Just sick

[Zigra]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32425961&hl=en

[Orga777]

Yeah, I got through a couple minutes before I couldn't take any more. This **** happens way too often for me to be surprised though. It was in another topic that KK brought forth about killing Albinos not even two weeks ago or so that I said this savage brutality happens in these poor, less developed, and mostly war-torn countries and little that can be done. Especially Africa. I just have to shake my head in exasperation and be thankful that I live here in the US which people take for granted sometimes.... It is just... Ugh... Sick is an understatement Zigra...

[Kaiser Kronos]

Originally Posted by Zigra

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32425961&hl=en

This is the kind of savagery that ended in Europe centuries ago. Unfortunately, if the rest of the planet cared about Africa in the first place, the continent wouldn't be in this fix to start with. Damn shame, but there it is.

[Tomzilla]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kronos

Unfortunately, if the rest of the planet cared about Africa in the first place, the continent wouldn't be in this fix to start with.

Even if the world cared, Africa will not change unless they do it themselves. That is what's so hard for the West to comprehend. Going in there, showing how democracy is done, and how order works isn't enough. It's like going to school acting all high and mighty.

"See my new car? Look how awesome I am driving it! You'd look awesome too if you had it!"

It's like asking an evangelical Christian or Muslim fanatic to change their faith. In Africa, this is all they know. This is life. That's why most of the world doesn't swoop in to save the day. It'd be a waste on our part. You can save a few countries, but the continent itself is a different story.

They'll have to save themselves. It's sad, but let these people be a reminder. This is how our distant ancestors lived. This is how they acted. Even in our culture, atrocities are committed. But we've for the most part learned to tame the savage within.

[Komissar]

I don't want to say it's irreparable, but Tom's right that just walking in there and shouting "elections" and "democracy" isn't going to end Darfur. It's not like they're oblivious to how the rest of the functioning world operates, and going there and waving it in their faces isn't going to tell them anything new. They really have to want to organize to get out of the vicious cycles.

Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't help where we can, at least on a humanitarian front (medicines, education, etc). It means that we shouldn't waste effort and resources until we've seen they're ready to take the necessary steps.

[Goji Son]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kronos

This is the kind of savagery that ended in Europe centuries ago.

No it hasn't... Does Nazi Germany ring a bell? The Holocaust? All that indescribable horror was done in the guise of "science" just like this is done in the guise of "religion". Better yet, what about European colonies throughout the world and how the treated the locals, especially in Africa? Sorry, Europe hasn't progressed much farther than anyone else. Any person of any race or nationality is capable of doing something just like this when they are pushed into it.

Even if the world cared, Africa will not change unless they do it themselves. That is what's so hard for the West to comprehend. Going in there, showing how democracy is done, and how order works isn't enough. It's like going to school acting all high and mighty.

"See my new car? Look how awesome I am driving it! You'd look awesome too if you had it!"

It's like asking an evangelical Christian or Muslim fanatic to change their faith. In Africa, this is all they know. This is life. That's why most of the world doesn't swoop in to save the day. It'd be a waste on our part. You can save a few countries, but the continent itself is a different story.

I think you might be a bit too presumptuous and general by saying that this is all they know since there are Africans who believe this to be wrong and condemn these murders. There are many contributing factors as to why these things happen on a massive scale but I always notice desperation being a catalyst for it. These people don't have much and those who live in rural areas rely on their herds or their crops and if things are going bad then they have to find some way to fix it. This behavior is pretty prevalent in human nature, take everything away from some that they can't control and they start looking for scapegoats.

There are a lot of complex problems throughout Africa and very few solutions. Some people want power or money and will do anything to take it and some people just want to survive and will go to any lengths to ensure that they do.

They'll have to save themselves. It's sad, but let these people be a reminder. This is how our distant ancestors lived. This is how they acted. Even in our culture, atrocities are committed. But we've for the most part learned to tame the savage within.

Again, ehhh... This is how we would still act, given their circumstances. These people aren't savages, they are humans capable of learning and doing anything just like you or I, and that school of thought is the reason why many people find aid to Africa or the Middle East to be a lost cause.

It's not that they aren't willing to accept democracy or any other great idea from the Western Civilization (whatever the hell that means) it's that they don't have the means to do it. They might not have the resources like we do because their environment can't grow certain crops or never had the need for democracy since they live in tight nit, nomadic groups and a egalitarian political system fits them better. The things is, when grab people who are using cows and hoes as currency because it is useful to their life and shove a piece of paper that does absolutely nothing for them in their face and tell them that's their new form of money, their system is now much more complicated because of that. Now start drawing lines for them not to cross, telling them how to live, even though their methods and culture fit better to their environment, and then tell them they beneath you and can never reach your level of sophistication and knowledge and see how that goes for them.

