View Full Version : Belvera and Battra
September 22nd, 2003, 05:17 PM
Battra was seen in the film Godzilla and Mothra: The Battle for Earth. Belvera was seen in the Rebirth of Mothra trilogy. We both know that they are seperate from each other. However, in the New Era they take place in the same contiuity and in said New Era both are alive and well. Considering the similarities between them, it would be very interesting to see the two meet each other.
Perhaps it could even be revealed that Batrra is Belvera's moth. Long ago in the days of the Elias/Cosmos civilization, there were many moths and to the moths there were fairy priestesses. Moll and Lora sought out Mothra but their sister went for Mothra's counterpart and brother of sorts Battra. Battra and Belvera were two happy little trouble makers even though they were often at odds with their sisters.
In the modern age, when the two moths awoke and fought Godzilla Battra died in battle against the King of The Monsters. On learning of this Belvera blamed her sisters and Mothra for this. (she couldn't go after Godzilla. He was dead by now wasn't he?) She thought "If you hadn't made Battra fight Godzilla he would still be alive!" Inaccurate yes, but she was so overcome with grief that she couldn't think well.
In time she made peace with her sisters and stopped blaming them for Battra's demise. However, it was seen by his stand against Bagan that Battra was not dead. How will this affect Belvera on seeing that her freiend has returned?
Perhaps she and Battra could soothe the savage Battle Mothra's heart.
She says "Mothra, you and the Elias guided me and Battra from the darkness. Know its my turn to do the same for you."
So what do you think?
September 24th, 2003, 05:28 AM
Well, as also shown in 'Koumajutsu', the New Era Battra is quite distinct and different from the Mothras. Indeed, Mothra is not a terrestrial creature, she came down from the stars along with the Cosmos civilization (kinda like a benevolent Great Old One, as odd as that concept is). Battra on the other hand is an earth spirit, created by the enchantments of a Cosmos priestess to fight against Bagan. The reason that he was incarnated into a moth shape was because the form was taken from the mind of the priestess, and as a result the spirit has become locked into that sort of shape. Battra is not a primarily physical creature, in this aspect he is similar in many ways to Mothra. He is a spirit and while he can be disabled and weakened by the loss of his physical body, he cannot be destroyed in such a way. He will simply gestate deep within the Earth and form a new body. This process might take centuries, but so long as the Earth itself endures, so too will Battra.
Now, as for Battra being a benevolent creature, I cannot see him as such. He is more concerned with the well-being and safety of the planet rather than humankind. This of him as a sort of eco-terrorist kaiju. True, he can inadvertently be persuaded to help mankind if by doing so he helps the planet, such as his battles with Bagan and Godzilla, but this is not and will never be his motivation. So, I think hopes for a kinder gentler Battra are not going to manifest.
Belvera, on the other hand, is a somewhat enigmatic figure. While some very fascinating and intriguing ideas for her as a priestess of Battra have been made (especially Robert Ranting's take on the relationship), I don't see any connection between them in the New Era. Belvera is more like a fallen Elias, a fairy who has no further hope or faith in the goodness of humanity and feels that the planet can only endure if mankind is put back into his place. Actually, she has quite a bit in common with Lord Conqueror in the way she thinks, though Lord Conqueror's methods would disgust her immensely. It is one thing to conquer an enemy, even kill them, but Lord Conqueror's regime of degradation and spiritual corruption is something else entirely. To tell the truth, I am not entirely certain how Belvera will continue to figure into the events of the New Era, though we can be sure that the 'black Elias' will return.
September 24th, 2003, 01:57 PM
http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif oh fiddlesticks http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
* Just coincedences, eh? Well, it was a good idea while it lasted.
September 26th, 2003, 01:46 AM
Quote[/b] (Morgoth @ Sep. 24 2003,05:28)]Now, as for Battra being a benevolent creature, I cannot see him as such. He is more concerned with the well-being and safety of the planet rather than humankind. This of him as a sort of eco-terrorist kaiju. True, he can inadvertently be persuaded to help mankind if by doing so he helps the planet, such as his battles with Bagan and Godzilla, but this is not and will never be his motivation. So, I think hopes for a kinder gentler Battra are not going to manifest.
