't for the Herons, and Kiryu-Mosu-Goji could do the same against Kiryu V.2 if it weren't for Mothra or the Mothra Larva.

That is very possible. Although, Godzilla really didn't hold his own very well most of the time against Kiryu. Plus, he should have finished Kiryu off when it was down and out in the first film. It didn't; clearly showing his lack of intelligence to finishing off an opponent. Plus, Kiryu has limited stamina and power due to it having to powerup. In this battle against Hedorah, he is fighting an opponent with unlimited power and stamina. There is no way Hedorah will tire out unless Godzilla goes for his eyes (even then he still kept coming), or if humans intervene and take Hedorah out. To be quite honest, I doubt very many kaiju could take Hedorah out. The kaiju is practically invincible.

GXMG's beam won't dry Hedorah out, but its gonna plow strait through him. To many people 100% overrate Hedorah's hide. It withstood Showa G's because his wasn't hot enough to effect him and didn't have enough strength to plow. It even said in the film, bullets and shells plow strait through him. GXMG's is even more force, and what ever is in the way of that beam is gonna be blown out his back, and it will just reduce and reduce and reduce Hedorah until nothing is left.

Highly unlikely MM. Like you said, it won't dry him out, but you seem to think that with each blow, it will just evaporate or dissapate Hedorah? Kinda taking both sides there but somewhat contradicting to what you are saying. If parts of Hedorah blow off, they will either rejoin him or "make" another Hedorah. Which would be even worse for Godzilla.

The force behind this beam is extremely powerful, absolutely no question about it. As for the heat there was a scene where Godzilla melted some tanks/maser cannons. I'm interested to see how many people think if that much heat is enough to fully dry out Hedorah or not. Your opinions?

In my opinion, no. The films clearly shows this particular Godzilla beam has more push behind it.

The heat of the beam looks no more hotter then Showa Goji's, so that won't do much. But the force of it is gonna tear Hedorah to pieces.

I pretty much stated this in your quote above. But I can't resist saying the same thing again: It will rip him up, but it won't destroy him. Hedorah won't die until it is dried up. You even have clearly stated this beam is not hot enough.

Nah, it's hotter. If I recall, if was almost disintigrating a T-90 tank in Tokyo S.O.S, while Goji's in the Showa days could only melt a tank at an above average speed, and only M24 Chaffe, Sherman and T-61 Tanks.

While it did desintegrate the tank, it did not melt the armor or even burn Kiryu.

Everyone is also overlooking that Godzilla didn't attack Kiryu at first because he sensed his fellow Godzilla's presense inside of him.

I personally don't believe that because there is no clear-cut evidence suggesting that.

PyrasTerran

December 23rd, 2004, 11:19 PM

^ You're overlooking Kiryu Goji big time

Alot of people do that, I hate it.

This is where people always think Goji's beam is weak. Well it's not. It has so much radiation that it shut Kiryu down after blasting him a few times, if I recall yes?

Yes. And it was so radioactive the pilots had to wear special suits to get near Kiryu.

Wrong. If I recall, Kiryu was down and had a little bit of trouble getting up. Once it was almost on its feet, Godzilla blasted it and it was sent flying a few hundred yards where the impact practically "took the wind" out of it. On top of that, the power source was empty.

You recall incorrectly. Kiryu was totally KO'd, the shot fried what energy reseves he had left and they were forced to borrow the energy of all of Tokyo to recharge him. When he gets back up, he's hit in the back again and sent back to the floor. This knocks out the remote-control capabilities and Akane has to pilot Kiryu manually.

The radioactivity of Kiryu Goji's beam is brutal.

Everyone is also overlooking that Godzilla didn't attack Kiryu at first because he sensed his fellow Godzilla's presense inside of him.

Actually, Godzilla never attacked first. He was in Japan to rampage, nothing more. He only attacked when he was first attacked. But, once he was on the offensive, he was tough.

That doesn't matter anyway because KK rule of thumb is that each kaiju is out to kill each other no matter what.

The Great MM

December 24th, 2004, 02:00 AM

Highly unlikely MM. Like you said, it won't dry him out, but you seem to think that with each blow, it will just evaporate or dissapate Hedorah? Kinda taking both sides there but somewhat contradicting to what you are saying. If parts of Hedorah blow off, they will either rejoin him or "make" another Hedorah. Which would be even worse for Godzilla.

No. Heres an example. Take mud, and somehow hold it in the air, and punch your hand through it. Your hand is gonna plow through it and send pieces flying, the same would be with Hedorah and any other concussion beam or blast. These pieces will not be able to rego into Hedorah if there is no water around (we saw this at the end of Gvs.H) where the pieces simply laid everywhere, and we know there were still Hedrium in it because it was wet. Yet the pieces stayed in one place and didn't move.

Soundwave

December 24th, 2004, 08:43 AM

But Hedorah's sludge has properties that deflects [Showa] Goji's beam.. Will it do the same to/with GxMG's?

PyrasTerran

December 24th, 2004, 10:38 AM

If the blast is able to punch holes through hedorah, the pieces that are sent flying will likely not take on a life of their own...

Gorjirus

December 24th, 2004, 12:49 PM

Kiryu's armor has nothing to do with it. If his beam was powerful, it still would have burnt Kiryu's armor. It's like taking a blow-torch to a nickel. Sure it will push it some, but it will still burn it. Kiryu's armor didn't have any burns or let alone severe burn marks.

That is kindof the point. The nickel is weak, thus, it burns. But, Kiryu's armor is strong enough that it DOESN'T burn. Thus proving Kiryu's armor's strength.

It is very impressive. But you know how many times he end up kicking Kiryu for the rest of the film and in GMMG? Zero. That clearly shows that he does not prefer to use his legs. Even against small opponents like the Mothra Larvae.

Did he have a chance to do that attack again? I don't believe so.

I would also like to add that it doesn't take much to take out a Maser Cannon.

Wither you didn't read what he said, or you didn't understand. It was the fact the tail swipe ONLY took off the top and did not damage the rest of the maser. It is like trying to cut a candle in half without topplint the entire thing with the broadside of a sword. It is easy with the blade's edge, but not with the broadside.

Although, Godzilla really didn't hold his own very well most of the time against Kiryu

Have you missed the movies? One-on-one, Godzilla beat Kiryu almost easily. But with human intervention, Kiryu managed to pull out a victory.

Plus, he should have finished Kiryu off when it was down and out in the first film. It didn't; clearly showing his lack of intelligence to finishing off an opponent.

Not neccesarily. Kiryu is one of Godzilla's own, so he isn't just going to blatenly destroy it. And besides, when Kiryu is shut down, in the animalistic sense, he is DEAD. So, why would Godzilla try to destroy a dead opponent?

While it did desintegrate the tank, it did not melt the armor or even burn Kiryu.

Which also helps prove how stong Kiryu's armor is.

MirrenDono

December 24th, 2004, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by kent
Actually, I was being very generous with what I had stated.
That's about as truthful as Bill Clinton's famous claim

Here you are contradicting yourself Mirren. I said the beam had more push than burn and you are practically saying the same thing. Yes it did push Kiryu and did do damage to it because of the push, but do you think it will hurt or destroy a walking mass of pollution? Absolutely not. The beam will do nothing more than to possibly distort Hedorah's molecule arrangement. Even in the film, Hedorah's "skin" if you will, sparked. But he wasn't mortally wounded nor was he at all by Godzilla's beam. The only time he was hurt when Godzilla took out his eye and when he was being electricuted.
Nice try

I didn't contradict myself, I made a comment on how powerful the force is of his beam, and that will damage Hedorah greatly. Hedorah can only be killed by completely being blasted away, or dried out. Goji can't do that with his beam, but he can do the first. It's obvious it's force is as strong or stronger than GMK Goji's beam, and since Hedorah can't regenerate outside of water, Goji's gonna blast through him like tissue. He likes to use his beam, and he can hold it up for several seconds. Hedorah will be half a Hedorah after one blast. One or two more, victory for Kiryu Goji

The shoulder cannon didn't have much mass behind it so it was inevitable something like that could break off. But when it came to putting blows onto Kiryu, it was very ineffective.
Where the heck do you get this? It was able to push Goji back for quite a long time and gave him a hard time for him even to get if off. It's got many cannons for firing missiles, so it's gotta have a lot of mass to it. Try to back your statements next time.

And are we forgetting that Goji completely destroyed the cannon in one blow?

Exactly. Like his legs, he obviously doesn't prefer to use his tail. I would also like to add that it doesn't take much to take out a Maser Cannon.
Wow, thank you for ignoring everything I said about it

You think that when they met the second time he would actually attack. He didn't. He still somewhat stood around taking shots. He barely even fought Kiryu the second time around.
Pyras and Gorjirus got most of that first line, and unlike the first fight though he charged straight in only after a few rocket fire.

Barely fought him? You watching the actual movie? He was going toe-to-toe with him physically, breaking him apart piece by piece, and then blasting him away. Goji had him down and out twice, and both times he got distracted by military attack or the herons. Also he didn't fight as much because it didn't take much to put Kiryu down for himself.

It obviously wasn't enough to really take out Kiryu. He was by no means impressive during that whole battle.
And again, he had him down twice, and both times he was distracted by other attacks. Watch the movie again or actually read what we've said about him. This is your most inane comment yet

He did go into battle. But he still ended up losing the fight.
...I take back what I said above...

Gorjiurs and Pyras got to where I couldn't in time, thanks guys ;)

kent

December 24th, 2004, 10:41 PM

You recall incorrectly. Kiryu was totally KO'd, the shot fried what energy reseves he had left and they were forced to borrow the energy of all of Tokyo to recharge him. When he gets back up, he's hit in the back again and sent back to the floor. This knocks out the remote-control capabilities and Akane has to pilot Kiryu manually.

The radioactivity of Kiryu Goji's beam is brutal.

My bad. After watching the film, his radioactivity is pretty strong. But even when Hedorah was shot with Godzilla's beam, all it did was make Hedorah spark. Nothing more. I still doubt it will affect Hedorah.

No. Heres an example. Take mud, and somehow hold it in the air, and punch your hand through it. Your hand is gonna plow through it and send pieces flying, the same would be with Hedorah and any other concussion beam or blast. These pieces will not be able to rego into Hedorah if there is no water around (we saw this at the end of Gvs.H) where the pieces simply laid everywhere, and we know there were still Hedrium in it because it was wet. Yet the pieces stayed in one place and didn't move.

There's a difference between punching mud and blasting it with a beam though MM. Godzilla used his beam several times on Hedorah and nothing was blasted off of Hedorah.

That is kindof the point. The nickel is weak, thus, it burns. But, Kiryu's armor is strong enough that it DOESN'T burn. Thus proving Kiryu's armor's strength.

Did you ever realize though that his beam may not be hot?

Did he have a chance to do that attack again? I don't believe so.

There was still plenty of battle left after he kicked Kiryu. He also could have done it again in GMMG. But he didn't.

Wither you didn't read what he said, or you didn't understand. It was the fact the tail swipe ONLY took off the top and did not damage the rest of the maser. It is like trying to cut a candle in half without topplint the entire thing with the broadside of a sword. It is easy with the blade's edge, but not with the broadside.

That anaolgy really doesn't quite work considering Godzilla's tail doesn't have an "edged" side.

Have you missed the movies? One-on-one, Godzilla beat Kiryu almost easily. But with human intervention, Kiryu managed to pull out a victory.

When Godzilla used his blast he was able to take Kiryu out. But HTH he didn't. Kiryu just kept on throwing those punches at him.

Not neccesarily. Kiryu is one of Godzilla's own, so he isn't just going to blatenly destroy it. And besides, when Kiryu is shut down, in the animalistic sense, he is DEAD. So, why would Godzilla try to destroy a dead opponent?

Godzilla was standing several hundred yards away from Kiryu. I doubt he knew Kiryu was shut down. I also believe he would destroy Kiryu even if he could sense the bones of the 54 Godzilla. Why? He attacked it with the intentions of destroying it. It wouldn't matter. In the animal kingdom, some animals kill their own sometimes. I would strongly think the same would apply to Godzilla here.

That's about as truthful as Bill Clinton's famous claim

I dunno what you're getting at here...but whether you believe me or not is your problem. I would also like to update the fact that I am not Bill Clinton. If I were, I would not have the time to debate these topics. I would be out raising money to obtain medicine for those who have AIDS in Africa.

Hedorah can only be killed by completely being blasted away, or dried out

Exactly. As I said in MM's statement, Godzilla blasted Hedorah several times and nothing came off of Hedorah. His beam wouldn't be hot enough to dry him out either.

Goji's gonna blast through him like tissue.

You are underestimating Hedorah big time! If it weren't for human intervention, Godzilla most likely would have died...period.

It's obvious it's force is as strong or stronger than GMK Goji's beam

The strength of GMK's beam is very debatable. Depending upon who you ask. I am one of those who wasn't impressed with his beam strength.

Hedorah will be half a Hedorah after one blast. One or two more, victory for Kiryu Goji

In one or two blasts Hedorah is gone? I highly doubt that. As I said before, Godzilla blasted Hedorah several times and it didn't tear Hedorah apart.

Where the heck do you get this? It was able to push Goji back for quite a long time and gave him a hard time for him even to get if off. It's got many cannons for firing missiles, so it's gotta have a lot of mass to it. Try to back your statements next time.

Compared to Godzilla's punching power, his ability to knock something like that off shouldn't be that hard. It would be the equivalent of you knocking off a box of thin ply wood, stuffed with small dowels, and it jutting off of a person's shoulder. Believe me Mirren, it doesn't take much to knock something like that off when you can literally punch through a building with no problem. It's mass equivalent compared to Godzilla's punching power is small. That's what you are forgetting Mirren. Oh, BTW, nice try of trying to rebute the second part of my statement.

And are we forgetting that Goji completely destroyed the cannon in one blow?

Uh...no. Read my statement above Mirren.

Wow, thank you for ignoring everything I said about it

I doubt I ignored it. But seeing as how you think I did and completely didn't try to clarify your statement clearly shows me it was not a point that would aid your side of the argument.

Barely fought him? You watching the actual movie? He was going toe-to-toe with him physically, breaking him apart piece by piece, and then blasting him away

I don't call dancing around with Kiryu fighting him. And taking him apart piece by piece? Dunno what you are seeing Mirren but the only thing he took off was that one cannon. And blasting him away is an overstatement.

Here Mirren...I want you to forget everything above and focus on these issues here....

How is Godzilla going to actually DEFEAT Hedorah? You and MM seem to think he will blow pieces of Hedorah apart when it clearly shows in Godzilla Vs. Hedorah that, when Godzilla blasted him, no chunks of Hedorah came flying off. Unless you can provide evidence from that same film, then I will be willing to admit I was wrong and that Godzilla has a chance.
Not to mention this Godzilla is slower than the Showa version, he most likely won't be able to dodge some of Hedorah's attacks so easily. I get the notion that you think Godzilla will take Hedorah out in nothing flat. It is not going to be that easy. Hedorah is a walking blob of near-invincibility and Hedorah has some very nice attributes at his disposal to win this bout.

All I am asking Mirren, through this hodge podge, is a reason as to HOW Godzilla will win. If you can, I will admit I was wrong. Otherwise, I don't see Godzilla winning this bout.

MirrenDono

December 24th, 2004, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by kent
That anaolgy really doesn't quite work considering Godzilla's tail doesn't have an "edged" side.
Oh my God, kent, it had so much force that it took off only the top without moving it all too much, if you don't understand the physical force there then go re-read your science text books.

When Godzilla used his blast he was able to take Kiryu out. But HTH he didn't. Kiryu just kept on throwing those punches at him.
Yes, and of course this was after he blasted him in the face with his maser cannons. Oh yeah that's completely even

I dunno what you're getting at here...but whether you believe me or not is your problem. I would also like to update the fact that I am not Bill Clinton. If I were, I would not have the time to debate these topics. I would be out raising money to obtain medicine for those who have AIDS in Africa.

I implied your statement was false as hell, because you were underrating Kiryu Goji

Exactly. As I said in MM's statement, Godzilla blasted Hedorah several times and nothing came off of Hedorah. His beam wouldn't be hot enough to dry him out either.
Allow me to explain Showa Goji's beam strength where you could not realize

Every single Goji's beam back then was only burning, they had almost no force whatsoever, the only one is Megaro Goji's, whose is still about half burning and half blasting force. Shoshingecki Goji's beam has no push at all. We see this when he nails Ghidrah in the neck, only burning it a bit, and when he hits Gigan three times, doesn't move him at all.

You are underestimating Hedorah big time! If it weren't for human intervention, Godzilla most likely would have died...period.
No, you see, I'm not underestimating Kaiju in this fight

Bullets went through him, Goji's hand went through him. Are you ignoring the force on Kiryu Goji's beam?

And do you honestly think Shoshingecki Goji and Kiryu Goji are anywhere near equal in power? Or must I ramble on with the power level differences between the Goji's?

The strength of GMK's beam is very debatable. Depending upon who you ask. I am one of those who wasn't impressed with his beam strength.
Why I'll never understand but...

In one or two blasts Hedorah is gone? I highly doubt that. As I said before, Godzilla blasted Hedorah several times and it didn't tear Hedorah apart.
And again, Shoshingecki Goji's bema has no push at all, Kiryu Goji's beam is about 50-70% of that

Compared to Godzilla's punching power, his ability to knock something like that off shouldn't be that hard. It would be the equivalent of you knocking off a box of thin ply wood, stuffed with small dowels, and it jutting off of a person's shoulder. Believe me Mirren, it doesn't take much to knock something like that off when you can literally punch through a building with no problem. It's mass equivalent compared to Godzilla's punching power is small. That's what you are forgetting Mirren. Oh, BTW, nice try of trying to rebute the second part of my statement.
We don't see Goji punch a lot. He doesn't claw all too much, if they were uber powerful, he'd probably use it more. But since it's only pretty strong, he doesn't

Oh, and you've continued to not prove how there's 'no mass' in the shoulder cannons

I doubt I ignored it. But seeing as how you think I did and completely didn't try to clarify your statement clearly shows me it was not a point that would aid your side of the argument.
It's not, it's a testament to his power. Plus Gorjirus got more of it, so I didn't bother to go on about it

I don't call dancing around with Kiryu fighting him. And taking him apart piece by piece? Dunno what you are seeing Mirren but the only thing he took off was that one cannon. And blasting him away is an overstatement.
He was ramming him, grappling him, Kiryu basically did nothing else physically before the Herons came in, the rest of the beam he used beams or projectiles, all that failed. He took off both shoulder cannons, the zapping sword, and the auto-lasers. He took him apart piece by piece, yes. And if you're seriously going to say that by kicking him away and sending him flying with a beam is not blasting him away then you're the biggest fanboy I've seen since OPG, though I'm sure that's not the case

Here Mirren...I want you to forget everything above and focus on these issues here....

How is Godzilla going to actually DEFEAT Hedorah? You and MM seem to think he will blow pieces of Hedorah apart when it clearly shows in Godzilla Vs. Hedorah that, when Godzilla blasted him, no chunks of Hedorah came flying off. Unless you can provide evidence from that same film, then I will be willing to admit I was wrong and that Godzilla has a chance.
Not to mention this Godzilla is slower than the Showa version, he most likely won't be able to dodge some of Hedorah's attacks so easily. I get the notion that you think Godzilla will take Hedorah out in nothing flat. It is not going to be that easy. Hedorah is a walking blob of near-invincibility and Hedorah has some very nice attributes at his disposal to win this bout.

