For those who say I'm a Bush-basher: Clinton's gift to the world.

[Kaiser Kronos]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080224/...vo_s_guardians

Wonderful. First, the West manufactures ethnic cleansing bordering on the Nazi scale where it doesn't exist, goes in and (facing no opposition) fails to wipe out the forces perpetrating the make-believe ethnic cleansing, then decides to tweak Ivan and shaft the Serbs by making Kosovo independent. Now, in addition to this lovely gift, Serbs in Serb-majority regions of the newly independent "state" are wanting (quite sensibly) to rejoin Serbia.

http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/494775.html

http://real-us.news.yahoo.com/s/csm/...l_csm/omitro_1

Here is a little gem for the LULZ. Remember, Serbia is using the argument that you can't break constitutional units apart. Remember this upon reading this:

Originally posted by Kosovar hypocrite:
He added that US officials "have not told us" that Mitrovica is lost, "and I hope they will never tell us that Mitrovica is not part of Kosovo. That would set a dangerous example ... borders of constitutional units can't change."

Thanks to Bill Clinton and NATO's manufacturing a genocide while ignoring a real one, we now have the spectre of another war in the Balkans due to the supposed peaceful Clinton-era decision to intervene in something that was a counterinsurgency campaign much like Iraq. By letting Kosovo go free and recognizing it to begin with, nothing good will come of it.

But hey, you can't blame Bush for this one. Though no doubt the media will try.

[Goji Son]

Has anyone ever called you a Bush-basher? And how does Clinton's mistakes somehow level the playing field with Bush's horrible terms in office.

Oh, and you know who recognized Kosovo's independence, right? It was Bush and Congress' call but it's not his fault, though, he certainly didn't help the situation. Yet, it's a tough situation either way you slice it since you can't appease one side without pissing off another.

[Dr. Strangelove]

..

Serbia has started 3 wars in the 20th century.

WW1.

WW2.

Kosovo War.

And yet, in the first two, they managed to come out as victors. I think Kosovo's independence is a decent way to punish Serbia.


That, and unlike Germany, they're not going to come back 20 years later and decimate a continent.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

..

Serbia has started 3 wars in the 20th century.

WW1.

WW2.

Kosovo War.

And yet, in the first two, they managed to come out as victors. I think Kosovo's independence is a decent way to punish Serbia.


That, and unlike Germany, they're not going to come back 20 years later and decimate a continent.

I knew that was you who made that boo-boo of trying to pin the Second World War on the Serbs on AH.com, Herr Doktor! You fail it.

First of all, Serbia started World War I, sure, but to pin WWII on them ignores that a) Hitler. An Austrian WWI veteran with a grudge against the Soviet Union, and doing everything he could to make Uncle Joe look his way wasn't going to help the peace in Europe. B) Serbia won the most out of World War I, so it hardly had motive to start another war. World War II in Europe happened primarily because of three things a) The Western Allies refused to ally with the USSR and hence starve Germany of the natural resources it needed and enable the Wehrmacht to finally kill Hitler, b) Hitler himself didn't expect an Anglo-French declaration over godforsaken Poland, a military dictatorship, when democratic Chezchoslovakia had been dismembered without any counteraction, c) Nobody expected Hitler to be dumb enough to try to unite all Europe under his rule. The only thing Yugoslavia did was put up a pitiful showing against the Wehrmacht in the Balkans campaign. Yugoslavia gained no territory from WWII, and had to deal with Marshal Stalin and the Warsaw Pact on its border.

And you are also wrong in the wars. Yes, Serbia started more than one war in the 20th Century. WWII...wasn't one of them. Kosovo was a counterinsurgency campaign that turned into a Western-manufactured genocide and intervention. The other two wars Serbia started were the First and Second Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 against the Ottoman Empire. Almost, Herr Doktor, but not quite.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kronos

I knew that was you who made that boo-boo of trying to pin the Second World War on the Serbs on AH.com, Herr Doktor! You fail it.