<font color='#0000FF'>Hmm, I'm not quite sure that comparing Battra to some eco-terrorist is completely fair. Battra is much more than that. While these eco-terrorists tend to be doing only what they THINK is good for the planet, Battra really IS the physical embodiment of the Earth spirit's anger and will to defend itself. If Battra is out to destroy something, then it is a sure bet that whatever he is out to destroy is indeed harmful to the Earth. That, unfortunetly, doesn't say to many good things about humanity.
September 26th, 2003, 08:54 AM
Bear in mind that not everything that Battra is out to distroy is the result of human actions. Bagan wasn't created by humans. He may have been released by a human (although one wonders if Kato Yasunori can even be called human any more), but the danger he poses are of his own making.
September 26th, 2003, 05:05 PM
<font color='#0000FF'>Yes, but Battra will attack ANYTHING that is a threat to the Earth. And, it would appear that humans are on the list of things Mother Earth considers to be a threat. Perhaps Lord Conquerer could use this in his case against us.
September 26th, 2003, 06:44 PM
I don't know, from what I understand LC will be turning Manchuria into a Charnel House. And charnel houses can be very bad for the surrounding envoerment...
September 27th, 2003, 12:12 AM
Well I think that Belvera and Battra would make a good team. http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/battrasmilie.gif
September 27th, 2003, 12:35 AM
Belvera was responcible for freeing the mana draining Death Ghidorah (twice I might add) and supporated the beram belching Dagahra, both major threats to the environment. Do you really think that Battra would associate himself with the likes of her?
September 27th, 2003, 02:34 AM
http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Well Flathead, at least you and some others like my idea.
Its just that my idea comes from both Belvera and Battra's being darksides to their noble counterparts. So the thought of Belvera and Battra teaming up as a response to the Elias and Mothra just clicked in my mind. As for the idea of those two playing the hero and trying to reason with the angry Battle Mothra, its just that the role reversal seemed interesting to me.
After all, in his movie, after being saved by Mothra, Battra, in turn, saved her. The Cosmos-now called the Elias in the New Era-said "Battra saved Mothra. They've become friends." And we even see the humans cheering him on. As for Belvera, in Rebirth of Mothra II, she saves the people at the end as the wall starts closing and in the next one, she is helping her sisters. When she hears that Moll was dead-or so it seemed-she was actually sad. And she pleaded with the mind controlled Lora to spare Shota: "Don't do it. If you kill a human, it's all over."
While Godzilla 2004 does have some points, I think that Battra could work Belvera. They both have, or had, similar goals: The destruction of the human race in order to save the Earth. As for Belvera's involvement with Death Ghidora and Dagarla, she answered that question when asked by her sisters in the N'Lai K'Nai temple. "The Earth will live on once the humans are gone." Dagarla would cause damage, but his killing of humans would balance the scales. The whole "Burn the town to save it" aproach. Logical? No, but neither is Battra's crusade against an entire civilzation.
However, as creator of Rodan's Roost and of the New Era, Lord Morgoth's word is law and it will be his choice as to whether or not these two decide to play hero. But if they play villain instead, how about this? Seeing the hatred in Battle Mothra, Belvera tries to take her under her wing-metaphorically speaking. She tells B. Mothra that evil humans must be die regardless of the cost in innocent life. She really plans to make B. Mothra her hammer of war againt all the human race.
As this happens, they cause so much havok that Battra decides to intervene. When the Elias see this, they approach him and offer to help. They don't want Mothra to be under Belvera's control any longer; after all threy've been trying to get her back to normal ever since the end of Koumajutsu. And so having common goals, though for different reasons, they team up. However, there would be some conflict seeing how Battra's the badboy and the Elias are the good girls. Belvera and Battle Mothra vs Elias and Battra.
So what do y'all think?