All I am asking Mirren, through this hodge podge, is a reason as to HOW Godzilla will win. If you can, I will admit I was wrong. Otherwise, I don't see Godzilla winning this bout.
Simple. Hedorah's hide is very weak, it's extremely easy to blast through, even bullets can. He cannot regenerate outside of water, and this fight is on pure land. Goji's beam has tremedous force to it, which will blow through Hedorah. He likes to use it a bit, and can keep it firing for a while when he pleases.

Victory- Kiryu Goji

kent

December 24th, 2004, 11:36 PM

I would continue on but I am tired as hell. All I can say Mirren is that you are taking this way too seriously and need to take a chill pill.
BTW, your statements about the fanboy thing, even though you think it's not the case are very insulting and I am not too happy about it. Plus don't you think it's immature to call a fellow fan a fanboy? Not only does it show you are losing composure but it also shows that you are unhappy about what some of my statements have done in rebutting your side. Saying that I underestimated Godzilla is completely false because I take a look at what Showa did to him and compare to what this Godzilla could do, this Godzilla isn't going to gain much ground compared to Showa. Also saying my statements are "false as hell" didn't boat well either. Good job of being mature Mirren. I end this post being completely insulted and not being respected. While you may think I am dumb as rocks, I will still wish you a Merry Christmas and a safe holiday season.

The Great MM

December 25th, 2004, 04:40 PM

Well, Mirren thanks for keeping my arguements up while I was gone, exactly what I was about to say ;)

MirrenDono

December 25th, 2004, 08:16 PM

kent, you wanna know why I acted the way I did?

1. You had ignored several statements
2. You were making some of the lamest comments ever
3. You didn't even seem to be trying

I hate it when a person just does one of those, but to possibly commit all three is something I cannot accept, especially when we're in a rather interesting debate

Gorjirus

December 26th, 2004, 04:25 PM

Well, since it seems Kent dropped out, I won't go as in depth as usual, but I will say this:

Did you ever realize though that his beam may not be hot?

If it is not hot, than it must be kinetic force and explosive pwer, as it instantly destroyed those tanks. Kinetic Force and radiation won't cause that.

kent

December 26th, 2004, 10:20 PM

The Great MM

December 26th, 2004, 10:28 PM

WOAH WOAH WOAH! Calm down, and not just Kent. Its only a debate meant for fun, if your tired of it, just don't respond.

MirrenDono

December 26th, 2004, 10:48 PM

Uhh...was that even needed MM? o_o;;

kent, try to find one comment of mine that wasn't backed up pointless info, wasn't pulled outta my ***, was fanboyish, or off a comment that I ignored

I was harsh for a reason. You were acting stupid, and I didn't like that, you're not like that. I've been around here for almost a year, and you've been with me the majority of them. I was extremely dissappointed to see how you 'argued' in here, and I was hoping I could knock some sense into ya

kent

December 26th, 2004, 11:00 PM

Knocking sense into me? I wasn't the one who thought a Godzilla could take out Hedorah! I know I have been with you the majority of the time here, but there isn't much to say about your poor pick in Godzilla winning this bout when he won't be able to gain much ground than what Showa could do. It just baffles me.

MirrenDono

December 26th, 2004, 11:10 PM

*sighs* kent, I'm giving up on you. You just proved to me how much you can ignore of all the logical arguments we've stated. Good job

kent

December 26th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Whatever Mirren. The hard facts are in Godzilla Vs. Hedorah. There's your proof. I just don't see how you could be so blind to something like that and coming up with a ridiculous statement saying that he will blow pieces of Hedorah off when you have never been able to provide evidence to suggest it could happen. The film practically throws your logic out the window but whatever.
I know this has put some bad blood between us; but no hard feelings.

Tomzilla

December 27th, 2004, 03:23 AM

If the opposing side/member you are disagreeing with didn't understand your argument, no matter how frustrating it is, don't take an immature approach and scorn their intelligence.

Mirren and Kent, obviously you two didn't agree. As far as I'm concerned, what could've ended up as an interesting argument turned into a shouting match of where the victor is determined by how many times they would accuse the other person of being stupid, ignorant, unable to back up their evidence, etc...

Obviously, you failed at convincing either one of each other. That doesn't mean you've lost. But in my eyes, you both lost the moment you took this a step further then it should've been. If the other side insults you, do the most simplest and brightest thing: don't reply, you'll only feed the fire.

MirrenDono

December 27th, 2004, 09:10 AM

Seer235

December 27th, 2004, 10:44 AM

Well, I haven't seen most of Godzilla vs. Hedorah (I will get it soon, yay), but I'd like to mention one thing. Mirren, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you use the statement "bullets and tank shells go straight through Hedorah" as a supporting statement showing that Hedorah will lose? Because that actually supports Hedorah here. It explains that Hedorah doesn't have any bones or other structures like that (besides the brain), so a large kinetic force won't harm him, but just go through his sludgy mass and do no damage. So, wouldn't Godzilla's beam plow straight through Hedorah, but aside from that, do no damage at all? Since I have yet to see the movie, I have a few questions to ask. At any time in the movie (aside from when Godzilla was swinging Hedorah around), were hunks of Hedorah knocked off by anything, specifically with a large kinetic force? And if so, coudl those peices move back into Hedorah's main mass? Because if the answer to the last question is yes, then I don't see how Godzilla could kill Hedorah with a barrage of beams.

Remember, I haven't seen the movie, so I could be wrong about this.

MirrenDono

December 27th, 2004, 11:59 AM

No, trust me it's a bad thing. If he's that easy to break apart, than a beam like Kiryu Goji's that has unbelievable force will tear him apart, and he won't be able to regenerate because he's not gonna be by water. Which mean, whatever he loses, is pretty much gone. And since Kiryu Goji likes ot use his very nasty beam a good deal, Hedorah will be blown away in only a few minutes I'd guess

kent

December 27th, 2004, 03:15 PM

kent, I do apologize for the harshness, but, if you'd like to try and start this over, please re-read all of the pro-Kiryu Goji posts and just check out the very reasonable arguments we've posted, because by it seems by your most recent post you're still ignoring them, but I'm not sure, and this is exactly what got me mad, in Tom hadn't posted that now I'd probably be going nuts again.

If you actually reply to our points, and attempt to prove them wrong as we have with yours, this argument can continue, and I won't pull another stunt like that before. But you haven't, you've mostly only said "It's all in Godzilla vs. Hedorah!" or "There's no increase in power between Showa and Kiryu Goji!" That's not how you debate
I apologize as well for the shouting match. I would like to continue the debate as well. I don't have time right now considering I have to be at work here very soon, but when I get home tonight, I will try to take a look at Godzilla vs. Hedorah and some, if not all of, GMG and try to get to GMMG as well if I don't work too late. I will be taking notes on all three movies and I suggest you do the same; because I will come more prepared. ;)

kent

December 28th, 2004, 03:09 PM

Instead of going back and replying to every post, I am going to start anew here...

Here are the reasons why Hedorah would win:

The majority of Hedorah's genetic makeup is made out of a crystallized carbon. Anyone who has taken Chemistry will know that carbon, let alone crystal, has a very tightly knit bond that is EXTREMELY difficult to break apart. I know of no modern day device that could seperate crystal molecules. The film even pointed out that Hedorah does not have a nervous system. With this crystallized makeup, it would be almost impossible for Godzilla to blast him to bits (which I will address that here in my next point). After watching GMG, Godzilla's ray is made of pure radiation and has a powerful push to it. But I have a question mark over it simply because we cannot measure it when compared to Showa G's ray. Although I have a hunch it does have more push than it. But with Hedorah having most of his body made up in crystallized carbon molecules, I believe it would be hard for Godzilla to rip it apart. Unless he swung Hedorah around like Godzilla did in the film and all the momentum would force the molecules apart.

Now for the ripping apart point. You mentioned earlier that Godzilla's ray would rip parts of Hedorah off and that's how he would defeat Hedorah. After watching the film, I find this to be highly unprobable and here's why...
When Godzilla spun Hedorah around, in their first battle, several chunks of Hedorah flew off. One thing, Hedorah did not lose mass because of this. He was still the same size (even after he missed Godzilla completely by trying to ram him and a good amount of sludge was released. He didn't lose mass after that either nor did any of those chunks of Hedorah dry out. Also, the chunks were shown to move on their own. Of course they didn't at the end of the film where Godzilla was taking apart Hedorah after Hedorah dried out. But, remember, it took millions of tiny tadpole Hedorahs to make Hedorah that size. These tadpoles could be controlling those chunks of sludge once they break off of Hedorah. It is also very possible that they could rejoin Hedorah, not that it would matter since he didn't lose mass or size after losing those chunks. Also to back up my point, Hedorah shoots sludge balls at Godzilla. When Hedorah did this, and he did it quite a few times, he didn't lose mass or size either. Also, bullets went through Hedorah but Godzilla's ray didn't. Now I know I just said that I believe Kiryu-Goji's ray has more force behind it than Showa's, but let me explain. Bullets having an aerodynamic design to them. With such a design, it is easier for them to penetrate and to go through objects. Godzilla's ray has a blunt end to it. A blunt end is not able to penetrate such objects as easily. If you took a knife to mud, that knife would have no problem going through the mud. Now take a solid poll of some sort and do the same thing, it is harder to penetrate the surface of the mud with the poll than it was the knife. At the same time, it most likely won't make it as far into the mud as what the knife did. But even if Godzilla's ray were to blast some chunks off of Hedorah, he wouldn't lose size or mass. As I stated earlier, though, with Hedorah's crystallized carbon makeup, I would find it extremely hard for the ray to go through Hedorah.

What about Kiryu-Goji's Ray you ask? While it made up of pure radiation, it won't have much of an effect on Hedorah and here's why...
In their first battle, Godzilla shot his ray at Hedorah. Sparks went flying but it didn't even seem to phase Hedorah. But the next day, the scientist was able to find some dry pieces of Hedorah from when Godzilla blasted him; but not much. Hedorah, as explained in the film, is an organism not of this planet. Therefore, it has been exposed to some radiation and nuclear activity from blown up stars, planets, etc. The film as explains that Hedorah uses nuclear fission to help it fly and they were also concerned as to how powerful he would get considering the fact he does use nuclear power of sorts. So it would be highly likely Godzilla's ray would have little to no effect on Hedorah considering Hedorah does posses at least some nuclear material to offset the effects of Godzilla's ray. It would also not be enough to dry out Hedorah either. If you observe the electrical meter of the electrodes during the final battle, it took about 400 kilo volts to dry out Hedorah. And, if I did the calc right, that is 64 MILLION volts of electricity! That is hot! Even during the first drying out stage of that battle, Hedorah was still alive! Only in a smaller form. We can conclude that the only way Hedorah loses mass and size in when he is dried out. But even 64 million volts couldn't completely dry him out because Hedorah is made up of all that muck. While his ray was impressive in blowing up one of the tanks, it took about five seconds for it to happen and, as I already stated, doubt it will have little to no effect on Hedorah. Showa Godzilla's ray wasn't that hot nor do I believe Kiryu-Goji's is as well considering it would have literally melted away Kiryu's armor, it didn't.

As shown in the film, Hedorah's eye laser is painful to Godzilla. Earlier I explained that Hedorah posseses some nuclear matter and that they were concerned how powerful he would get as he grew; that was during his third stage. He obtained the eye laser in his fourth stage when he had grown and become more powerful. We can conclude that his eye laser came about as a result of, not only him growing, but also the fact that his nuclear capabilities increased as well. I am very positive that his eye laser mostly consists of nuclear material. During their final encounter, Hedorah used his laser eye several times on the ground as well. When he did, huge explosions would follow; signifying the power of his eye laser. There is no doubt in my mind that the eye laser will indeed do pain to Godzilla. To back that point up, during Godzilla's first raid on Japan at the beginning of GMG, he was shot around the chest area with the maser cannon and expressed pain. A driver in one of the masers said that the rain had decreased the maser's power by 70%. If Godzilla was in pain after only receiving 30% of the maser's power, Hedorah's eye laser will definitely wreak some havoc on him.

Hedorah's sulfuric mist is also much more powerful than I had previously thought. In his flying form, which he used quite a bit in the film, Hedorah spews a poisonous sulfuric mist that affects the eyes and throat. Godzilla was affected by this mist obviously. But also, if enough of the mist gets into a certain area, that mist hangs around. In the film, one of the reporters said that rescue operations had been canceled for the time being due to the mist still lingering around the area. If Hedorah uses this mist for just enough time, Godzilla will be choking on sulfuric mist and he will not be able to escape it. Hedorah will also be able to pick up Godzilla in his flying form.

Hedorah's sludge balls will also hurt Godzilla. Hedorah was obviously no dumby when he aimed at Godzilla's right eye (somehow it ended up on G's left eye). Hedorah shows some sign og intelligence by doing such a thing. Also, Hedorah, in his fourth form, lept over Godzilla and dumped some sludge balls on Godzilla that created major pain for him. Not much else can be said on this.

Neither of the two kaiju are great HTH combatants. Both are grapplers and really nothing more. But Hedorah is more agile than Kiryu-Goji and will be able to pull off more moves on Kiryu-Goji. Not only that, Kiryu-Goji will not have an affect on Hedorah when he uses HTH combat (unless he completely blinds Hedorah but I don't think his reach is as long as Showa's). Most of the time though, Godzilla's hands went right through Hedorah with no effect. There was even one point where Godzilla's right hand was skeletonized by the sludge. This can easily be seen shortly after Godzilla blasts the first electrode.

I think I will conclude there for now and see what you think.

MirrenDono

January 2nd, 2005, 03:55 PM

I've read it, and again you've either ignored or fogotten about all the points we made clear

Hedorah cannot regenerate outside of water, so he won't be here. Bullets and Goji's hand break through him with ease, his hide is weak. Kiryu Goji loves to use his beam, which is hot enough to set the Tokyo Tower and Mothra completely on fire in one hit. It also has more force than we can imagine. It sends Kiryu V.1 one flying backwards after one hit, and even while Kiryu V.2 is falling, it hits him in the face and causes him to go flying again. If bullets and hands can go through Kiryu, this beam is gonna tear him apart. Goji likes to use this beam a lot, and he's been shown to be able to keep it going for a few seconds. Whatever Hedorah loses he will not get back. Goji's gonna just blast him, and blast him, and blast him until he's nothing, or cannot fight back. Hedorah can't figth without an upper body, and that's whats exactly going to happen due to his weak hide, the insane force of Kiryu Goji's beam, Hedorah's lack of regeneration from outside of water, and how much Kiryu Goji likes to use his beam.

And really, the only attack that'll affect Goji probably is the gases, but that's nothing near what it needed to put him down. The sludge and beam hurt/burned Shoshingecki Goji yes, but Kiryu Goji's fortitude is ten times that, and his hide is easily ten times the strength of any Showa Godzilla. You're trying to compare two Godzilla's that are completely different, in fighting styles, beam power, and overall might. The gap between Shoshingecki Goji and Kiryu Goji is massive, with Shoshingecki Goji being the far weaker, and Kiryu Goji being the far stronger. You're still forgetting that, Hedorah has nothing that can win him the fight, and Kiryu Goji has everything that can.

kent

January 2nd, 2005, 06:53 PM

Hedorah cannot regenerate outside of water, so he won't be here.
It could be quite possible that it could considering some parts of him that broke off were able to move. Where they went is a mystery but the movie of course doesn't show such a thing to back that idea up. But I am not completely ruling it out that it can happen.

Bullets and Goji's hand break through him with ease, his hide is weak.
Besides the punch Godzilla gave next to Hedorah's eye, did the bullets and other physical attacks hurt him? No. In fact, as stated in that post, on incident where Godzilla punched Hedorah, he hand skeletonized, showing his hide is dangerous if touched.

Kiryu Goji loves to use his beam, which is hot enough to set the Tokyo Tower and Mothra completely on fire in one hit.
One thing Mirren, early on in the debate, you admitted yourself it wasn't hot enough to dry out Hedorah. Not only that, in my previous post, I clearly stated it took about 400 kilo volts to dry him out. Even in the first drying out, Hedorah wasn't completely defeated. Not to mention most of his body is made up of a crystallized carbon; which, if you've taken chemistry, any form of carbon, including crystals which are very tightly packed carbon molecules, are EXTREMELY difficult to break apart.
Why Mothra blew up of course but her body is somewhat frail. It wouldn't be as effective against Hedorah because Mothra's body couldn't take such heat. As with Tokyo Tower, Godzilla hit it right in the viewing area where troops were stationed in earlier. Gas lines and perhaps military supplies were left behind, aiding to the destrouction of Tokyo Tower.

It also has more force than we can imagine. It sends Kiryu V.1 one flying backwards after one hit, and even while Kiryu V.2 is falling, it hits him in the face and causes him to go flying again. If bullets and hands can go through Kiryu, this beam is gonna tear him apart.
As mentioned, Hedorah's makeup is a crystallized carbon. You make no mention of it here in your post which leads me to believe you are ignoring this fact. It is going to be extremely difficult to rip him apart. And I also stated in my post that Hedorah never loss any mass nor height when he used his sludge (which is a part of him) or when Godzilla twirled him around in their first battle. If such things were to make him lose mass and height, Hedorah would not have used such attacks. If you can prove somewhere in the film that he does lose mass and height, then please provide it. But from viewing the film, he did not lose either; and combine that with his crsytalized carbon makeup, I don't see such a thing happening with this Godzilla.

Goji likes to use this beam a lot, and he's been shown to be able to keep it going for a few seconds. Whatever Hedorah loses he will not get back. Goji's gonna just blast him, and blast him, and blast him until he's nothing, or cannot fight back.
This Goji is not as beam happy as you make it seem to be. But it really doesn't matter as I have proven to you that his beam isn't going to tear him apart; even if it has the ability to do so, Hedorah isn't going to lose mass. I also stated with the bullet scenario, which looking at your post you also ignored, bullets have an aerodynamic design to them which makes it easier to penetrate objects. Godzilla's ray starts blunt making it not so easy to penetrate. But like I said, even if it doesn, it won't affect Hedorah much at all.

Hedorah can't figth without an upper body, and that's whats exactly going to happen due to his weak hide,
His hide is made out of sludge. What would you expect to happen to his body when Godzilla punches it? And his hide is by no means weak Mirren. I proved to you, not only earlier in this post, but in my previous post that he took 400 kilo volts of electricity! Even after the first electrocution he got, he still wasn't dead! That goes to prove his hide is by no means weak. And, I hate to keep repeating myself, but you obviously aren't getting the point, his crystallized Carbon structure.
All you have been doing is stating that Godzilla will blast through his hide without providing me any evidence that Hedorah will lose height and mass when fired upon (even though I have shown you he doesn't), nor that he will be blasted apart due to his makeup which you haven't even mentioned in your post.

the insane force of Kiryu Goji's beam, Hedorah's lack of regeneration from outside of water, and how much Kiryu Goji likes to use his beam.

Hedorah doesn't need regen as I have proven to you he doesn't lose mass or height when he loses sludge nor will his tough crystallized carbon makeup will he need to regen. Not to mention 400 kilo volts didn't even blast off parts of his body. And the force of Goji's beam won't matter due to the carbon makeup.

And really, the only attack that'll affect Goji probably is the gases,
And those gases will take more and more of a toll on him the more they fight in one particular area. Lemme show you again from my previous post how powerful this stuff is...

But also, if enough of the mist gets into a certain area, that mist hangs around. In the film, one of the reporters said that rescue operations had been canceled for the time being due to the mist still lingering around the area. If Hedorah uses this mist for just enough time, Godzilla will be choking on sulfuric mist and he will not be able to escape it.