First of all, Serbia started World War I, sure, but to pin WWII on them ignores that a) Hitler. An Austrian WWI veteran with a grudge against the Soviet Union, and doing everything he could to make Uncle Joe look his way wasn't going to help the peace in Europe. B) Serbia won the most out of World War I, so it hardly had motive to start another war. World War II in Europe happened primarily because of three things a) The Western Allies refused to ally with the USSR and hence starve Germany of the natural resources it needed and enable the Wehrmacht to finally kill Hitler, b) Hitler himself didn't expect an Anglo-French declaration over godforsaken Poland, a military dictatorship, when democratic Chezchoslovakia had been dismembered without any counteraction, c) Nobody expected Hitler to be dumb enough to try to unite all Europe under his rule. The only thing Yugoslavia did was put up a pitiful showing against the Wehrmacht in the Balkans campaign. Yugoslavia gained no territory from WWII, and had to deal with Marshal Stalin and the Warsaw Pact on its border.

And you are also wrong in the wars. Yes, Serbia started more than one war in the 20th Century. WWII...wasn't one of them. Kosovo was a counterinsurgency campaign that turned into a Western-manufactured genocide and intervention. The other two wars Serbia started were the First and Second Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 against the Ottoman Empire. Almost, Herr Doktor, but not quite.

Yugoslavia gained http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste after WW2.

And how was it a "western-manufactured Genocide" when it was Serbians, under Milosovic that was killing off minorities?

[Morgoth]

They were killing Moslems, which is not ethnic cleansing but religious genocide. Get the terms right people. Two completely different things, one is persecuting a race, the other a belief.

And while the Serbs did benefit from WWII, you're grasping as wind trying to say they started the damn thing. That should largely be pinned on the ridiculous reparations that crippled the German economy - and by the 1930's it is largely the French who are still exacting that kind of toll from the Germans. I don't think Serbia even got one Reichsmark from the Germans.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Yugoslavia gained http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste after WW2.

And how was it a "western-manufactured Genocide" when it was Serbians, under Milosovic that was killing off minorities?

Many of the Western claims of atrocities were proven wrong, Herr Doktor. You had this discussion on AH.com. Remember those posts?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kronos

Many of the Western claims of atrocities were proven wrong, Herr Doktor. You had this discussion on AH.com. Remember those posts?

IIRC, they never cited sources.


And Morgoth: Weren't they going after Albanians? I could've swore it was an ethnic cleansing, and most of the Albanians happened to be muslim..

[Morgoth]

It was fuelled by vengeance for WWII, when Moslems helped the Nazis run everything from death camps to exectution squads in the Balkans. Alot of Albanians were Moslem and constituted the biggest percentage (along with Bulgarians) of the Moslem SS divisions created by the Grand Mufti. Serbians, as a slavic race, were one of those peoples earmarked for slavery and extermination by the Nazis. Going back even further, Moslems in that part of the world are viewed as traitors who helped the ambitions of the Ottoman Empire, or at best spineless cowards who kowtowed to the Sultan in order to increase their standing under Turkish rule.

That part of the world has alot of violent history and its people have very long memories.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

It was fuelled by vengeance for WWII, when Moslems helped the Nazis run everything from death camps to exectution squads in the Balkans. Alot of Albanians were Moslem and constituted the biggest percentage (along with Bulgarians) of the Moslem SS divisions created by the Grand Mufti. Serbians, as a slavic race, were one of those peoples earmarked for slavery and extermination by the Nazis. Going back even further, Moslems in that part of the world are viewed as traitors who helped the ambitions of the Ottoman Empire, or at best spineless cowards who kowtowed to the Sultan in order to increase their standing under Turkish rule.

That part of the world has alot of violent history and its people have very long memories.

I noticed.

Why hasn't it been glassed yet?

Or better yet, how long until we can revive the Ottoman or Austrian empires? They seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping them quiet.

[Morgoth]

Anybody can do a good job of keeping people quiet if they have the stomach to kill rabble rousers as soon as they rear their heads.

[Goji Son]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Anybody can do a good job of keeping people quiet if they have the stomach to kill rabble rousers as soon as they rear their heads.

And history has proven that keeping the masses tight lipped through fear is the best way to go...



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