September 27th, 2003, 04:42 PM
<font color='#0000FF'>Interesting ideas Obi-Juan. However, I tend to think of Battra as being in the same league as Godzilla Senior. He is a neutral force representing Nature's wrath. While he may be persuaded to "help out" those with a common goal (like Godzilla did with Spacegodzilla), he will always remain a wild card and will never be anybody's "friend" or "ally". And that's what makes him so cool in my opinion.
In other words, I think what Clint is doing with him is right on the mark http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif
September 29th, 2003, 01:21 PM
Hey, Godzilla hesei was Miki's friend! And he was such a good tagteam buddy for MOGUERA's pilots!
September 30th, 2003, 05:24 PM
<font color='#0000FF'>I'm talking about Godzilla Senior, not Junior. Although Miki cared about him, Godzilla no more cared for her than he did any other human being. Do you remember any scene where Godzilla showed Miki any signs of friendship? Human beings, Miki included, are just insignifigant bugs in Big G's view. And, I highly doubt that Godzilla even realizes that humans are the ones piloting his metallic foes (MechaG, Moguera, Super Xs, masers, etc.).
As for MOGUERA, that little team up was more for convinience than anything else. If MOGUERA had survived, it and Godzilla would have most likely fought each other afterwards.
October 1st, 2003, 01:00 PM
Zigra, please know that that remark of mine was meant as a little joke. Sadly voiceless communication doesn't carry the tone of voice that would imply a joke. However, I do believe that he had some feelings for Miki. At the end of Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla Miki used her powers to telekenikally remove the control device from the base of his neck.
When she did that and it fell away, Godzilla turned around to look at Miki and he nodded. Clearly, its the filmmakers' intent to show that Godzilla does care for Miki after all. Also the fact that Godzilla not only remebered Shindo in Godzilla vs King Ghidora, but acted on those feelings also show that he, Godzilla, is indeed capable of noticing individual humans.
Earlier scenes between hesei Godzilla, though meant as bizaare comedy, also show that he can notice individual humans. The bum in Godzilla 1985 that called him a hick; Godzilla saw him earlier, met him later, looked straight at him and stepped on him. The bum posed no threat. Godzilla had no reason to do it for the sake of self preservation. yet he did it any way.
That's all Zigra and I hope you have a nice day!http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
P.S. To avoid any misunderstandings, I am sincere in wishing you have a nice day Zigra.
October 1st, 2003, 04:39 PM
<font color='#0000FF'>Okay, first of all, in the original Japanese version of G84, Godzilla did not step on that guy. He just looks down at him and then moves on, uninterested. The U.S. version simply made it look like Godzilla stepped on him to make Godzilla look more vicious than he was really suppose to be (they did this a lot; in the original Japanese version, the Super-X attacks Godzilla *first*).
You've got a point about the end of G vs. SpaceG, although I'm not sure whether Godzilla really cared about Miki, or if he just turned around as a way to say "thanks" to whomever took the control device on.
And, since that last post of yours was mean't as a joke, I suppose I can refrain from eating you http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/zigrasmilie.gif
October 1st, 2003, 06:09 PM
Thank you Zigra. I am confident that Godzilla did that to show he cared. After all, its the most obvious interpretation regardless of the events regardless of personal feelings for or against Godzilla being able to care. As for Godzilla 1985, I'll have to buy the subtitles version sometime so I can compare it to the American version I have. One of the big reasons that I liked it [dubbed version] is that despite Godzilla's being as dangerous as he was, the end still made me cry for him.
Glad we reslved our differences Zigra and now back to the topic at hand, Belvera and Battra. And as always have a nice day!
October 2nd, 2003, 12:36 AM
<font color='#0000FF'>Before I get back to the topic at hand, I'd like to say one more thing about the ending to G vs. SpaceG. If Godzilla was indeed showing signs of friendship towards Miki, then it was very odd for him to do so since before that he barely even acknowleged her existance at all. The only time Godzilla acknowledged her before that was the helicopter pad scene in "Godzilla vs. Biollante", and I wouldn't exactly call that a friendly meeting.