It's deadly stuff Mirren that could kill Godzilla. If too much of it is released in a certain area.

The sludge and beam hurt/burned Shoshingecki Goji yes,
With these kaiju being the same size, you don't think the beam and sludge won't do much to this Godzilla? The Sludge will stick to Godzilla and burn him like it did in the film. And as I have shown in my previous post, the beam most likely has nuclear attributes. That, no doubt, will also hurt Godzilla.

but Kiryu Goji's fortitude is ten times that
Fortitude won't matter when it comes to the dangerous attacks of Hedorah's.

and his hide is easily ten times the strength of any Showa Godzilla.
It won't matter Mirren. He will still be able to feel pain and if he punches Hedorah, there is still a very good chance it will greatly eat away at his hands. These attacks will do the same amount of damage to him as they did Showa Godzilla. This particular Goji also showed pain when Kiryu used his maser attacks on him.

You're trying to compare two Godzilla's that are completely different, in fighting styles, beam power, and overall might.
Yes I am, but guess what? These two are around the same height so everything will still be in Hedorah's favor the way they were when he fought Showa Godzilla. And it won't matter because the biggest key here in this battle is Hedorah's makeup which is going to be EXTREMELY tough to break apart. Like I said earlier, I know of no modern technique that can take apart such molecules. Showa Godzilla won due to human intervention and this Godzilla will only win due to human intervention as well. Considering the rules don't say anything on human intervention, this Godzilla is stuck in the same nightmare Showa Godzilla was stuck in.

The gap between Shoshingecki Goji and Kiryu Goji is massive, with Shoshingecki Goji being the far weaker, and Kiryu Goji being the far stronger.
With Showa's hand being skeletonized, he didn't walk away from the battle unlike Kiryu-Goji who had a big gash in his chest and retreated.
To back your statement up here, it would be nice if you provided evidence.

You're still forgetting that, Hedorah has nothing that can win him the fight, and Kiryu Goji has everything that can.

I'm sorry Mirren but that is the most ridiculous statement you have made yet. I have given you gobs of proof that Hedorah has more than everything to he needs to win this match and why, just Hedorah's hide alone, guarantees a loss for this Godzilla.
I suggest you read my previous post again and read it very carefully for it contains more than enough info. to show Hedorah will win this battle.

MirrenDono

January 2nd, 2005, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by kent
It could be quite possible that it could considering some parts of him that broke off were able to move. Where they went is a mystery but the movie of course doesn't show such a thing to back that idea up. But I am not completely ruling it out that it can happen.
Moving's not a matter, what is, is the regenerating of them becoming part of him again. If they don't do that, it's not a notable factor for the fight

Besides the punch Godzilla gave next to Hedorah's eye, did the bullets and other physical attacks hurt him? No. In fact, as stated in that post, on incident where Godzilla punched Hedorah, he hand skeletonized, showing his hide is dangerous if touched.
It's not a matter of hurting him, it's a matter of Goji's beam blowing him away

And his hide isn't what burns you, it's the sludge that pours out when you break it

One thing Mirren, early on in the debate, you admitted yourself it wasn't hot enough to dry out Hedorah. Not only that, in my previous post, I clearly stated it took about 400 kilo volts to dry him out. Even in the first drying out, Hedorah wasn't completely defeated. Not to mention most of his body is made up of a crystallized carbon; which, if you've taken chemistry, any form of carbon, including crystals which are very tightly packed carbon molecules, are EXTREMELY difficult to break apart.
Why Mothra blew up of course but her body is somewhat frail. It wouldn't be as effective against Hedorah because Mothra's body couldn't take such heat. As with Tokyo Tower, Godzilla hit it right in the viewing area where troops were stationed in earlier. Gas lines and perhaps military supplies were left behind, aiding to the destrouction of Tokyo Tower.
There's no realy proof that Mothra is 'fragile'. Kiryu Goji ripped one of her legs off, hurled her into a building, and she came right back at him

Plus I know the heat isn't gonna do anything, I just said that for fun ;)

As mentioned, Hedorah's makeup is a crystallized carbon. You make no mention of it here in your post which leads me to believe you are ignoring this fact. It is going to be extremely difficult to rip him apart. And I also stated in my post that Hedorah never loss any mass nor height when he used his sludge (which is a part of him) or when Godzilla twirled him around in their first battle. If such things were to make him lose mass and height, Hedorah would not have used such attacks. If you can prove somewhere in the film that he does lose mass and height, then please provide it. But from viewing the film, he did not lose either; and combine that with his crsytalized carbon makeup, I don't see such a thing happening with this Godzilla.
You're right in one sense, but not for the fight. Hedorah never lost any chunks of him that great, with Kiryu Goji's beam he will

I don't see what you don't understand. He's made up of crystallized carbon yes, but bullets and Goji's hadn easily break through him. A beam of such force like Kiryu Goji's is gonna rip through him

This Goji is not as beam happy as you make it seem to be. But it really doesn't matter as I have proven to you that his beam isn't going to tear him apart; even if it has the ability to do so, Hedorah isn't going to lose mass. I also stated with the bullet scenario, which looking at your post you also ignored, bullets have an aerodynamic design to them which makes it easier to penetrate objects. Godzilla's ray starts blunt making it not so easy to penetrate. But like I said, even if it doesn, it won't affect Hedorah much at all.
Oh of course he's not 'beam happy' like Heisi Goji, but the majority of the time he opts to use his beam

And are you kidding me? Kiryu Goji's beam has push beyond imagination, it's faaaaar rougher than a bullet.

His hide is made out of sludge. What would you expect to happen to his body when Godzilla punches it? And his hide is by no means weak Mirren. I proved to you, not only earlier in this post, but in my previous post that he took 400 kilo volts of electricity! Even after the first electrocution he got, he still wasn't dead! That goes to prove his hide is by no means weak. And, I hate to keep repeating myself, but you obviously aren't getting the point, his crystallized Carbon structure.
All you have been doing is stating that Godzilla will blast through his hide without providing me any evidence that Hedorah will lose height and mass when fired upon (even though I have shown you he doesn't), nor that he will be blasted apart due to his makeup which you haven't even mentioned in your post
Went through this....

Hedorah doesn't need regen as I have proven to you he doesn't lose mass or height when he loses sludge nor will his tough crystallized carbon makeup will he need to regen. Not to mention 400 kilo volts didn't even blast off parts of his body. And the force of Goji's beam won't matter due to the carbon makeup.
Same thing...

And those gases will take more and more of a toll on him the more they fight in one particular area. Lemme show you again from my previous post how powerful this stuff is...

But also, if enough of the mist gets into a certain area, that mist hangs around. In the film, one of the reporters said that rescue operations had been canceled for the time being due to the mist still lingering around the area. If Hedorah uses this mist for just enough time, Godzilla will be choking on sulfuric mist and he will not be able to escape it.

It's deadly stuff Mirren that could kill Godzilla. If too much of it is released in a certain area.
...and it didn't kill Goji why...?

With these kaiju being the same size, you don't think the beam and sludge won't do much to this Godzilla? The Sludge will stick to Godzilla and burn him like it did in the film. And as I have shown in my previous post, the beam most likely has nuclear attributes. That, no doubt, will also hurt Godzilla. [/quote[

Do I really need to explain how tough Kiryu Goji's hide and fortitude are?

[quote]
Fortitude won't matter when it comes to the dangerous attacks of Hedorah's.
Kiryu Goji took very dangerous attacks and fought on like they were nothing. And just read my other statement above so I'm not redundant

Yes I am, but guess what? These two are around the same height so everything will still be in Hedorah's favor the way they were when he fought Showa Godzilla. And it won't matter because the biggest key here in this battle is Hedorah's makeup which is going to be EXTREMELY tough to break apart. Like I said earlier, I know of no modern technique that can take apart such molecules. Showa Godzilla won due to human intervention and this Godzilla will only win due to human intervention as well. Considering the rules don't say anything on human intervention, this Godzilla is stuck in the same nightmare Showa Godzilla was stuck in.
Size won't make Kiryu Goji any weaker, since he's almost the same size as Showa Goji. And his hide isn't hard to break, you're saying things that've been debunked over and over

With Showa's hand being skeletonized, he didn't walk away from the battle unlike Kiryu-Goji who had a big gash in his chest and retreated.
To back your statement up here, it would be nice if you provided evidence.
Did you even notice how big that gash was? No other Godzilla ever suffered a wound without dying that bad. That thing blasted open his entire sternum, it's on a Gamera level of damage. Judging on here it hit, it could've messed up his lungs, and greatly hurt his breathing. Only Gamera has even suffered a chest-wound that terrible, and Heisi Gammy is much stronger than Kiryu Goji. It was obviously even worse than suspected too, seeing as how every other attack basically failed to keep Goji down. Even when he was thrown and landed on his head he was quickly back up.

And on your last comment, do you seriously want me to explain how strong Kiryu Goji is? Even worse, Pyras show you?

I'm sorry Mirren but that is the most ridiculous statement you have made yet. I have given you gobs of proof that Hedorah has more than everything to he needs to win this match and why, just Hedorah's hide alone, guarantees a loss for this Godzilla.
I suggest you read my previous post again and read it very carefully for it contains more than enough info. to show Hedorah will win this battle.
Try arguments that don't ignore others, haven't been debunked, aren't easy to debunk, and ones that are logical and maybe you'd be correct.

Seer235

January 2nd, 2005, 09:25 PM

MirrenDono

January 2nd, 2005, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Seer235
I'd like to mention something. Somebody mentioned a quote in this topic earlier. "Bullets go straight through Hedorah." I'd like to complete it, since I have finally seen the movie. The quote is "Bullets go straight through Hedorah, with no effect." This proves what I have suspected, that kinetic damage is pretty much useless against Hedorah, considering the kinetic force will go through Hedorah, and have no damage or effect at all on Hedorah's body.
Kiryu Goji's beam is far wider and stronger mind you

I'd also like to note something about the wound GXMG Godzilla recieved. It was wide, yes, but very shallow. No bone was visible anywhere, showing that it neither reached the bone nor went past it. It just got to the muscular tissues in front of the ribs. Hedorah's inner sludge ate right down to the bone and through the muscle, as you can see with Godzilla's hand.
Shallow yes, but extremley nasty. Only Gamera has suffered a wound that terrible, and he's fought on with it, but he's much stronger than Kiryu Goji. And remember as I said, it could've frigged up his breathing big time, and it must've been incredibly painful seeing as how nothing else put him down ever

And also remember that Kiryu Goji's hide strength is faaar superior to Shoshingecki Goji's, as well as his fortitude, the attacks will have a much lesser effect.

And don't forget about Hedorah's deam aim with his sludge balls. He was able to hit a target a bit smaller than a human with that, first try (for anyone who does not know what I was talking about, it was the flame holder near the end). He was also able to nail Godzilla in the eye, rendering that eye useless for the rest of the battle, I believe.
Kiryu Goji is nailed directly in the eye with a maser, and both from backwash of Kiryu mouth-maser cannon, his eyes were fine. He can take easily quadruple the punishment of the majority of Godzillas.

The Great MM

January 2nd, 2005, 10:56 PM

I'd like to mention something. Somebody mentioned a quote in this topic earlier. "Bullets go straight through Hedorah." I'd like to complete it, since I have finally seen the movie. The quote is "Bullets go straight through Hedorah, with no effect." This proves what I have suspected, that kinetic damage is pretty much useless against Hedorah, considering the kinetic force will go through Hedorah, and have no damage or effect at all on Hedorah's body.

Cause bullets wouldn't, there WAY to small to cause any visible effect, but magnify a bullet to about 50 feet and fire it at him, the bullet is gonna blast anything in its way out the other side. This is EXACTLY what GXMG's beam is gonna do, hell, if he gets a head shot in, Hedorah is dead, because from that OFFICIAL bio pic in Toho Kingdom...

HEDORAH HAS BRAINS AND ORGANS

I'd also like to note something about the wound GXMG Godzilla recieved. It was wide, yes, but very shallow. No bone was visible anywhere, showing that it neither reached the bone nor went past it. It just got to the muscular tissues in front of the ribs. Hedorah's inner sludge ate right down to the bone and through the muscle, as you can see with Godzilla's hand.

May not have been deep, but its gonna hurt like hell. Its bassicly playing the same result like bullet proof armor. It will protect you from some of the blasts, but police speakers who had ACTUALLY been shot while wearing armor already said that it feels like a sludge hammer. This not only proves the AZC has extreme temperatures, but from how deep the wound is, also shows it packs one hell of a punch.

And don't forget about Hedorah's deam aim with his sludge balls. He was able to hit a target a bit smaller than a human with that, first try (for anyone who does not know what I was talking about, it was the flame holder near the end). He was also able to nail Godzilla in the eye, rendering that eye useless for the rest of the battle, I believe.

Depends if GXMG just opens up with his beam.

There is also Hedorah's eye beam, which succeeded in toppling Godzilla almost everytime it hit him, if not all the time. And this was just one of them.

Will the beam even do anything? As Mirren said, this Godzilla is nearly ten times Showa Goji. His hide, while strong (it withstood the AZC, even if underwater), the corrosive effects of it won't even matter, same with the sludge. The only real weakness I can see on GXMG's body is his eye, and he always opens up with his beam in battle, if he sees this is blowing Hedorah down, then he ain't gonna stop, let alone let have Hedorah fight back.

Oh, by the way Kent, ONLY FLYING FORM HEDORAH MAKES THE GAS. That takes a few seconds to transform...and thats perfect time to blow him to hell with the beam.

kent

January 2nd, 2005, 11:05 PM

Oh, by the way Kent, ONLY FLYING FORM HEDORAH MAKES THE GAS. That takes a few seconds to transform...and thats perfect time to blow him to hell with the beam. :nonono2: You obviously didn't read my long post did you MM? I stated that in that post, which I suggest you read and read it carefully along with Mirren. I am not going to bother with the other part of your post because all the answers lie in that post; which you and Mirren are obviously ignoring. As I told Mirren in my most recent post, it has everything that points to a Hedorah win and a Godzilla loss. And yes, it states that there is no way Godzilla could blow Hedorah to bits.
Also, next time read the rest of the posts before jumping to conclusions like this. :sly:

The Great MM

January 2nd, 2005, 11:16 PM

:nonono2: You obviously didn't read my long post did you MM? I stated that in that post, which I suggest you read and read it carefully along with Mirren. I am not going to bother with the other part of your post because all the answers lie in that post; which you and Mirren are obviously ignoring. As I told Mirren in my most recent post, it has everything that points to a Hedorah win and a Godzilla loss. And yes, it states that there is no way Godzilla could blow Hedorah to bits.
Also, next time read the rest of the posts before jumping to conclusions like this. :sly:

Ok Kent, look at this. Just don't gap at the colors, LOOK AND STUDY IT.

http://www.tohokingdom.com/web_pages/articles/images/hedorah_cutaway.htm

See that thing at the top, it's a little thing called a brain. And if a simple punch WENT THROUGH HEDORAH'S hide, then a beam that can cause a massive robot to fly back for nearly 100 yards is gonna plow strait through his entire body. The punch alone shows that his hide is not what your making it seem.

Duh Showa Godzilla's beam won't go through, it has little to no force behind it and just heat, but its not the heat of the beam that will blast it. STOP IGNORING WHAT OTHERS SAY FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!!!!

You stated the beam won't brake his hide because it's carbon crystal, but sorry, Showa Godzilla's punch went strait through, GXMG's beam is gonne blast him to pieces, piece by piece. And if Godzilla takes out Hedorah's brain...this is OVER.

kent

January 2nd, 2005, 11:47 PM

Ok Kent, look at this. Just don't gap at the colors, LOOK AND STUDY IT.

http://www.tohokingdom.com/web_pages/articles/images/hedorah_cutaway.htm

See that thing at the top, it's a little thing called a brain. And if a simple punch WENT THROUGH HEDORAH'S hide, then a beam that can cause a massive robot to fly back for nearly 100 yards is gonna plow strait through his entire body. The punch alone shows that his hide is not what your making it seem.

Duh Showa Godzilla's beam won't go through, it has little to no force behind it and just heat, but its not the heat of the beam that will blast it. STOP IGNORING WHAT OTHERS SAY FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!!!!

You stated the beam won't brake his hide because it's carbon crystal, but sorry, Showa Godzilla's punch went strait through, GXMG's beam is gonne blast him to pieces, piece by piece. And if Godzilla takes out Hedorah's brain...this is OVER.

Duh dude! I am not ignoring what other people have to say. He is made out of sludge which physical attacks will go straight through him! But look at what Showa G's ray did to him in their first battle! Hedorah sparked and crusted a tiny amount. His ray didn't go through him! And yes it is a different G ray, but you know what? Not even 400 kilo watts of electricity could rip parts of him off! Not to mention he wasn't even dead the first time.

Also, here's an analogy that may help you considering you are obviously IGNORING EVERYTHING I HAVE STATED IN MY LAST TWO POSTS:

Take a chunk of mud. You can punch through it correct? Now take a blow torch and turn on the pressure as high as it can go. It doesn't go through the mud correct? Now imagine that mud is Hedorah, only with a more complexed makeup that nothing in energy form can break it apart! Not even the 400 kilo watts of electricity could do it!

And the part about taking out Hedorah's brain, like you said, it's an if. A big if considering the Godzilla that fought Hedorah in his film is considered to be one of the more intelligent Godzilla's around while this one is around the middle of the pack if not lower on the pyramid. Not to mention Showa Godzilla punch right through some of those areas where organs are shown and guess what? It did NOTHING to him! It's not just the brain, it's other organs. You cannot live without some of your organs. And Showa Godzilla punched right into some of those spots and Hedorah just looked at Godzilla and kept fighting. If one of the smartest Godzilla's couldn't figure out to take out his brain, what makes you think a Godzilla that is not as smart as him could do it?

I'm not the one ignoring anything MM. I have replied to every single post and every bit of every single post. You just seem to completely ignore everything that I have stated which comes directly out of the movie; not to mention you HAVE NOT even contested anything else from that post of mine with the exception of the Hedorah's gas thing which you overlooked! And if you've ever taken chemistry, you will know carbon, any form infact, is EXTREMELY difficult to take apart the molecules. And if that's not even enough to convince you, I am just wasting my time.

ghidorahsaurus

January 3rd, 2005, 08:47 AM

[sheepishly looks around - tip-toes on egg shells, attempting not to stir the hornets]

Both sides have brought up excellent points. :thumbs: I am not sure who to vote for at the moment. Here are a few opinions/thoughts/questions:

- Hedorah was spun around by Godzilla and lost some sludge, Hedorah expelled a ton of his own sludge in an attempt to "drown" Godzilla, Hedorah "spit" pieces of sludge on Godzilla (in his eye, in his eye!) - and yet Hedorah kept his same mass and size. It does seem plausible GxMG Godzilla's radioactive fire has the force and push to drive right through the smog monster. The question is: will the loss of sludge really slow down Hedorah? He seemed to be fighting just fine while losing sludge in his movie.

- Hedorah's corrosive effects are sometimes overrated and sometimes underrated. I feel the corrosiveness itself is overlooked - it burned Godzilla's hand *down to the bone!* It took out his eye! Yet, simply touching Hedorah does not do this. It did not happen until Godzilla broke the "skin" or Hedorah fired a sludge glob.

- Hedorah's crimson beam seems to be packing powerful stuff. It floored Godzilla almost every time (or every time). The gases from the beam seemed as powerful or more powerful than Hedorah's gases while in flying form - beam shots that landed near Godzilla had quite the effect.