Maybe the real problem isn't just what these people, these human beings, are doing but also how we respond to something like this. Perhaps the solution isn't in condemning them and just claiming they are savages. What if we took an extra step in trying to understand their situation and to treat them not as our ancestors but as ourselves? And from there, we can discover that no one is absolved from doing something like this and we could try to better the entirity of the human race some how. This will probably never solve the problem since it is more ideological dreaming than anything else and we all know how well ideologies work out in practice and their may not be a solution. But I find it a hell of a lot better than just claiming they are a lost cause.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, and for that I'm sorry, but I need to be writing a paper and I've spent enough time on this!

[Tomzilla]

Originally Posted by Goji Son

I think you might be a bit too presumptuous and general by saying that this is all they know since there are Africans who believe this to be wrong and condemn these murders.

These people aren't savages, they are humans capable of learning and doing anything just like you or I, and that school of thought is the reason why many people find aid to Africa or the Middle East to be a lost cause.

The bulk of my post was in regards to the 'savages'. There are many good Africans, never denied it. Those children in the video? There's hope for them. Those adults who crucified/nailed/stabbed/burned/killed innocent people? No hope. And they don't deserve it.

[Kaiser Kronos]

Originally Posted by Tomzilla

Even if the world cared, Africa will not change unless they do it themselves. That is what's so hard for the West to comprehend. Going in there, showing how democracy is done, and how order works isn't enough. It's like going to school acting all high and mighty.

Of course if Africans had their state boundaries making some kind of sense instead of arrangments that unite traditional enemies in the same state (the equivalent of locking Nazi-era Germany in one state with Russia)....but that would imply Europe actually gave a flying fuc, which it didn't.

Originally Posted by Tomzilla

It's like asking an evangelical Christian or Muslim fanatic to change their faith. In Africa, this is all they know. This is life. That's why most of the world doesn't swoop in to save the day. It'd be a waste on our part. You can save a few countries, but the continent itself is a different story.

It doesn't help matters that the Africans were deemed savages by Muslim and Christian alike, either. Both great religions have done a lot to screw the society, and the Arab Slave Trade and the Christian Slave Trade combined were....

Originally Posted by Tomzilla

They'll have to save themselves. It's sad, but let these people be a reminder. This is how our distant ancestors lived. This is how they acted. Even in our culture, atrocities are committed. But we've for the most part learned to tame the savage within.

We tamed it because those we'd satiate it on are mostly dead. Its primary victims are now 1.2% of the population whereas in 1491 they were 100% o the population. Our genocide is too little remembered. The primary difference between Manifest Destiny and Germany a century later is that one was victorious, the other failed absymally.

Originally Posted by Goji Son

No it hasn't... Does Nazi Germany ring a bell? The Holocaust? All that indescribable horror was done in the guise of "science" just like this is done in the guise of "religion". Better yet, what about European colonies throughout the world and how the treated the locals, especially in Africa? Sorry, Europe hasn't progressed much farther than anyone else. Any person of any race or nationality is capable of doing something just like this when they are pushed into it.

Like how we exterminated an entire continent's worth of people, you mean? And how we swallowed half a country in one gulp a century before Germany attempted to do that to the Soviet Union?

[Goji Son]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kronos

Like how we exterminated an entire continent's worth of people, you mean? And how we swallowed half a country in one gulp a century before Germany attempted to do that to the Soviet Union?

Yes, exactly. We also had Slavery and the Ku Klux Klan is still around and I'm sure there will be something in the future.

The bulk of my post was in regards to the 'savages'. There are many good Africans, never denied it. Those children in the video? There's hope for them. Those adults who crucified/nailed/stabbed/burned/killed innocent people? No hope. And they don't deserve it.

Ah, I see.

I think there is always room for hope. It just happens to be a very tiny room in Africa. The children who survive and receiving help (what little there is) still have hope.

As for the adults, maybe not as much. This is how they believe they will survive, some believe what they do is right because there are no other options and others do it because of the power they get from it. They might never be changed but that doesn't mean the next generation has to be and education and knowledge are the key to that.

[Morgoth]

what the probelm is amounts to this: the people who do care and do try to help are the woefully naive fools who don't understand that good deeds and kind words don't change anything on the bigger scale. It takes weapons. Forsyth knew that when he tried to stop ethinic genocide in Equatorial Guinea. You don't send in careworkers and that sort when you actually want something to stop. You send mercenaries with lots of guns and the discipline to use them. It's the only way any people has become 'civilized' - a combination of education, assistance and humanitarian aid backed up by some big ******* guns. These days nothing works because nobody remembers the guns.

And for those who don't think this works, when was the last time vikings sacked an English village or Apaches went and burnt down a mission?