Anyway, back to the main topic. Some more problems with Battra and Belvera teaming up includes their character and personalities. Belvera is basically like a typical children's fairy tale villian, and Battra is much more of a serious super monster much along the lines of Godzilla Senior. Having Battra become Belvera's "friend" or "pet" risks reducing him to the level of a kiddie villian like Belvera herself.
Now, it could be quite possible that Belvera could manipulate Battra somehow, or "help" him from somewhere behind the scenes (like Kato did with Bagan), but a genuine team up between these two just wouldn't fit Battra's character. Battra should always remain as an unpredictable wild card. That's just what makes him so damn cool http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Okay, now while we are on the subject, I really need to vent some steam about something and I hope Clint doesn't take to much offense to it. One of the very few things that I don't like about Clint's New Era stories is his decision to include the Heisei Mothra trilogy into it. I'm not really sure why he decided to do so, since the Heisei Godzilla series and the Mothra trilogy don't exist in the same timeline, and since I get the impression that Clint doesn't even like the Heisei Mothra films. The light "kiddie" nature of the Mothra films just doesn't fit with the Heisei/New Era timeline. Even if he wanted to have monsters like Death Ghidorah show up, all he had to do was just reintroduce them as redoes. Oh well, nothing's perfect *shrugs*
October 2nd, 2003, 12:53 AM
Considering they made Minya, what Toho had Godzilla hesei do was only slightly less weird. (Though as a big softie of a Godzilla fan I sure liked it...) But as creator of this post, I would like to ask people to stay on topic. And regardless of whatever reason our Lord Morgoth included the Rebirth Mothra trilogy in his New Era, he did and we must accept it as such. I have complete faith in him and if he should decide to have them join up, though I should say if considering how he said that he didn't like the idea, I am sure he could make them work well together in some way or another either as hero, which is unlikely considering what he said, or villains, or by means of a role reversal with angry Battle Mothra with Belvera and the reluctant Elias with an even more grudging Battra. Of course as I said, its all up to him.
*All hail our leader!
Yeah yeah, now back to ideas on Belvera and Battra, and please stay on topic. Does anyone like the idea?
October 2nd, 2003, 05:37 AM
Well Zigra, I do understand and appreciate the concern over the Rebirth trilogy's inclusion in the timeline. You are right, with the exception of Rebirth 3, I do find them extremely difficult to watch and almost sickeningly sweet and kiddified (by contrast, Rebirth 3 raises the bar enough that it can be compared to some of the lesser entries in the Showa era in terms of its maturity, and is leaps ahead in entertainment value). So why include them? Well, I felt that having these films as a historical aspect of the New Era would help to legitimize some of the mystic and pure fantasy elements I wanted to introduce in my own stories. It would also help me establish a much richer background, with the whole Cosmos civilization explained a bit better, the nasty Death Ghidorah and Grand Ghidorah to play with, as well as a bit more persoanlity to Moll and Lora (as well as some names for the two). It also provided the opportunity to deal a much needed execution to the uber-powerful bug http://www.rodansroost.com/ikonboard/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bagansmilie.gif I don't think anyone would argue that giving some of the monsters a film as their background helps to greatly legitimize them and also makes them feel just a tad bit more 'real'. It also helps to make the entire New Era feel a little more like something that might have actually followed the Heisei series. Besides, it also saves chapters of introducing characters like Belvera or Death Ghidorah.
There are some aspects of the New Era's background that I myself don't like. The DeLaurentis Kong films for example. I don't care for either of them, but they are included too. Why? Firstly, I really needed to have monsters attacking countries other than Japan in the past to make the setting seem a bit more real and less Japan-o-centric. Secondly, much as I would have liked to, the 1933 film just would not work in the context of 'Godzilla vs King Kong'. I do pick and choose alot of what I employ in the New Era's history. Sometimes, though, a movie I don't particularly like fits too well not to use, and one that I do enjoy simply can't (GMK and especially Gamera 3 come to mind).
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