- As Pyras and others pointed out, GxMG Godzilla's atomic spew is extremely radioactive. This may harm or help Hedorah. His body was able to nullify the effects of Showa Godzilla's beam. It seems logical (at the moment) to say only the force/push of GxMG's beam will hurt Hedorah.

- If a punch to Hedorah's head took out an eye, GxMG's atomic breath may really injure stinko-man. As MM pointed out, Hedorah has organs and a brain. The question is - can the organs and/or brain reform/regenerate? On one hand, the answer seems to be a resounding "yes." If multiple "tadpoles" can form together, since Hedorah survived his first burning/electrocution, if Hedorah's body/sludge and meld things back together - he should be able to reconstitute his organs/brain. Then there is the "no" side of the equation - if Hedorah could not repair his eye until the "second" Hedorah emerged from the burnt remains, there is no way he can repain damage inflicted upon his brain.

- As has been pointed out before, GxMG Godzilla has some great fortitude. He is one of the few kaiju that can be taking the brunt of an attack (such as Kiryu's masers), charge up, and fire his own volley at the same time. Most other kaiju wait until the opponent's attack is over and then return fire. Thus, it may be possible for GxMG Godzilla to keep fighting through the pain and suffocation from Hedorah's death-mist.

- I do not remember Showa Godzilla using his tail against Hedorah. GxMG Godzilla may be able to use his tail to down Hedorah and then blast him to little bits while he lay on the ground. It seemed GxMG Godzilla was about to finish off Kiryu at least twice by grounding it and lighting it ablaze with the atomic fire (in both movies), only to be interrupted by "outside interference" - so it is not a far-fetched fighting technique for this Godzilla.

So, this fight comes down to corrsiveness versus a forceful beam weapon. Will Hedorah dissolve enough of Godzilla for the win before Godzilla disables the brain or splatters a good deal of Hedorah's makeup across the landscape? Will either kaiju's method really be enough to defeat the other? This is a great fight! I look forward to everyone else's thoughts and opinions! :D

The Great MM

January 3rd, 2005, 11:49 AM

Duh dude! I am not ignoring what other people have to say. He is made out of sludge which physical attacks will go straight through him! But look at what Showa G's ray did to him in their first battle! Hedorah sparked and crusted a tiny amount. His ray didn't go through him! And yes it is a different G ray, but you know what? Not even 400 kilo watts of electricity could rip parts of him off! Not to mention he wasn't even dead the first time.

Again, your comparing TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Electricity doesn't have force, it drys out, and I never said anything about the beam drying him out. You send the electricity into Hedorah, its gonna flow through him, NOT PUSH HIM BACK. The beam will blow strait through and blow what ever is in its way out the back.

Take a chunk of mud. You can punch through it correct? Now take a blow torch and turn on the pressure as high as it can go. It doesn't go through the mud correct? Now imagine that mud is Hedorah, only with a more complexed makeup that nothing in energy form can break it apart! Not even the 400 kilo watts of electricity could do it!

Comparing two different things....YET AGAIN. A blow tourch has VERY little force, its heat. Godzilla's beam plowed through everything it hit, including Kiryu.

And the part about taking out Hedorah's brain, like you said, it's an if. A big if considering the Godzilla that fought Hedorah in his film is considered to be one of the more intelligent Godzilla's around while this one is around the middle of the pack if not lower on the pyramid. Not to mention Showa Godzilla punch right through some of those areas where organs are shown and guess what? It did NOTHING to him! It's not just the brain, it's other organs. You cannot live without some of your organs. And Showa Godzilla punched right into some of those spots and Hedorah just looked at Godzilla and kept fighting. If one of the smartest Godzilla's couldn't figure out to take out his brain, what makes you think a Godzilla that is not as smart as him could do it?

Showa Godzilla=Thought
GXMG Godzilla=Instinct

GXMG showed in his movie he has no problem aiming for a head. And for the hand hit organ thing, you can survive that with minimal damage, even humans. It depends on the organs you it. If you hit the heart with a knife, you die most of the time, you maybe hit a kidney, stomach, or insetine, you can live. The same applied to Hedorah, but if GXMG just starts to blow away his guts, this is over.

not to mention you HAVE NOT even contested anything else from that post of mine with the exception of the Hedorah's gas thing which you overlooked! And if you've ever taken chemistry, you will know carbon, any form infact, is EXTREMELY difficult to take apart the molecules. And if that's not even enough to convince you, I am just wasting my time.

The gas can only be made by flying form, in which it takes time to transform, he isn't gonna get that time, and even if he does, we already saw Godzilla is an expert shot at flying things. Your "carbon is hard to brake" arguement is void, we clearly saw Godzilla stab his hand into Hedorah, if a simple punch can go through, then the beam is gonna shred him.

Oh, BTW, you know why I ignored some of your statements, BECAUSE ME AND MIRREN ALREADY SAID ABOUT THEM. Theres no need for me to waste my time and keep repeating myself.

Now for Ghidorahsaurus

- If a punch to Hedorah's head took out an eye, GxMG's atomic breath may really injure stinko-man. As MM pointed out, Hedorah has organs and a brain. The question is - can the organs and/or brain reform/regenerate? On one hand, the answer seems to be a resounding "yes." If multiple "tadpoles" can form together, since Hedorah survived his first burning/electrocution, if Hedorah's body/sludge and meld things back together - he should be able to reconstitute his organs/brain. Then there is the "no" side of the equation - if Hedorah could not repair his eye until the "second" Hedorah emerged from the burnt remains, there is no way he can repain damage inflicted upon his brain.

Doubt, we seen at the end of "GODZILLA VS. HEDORAH" that he can't reform outside of water, or all those chunks he ripped out would have came together and became a new. And the organs are the organs of the creature, once the Hedrium joined, Hedorah was a creature caused by them coming together. The only real part of him made by the tadpolls are his sludge and blood, and again, they can't reform/join out side of water.

- Hedorah's crimson beam seems to be packing powerful stuff. It floored Godzilla almost every time (or every time). The gases from the beam seemed as powerful or more powerful than Hedorah's gases while in flying form - beam shots that landed near Godzilla had quite the effect.

Godzilla's hide withstood the AZC, even if the water absorbed some of it, that is one hell of a feat. Seeing that is shattered concrete and such, Godzilla should have died. And he only got a scar from it, Hedorah's beam and sludge are just about void here unless he goes for the eyes, which Godzilla won't let him.

ghidorahsaurus

January 4th, 2005, 08:21 AM

Doubt, we seen at the end of "GODZILLA VS. HEDORAH" that he can't reform outside of water, or all those chunks he ripped out would have came together and became a new. And the organs are the organs of the creature, once the Hedrium joined, Hedorah was a creature caused by them coming together. The only real part of him made by the tadpolls are his sludge and blood, and again, they can't reform/join out side of water.Hedorah did not reform the dried out pieces of himself – the pieces that were dried out by the powerful electric current. However, if I said he could reform other lost sludge thingies it would be sheer speculation on my part, since it is never shown in the movie. The thing is, the one and only time we see Hedorah actually lose mass, size, and possibly power, is when he is dried out by Godzilla and the electric current. All of the other times he loses sludge, whether it be purposely or via Godzilla’s fighting, Hedorah does not noticeably lose mass nor size. In some of these instance, such as the attempted “acidic Godzilla bath,” Hedorah excreted great amounts of sludge. He did not become smaller or less powerful. Thus, even if GxMG’s ray “can” knock off chunks of Hedorah, it is going to take a “long” time to wear down the sludge monster.

Godzilla's hide withstood the AZC, even if the water absorbed some of it, that is one hell of a feat. Seeing that is shattered concrete and such, Godzilla should have died. And he only got a scar from it, Hedorah's beam and sludge are just about void here unless he goes for the eyes, which Godzilla won't let him.What you described is a great feat! This version of Godzilla is indeed tough (and I probably do not give him enough credit). The thing I feel being overlooked is Hedorah’s corrosive effectiveness. In his movie, a sludge ball disabled one of Godzilla’s eyes. When Godzilla poked his hand through Hedorah, Godzilla lost all skin, muscle, and tissue on his hand, leaving only the bone. The crimson beam, though not strong enough to topple or cripple GxMG Godzilla, was powerful enough to stymie any retaliation from Showa Godzilla. Used in this battle, the crimson beam can make it difficult for GxMG Godzilla to breath and provide an opening for Hedorah to jump on him or spray more gases (in flying form) or other nasty, poop-related attacks.

The way I see it, the movie showed no limit to Hedorah’s corrosive effect. Hedorah simply flying around turned humans into bony remains. Metal structures melted and folded due to the creature’s mere presence. A crap-blob put out Showa Godzilla’s eye. Diarrhea sludge dissolved all but the bone in Godzilla’s hand. With such a powerful dissolving effect, it seems to me Hedorah would melt away Godzilla for the win before Godzilla can knock out enough chunks of Hedorah for the win.

Though I am still not ready to vote and anxiously look forward to any "pro-Godzilla" reasoning! ;)

PyrasTerran

January 4th, 2005, 09:47 AM

Given the arguement going on, I'm leaning towards Hedorah.

GXMG Goji's beam, yes, has alot more force in it than Showa Goji's beam.

However, it is still not a physical force. You require something physical, a sledgehammer, a punch, a tail, for it to be something that would go right through Hedorah's body. An energy shot won't penetrate that much as it's designed to do damage on mere contact.

Let's take the Blob of X-Men fame, for instance.. If you attempt punching him, you're fist is gonna go right into his fat, almost as if he is a blob.

However, letting a water-hose on full blast isn't gonna drive its way through the mutant's body.

The same can be applied for Hedorah, somewhat.

The force of the beam may leave a dent in Hedorah temporarily, yes, but I doubt it's going to blow right through him.. Because Hedorah is still one single mass. Wasn't he thrown around? If what you say is true about Hedorah's mass being so liquidated, then Hedorah should have splattered all across the landscape if he was tossed about. But he obviously is capable of keeping himself together.

I also heavily doubt that shooting bullets will go right through him, but rather get stuck in him. Same with arrows and any other physical projectiles.

And, that's my 2 cents.

The Great MM

January 4th, 2005, 11:46 AM

Hedorah did not reform the dried out pieces of himself – the pieces that were dried out by the powerful electric current. However, if I said he could reform other lost sludge thingies it would be sheer speculation on my part, since it is never shown in the movie. The thing is, the one and only time we see Hedorah actually lose mass, size, and possibly power, is when he is dried out by Godzilla and the electric current. All of the other times he loses sludge, whether it be purposely or via Godzilla’s fighting, Hedorah does not noticeably lose mass nor size. In some of these instance, such as the attempted “acidic Godzilla bath,” Hedorah excreted great amounts of sludge. He did not become smaller or less powerful. Thus, even if GxMG’s ray “can” knock off chunks of Hedorah, it is going to take a “long” time to wear down the sludge monster.

This may be true, but there are A LOT of things in Hedorah ALA: Organs. If Godzilla starts blasting away at his stomach, those organs are gonna be crushed, blew away, or simply destroyed, leaving Godzilla the victor.

What you described is a great feat! This version of Godzilla is indeed tough (and I probably do not give him enough credit). The thing I feel being overlooked is Hedorah’s corrosive effectiveness. In his movie, a sludge ball disabled one of Godzilla’s eyes. When Godzilla poked his hand through Hedorah, Godzilla lost all skin, muscle, and tissue on his hand, leaving only the bone. The crimson beam, though not strong enough to topple or cripple GxMG Godzilla, was powerful enough to stymie any retaliation from Showa Godzilla. Used in this battle, the crimson beam can make it difficult for GxMG Godzilla to breath and provide an opening for Hedorah to jump on him or spray more gases (in flying form) or other nasty, poop-related attacks.

The way I see it, the movie showed no limit to Hedorah’s corrosive effect. Hedorah simply flying around turned humans into bony remains. Metal structures melted and folded due to the creature’s mere presence. A crap-blob put out Showa Godzilla’s eye. Diarrhea sludge dissolved all but the bone in Godzilla’s hand. With such a powerful dissolving effect, it seems to me Hedorah would melt away Godzilla for the win before Godzilla can knock out enough chunks of Hedorah for the win.

Though I am still not ready to vote and anxiously look forward to any "pro-Godzilla" reasoning!

The acid stuff may corrode/burn his skin, and nothing else. If his body stood up to the AZC, I see nothing that Hedorah can dish out that will actually effect his skin, and even if it does, Godzilla has regeneration, FAR MORE then his cousin, Showa Godzilla.

However, it is still not a physical force. You require something physical, a sledgehammer, a punch, a tail, for it to be something that would go right through Hedorah's body. An energy shot won't penetrate that much as it's designed to do damage on mere contact.

It doesn't need to be. We saw Godzilla imaple his fist into Hedorah, if a simple punch can go through him, then GXMG's beam is gonna tear him to shreds, and not just chunks, but half his body, arms, legs, etc at a time. And your still forgeting that Hedorah has organs and a brain, if GXMG hits his brain, this is over.

Let's take the Blob of X-Men fame, for instance.. If you attempt punching him, you're fist is gonna go right into his fat, almost as if he is a blob.

However, letting a water-hose on full blast isn't gonna drive its way through the mutant's body.

No, it can't. Blob=human, Hedorah=sludge. Hedorah isn't fat, his sludge acts completely different. Hell, they even said in his movie that bullets went through him, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say a high pressure hose would also.

The force of the beam may leave a dent in Hedorah temporarily, yes, but I doubt it's going to blow right through him.. Because Hedorah is still one single mass. Wasn't he thrown around? If what you say is true about Hedorah's mass being so liquidated, then Hedorah should have splattered all across the landscape if he was tossed about. But he obviously is capable of keeping himself together.

I never said anything about him being complete liquid, from what I seen, he has a solider covering over hid body (probably dried sludge). He would need that to keep his organs coming out. But if a FIST went through it with NOT ANY RESISTANCE FROM THE BODY, then the beam is gonna go strait through it, into his body, and destroy any organ in it, and blow what ever is in its way out the back, weather it pieces of Hedorah's body or his organs. And the sheer force of the beam would smash any organ in it hits.

I also heavily doubt that shooting bullets will go right through him, but rather get stuck in him. Same with arrows and any other physical projectiles.

You know me, I go by what I see/hear in the film unless its completely stupid (Like they say Godzilla is a three foot midgit), but if it seems reasonable (like this) and they say bullets went through, I'm gonna say bullets went through.

PyrasTerran

January 4th, 2005, 06:45 PM

It doesn't need to be. We saw Godzilla imaple his fist into Hedorah, if a simple punch can go through him, then GXMG's beam is gonna tear him to shreds, and not just chunks, but half his body, arms, legs, etc at a time. And your still forgeting that Hedorah has organs and a brain, if GXMG hits his brain, this is over.

Did the punch go right through him so that you could see it poking out the other side? Was Godzilla able to run right through Hedorah and come out the other side?

No, it can't. Blob=human, Hedorah=sludge. Hedorah isn't fat, his sludge acts completely different. Hell, they even said in his movie that bullets went through him, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say a high pressure hose would also.

Blob = mutant. His flesh is far from similar to that of humans.

Also, Hedorah's sludge doesn't act too different. I already pointed out that if he was truely like a true sludge blob, then he would splatter across the landscape after one toss. But he is obviously able to keep himself together. This can keep Godzilla from being able to walk through him, etc.

I never said anything about him being complete liquid, from what I seen, he has a solider covering over hid body (probably dried sludge). He would need that to keep his organs coming out. But if a FIST went through it with NOT ANY RESISTANCE FROM THE BODY, then the beam is gonna go strait through it, into his body, and destroy any organ in it, and blow what ever is in its way out the back, weather it pieces of Hedorah's body or his organs. And the sheer force of the beam would smash any organ in it hits.

If he was truely a sludge monster than he wouldn't have organs the same way humans do, MM..

And if he did, then that punch Godzilla delivered should have killed him as it would have ruptured an organ.

The only organs Goji would be able to hit reside in the head, last I checked.

You know me, I go by what I see/hear in the film unless its completely stupid (Like they say Godzilla is a three foot midgit), but if it seems reasonable (like this) and they say bullets went through, I'm gonna say bullets went through.

There's a difference between 'through' and 'completely through', though, MM. You can say a bullet went through the lake but that doesn't mean it shot all the way in and through the waterbed and several meters into the soil. If you drive a spear through someone, that doesn't necesarily mean it went completely through and out the other side. It's all a matter of the way you say.

The Great MM

January 4th, 2005, 07:04 PM

Did the punch go right through him so that you could see it poking out the other side? Was Godzilla able to run right through Hedorah and come out the other side?

Kinda hard when his body is thicker then Godzilla's arm length.

Also, Hedorah's sludge doesn't act too different. I already pointed out that if he was truely like a true sludge blob, then he would splatter across the landscape after one toss. But he is obviously able to keep himself together. This can keep Godzilla from being able to walk through him, etc.

Answer=

I never said anything about him being complete liquid, from what I seen, he has a solider covering over hid body (probably dried sludge). He would need that to keep his organs coming out.

If he was truely a sludge monster than he wouldn't have organs the same way humans do, MM..

I'm going by the bio pic, they sure as hell look like organs to me, prove me wrong, then this debate is yours.

And if he did, then that punch Godzilla delivered should have killed him as it would have ruptured an organ.

Depends on what organ he hit or if he even hit one. You can stab a person with a knife and not kill them and only cause little damage. Chances are Godzilla either...

1. Didn't push his hand in far enough cause it didn't go to far because of his reach.

2. Went between an organ (IE: Slid his hand between two organs so he missed em both)

3. Hit something that wasn't really vital.

There's a difference between 'through' and 'completely through', though, MM. You can say a bullet went through the lake but that doesn't mean it shot all the way in and through the waterbed and several meters into the soil. If you drive a spear through someone, that doesn't necesarily mean it went completely through and out the other side. It's all a matter of the way you say.

Depends on how you look at it.
------------

PS: Stop saying "MM" after each starting sentence...kinda got on my nerves ;)

kent

January 4th, 2005, 11:48 PM

Kinda hard when his body is thicker then Godzilla's arm length.

In their first encounter, Godzilla's hand did go completely through. Although Hedorah was smaller at the time.

I'm going by the bio pic, they sure as hell look like organs to me, prove me wrong, then this debate is yours.

The problem is MM, we've had problems with Toho contradicting their kaiju's powers, abilities, etc. They say or print something in a book, but the movie depicts otherwise. I mentioned to you earlier that Godzilla punched in places where the pic shows Hedorah has organs, but it did nothing to Hedorah. We are going by the films here because that is where we can see the kaiju going at it against one another. The actual fights are the gems here...not the pics.

1. Didn't push his hand in far enough cause it didn't go to far because of his reach.

That is possible; but some of those punches did go in kinda deep.

2. Went between an organ (IE: Slid his hand between two organs so he missed em both)

That is possible as well.

3. Hit something that wasn't really vital.

It's possible too but here's the thing. In the human body, you can survive with one kidney. Not to mention, I think I got the right organ, a person can live without their gallbladder. Otherwise, every organ is important.
Lungs= Need them to breathe
Heart= Need it to carry oxygenated blood to every part of your body and to replenish blood with oxygen.
Liver= Helps breakdown food and other enzymes.
Bladder= Need it to help push waste out of the body

You get the picture.

And out of curiousity, what kaiju is that in your signature picture?

PyrasTerran

January 5th, 2005, 09:26 AM

I'm going by the bio pic, they sure as hell look like organs to me, prove me wrong, then this debate is yours.

This is the final form, yes?

Also, I never saw this bio pic.

But keep in mind I didn't say he wouldn't have organs, I said he wouldn't have organs the same way other terrestrial animals do.

2. Went between an organ (IE: Slid his hand between two organs so he missed em both)

The problem is MM, we've had problems with Toho contradicting their kaiju's powers, abilities, etc. They say or print something in a book, but the movie depicts otherwise. I mentioned to you earlier that Godzilla punched in places where the pic shows Hedorah has organs, but it did nothing to Hedorah. We are going by the films here because that is where we can see the kaiju going at it against one another. The actual fights are the gems here...not the pics.

Actually, I feel this may be of more consequence than you might think.

There is a villian in an animation that is able to rearrange his organs around his body, preventing a gun or sword from ever hitting anything vital.

I can see it being VERY possible that Hedorah is capable of moving his organs about too. Something that would be activated once something came in contact with the "skin".

The Great MM

January 5th, 2005, 11:43 AM

Actually, I feel this may be of more consequence than you might think.

There is a villian in an animation that is able to rearrange his organs around his body, preventing a gun or sword from ever hitting anything vital.

I can see it being VERY possible that Hedorah is capable of moving his organs about too.

He will eventually get luck, especially if he aims for the head.

And out of curiousity, what kaiju is that in your signature picture?

The Bio Dragon from "Dragon Fighter".

It's possible too but here's the thing. In the human body, you can survive with one kidney. Not to mention, I think I got the right organ, a person can live without their gallbladder. Otherwise, every organ is important.
Lungs= Need them to breathe
Heart= Need it to carry oxygenated blood to every part of your body and to replenish blood with oxygen.
Liver= Helps breakdown food and other enzymes.
Bladder= Need it to help push waste out of the body

Like I said, he might have missed an organ comoletely.

In their first encounter, Godzilla's hand did go completely through. Although Hedorah was smaller at the time.

Will need to check.

PyrasTerran

January 5th, 2005, 04:38 PM

He will eventually get luck, especially if he aims for the head.

If given the time, anyone can get lucky. But the question is: will he last long enough to hit Hed where it hurts? We know that Kiryu Goji can be knocked out with enough damage, and Hedorah is a walking blob of pain.

The Great MM

January 5th, 2005, 04:42 PM

If given the time, anyone can get lucky. But the question is: will he last long enough to hit Hed where it hurts? We know that Kiryu Goji can be knocked out with enough damage, and Hedorah is a walking blob of pain.

As I said before, I don't think the sludge and beam can do all that much. If his skin stood up to the AZC, I just don't see the sludge and beam doing much besides making a small burn which would heal strait away, maybe if he aimed for the eyes...

But I for one, see Godzilla going for the head, its in his natural insticts, attack the head. If Hedorah loses his head....this IS over, even if he was able to move his brain *WHICH IS STILL JUST SPECULATION*, he would lose both eyes...then hes blind.

The only thing that would seem affective is the gas...and he needs to be in Flying Form...and that would give Goji ample time to attack.

PyrasTerran

January 5th, 2005, 07:21 PM

As I said before, I don't think the sludge and beam can do all that much. If his skin stood up to the AZC, I just don't see the sludge and beam doing much besides making a small burn which would heal strait away, maybe if he aimed for the eyes...

Acid works differently, though. It continues to corrode until the acid itself is overwhelmed. Now, Biollante's organic acid did seem potent, but obviously it wasn't enough to stunt Godzilla's regeneration. However, Hedorah is FAR from composed of organic acid. That, and he's a WALKING pile of acid. Do you really think that Hedorah simply falling all over Goji isn't going to do any damage?

But I for one, see Godzilla going for the head, its in his natural insticts, attack the head. If Hedorah loses his head....this IS over, even if he was able to move his brain *WHICH IS STILL JUST SPECULATION*, he would lose both eyes...then hes blind.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, as you've yet convinced me that this Godzilla's beam will effectively dmaage Hed. Also, wasn't Hedorah able to escape from his initial electrode shock?? Moreover, can someone tell me exactly how Hedorah split up from his body in an attempt to flee?

The only thing that would seem affective is the gas...and he needs to be in Flying Form...and that would give Goji ample time to attack.

Again, simply falling onto Kiryu Goji, smothering him with his mass, I believe would be enough.

The Great MM

January 5th, 2005, 07:34 PM

Acid works differently, though. It continues to corrode until the acid itself is overwhelmed. Now, Biollante's organic acid did seem potent, but obviously it wasn't enough to stunt Godzilla's regeneration. However, Hedorah is FAR from composed of organic acid. That, and he's a WALKING pile of acid. Do you really think that Hedorah simply falling all over Goji isn't going to do any damage?

I don't see what the acid would do if Goji keeps regenerating, and if that is true on what you say, why didn't it dissolve Goji's bone? And Hedorah and Godzilla ROLLED around on the ground, and nothing happened to Goji till he punched em.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, as you've yet convinced me that this Godzilla's beam will effectively dmaage Hed. Also, wasn't Hedorah able to escape from his initial electrode shock?? Moreover, can someone tell me exactly how Hedorah split up from his body in an attempt to flee?

Hedorah's body was punctured by a simple punch, then I am betting money a beam that can send a gigantic mech flying is gonna rip him to pieces, thats all the evidence I can give. And according to Toho Kingdom, that was a different Hedorah, some child one or what ever that was inside him.

Again, simply falling onto Kiryu Goji, smothering him with his mass, I believe would be enough.

Didn't do anything to Showa Godzilla, and that won't happen here, cause I doubt GXMG will let em get close.

PyrasTerran

January 5th, 2005, 08:55 PM

I don't see what the acid would do if Goji keeps regenerating, and if that is true on what you say, why didn't it dissolve Goji's bone? And Hedorah and Godzilla ROLLED around on the ground, and nothing happened to Goji till he punched em.

What do you mean? You mean that Godzilla's punch actually damaged Hedorah?

Hedorah's body was punctured by a simple punch, then I am betting money a beam that can send a gigantic mech flying is gonna rip him to pieces, thats all the evidence I can give. And according to Toho Kingdom, that was a different Hedorah, some child one or what ever that was inside him.

It wasn't punctured, dude, his body is amorphous, it doesn't had an actual dermis, you can't "puncture" it anymore than you can puncture water. However, Hedorah is able to keep himself intact, so no, a beam with alot of force isn't going to rip through him, but will rather have him be sent flying the way Kiryu did(and keep in mind it only sent Kiryu flying ONCE. that was because of the angle the beam was coming from.)

Didn't do anything to Showa Godzilla, and that won't happen here, cause I doubt GXMG will let em get close.

What are you talking about?? Kiryu Goji let opponents get close to him PLENTY of times. He PROVOKED hand-to-hand combat against Kiryu several times. He loves coming in close.

The Great MM

January 5th, 2005, 09:06 PM

What do you mean? You mean that Godzilla's punch actually damaged Hedorah?

No, I mean the punch hurt Godzilla (dissolved his hand to the bone), but if the acid is so strong kaijuwise, why didn't it dissolve his bone also?

It wasn't punctured, dude, his body is amorphous, it doesn't had an actual dermis, you can't "puncture" it anymore than you can puncture water. However, Hedorah is able to keep himself intact, so no, a beam with alot of force isn't going to rip through him, but will rather have him be sent flying the way Kiryu did(and keep in mind it only sent Kiryu flying ONCE. that was because of the angle the beam was coming from.

Godzilla impaled his hand into him. Hedorah can't be just sludge, I already showed the bio pic, he has organs and a brain, along with a "shell" like body, he would need it to keep the sludge inside him and organs from escaping and going all over the place, but as we saw, the "shell" isn't very strong. Oh, I'm only calling it a shell cause I can't think of any other term to use...husk maybe? ANYWAY, as I have been saying, if a punch broke the "shell", then a beam of GXMG's force is gonna shatter it and go strait through, any organs in their way are gonna be destroyed, either by being blown out the back, broken in two, or crushed...take your pick.

What are you talking about?? Kiryu Goji let opponents get close to him PLENTY of times. He PROVOKED hand-to-hand combat against Kiryu several times. He loves coming in close.

Your point being what? Even at hand to hand, Hedorah did very little damage, Godzilla did more damage to himself at hand to hand with Hedorah. And once GXMG does get some of that acid on him, if it manages to eat away some of his flesh, hes gonna be cutting loose with the beam. And like I said, Hedorah fell on Showa Godzilla and they both rolled down the side of a mountain/hill, and nothing happen to Goji.

kent

January 5th, 2005, 11:29 PM

I don't see what the acid would do if Goji keeps regenerating, and if that is true on what you say, why didn't it dissolve Goji's bone?

To answer the regeneration question...the Kiryu-Goji is perhaps the worst Godzilla as far as having a speedy regeneration. He was still healing from that scar Kiryu had given him. The acid will hurt him and the effects will be prolong.
To answer the bone, who knows. It could be with him being a product of atomic radiation, his bones may have certain properties that make it harder to eat up. Who really knows?

And Hedorah and Godzilla ROLLED around on the ground, and nothing happened to Goji till he punched em.

It's different when you're rolling MM because not all of the opposing weight is fully on you at once. The momentum of rolling down a hill just keeps you two rolling down the hill. But when you are on flat ground, that's when you feel the weight of your opponent. I imgaine you have wrestled with someone in your lifetime and/or rolled down a hill with someone and notice the difference.

Hedorah's body was punctured by a simple punch, then I am betting money a beam that can send a gigantic mech flying is gonna rip him to pieces, thats all the evidence I can give.

And I have constantly proven to you it won't work. I have given you an analogy of the mud and not to mention Kiryu is made out of a different material than Hedorah. It is two completely DIFFERENT things made out of DIFFERENT material. It doesn't hold much water and that is where you are struggling because this is the biggest key to this battle. But even then it wouldn't matter because of Hedorah's makeup not to mention that when he uses his sludge attack, he didn't lose height or mass. Either way MM, it's not going in your direction. Sorry bud.

And according to Toho Kingdom, that was a different Hedorah, some child one or what ever that was inside him.

WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is not plausible.

Didn't do anything to Showa Godzilla, and that won't happen here, cause I doubt GXMG will let em get close.

Pyras is RIGHT ON THE MONEY! I imagine you have both Kiryu films right MM? It is proven Kiryu-Goji loves to get in close to opponents.

No, I mean the punch hurt Godzilla (dissolved his hand to the bone), but if the acid is so strong kaijuwise, why didn't it dissolve his bone also?

Read my one answer to this question above...

Godzilla impaled his hand into him. Hedorah can't be just sludge, I already showed the bio pic, he has organs and a brain, along with a "shell" like body,

A shell like body? MM, his body looked like a shell because of the bad suit. If it was done with a better suit or even in CGI, Hedorah would be a walking muck.

he would need it to keep the sludge inside him and organs from escaping and going all over the place, but as we saw, the "shell" isn't very strong.

*forgetting the shell word is present* His "shell" for one is not existent as you seem to think it is. Hedorah is ONE GIANT SOLID MASS of muck, carbon, sulfur, etc. It's like a dab of shampoo; it's one dab of ingredients that make up shampoo and is ONE SOLID MASS.

Oh, I'm only calling it a shell cause I can't think of any other term to use...husk maybe?

There is no outer covering to Hedorah.

ANYWAY, as I have been saying, if a punch broke the "shell", then a beam of GXMG's force is gonna shatter it and go strait through, any organs in their way are gonna be destroyed, either by being blown out the back, broken in two, or crushed...take your pick.

I'm sorry but I am getting tired of having to address this. You even said in your last post all the evidence you can give is that it pushed Kiryu. And now you are going back to making it like it is a given it will go through. I know you can't really prove it, but if you can PROVE, PROVE MM, that his blast will go through Hedorah AND prove he will lose mass (even though the film clearly shows he didn't when he lost pieces of sludge), AND prove that he will be damaged in the organs (even though in the film Godzilla punched through areas where Hedorah has organs according to that pic of yours), then I will go along with it and say Godzilla has a shot at winning. Otherwise, you are just fighting a lost cause. With all of the stuff I have given you in that one post on the previous page, that is more than enough to prove Hedorah will win. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that Kiryu-Goji will win the fight. You keep hanging on to the hypothetical "reasoning" that Kiryu-Goji's ray can go through Hedorah and blast Hedorah to bits even though I have proven to you, thanks in part to the Hedorah film, that even if his ray can go through Hedorah, he won't lose mass or height nor will he really be affected by the ray at all. We have proven your arguments wrong yet you still hang on to those arguments simply because you refuse to lose a debate. It almost seems like you are not trying anymore MM.

Your point being what?

Oh jeez. :nonono2: MM, you said in your previous post that Kiryu-Goji won't let Hedorah get close to him; and now you are asking what our point is?! The point is is that Kiryu-Goji does let opponents in close and Hedorah proved more effective at HTH than Kiryu-Goji who seemed to dance with his opponents more than trading punches. Not to mention Hedorah doesn't need to get in close in the first place to when this battle.

Godzilla did more damage to himself at hand to hand with Hedorah.

Which is what Kiryu-Goji will do when he does go toe to toe with Hedorah.

And once GXMG does get some of that acid on him, if it manages to eat away some of his flesh, hes gonna be cutting loose with the beam.

Doubt it. He's not the brightest of Gojis. Kiryu let loose an assault on him in their first meeting and all he did was retreat. Same thing in their second meeting where, at the beginning of the battle, Kiryu unleashed missiles and his maser. Godzilla didn't fire his ray until well into the halfway point of the battle.

And like I said, Hedorah fell on Showa Godzilla and they both rolled down the side of a mountain/hill, and nothing happen to Goji.

Read my answer to this in the earlier part of this post...

The Great MM

January 5th, 2005, 11:52 PM

To answer the regeneration question...the Kiryu-Goji is perhaps the worst Godzilla as far as having a speedy regeneration. He was still healing from that scar Kiryu had given him. The acid will hurt him and the effects will be prolong.
To answer the bone, who knows. It could be with him being a product of atomic radiation, his bones may have certain properties that make it harder to eat up. Who really knows.

Uhh... this only proves you have no idea how the AZC works. IT FREEZES ATOMS. Godzilla coming out with JUST A SCAR is unholly powers, the S.O.B had to regenerate atoms, the very thing every single thing is made of. Not even GXM's or Burning Godzilla's would be able to do a feat like that. As this was pointed out by Spydrmanjr in his report on GXMG's regeneration.

It's different when you're rolling MM because not all of the opposing weight is fully on you at once. The momentum of rolling down a hill just keeps you two rolling down the hill. But when you are on flat ground, that's when you feel the weight of your opponent. I imgaine you have wrestled with someone in your lifetime and/or rolled down a hill with someone and notice the difference.

Funny, cause after they got down to the bottom, Hedorah remained on top for some time, and still nothing happened.

And I have constantly proven to you it won't work. I have given you an analogy of the mud and not to mention Kiryu is made out of a different material than Hedorah. It is two completely DIFFERENT things made out of DIFFERENT material. It doesn't hold much water and that is where you are struggling because this is the biggest key to this battle. But even then it wouldn't matter because of Hedorah's makeup not to mention that when he uses his sludge attack, he didn't lose height or mass. Either way MM, it's not going in your direction. Sorry bud.

You havn't proven it wrong because your comparing complete different things. A blow torch and mud are WAYYYYYY different then an atomic ray and Hedorah's body. Your proving it wrong in your head only, so far you havn't brought up any valuable statements besides "he doesn't lose mass" in which I already stopped with that realising you were right, but theres still organs inside him, and if a PUNCH went through a beam is gonna also, especially a heavy force one. Sorry bud.

WHAT?! I'm sorry, but that is not plausible.

Blasting his radioactive breath at one of the electrodes, the energy was bounced back and forth between, trapping Hedorah in a vortex of utter pain and agony. Seeking self preservation, the burning power forced the two Hedorahs to split up. The offspring made its escape flying away, but the much larger was already doomed.

The electrocution wasn't fully finished when Goji started to pull stuff out, the eggs/eyes/sacs as only the outside was destroyed, another Hedorah split off.

Pyras is RIGHT ON THE MONEY! I imagine you have both Kiryu films right MM? It is proven Kiryu-Goji loves to get in close to opponents.

I havn't seen SOS in a few months (will in a few weeks), but from what I remember and in GXMG, Goji went beam happy just about every time. When Kiryu was at rage, THEN he went hand to hand.

A shell like body? MM, his body looked like a shell because of the bad suit. If it was done with a better suit or even in CGI, Hedorah would be a walking muck.

If a suit change can give SpaceGodzilla and Biollante regeneration, then the same is gonna be said here that Hedorah has a "shell"/"husk".

*forgetting the shell word is present* His "shell" for one is not existent as you seem to think it is. Hedorah is ONE GIANT SOLID MASS of muck, carbon, sulfur, etc. It's like a dab of shampoo; it's one dab of ingredients that make up shampoo and is ONE SOLID MASS.

http://www.tohokingdom.com/web_pages/articles/images/hedorah_cutaway.htm

There is no outer covering to Hedorah.

Then mind sharing with me what is keeping Hedorah's sludge like blood and organs from spilling all over the place IF he is "shampoo" like?

I'm sorry but I am getting tired of having to address this. You even said in your last post all the evidence you can give is that it pushed Kiryu. And now you are going back to making it like it is a given it will go through. I know you can't really prove it, but if you can PROVE, PROVE MM, that his blast will go through Hedorah AND prove he will lose mass (even though the film clearly shows he didn't when he lost pieces of sludge), AND prove that he will be damaged in the organs (even though in the film Godzilla punched through areas where Hedorah has organs according to that pic of yours), then I will go along with it and say Godzilla has a shot at winning. Otherwise, you are just fighting a lost cause. With all of the stuff I have given you in that one post on the previous page, that is more than enough to prove Hedorah will win. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that Kiryu-Goji will win the fight. You keep hanging on to the hypothetical "reasoning" that Kiryu-Goji's ray can go through Hedorah and blast Hedorah to bits even though I have proven to you, thanks in part to the Hedorah film, that even if his ray can go through Hedorah, he won't lose mass or height nor will he really be affected by the ray at all. We have proven your arguments wrong yet you still hang on to those arguments simply because you refuse to lose a debate. It almost seems like you are not trying anymore MM.

You havn't proven it wrong because your comparing complete different things. A blow torch and mud are WAYYYYYY different then an atomic ray and Hedorah's body. Your proving it wrong in your head only, so far you havn't brought up any valuable statements besides "he doesn't lose mass" in which I already stopped with that realising you were right, but theres still organs inside him, and if a PUNCH went through a beam is gonna also, especially a heavy force one. Sorry bud.

Because I didn't feel like typing that again.

Oh jeez. MM, you said in your previous post that Kiryu-Goji won't let Hedorah get close to him; and now you are asking what our point is?! The point is is that Kiryu-Goji does let opponents in close and Hedorah proved more effective at HTH than Kiryu-Goji who seemed to dance with his opponents more than trading punches. Not to mention Hedorah doesn't need to get in close in the first place to when this battle.

I had to recheck the movie for that. Yes, Pyras was right, but he didn't go hand to hand until Kiryu was in range, other then that, he was cutting loose with the beam, hell...even when Kiryu was getting up.

Which is what Kiryu-Goji will do when he does go toe to toe with Hedorah.

As you said, GXMG Goji acts more of an animal, ANY animal that gets hurt when facing a foe will try and back away, but sence as we seen, GXMG isn't affraid to cut loose with the beam when he is overwelmed.

Doubt it. He's not the brightest of Gojis. Kiryu let loose an assault on him in their first meeting and all he did was retreat. Same thing in their second meeting where, at the beginning of the battle, Kiryu unleashed missiles and his maser. Godzilla didn't fire his ray until well into the halfway point of the battle.

Cause he knew the creature inside was his father or what ever, would you attack your father if he was inside some machine? No, not until he actually starts to hurt you. When Mothra came in, Godzilla was all over her.

ALLOSAURZ

January 6th, 2005, 01:48 AM

Eh I thin Hedorah will win why? I think it is a bit odd that GXMGgoji's breath could send Kiryu flying but yet couldn't crush or move a tank. Also the version of showa goji in Smog MOnster had a particularly stong breath as it was able to sustain the weight of Godzilla in the air for sometime but yet did not harm Hedorah. Also Hedorah was whopping showa-goji the smartest Godzilla their is so GXMG goji's intelligence really doesn't matter. Also showa goji was the best h2h fighter of all the Godzilla's. Hedorah's acid melted showa goji's flesh to the bone almost instantly.I don't even think GXMG's regeneration could handle that. GXMG goji only survived the AZC cannon because most of the energy (or lack of since talking about cold) went into freezing not only Godzilla's chest but mostly water. IF you look BEfore Godzilla and Kiryu are flown into the water there is a little space between them. This means water was between them when the AZC went off. NOw if you notice after the tower of ice shattersGodzilla and kiryu are a long ways apart. Now it is my belief that this thin sheet of ice protected goji enough that the expansion of the water freezing plowed him out of the way of most of the AZCs deadly effects. PLain and simple though if goji were hit with the AZC on land then he would have been toast. So in conclusion Hedorah wins.

ghidorahsaurus

January 6th, 2005, 08:46 AM

No, I mean the punch hurt Godzilla (dissolved his hand to the bone), but if the acid is so strong kaijuwise, why didn't it dissolve his bone also?Quick thought – the most powerful weapon used in all kaiju-dom, the Oxygen Destroyer, did not liquefy or even touch Godzilla’s bones. The rest of Godzilla’s body was completely obliterated, yet his bones remained. This fact points to the conclusion Godzilla’s bones are among the toughest structures in the world (similar to Wolverine’s adamantium skeleton). So, Hedorah’s acid not dissolving Godzilla’s bones does not imply the acid is not potent.

As for whether Hedorah’s body has a shell or husk, I agree with Monster Master. The only time Godzilla was burned by Hedorah’s sludge was when Hedorah spit acid blobs on him and when Godzilla punched into Hedorah, puncturing the shell/husk, and reaching the “flowing” sludge. The outer shell/husk can almost be considered the dried remains of sludge, not the flowing sludge within (bad wording – hopefully the point is made). In addition, as Monster Master pointed out, when Hedorah’s body was on top of Godzilla (while they were fighting/wrestling), Godzilla was not burned or hurt in the least. When Hedorah purposely jumped on Godzilla’s head and excreted the acidic sludge, Godzilla was injured.

With that said, I still have a hard time buying the opinion GxMG Godzilla’s atomic breath will rip Hedorah to shreds or puncture the shell/husk on its way to destroying organs/brains. I will attempt to use someone else’s past example of flexible chain mail armor. This armor will protect the wearer of blunt strikes, including the side of a sword. However, the pointy edge of the sword, arrows, or any objects that provide pressure in one small localized spot, can and will puncture the armor. Applying this to Hedorah, Showa Godzilla’s hand penetrated the shell/husk because of the pressure being applied to a relatively small area. On the other hand, GxMG’s radioactive spew will be pushing against Hedorah’s body in a larger contact patch. Think of Showa Godzilla using the palm of his hand with his fingers extended – this way, he has less chance of puncturing Hedorah’s shell/husk. Finally, look at the results of GxMG’s (and S.O.S.’s) radioactive fire on Kiryu – the robot’s armor was not penetrated or dented – the force of the blasts “threw” the metallic soldier. This is what I believe will happen to Hedorah – he will be tossed around by the powerful push of the beam, but not ripped to pieces. Similar to what happened to G2K Godzilla when hit by the UFO’s and Orga’s concussive blasts.

This opinion is the main reason I still lean towards Hedorah. Changing this opinion may very well change my perceived outcome of this battle. I will keep an open mind to any replies. ;)

PyrasTerran

January 6th, 2005, 10:05 AM

No, I mean the punch hurt Godzilla (dissolved his hand to the bone), but if the acid is so strong kaijuwise, why didn't it dissolve his bone also?

You don't consider an acid fast enough to leave you as bones strong?? You're asking for a mountain out of a buff. I didn't know Hedorah's acid was strong enough to leave his hand a skeletal, but now that I do, I'm even more inclinced to say Hedorah will win.

Godzilla impaled his hand into him. Hedorah can't be just sludge, I already showed the bio pic, he has organs and a brain, along with a "shell" like body, he would need it to keep the sludge inside him and organs from escaping and going all over the place, but as we saw, the "shell" isn't very strong. Oh, I'm only calling it a shell cause I can't think of any other term to use...husk maybe? ANYWAY, as I have been saying, if a punch broke the "shell", then a beam of GXMG's force is gonna shatter it and go strait through, any organs in their way are gonna be destroyed, either by being blown out the back, broken in two, or crushed...take your pick.

I think membrane would be the best term to use, for future reference.

But keep in mind, if a mere punch "broke" this membrane then why didn't the toss that was done to him? There is much more force in that than there is in a simple punch.

And if it was really "punctured", then don't you think Hedorah's body would have oozed of itself??

Your point being what? Even at hand to hand, Hedorah did very little damage, Godzilla did more damage to himself at hand to hand with Hedorah. And once GXMG does get some of that acid on him, if it manages to eat away some of his flesh, hes gonna be cutting loose with the beam. And like I said, Hedorah fell on Showa Godzilla and they both rolled down the side of a mountain/hill, and nothing happen to Goji.

That very roll proves that Hedorah's membrane isn't as fragile as you make it out to be.

Secondly, Ghidorahsaurus just brought up the fact that Hedorah can actually extrete ooze from his body: When Hedorah purposely jumped on Godzilla’s head and excreted the acidic sludge, Godzilla was injured.

What's to stop Hedorah from doing this again?

One also has to keep in mind that Hedorah was fighting a defensive battle. The entire time in the movie, he wasn't out to kill Godzilla. Yes, his methods could have, but in the long run all he wanted from Godzilla was to be left alone. He decided to try taking him out to do that, but it was still a defensive strategy.

But this time, Hedorah is offensive. There's no reason to disbelieve that he could smother GXMG, then unleash a pathos of ooze all over him, burning him to the bone.

ghidorahsaurus

January 6th, 2005, 10:54 AM

Though I still favor Hedorah in this battle, I feel the need to state the effects of Hedorah’s acidic sludge are very inconsistent. In all of the previously mentioned scenes, such as Godzilla punching Hedorah, Hedorah chucking harmful blobs on Godzilla, and Hedorah excreting sludge on Godzilla from above (either perched on top of Godzilla or while flying/jumping above him [or both] – I cannot completely remember), Godzilla absorbed observable injury. However, the one scene that sticks out in my mind contradicting the power of Hedorah’s acidic sludge is when Godzilla was in the crater/valley and Hedorah stood above, covering Godzilla for a sludge bath. If this excrement was as powerful as it was in the other scenes, the battle would have ended right then and there. As long as my memory is correct, when Godzilla got out of this predicament, he had no visible damage. Even while he was drenched in the sludge, there was no smoke or “eating away” sounds, indicating he was being injured little to none. I cannot remember how he escaped the hole.

Just a note/thought – not that it changes the battle in any significant way. ;)

PyrasTerran

January 6th, 2005, 03:14 PM

That's one of the scenes that stay clear in my mind as well(the last time I saw the film was when I was 7). I have one possible theory, in that Hedorah can extrete 2 different kinds of ooze, when Godzilla was swimming in that pool of harmless ooze, it may have just been used to immobilize him.

MirrenDono

January 6th, 2005, 03:33 PM

PyrasTerran

January 6th, 2005, 03:46 PM

Pyras, are we forgetting now that Kiryu Goji's hide is about ten times that of Shoshingecki Goji? And that his fortitude is the same? He was broken into by only the electric sword, the drill hand, and the AZC, no other weapon even came close to breaking his skin and half the time barely even hurt him. Hedorah's sludge is gonna hurt, but no where near enough. The eye-beam is inconsistant in wounding, it's not gonna help. And the gases can only be used while in flight, and that's not gonna help. Hedorah's only chances of winning are to get close, and Goji usually doesn't like to do that. He'll eventually use the beam, and one shot to the upper-body area should secure him the victory. And guess what. On bipedal enemies, it's the norm that that's where Goji hits while standing up.

Look who finally decided to rejoin the party :p

Sorry, Mirren, but your outlook on Goji's hide is flawed.

Yes, he has incredibly thick skin. But that has NOTHING to do with acid's power. A Xenomorph's blood can very quickly seep right through a ship's hull, a hull that may be so strong you can crash a truck into it and it won't break. Acid doesn't simply damage the hide, it eats it and continues to eat so long as there is flesh and gravity permits it.

And, I don't see why everything thinks Kiryu-Goji is beam-happy. What was the first thing he did when confronting Kiryu the second time? Charge him. This Godzilla loves to wrestle. Do you really think Kiryu would have lasted longer if Kiryu-Goji was the beamhappy kaiju people are making him out to be? Kiryu Goji prefers hand-to-hand combat, there's no if's and's or but's about it.

This could also be an erractic aspect of it, though it's seems that it's normally that it's pushing power. Heck, it could be changed by how much he charges up, he might possibly be able to control it!

Kiryu was lifted into the air because of the angle the beam was coming in from(from below, diagonally). It never lifted him into the air any other time. Also, it took at least a second for Kiryu to actually get off the ground when the beam was hitting him. Just some info for anyone interested, that's all.

MirrenDono

January 6th, 2005, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by PyrasTerran
Look who finally decided to rejoin the party :p
Come on you know I love defending this guy ;)

Yes, he has incredibly thick skin. But that has NOTHING to do with acid's power. A Xenomorph's blood can very quickly seep right through a ship's hull, a hull that may be so strong you can crash a truck into it and it won't break. Acid doesn't simply damage the hide, it eats it and continues to eat so long as there is flesh and gravity permits it.
True in one sense, yes, I will admit. But think on something here. What will it burn into more? Normal kaiju skin? Or uber tough Kaiju skin that's like friggin' rock!?

Hell, I seriously think I saw smoke from Kiryu's drill when he dug into Goji's chest :laugh:

And, I don't see why everything thinks Kiryu-Goji is beam-happy. What was the first thing he did when confronting Kiryu the second time? Charge him. This Godzilla loves to wrestle. Do you really think Kiryu would have lasted longer if Kiryu-Goji was the beamhappy kaiju people are making him out to be? Kiryu Goji prefers hand-to-hand combat, there's no if's and's or but's about it.
Umm...no. He may've went in for a charge, but can you honestly say that he used more physical combat than his beam against Kiryu? Well, you can, but it'll be dead wrong.

Kiryu was lifted into the air because of the angle the beam was coming in from(from below, diagonally). It never lifted him into the air any other time. Also, it took at least a second for Kiryu to actually get off the ground when the beam was hitting him. Just some info for anyone interested, that's all.
It still sent him flying though, and quite a good distance, I doubt many other beams could do that.

kent

January 6th, 2005, 04:23 PM

True in one sense, yes, I will admit. But think on something here. What will it burn into more? Normal kaiju skin? Or uber tough Kaiju skin that's like friggin' rock!?

One thing, it's not like rock because as shown in the films, Godzilla's skin is malleable just like any other skin. Acid will have the same effects whether it touches metal or skin.

Umm...no. He may've went in for a charge, but can you honestly say that he used more physical combat than his beam against Kiryu? Well, you can, but it'll be dead wrong.

You're wrong my friend on the grounds that anyone who says Kiryu-Goji is beam happy is dead wrong. If I remember correctly, he only used the beam on Kiryu about twice in their first film. Not to mention he used about three or four times in GMMG and that battle was well over 45 minutes (but longer in the film). Kiryu-Goji, as Pyras has mentioned, is a brawler, not a beam-happy kaiju like you and MM make him out to be.

It still sent him flying though, and quite a good distance, I doubt many other beams could do that.

I believe it was Ghidorahsaurus who pointed out the fact that Showa Godzilla's beam LIFTED him and propelled him a great distance to catch Hedorah. That, in itself, is impressive and powerful.

MirrenDono

January 6th, 2005, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by kent
One thing, it's not like rock because as shown in the films, Godzilla's skin is malleable just like any other skin. Acid will have the same effects whether it touches metal or skin.
Depends on how tough the metal is, and how strong the acid is. As we've seen, the acid is inconsistant, and nothing like the horrid corrosive strength of Biollante's. Also, Hedorah cannot send it out into huge blobs. He can, but as we've seen in the pool, it did not burn away at Goji at all. Those small chunks aren't gonna be even close to downing Kiryu Goji, and Goji's not gonna get close to him all that much to break him open with a physical blow.

You're wrong my friend on the grounds that anyone who says Kiryu-Goji is beam happy is dead wrong. If I remember correctly, he only used the beam on Kiryu about twice in their first film. Not to mention he used about three or four times in GMMG and that battle was well over 45 minutes (but longer in the film). Kiryu-Goji, as Pyras has mentioned, is a brawler, not a beam-happy kaiju like you and MM make him out to be.
Okay kent, do you wanna know why I got so mad at you before? And why I feel like doing it again?

Because you have no friggin' idea what you're saying

In GxMG, Goji went physical three times against Kiryu. He did the grappling/ramming sequence, the claw slash, and the massive kick. He used his beam four times.

In Tokyo S.O.S, he goes physical four times. When he hurls Mothra by the leg with his mouth, when he tail whips Kiryu, when he slams the Mothra Larva on the ground with his tail, and when he grapples and falls into the Capitol with Kiryu. Wanna know how much he uses his beam? Twice against Kiryu, three times against Mothra, two times against the Larva, and once against the military attack *during the final battle* Now, according to logical math, that's eight times, and more than four.

Watch the movies before you go off with a pathetic comment like that

I believe it was Ghidorahsaurus who pointed out the fact that Showa Godzilla's beam LIFTED him and propelled him a great distance to catch Hedorah. That, in itself, is impressive and powerful.
It never touches the ground, and he's never moved back at all by it whenever he blasts it, therefor there's no force to it. And even if that is false, in a jet-pack, what is it that moves you? Pure force? Or the heat?

PyrasTerran

January 6th, 2005, 06:12 PM

Come on you know I love defending this guy

Who, kent for GXMG Goji? because you like to put down GXMG Goji a whole lot to prove how "superior" MG'74 is to Kiryu :p

True in one sense, yes, I will admit. But think on something here. What will it burn into more? Normal kaiju skin? Or uber tough Kaiju skin that's like friggin' rock!?

Hell, I seriously think I saw smoke from Kiryu's drill when he dug into Goji's chest

There was smoke when we saw the drill missiles go into Godzilla's hide, as well. But what we saw most was pieces of flesh flying out.

Still, Godzilla can be knocked out from the pain even if it doesn't kill him. He has shown that he can be overwhelmed from pain.

Umm...no. He may've went in for a charge, but can you honestly say that he used more physical combat than his beam against Kiryu? Well, you can, but it'll be dead wrong.

Okay kent, do you wanna know why I got so mad at you before? And why I feel like doing it again?

Because you have no friggin' idea what you're saying

In GxMG, Goji went physical three times against Kiryu. He did the grappling/ramming sequence, the claw slash, and the massive kick. He used his beam four times.

In Tokyo S.O.S, he goes physical four times. When he hurls Mothra by the leg with his mouth, when he tail whips Kiryu, when he slams the Mothra Larva on the ground with his tail, and when he grapples and falls into the Capitol with Kiryu. Wanna know how much he uses his beam? Twice against Kiryu, three times against Mothra, two times against the Larva, and once against the military attack *during the final battle* Now, according to logical math, that's eight times, and more than four.

Watch the movies before you go off with a pathetic comment like that

Even though Kent's calculations are wrong, you yourself brought up the point that he only used his beam twice on Kiryu in Tokyo SOS. 4(5 if you include the one that he shot when the AZC got him at the same time) in GXMG. Now look at the other Godzilla's of the millenium. GXM Goji? 'First thing he did to Megaguirus was shoot off his beam, and he tries it several more times. He THEN resorts to hand-to-hand combat. GMK? Only needed one blast to kill any of his opponents, so he would set them up for one. GXMG? First thing he does against Kiryu is run towards him to wrestle. THEN he resorts to using his beam. He does HTH first, and beams come into play as he keeps fighting. So no, he's not going to "stay away" from Hedorah, or just blast him, he's going to meet up with the beast face-to-face just like he did with Kiryu, Kameobas and Mothra.

You want beam-happy, look at Heisei Godzilla. How many beams did he hit MG II with, exactly??

It never touches the ground, and he's never moved back at all by it whenever he blasts it, therefor there's no force to it. And even if that is false, in a jet-pack, what is it that moves you? Pure force? Or the heat?

Both.

However, are you saying that the beam never touches the ground? If you are, you are dead wrong and I can prove it with pictures. You are indeed right that Kiryu-Goji's body never received recoil from the blast, but then again, which Godzilla's do?? Not even Burning Godzilla's spiral blast or GXM Goji's black-hole-killing beam showed the effects of recoil.

MirrenDono

January 6th, 2005, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by PyrasTerran
Who, kent for GXMG Goji? because you like to put down GXMG Goji a whole lot to prove how "superior" MG'74 is to Kiryu :p
XD

Actually, I'm starting to believe now that Kiryu would indeed defeat Showa Mechagodzilla, no matter which version. Curse you Pyras :p

There was smoke when we saw the drill missiles go into Godzilla's hide, as well. But what we saw most was pieces of flesh flying out.

Still, Godzilla can be knocked out from the pain even if it doesn't kill him. He has shown that he can be overwhelmed from pain.
The only time's we've seen Godzilla get knocked down were by physical blows or extreme explosions like Kiryu V.2 rocket launchers. Heck, his position was unchanged even after the huge blast from Mothra's explosive powder.

Even though Kent's calculations are wrong, you yourself brought up the point that he only used his beam twice on Kiryu in Tokyo SOS. 4(5 if you include the one that he shot when the AZC got him at the same time) in GXMG. Now look at the other Godzilla's of the millenium. GXM Goji? 'First thing he did to Megaguirus was shoot off his beam, and he tries it several more times. He THEN resorts to hand-to-hand combat. GMK? Only needed one blast to kill any of his opponents, so he would set them up for one. GXMG? First thing he does against Kiryu is run towards him to wrestle. THEN he resorts to using his beam. He does HTH first, and beams come into play as he keeps fighting. So no, he's not going to "stay away" from Hedorah, or just blast him, he's going to meet up with the beast face-to-face just like he did with Kiryu, Kameobas and Mothra.
He uses his beam on Kiryu only twice for probably one reason, that's all he needed ;)

In Tokyo S.O.S, he doesn't go physical on Kiryu right away because he's being bombarded by missiles and auto-lasers. Then the first attack he performs is a beam

Now, what you've said on the other Kaiju is true. But, you've gotta realize something. Indeed Goji most surely will go physical at first, clawing and biting and kicking and grappling. Though soon, he's gonna pull out a beam. If we look at it, whenever his enemy is on par with him or better than him in physical combat, or he's trashing him with other weapons, he resorts to his beam. Unlike Showa Goji, he's not conservative with the beam, and doesn't perfer hand-to-hand combat for the majority of his battles. It takes a minute or two for him to pull out the beam, but when it comes times he's not afraid to blast it off as much as needed, and surely it'll take Hedorah much longer than five minutes to even take down this Goji

You want beam-happy, look at Heisei Godzilla. How many beams did he hit MG II with, exactly??
Many...

But I know what you're saying. Kiryu Goji is not beam happy, but he prefers to over time use the beam more

However, are you saying that the beam never touches the ground? If you are, you are dead wrong and I can prove it with pictures. You are indeed right that Kiryu-Goji's body never received recoil from the blast, but then again, which Godzilla's do?? Not even Burning Godzilla's spiral blast or GXM Goji's black-hole-killing beam showed the effects of recoil.
Well then, lets look at the other effects on Kaiju.

Ghidrah- Just burns his shoulder

Gigan- Doesn't move him back at all, just 'burns' him

Hedorah *land*- Just blasts, doesn't move him at all

Three good examples of him using his beam on other Kaiju, and not once did Shoshingecki Goji's beam show force to it, simply burning, and 'blasting' if you will, but not even really

PyrasTerran

January 6th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Actually, I'm starting to believe now that Kiryu would indeed defeat Showa Mechagodzilla, no matter which version. Curse you Pyras

Ahahaha..

Comparing Kiryu to MG1 is like comparing a Mustang to a Model T. ;)

The only time's we've seen Godzilla get knocked down were by physical blows or extreme explosions like Kiryu V.2 rocket launchers. Heck, his position was unchanged even after the huge blast from Mothra's explosive powder.

I don't see how this contradicts what I said.

He uses his beam on Kiryu only twice for probably one reason, that's all he needed

In Tokyo S.O.S, he doesn't go physical on Kiryu right away because he's being bombarded by missiles and auto-lasers. Then the first attack he performs is a beam

Correct. He was familiar enough to Kiryu to know that all he really needs to do is just shoot him up.

ANd actually he shot at Kiryu 3 times, if I'm not mistaken. The first one was dodged.

Now, what you've said on the other Kaiju is true. But, you've gotta realize something. Indeed Goji most surely will go physical at first, clawing and biting and kicking and grappling. Though soon, he's gonna pull out a beam. If we look at it, whenever his enemy is on par with him or better than him in physical combat, or he's trashing him with other weapons, he resorts to his beam. Unlike Showa Goji, he's not conservative with the beam, and doesn't perfer hand-to-hand combat for the majority of his battles. It takes a minute or two for him to pull out the beam, but when it comes times he's not afraid to blast it off as much as needed, and surely it'll take Hedorah much longer than five minutes to even take down this Goji

As long as we are clear that he tries to defeat the opponent with hand-to-hand combat first, then we should have no more qualms.

Many...

But I know what you're saying. Kiryu Goji is not beam happy, but he prefers to over time use the beam more

Correct. It's not the first thing on his list, is what is trying to be said.

Well then, lets look at the other effects on Kaiju.

Ghidrah- Just burns his shoulder

Gigan- Doesn't move him back at all, just 'burns' him

Hedorah *land*- Just blasts, doesn't move him at all

Three good examples of him using his beam on other Kaiju, and not once did Shoshingecki Goji's beam show force to it, simply burning, and 'blasting' if you will, but not even really

I'm not sure what you're trying to make a point at.. is it that Kiryu-Goji's beam is multitudes stronger than Showa Goji's beam? If that's the case, then you don't need to argue that, I know that full well.

MirrenDono

January 6th, 2005, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by PyrasTerran
Ahahaha..

Comparing Kiryu to MG1 is like comparing a Mustang to a Model T. ;)
True true :laugh:

I don't see how this contradicts what I said.
I mentioned that as examples of why Goji is hard to bring down.

Correct. He was familiar enough to Kiryu to know that all he really needs to do is just shoot him up.

ANd actually he shot at Kiryu 3 times, if I'm not mistaken. The first one was dodged.
Well, okay. I was going by an actual hit, but thank you

As long as we are clear that he tries to defeat the opponent with hand-to-hand combat first, then we should have no more qualms.
No we shouldn't

Correct. It's not the first thing on his list, is what is trying to be said.
I accept that

I'm not sure what you're trying to make a point at.. is it that Kiryu-Goji's beam is multitudes stronger than Showa Goji's beam? If that's the case, then you don't need to argue that, I know that full well.
No, I was implying it in a force-power, but now that I think about it overall it's far stronger. I was saying that to prove more of its pushing power, to disprove the whole thing of "Shoshingecki Goji's beam has super force, and Hedorah took it fine"

...

Whoa! Wait, someone document this. I and Pyras are ending one of our arguments peacefully...

:laugh:

Solar_Behemoth

January 6th, 2005, 09:36 PM

Damn, how did I miss this great topic?
Hilarious flame wars and excellent kaiju debates. My favorite kind of topic.

BTW, Kiryu Goji wins.
It's simple. There is no doubt his beam would blast through Hedorah, taking out his organs. If it weren't for the fact that Hedorah was a brain and other important organs, the sludge thing would have won.

kent

January 6th, 2005, 11:00 PM

Okay kent, do you wanna know why I got so mad at you before? And why I feel like doing it again?

Because you have no friggin' idea what you're saying

Do it because it will show you are losing composure. I really don't care cause I know what I am talking about. This Goji loves to go HTH and that's how he will mostly fight Hedorah.

You need some help boy.

Watch the movies before you go off with a pathetic comment like that

Mirren, you are so out of touch! I told you I watched them and for you to do so as well. You obviously haven't. I have two pages of notes right here dealing with these two. I have given you EVERYTHING on Hedorah that happened/stated in his film and you completely ignore them! Not to mention you cannot back your statements up saying Kiryu-Goji will blast Hedorah to bits even though I trounced that and even the possibility he could blast Hedorah. I have stated that all on the previous page and you obviously ignore it. Who's being pathetic Mirren?

The Great MM

January 6th, 2005, 11:04 PM

I have two pages of notes right here dealing with these two. I have given you EVERYTHING on Hedorah that happened/stated in his film and you completely ignore them!

Just because they stated it in the film, does not mean its always true. We know Hedorah isn't just sludge (look at the bio-pic). And that scientist wasn't a Hedorah expert, theres no such thing. Hell, if were gonna go by some scientist taking random guesses, then I take it that means Showa Godzilla is actually a cross between a Tyranosaur and a Stegosaur.

Not to mention you cannot back your statements up saying Kiryu-Goji will blast Hedorah to bits even though I trounced that and even the possibility he could blast Hedorah. I have stated that all on the previous page and you obviously ignore it. Who's being pathetic Mirren?

And you can't prove it won't. So far, the only thing you stated is "Hedorah can't brake because he is made of carbon crystals" in which I already proved wrong, he was punctured by a fist, and that pathetic blowtorch<mud thing, which was about the lamest annology I ever read.

kent

January 6th, 2005, 11:10 PM

Just because they stated it in the film, does not mean its always true. We know Hedorah isn't just sludge (look at the bio-pic). And that scientist wasn't a Hedorah expert, theres no such thing. Hell, if were gonna go by some scientist taking random guesses, then I take it that means Showa Godzilla is actually a cross between a Tyranosaur and a Stegosaur.

Whatever is said in the film holds more ground than something like that picture you had shown. And I already had told you guys he is also made up of sulfur, carbon, etc. I never said he was just sludge.

And you can't prove it won't. So far, the only thing you stated is "Hedorah can't brake because he is made of carbon crystals" in which I already proved wrong, he was punctured by a fist, and that pathetic blowtorch<mud thing, which was about the lamest annology I ever read.

I really don't care if the analogy was lame because I never meant for it to be great. The carbonized crystal is what keeps Hedorah intact when Godzilla fires his beams. You two keep ignoring it by saying Kiryu-Goji will still blast through it by not providing evidence it will blast through the carbonized crystal makeup.
And MM, you never proved anything of mine wrong. With the carbonized crystal, if you had read my post carefully, says it will stop his ray. I never said anything of the sorts dealing with physical combat. So you are just wrong and mistaken on that count.

The Great MM

January 6th, 2005, 11:21 PM

Whatever is said in the film holds more ground than something like that picture you had shown. And I already had told you guys he is also made up of sulfur, carbon, etc. I never said he was just sludge.

Not when your going by what Toho said and not some scientist, and then again, which would make Showa Godzilla a Tyranosaur/Stegosaur hybrid.

I really don't care if the analogy was lame because I never meant for it to be great. The carbonized crystal is what keeps Hedorah intact when Godzilla fires his beams. You two keep ignoring it by saying Kiryu-Goji will still blast through it by not providing evidence it will blast through the carbonized crystal makeup.

How the heck do you know how the body works? Did you take the new Hedorah-Biology classes in college or what? Showa Godzilla's beam has NO FORCE ONCE SO EVER, NOT ANY, as we seen in EVERY FILM BEFORE AND AFTER. Or did the film state this, cause I don't remember em, and I would like to see where Toho stated it.

And MM, you never proved anything of mine wrong. With the carbonized crystal, if you had read my post carefully, says it will stop his ray.

Like before, unless you took some new Hedorah-Biology, you don't have any proof of this, never stated it in the film, and I never read anything of the sorts Toho saying it.

I never said anything of the sorts dealing with physical combat. So you are just wrong and mistaken on that count.

Hedorah falling on Godzilla sound familear?

kent

January 6th, 2005, 11:36 PM

How the heck do you know how the body works? Did you take the new Hedorah-Biology classes in college or what?

MM, I'm sure you've seen these debates where physics, biology, chemistry, etc, come into play. Like I said, anyone who has taken chemistry knows carbon atoms, especially crystallized carbon atoms, are very difficult to break up. Heat can't do it, nothing as far as I know can break it up. Don't believe me? Take chemistry or look in a chemistry book. Like I said, science plays into these debates and that is what makes some of thes Godzilla films so fun because you actually learn something from them.

Showa Godzilla's beam has NO FORCE ONCE SO EVER, NOT ANY, as we seen in EVERY FILM BEFORE AND AFTER. Or did the film state this, cause I don't remember em, and I would like to see where Toho stated it.

No force whatsoever? If I recall he was able to lift himself up from the ground and propell himself a decent distance to catch Hedorah. His beam has plenty of force.

Like before, unless you took some new Hedorah-Biology, you don't have any proof of this, never stated it in the film, and I never read anything of the sorts Toho saying it.

Toho doesn't have to say it MM. Science does play into these films. But since you are going by what Toho says I can play that too by saying, I never heard Toho say that Kiryu-Goji's beam could through Hedorah's hide.

Hedorah falling on Godzilla sound familear?

We were talking about Hedorah's weight somthering Godzilla. Not about Godzilla's beam and Hedorah's hide. Remember we debated the rolling down the hill thing? That's where you got that from.

ALLOSAURZ

January 7th, 2005, 12:29 AM

Showa goji's beam as a whole was not very strong however the thing is you can't compare showa goji to himself. I mean can you honestly compare gyakushu goji's power to megaro goji? The two might as well be two completely unrelated monsters. What we do know is showa goji's breath carried him a decent height for a couple miles. Kiryu-goji's never did that. And yet Hedorah survived that beam blast. So Showa goji in G vs The Smog Monsters breath does pack a lot of force.

MirrenDono

January 7th, 2005, 06:47 AM

^ Kiryu Goji never needed to use it as a jet pack ;)

And I've already proven that Shoshingecki Goji's beam does not have a lot of a force, maybe some, but no where near Kiryu Goji's. No need to bring it up again

And kent, I'll get to you later

PyrasTerran

January 7th, 2005, 11:27 AM

Damn, I forgot about the Godzilla flight... That is a lot of force.

The Great MM

January 7th, 2005, 11:37 AM

MM, I'm sure you've seen these debates where physics, biology, chemistry, etc, come into play. Like I said, anyone who has taken chemistry knows carbon atoms, especially crystallized carbon atoms, are very difficult to break up. Heat can't do it, nothing as far as I know can break it up. Don't believe me? Take chemistry or look in a chemistry book. Like I said, science plays into these debates and that is what makes some of thes Godzilla films so fun because you actually learn something from them.

Then do you mind telling me WHEN they said he was carbon crystal, I remember them saying mineral, but never crystal, and again, you can't rely on some half wit scientist.

No force whatsoever? If I recall he was able to lift himself up from the ground and propell himself a decent distance to catch Hedorah. His beam has plenty of force.

We have no idea how he even did that, it might have just been the hot air lifting him and some of the force propelling him, or it may just have been a different beam. But the beam showed NO FORCE when it hit Gigan, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Hedorah, Megalon, etc.

Toho doesn't have to say it MM. Science does play into these films. But since you are going by what Toho says I can play that too by saying, I never heard Toho say that Kiryu-Goji's beam could through Hedorah's hide.

Please provide evidence where you came up with him being carbon crystal, all I remember is mineral. And again, he WAS BROKE.

Showa goji's beam as a whole was not very strong however the thing is you can't compare showa goji to himself. I mean can you honestly compare gyakushu goji's power to megaro goji? The two might as well be two completely unrelated monsters. What we do know is showa goji's breath carried him a decent height for a couple miles. Kiryu-goji's never did that. And yet Hedorah survived that beam blast. So Showa goji in G vs The Smog Monsters breath does pack a lot of force.

We have no idea how he even did that, it might have just been the hot air lifting him and some of the force propelling him, or it may just have been a different beam. But the beam showed NO FORCE when it hit Gigan, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Hedorah, Megalon, etc.

Damn, I forgot about the Godzilla flight... That is a lot of force.

We have no idea how he even did that, it might have just been the hot air lifting him and some of the force propelling him, or it may just have been a different beam. But the beam showed NO FORCE when it hit Gigan, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Hedorah, Megalon, etc.

Excelsior

January 7th, 2005, 11:51 AM

We have no idea how he even did that, it might have just been the hot air lifting him and some of the force propelling him, or it may just have been a different beam.

I've stayed out of this whole debacle until now, but you're seriously reaching here. Hot air lifting Godzilla? Where did the hot air come from? And unless Goji has a huge air sac within his body, where would the hot air be held? Remember how many balloons were needed to keep Kong aloft. Unless he has a huge dewlap that somehow managed to stay off camera during that whole ridiculous sequence, hot air ain't the answer here.

The Great MM

January 7th, 2005, 11:56 AM

I've stayed out of this whole debacle until now, but you're seriously reaching here. Hot air lifting Godzilla? Where did the hot air come from? And unless Goji has a huge air sac within his body, where would the hot air be held? Remember how many balloons were needed to keep Kong aloft. Unless he has a huge dewlap that somehow managed to stay off camera during that whole ridiculous sequence, hot air ain't the answer here.

You know me, I have long arms ;). Anyway, the beam was hot enough to melt steel in seconds...I'm no chemist...but I don't think a hot air baloon fire thingy can...

PyrasTerran

January 7th, 2005, 12:20 PM

But the beam showed NO FORCE when it hit Gigan, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla, Hedorah, Megalon, etc.

MM, the point you're trying to make is a simple flaw of 60's 70's filming. Back then, how exactly do you show the beam implementing scientifically accurate force with such a crappy budget? This isn't a cop-out, it's simply a matter that it isn't something we can argue against, because this fight doesn't have a budget limit.

MirrenDono

January 7th, 2005, 03:36 PM

^ Sorry, but that is a bit of a cop-out. What happens in the movie is what happens in the movie, plain and simple, not if ands or's about it.

Originally posted by kent
Do it because it will show you are losing composure. I really don't care cause I know what I am talking about. This Goji loves to go HTH and that's how he will mostly fight Hedorah.

You need some help boy.No, you need help in learning how to read, or see. I've proven that he uses his beam more than physical combat. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Mirren, you are so out of touch! I told you I watched them and for you to do so as well. You obviously haven't. I have two pages of notes right here dealing with these two. I have given you EVERYTHING on Hedorah that happened/stated in his film and you completely ignore them! Not to mention you cannot back your statements up saying Kiryu-Goji will blast Hedorah to bits even though I trounced that and even the possibility he could blast Hedorah. I have stated that all on the previous page and you obviously ignore it. Who's being pathetic Mirren?....

You. You've ignored half of what's said, and youre stuff has been debunked, yet you continue to bring them up over and over again. Face it, he's easy to break through

You're telling me that I'm not watching the movies? Kent, for the love of God, what the hell are you talking about? You're still set on that Goji uses hand to hand combat more, even when he uses his beam more and I've proven it. Ask anybody else, he uses his beam more than physical combat

ALLOSAURZ

January 7th, 2005, 05:22 PM

MM, the point you're trying to make is a simple flaw of 60's 70's filming. Back then, how exactly do you show the beam implementing scientifically accurate force with such a crappy budget? This isn't a cop-out, it's simply a matter that it isn't something we can argue against, because this fight doesn't have a budget limit.
Actually you could argue that point against Kiryu goji too as his beam knocked Kiryu back but did not budge Mothra when he nuked her

MirrenDono

January 7th, 2005, 06:14 PM

^ That's why I believe it has more of an erractic form, switching between a great heat force and great kinetic force. Or he can control it himself. Either way, eventually he'll get the pushing power off, and Hedorah's in trouble

kent

January 7th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Please provide evidence where you came up with him being carbon crystal, all I remember is mineral. And again, he WAS BROKE.

It is mentioned by the scientist shortly after Hedorah and Godzilla's first encounter. You have to listen carefully. He does say it.
And to reply to saying you can't rely on some half-wit scientist, you do know Toho is behind these Godzilla films right? Whatever is said in the film is part of the "Kaiju Bible" of kaiju facts if you will.

Mirren, buddy, all you have to do is to look at the poll at the top of every page in this thread. Hedorah, is now 4 points ahead. Obviously people have been reading this thread and see where Pyras, Allo and myself come from. We must be doing something right or Hedorah wouldn't be in the lead.

MirrenDono

January 8th, 2005, 12:24 AM

Yeah, they're probably seeing Pyras's posts, he's doing good in this argument for your side

And votes means nothing as who would really win. Nothing by popularity. Quit pulling stuff outta your *** because it's not helping you look better in this thread

kent

January 8th, 2005, 01:18 AM

I have presented items very well in this debate. I gave you a huge post with gobs of info. on Hedorah. I didn't see you do one on him or Kiryu-Goji. I studied that kaiju to the T and you're just a little PO'd cause I actually have been able to prove you wrong on many of your statements. I dunno if you can't comprehend things well or just don't want to admit you have been defeated.
But part of it could be due to your age. You seem like you know everything and therefore everyone should adhere to what you say. You are what...14? 15? And with your last post you are proving to everyone that you are acting your height and not your age. Good composure on your part wouldn't you say so? Not to mention your little swear word in there may get you a warning.
But to comment on your last paragraph there...well votes right here do mean something. In case you didn't see my point, it's obvious that people who have been debating your side this whole way have provided enough evidence to persuade those four people that Hedorah can beat Kiryu-Goji. You have noticed that ever since I provided that info. on Hedorah on page 2 that Kiryu-Goji has not even received one vote since then right? It's stating your side hasn't provided enough trouncing evidence to show that Kiryu-Goji can defeat Hedorah. You may think you're winning but those other four people who have given Hedorah a four point lead think otherwise. We are the debaters, they are the judges. They read our arguments and decide who seems to have the more convincing evidence. Our job is to present it to them (and if possible to try and convince the opposition), but not to decide who is "better." I am reminded of an old saying: "If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person in the world."
As for this debate, I am pulling out because I am not going to waste my time debating someone who seems to throw temper tantrums, is disrespectful, and thinks swearing is a big insult on his opposition. I have better things to do like to help the Council of Thirteen in the next DD. Whether you want to or not Mirren, despite all the mudslinging between us in this thread, I want to still become friends. I am open to it, it's just up to you whether you want to or not. I'd rather make friends than enemies.
KP has been very good to me and by being on this Council I feel like I can actually pay my respects to it. But I will not tarnish my image nor stoop to a low level because of a meaningless debate. It's obvious we are not going to convince one another. I am more or less wasting my time. With that, I pull out.

Continue the debate.

BS Digital Q

January 8th, 2005, 01:26 AM

I made up my mind looooooong ago, I just haven't come around to voting till now. And once I finish watching GXMG and GMMG, be sure I will post my two cents worth later.

MirrenDono

January 8th, 2005, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by kent
I have presented items very well in this debate. I gave you a huge post with gobs of info. on Hedorah. I didn't see you do one on him or Kiryu-Goji. I studied that kaiju to the T and you're just a little PO'd cause I actually have been able to prove you wrong on many of your statements. I dunno if you can't comprehend things well or just don't want to admit you have been defeated.
You brought out good information, but your debating strategy wasn't good at all. You haven't proven any of my arguments wrong yet, and it's been often that you only gloss over my replies

But part of it could be due to your age. You seem like you know everything and therefore everyone should adhere to what you say. You are what...14? 15? And with your last post you are proving to everyone that you are acting your height and not your age. Good composure on your part wouldn't you say so? Not to mention your little swear word in there may get you a warning.
Since when is swearing a rule-breaking on here? And it's not like I put it in there wide open, I starred it out in respect for others who may not like it. And if you think getting mad due to someone whose not arguing and ignoring everything that's being said is 'part of my age', then keep thinking bud

But to comment on your last paragraph there...well votes right here do mean something. In case you didn't see my point, it's obvious that people who have been debating your side this whole way have provided enough evidence to persuade those four people that Hedorah can beat Kiryu-Goji. You have noticed that ever since I provided that info. on Hedorah on page 2 that Kiryu-Goji has not even received one vote since then right? It's stating your side hasn't provided enough trouncing evidence to show that Kiryu-Goji can defeat Hedorah. You may think you're winning but those other four people who have given Hedorah a four point lead think otherwise. We are the debaters, they are the judges. They read our arguments and decide who seems to have the more convincing evidence. Our job is to present it to them (and if possible to try and convince the opposition), but not to decide who is "better." I am reminded of an old saying: "If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person in the world."
Kiryu Goji just got two more votes, oh my God!! We must be the better debaters!

Kent, if you believe that, you're an idiot. The people are obviously not seeing how we've proven that one shot to the head will kill Hedorah. I'm sure if everybody saw that, Kiryu-Goji would have more votes. But that still doesn't matter, votes don't make the win. It's nothing but popularity. Do you believe popularity is the decider of the world kent?

As for this debate, I am pulling out because I am not going to waste my time debating someone who seems to throw temper tantrums, is disrespectful, and thinks swearing is a big insult on his opposition. I have better things to do like to help the Council of Thirteen in the next DD. Whether you want to or not Mirren, despite all the mudslinging between us in this thread, I want to still become friends. I am open to it, it's just up to you whether you want to or not. I'd rather make friends than enemies.
Go ahead pull out, I have no guilt. I became incensed because you were ignoring everything said for page upon page, and you were blowing out some of the absolute stupidiest comments I've ever seen. And when you continue to do for what, five pages, it's hard not to keep your cool.

I'd like to be friends too, and that's another reason why I got mad. What you did in here isn't like you, and oddly you never do it in any other threads.

KP has been very good to me and by being on this Council I feel like I can actually pay my respects to it. But I will not tarnish my image nor stoop to a low level because of a meaningless debate. It's obvious we are not going to convince one another. I am more or less wasting my time. With that, I pull out.
What's there to tarnish? If you bring up logical points, actually prove my stuff wrong, keep up with the debates, not gloss over my posts, not say stupid things like "Kiryu-Mosu-Goji used physical combat more than his beam in Tokyo S.O.S!" and not ignore half of what we're saying, you can have a good debate here.

ghidorahsaurus

January 8th, 2005, 10:38 AM

Here is an analogy describing why I think GxMG Godzilla’s radioactive breath cannot destroy Hedorah as easily as others think.

Sharp objects, such as knives and swords, can easily penetrate a human’s skin. Blunter/duller items, such as knife handles, wrenches, and hammers, can also pierce a human’s skin *when used with enough force.* Now, let’s take a fire hose. It can certainly spray water with a great amount of force. Yet, when used on humans (pranks, prisons, etc.), the water stings like nothing else but it does not rip through the unlucky individual’s skin and wreck his/her organs. Super-sizing a human and fire hose to kaiju standards, assuming the thickness/toughness of the human’s skin and the force over area exerted by the fire hose increase by the same proportion, the fire hose will have the same result – sting but not tear through. This is how I view Hedorah’s membrane (good choice Pyras) and GxMG Godzilla’s atomic fire. Godzilla’s weapon may hurt and slightly injure Hedorah, but I do not see it shredding Hedorah to pieces or penetrating Hedorah’s body enough to obliterate his/her/its internals. ;)

Here are some points others may use to argue against this:

“Showa Godzilla’s hand went through Hedorah’s membrane. A super-sized water hose may make it through Hedorah’s membrane and GxMG’s atomic spew definitely will.”

Almost all iterations of Godzilla, including Showa Godzilla, have shown incredible feats of strength (usually by throwing huge opponents around like they are rag dolls). Humans have also displayed great amounts of strength, but these achievements are usually found at Olympic lifting and power lifting competitions. At these meets, competitors usually (but not always) wear knee wraps, belts, wrist wraps, squat suits, deadlift suits, bench shirts, and other lifting apparel designed to help the competitor throw up more weight. Yet, when we watch any version of “no holds barred fighting,” such as UFC or Pride Fighting, very few times (if ever) do we see one opponent throw around his/her adversary the way Godzilla has done in the past. The only time I can recall seeing anything remotely like this was in one of the earlier UFCs – Dan Severn grabbed a smaller opponent around the torso from behind and basically started suplexing the poor guy. :) This helps me reach the final point here – if/when humans can accomplish this (throwing around a foe), it is almost always going to be against someone *smaller.* Yet, Godzilla has done this against adversaries the same weight or more (thinking of King Ghdidorah). Thus, I feel Godzilla has more strength per body weight than any human. If we take the super-sized human from above (before we spray him/her with the hose), he/she has a much lower chance of punching through Hedorah’s membrane than Godzilla. Godzilla was able to exert a great amount of pressure to a small, localized area – unlike the larger area GxMG’s nuclear breath would be hitting.

“GxMG’s atomic fire went through a building. Therefore, it will go through Hedorah’s membrane.”

A building and Hedorah have two major differences. First, the building is mostly hollow, Hedorah is not. Second, a building is made of concrete and other substances that do not *give.* Once enough pressure is applied to the side of a building, the concrete will start to give way/crumble instead of bending and giving. Hedorah, on the other hand, has a flexible membrane that can give some before being broken through. Again, I feel GxMG Godzilla’s nuclear spew has a much greater chance of tearing through a building than ripping into Hedorah. Looking at this one other way, Godzilla was able to tear down and walk through the building. He will not be able to do this against Hedorah, otherwise Hedorah would have been splattered all across the landscape from the roll he/she/it had with Godzilla down the hill.

Well, those are my thoughts and opinions. Enjoy – and have fun debunking them. :D

The Great MM

January 8th, 2005, 12:08 PM

This is how I view Hedorah’s membrane (good choice Pyras) and GxMG Godzilla’s atomic fire. Godzilla’s weapon may hurt and slightly injure Hedorah, but I do not see it shredding Hedorah to pieces or penetrating Hedorah’s body enough to obliterate his/her/its internals.

The thing here is the punch. If a punch went through him, a normal punch, one he gave to Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla all before with no effect causes the membrane to give in, then a beam of GXMG's strength is gonna brake it/rip into it.

“Showa Godzilla’s hand went through Hedorah’s membrane. A super-sized water hose may make it through Hedorah’s membrane and GxMG’s atomic spew definitely will.”

Eh, I only said that because it has more force then a bullet, in which was said to go through him.

Almost all iterations of Godzilla, including Showa Godzilla, have shown incredible feats of strength

And GXMG is with out that also, at least in the leg muscles if he kicked Kiryu and sent em flying. But like I said, Showa Goji punched Megalon, Gigan, MechaGodzilla, and Ghidorah the same way before, and it didn't have effect.

Thus, I feel Godzilla has more strength per body weight than any human. If we take the super-sized human from above (before we spray him/her with the hose), he/she has a much lower chance of punching through Hedorah’s membrane than Godzilla. Godzilla was able to exert a great amount of pressure to a small, localized area – unlike the larger area GxMG’s nuclear breath would be hitting.

Well I sure as hell hope he does...after all, he is a mutated dinosaur.

“GxMG’s atomic fire went through a building. Therefore, it will go through Hedorah’s membrane.”

Wasn't me who said it, but its false. A building can have any number of explosive things in it.

A building and Hedorah have two major differences. First, the building is mostly hollow, Hedorah is not. Second, a building is made of concrete and other substances that do not *give.* Once enough pressure is applied to the side of a building, the concrete will start to give way/crumble instead of bending and giving.

Agreed.

Hedorah, on the other hand, has a flexible membrane that can give some before being broken through. Again, I feel GxMG Godzilla’s nuclear spew has a much greater chance of tearing through a building than ripping into Hedorah. Looking at this one other way, Godzilla was able to tear down and walk through the building. He will not be able to do this against Hedorah, otherwise Hedorah would have been splattered all across the landscape from the roll he/she/it had with Godzilla down the hill.

I didn't see it be flexible in the least, sence as we saw, a punch went strait through him. If it was flexible, it would have just sunk down instead of braking.

ghidorahsaurus

January 8th, 2005, 05:34 PM

The thing here is the punch. If a punch went through him, a normal punch, one he gave to Gigan, Megalon, Ghidorah, MechaGodzilla all before with no effect causes the membrane to give in, then a beam of GXMG's strength is gonna brake it/rip into it. ;) I disagree on two counts.

The other kaiju Showa Godzilla has punched have tough skin, muscles, bones, maybe some metallic fragments, and other “hard” bits. Hedorah has its membrane, sludge, and some form of organs. It has a completely different makeup than organic monsters, huge cyborgs, and large robots. If the membrane is penetrated or not, Hedorah’s sludge and organs can slide around when pressure is put on them. Even if Showa Godzilla’s fist hit, let’s say Hedorah’s pancreas, chances are it would have simply slid over one way or another within the sludge – all the while the uber-acidic sludge that makes up Hedorah’s body oozes on Godzilla’s fist. Trying to further this line of thought, I believe PyrasTerran brought up the Blob from X-Men. If you hit this guy in the belly with anything that is not sharp (though even sharp things seem unable to harm him), his fat will absorb the punishment. That is exactly what Hedorah’s sludge-filled body will do with forceful blows. Showa Godzilla’s fist may have punctured the membrane (and knocked out Hedorah’s eye), but it did no lasting damage to Hedorah’s body/internals/organs (that we can tell). The sludge simply moved around and absorbed the blow. The same thing will happen when GxMG fires up the breath.

The second reason is the area of contact – I will try to cover it with another analogy below (“Oh, wow, another lame analogy! Can you feel the excitement!?”)

I didn't see it be flexible in the least, sence as we saw, a punch went strait through him. If it was flexible, it would have just sunk down instead of braking.Hedorah’s membrane has to be flexible enough to allow him to move his “arms,” “legs,” and any other appendages. It should be no stiffer than any other kaiju’s “skin.”

Here we go... ;) For this experiment, we will require a balloon, a medium pressure water hose, and someone’s finger. Now, this is going to have all sorts of undefined variables, such as the thickness of the balloon’s “membrane,” the size of the balloon, the water pressure of the hose, and the area of impact from the hose. Hopefully, it will come together to make some sort of point. So, without numbers, let’s say the balloon and water pressure are such that the balloon will not burst – even from concentrated shots in one specific area for long amounts of time (at a distance of 10 feet).

If we place the balloon on the ground, maybe in a ditch so it cannot roll around, and spray the balloon with “passes” from the hose (maybe going side-to-side or up-and-down) 10 feet away from the balloon, this will mimic Godzilla’s usual shot of atomic fire – just make contact. This approach will have little chance of bursting the balloon. Now, if we keep spraying the same area of the balloon from 10 feet away, assuming the above variables are set up all nice and neat for us, the balloon will again not burst. For the show stopping finale, we will amazingly take a person from the crowd and have him/her apply upon the balloon the exact same pressure at the exact same speed as the water from the hose. This last method has a higher possibility of puncturing the balloon. Why? The finger applied the same pressure at the same speed on *one* spot of the balloon in a constant manner. However, the hose sporadically applied pressure. As the water makes its way from the end of the hose to the balloon, it somewhat disperses in the air. What was once a pure stream of water is now a mixture of large and small water droplets traveling at the same speed. Each droplet exerts its own pressure upon the balloon. Though the overall pressure should theoretically add up *near* the pressure from the nozzle (subtract some for drag/aerodynamics/friction), each droplet’s smaller amount of pressure is applied to smaller, separate areas of the balloon. Since this happens, it also seems reasonable if the hose is brought closer to the balloon, the balloon will eventually burst – because the force exerted by the hose becomes less and less dispersed.

In this fight, the constant-pressure finger represents Showa Godzilla’s punch. The hose represents GxMG’s radioactive breath. Godzilla’s atomic fire, though it seems to disperse differently in each film (and sometimes each use), is similar to the water coming out of the hose because the plasma/fire/radioactive remains/whatever seem to slightly come apart. It does not exert pressure as “one continuous stream” – it seems to work like the multitude of water droplets. The one “fact” that seems to back this up is Godzilla’s beam *always* seems to exact more damage the closer it is to the source (his mouth). Point blank shots have always done more damage than regular shots. If GxMG Godzilla held Hedorah on the ground and scored close range hits, I have no doubt Hedorah would be ripped apart. However, long-range shots seem much less likely. Plus, Hedorah will be fighting back and will do whatever it can to prevent this.

Well, I figure most of this one is a stretch, but I wanted to take one more shot at it. I figure even those that feel Hedorah would win can tear this one apart – at least it was fun. :D

The Great MM

January 8th, 2005, 06:03 PM

The other kaiju Showa Godzilla has punched have tough skin, muscles, bones, maybe some metallic fragments, and other “hard” bits. Hedorah has its membrane, sludge, and some form of organs. It has a completely different makeup than organic monsters, huge cyborgs, and large robots. If the membrane is penetrated or not, Hedorah’s sludge and organs can slide around when pressure is put on them. Even if Showa Godzilla’s fist hit, let’s say Hedorah’s pancreas, chances are it would have simply slid over one way or another within the sludge – all the while the uber-acidic sludge that makes up Hedorah’s body oozes on Godzilla’s fist.

Well, I'm watching Hedorah at this exact moment, and on their first encounter, Goji impaled BOTH hands into Hedorah and nothing happen to his hands, right after that Hedorah was roasted and fled, meaning Goji did hurt him, weather it be an organ our not, but I'm assuming it was, sence there was no acid sludge on Goji hands, meaning... the organs are NOT comprised of sludge. And they can't move around.

Hedorah’s membrane has to be flexible enough to allow him to move his “arms,” “legs,” and any other appendages. It should be no stiffer than any other kaiju’s “skin.”

Good point, but doesn't take impact good. As seen when Goji punched him THREE times, the first two, nothing happened to Goji's hands.

Here we go... For this experiment, we will require a balloon, a medium pressure water hose, and someone’s finger. Now, this is going to have all sorts of undefined variables, such as the thickness of the balloon’s “membrane,” the size of the balloon, the water pressure of the hose, and the area of impact from the hose. Hopefully, it will come together to make some sort of point. So, without numbers, let’s say the balloon and water pressure are such that the balloon will not burst – even from concentrated shots in one specific area for long amounts of time (at a distance of 10 feet).

If we place the balloon on the ground, maybe in a ditch so it cannot roll around, and spray the balloon with “passes” from the hose (maybe going side-to-side or up-and-down) 10 feet away from the balloon, this will mimic Godzilla’s usual shot of atomic fire – just make contact. This approach will have little chance of bursting the balloon. Now, if we keep spraying the same area of the balloon from 10 feet away, assuming the above variables are set up all nice and neat for us, the balloon will again not burst. For the show stopping finale, we will amazingly take a person from the crowd and have him/her apply upon the balloon the exact same pressure at the exact same speed as the water from the hose. This last method has a higher possibility of puncturing the balloon. Why? The finger applied the same pressure at the same speed on *one* spot of the balloon in a constant manner. However, the hose sporadically applied pressure. As the water makes its way from the end of the hose to the balloon, it somewhat disperses in the air. What was once a pure stream of water is now a mixture of large and small water droplets traveling at the same speed. Each droplet exerts its own pressure upon the balloon. Though the overall pressure should theoretically add up *near* the pressure from the nozzle (subtract some for drag/aerodynamics/friction), each droplet’s smaller amount of pressure is applied to smaller, separate areas of the balloon. Since this happens, it also seems reasonable if the hose is brought closer to the balloon, the balloon will eventually burst – because the force exerted by the hose becomes less and less dispersed.

Cept Hedorah is stationary, and when Goji punched him two times first, there was no sludge to be, and the hands ripped strait through with pieces of Hedorah in his hands...organs I'd bet, the organs arn't acidic, hell, I'm starting to bet that the sludge is only near the Hedrium sacs and his blood is just that...blood...maybe sludge black blood...but not acidic.

In this fight, the constant-pressure finger represents Showa Godzilla’s punch. The hose represents GxMG’s radioactive breath. Godzilla’s atomic fire, though it seems to disperse differently in each film (and sometimes each use), is similar to the water coming out of the hose because the plasma/fire/radioactive remains/whatever seem to slightly come apart. It does not exert pressure as “one continuous stream” – it seems to work like the multitude of water droplets. The one “fact” that seems to back this up is Godzilla’s beam *always* seems to exact more damage the closer it is to the source (his mouth). Point blank shots have always done more damage than regular shots. If GxMG Godzilla held Hedorah on the ground and scored close range hits, I have no doubt Hedorah would be ripped apart. However, long-range shots seem much less likely. Plus, Hedorah will be fighting back and will do whatever it can to prevent this.

Let's see, we know bullets, rockets, and Godzilla's THREE punches went into his body, the first two went strait through organs causing Hedorah to flee. Now, I'm gonna assume only the Hedrium sac sludge has the acidic effects, sence even when Hedorah spit acid sludge on Goji, it was very minimal damage and stopped a few seconds later, IE: It didn't eat through his skull and shoulders. Now, those organs may not have been something fatal, but still caused A LOT of pain for Heddy to flee. While, I will agree with you on the up close far away beam, but even in hand to hand, Goji owns him now, sence the only time the sludge actually caused major damage was when Goji impaled his hands into the sacs, so now, this leaves Goji to go upclose and rip into him. Also I might add, when Showa Goji was ripping Hedorah to pieces after the membrane was dried out, that sludge also did nothing to his hands.

EDIT: Oh Kent, I still didn't hear the scientist say anything about him being made of carbon crystal.

Also, in flying form, Goji just impaled his hand into Hedorah's HEAD....NOTHING HAPPENED, probably wasn't deep enough for the brain, but sure as hell was for sludge, but nothing happened to his hand.