The Leviathan, what should it look like?

[Darth Reaper]

I've been thinking about The Leviathan, the giant sea monster that's mentioned in The Bible. I'm thinking that it could make for a good Kaiju. But, I'm not sure what it should look like. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Also, what do you guys think would be a good origin for this beast? Should it be a natural creature; perhaps the last of an prehistoric species of animal. Should it be a weapon, created by an ancient civilization? Perhaps, it could be an agent of the Earth itself, created to defend it and send a message to its enemies to shape up or ship out, Or, perhaps it could remain a mystery. Nobody knows what it is exactly or where it comes from, etc. Or, perhaps it could be something else that I haven't thought of yet. Any thoughts on this.

Let me know what you think guys. Your thoughts would be most helpful. Melkor, this strikes me as a topic that's of interest to you, so naturally I'm looking in your direction. Let's talk.

[The Great MM]

Quick Paint pic... it'll do. But that's my image.

[Orga777]

I am thinking of something more like a giant sea serpent. If you have played Final Fantasy 8, you would know what I mean. Only more savage looking with a beam of some sort. Either a blast of highly pressurized water that can shread buildings, or a blast similar to Kiryu's maser. That is what I think anyway. As for the origin, leave it a mystery or built by an anceint civilazation.

[Melkor]

Originally Posted by Darth Reaper

Melkor, this strikes me as a topic that's of interest to you, so naturally I'm looking in your direction. Let's talk.

Goody! *Wipes hopelessly geekish grin on face*

Well, as for what it would look like, I think the following picture is perfect. Recall that Leviathan is sometimes called the 'plaything of God'; in the Hagadah it is said that Leviathan is so great, so powerful, that its stench would render Paradise itself an impossible abode. Its eyes are also said to be able to reflect the rays of the sun. I think the pic manages to capture the arrogance and pride with which we've associated Leviathan for so long.

THE FOLLOWING PICTURE IS VERY LARGE AND MAY TAKE SOME TIME TO LOAD.





It's also interesting to note that Islam has its own version of Leviathan, the omnipotent dragon-serpent, Falak. In Islamic myth, the dragon's descriptions state that it is a powerful and mighty serpent, capable of destroying the entire universe. In fact, the only thing holding Falak back is the fear of Allah; for he fears the retribution of Allah, and thus its power is stayed. Here is the order of things according to Islam: the seven earths on top of an angel, who stands atop a crag of ruby. This is supported by the Kujaata, a bull with four thousand eyes, ears, noses, legs, and horns. The Kujata is carried by Bahamut, an enormous fish who dwells in a vast sea. Beneath this sea is a realm of air, and further still is a realm of fire [ some say darkness, others fathomless mist ]. At the bottom of all things lies omnipotent Falak.



Peace,



Melkor

[Mecha74]

Awesome pic Melkor!

Here is a piece of art by Bob Eggleton from 'The Book of Sea Monsters', which is also a fantastic read may I add.




Look how tiny the ships are next to it.

[KAMERUS88]

Some try to sell off Leviathen as a Crocodile, But the way it is described in Job sounds like something much bigger and fiercer than a Crocodile, I myself believe it to have been some sort of Dinosaur, such as Mososaurus along with my belief that the Behemoth was a Brachiosaurus or some sort of therapod.

Here is what Job(and some paraphrases from Isaiah states for those whom are not familiar


# “No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”
# “Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”
# “His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”
# “His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”
# “Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”
# “On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”
# Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).
# Leviathan is a “reptile [a] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1)

Heres a link for those who want to know some more about the theory of Dinos in the bible(P.S the following info was copied and pasted from here aswell)

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml

[BS Digital Q]

Sounds like a wingless dragon to me...

[Kiryu goji]

I allways considered the Leviathan to be a gigantic mosasaur.

[Gojira2000]

If memory serves, acording to the records, the Leviathan was just a crocodile. However, if you're wanting to make up something for it and ignore facts, never mind then.

Some try to sell off Leviathen as a Crocodile, But the way it is described in Job sounds like something much bigger and fiercer than a Crocodile, I myself believe it to have been some sort of Dinosaur,

That is interesting, but dinos died out by the time those scriptures were written. Besides, the verses you qouted pretty much seem to discrib a crocodile, seeing as some aren't to be taken literally--for instance:

Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”

We all know there's no fire-breathing animal (even dino); this is more of a metaphor. But anyway, that's my two cents. Bye. *runs off*

[Darth Reaper]

Hm, some interesting stuff so far. And, I like those pictures guys. Mecha74, that picture you showed inspires my imagination, I'll need to keep it in mind. And, Melkor, that picture that you showed is kind of spooky. It makes me hope that God kicks that beast's scaley butt. But, you didn't answer my second question Melkor. What do you think would be a good origin for The Leviathan?

Let's keep this ball roling people. Things are getting interesting.

[Melkor]

^ DR, I actually wouldn't think too much of giving a new origin. I think the ambiguity which surrounds Leviathan is good, as it leaves the mind open to suggestions about his actual origin. The fact that he is called the plaything of God is enough to satisfy me, lol. I was never a big fan of the whole 'Leviathan was a creation of ancient civilizations to protect the world's supply of lettuce' idea, so I guess I have some sort of bias.


And Mecha74, I agree with you completely, that is indeed an awesome book.



Peace,



Melkor

[Zigra]

Originally Posted by Gojira2000

If memory serves, acording to the records, the Leviathan was just a crocodile. However, if you're wanting to make up something for it and ignore facts, never mind then.

There are no "facts" about this. The possibility of Leviathan being based on crocidiles is pure speculation by scholars, nothing more.

Far more likely, Leviathan is a legendary/mythical beast, as it defies description of any known animal. It's far too gargantuan to be any sort of dinosaur, and it comes off sounding like a huge aquatic dragon.

Interestingly enough, there are serpent/dragon monsters from mythologies/religions around the world that are very similar to Leviathan, such as Apep (from ancient Egyptian beliefs), Tiamat (from ancient Babylonian tradition), Typhon (from Greek beliefs), Zu (from Sumerian beliefs), and so on. Also, I believe that Bahamut, the fish creature from Islamic tradition that Melkor mentioned, actually originates from Babylonian mythology.

Anyway, for those of you interested in serpent/dragon mythology from around the world, here is a cool article: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm

[Kiryu goji]

[quote=Zigra]There are no "facts" about this. The possibility of Leviathan being based on crocidiles is pure speculation by scholars, nothing more.

'Could be something around the size of Sarcosuchus or Deinosuchus.

[Solar_Behemoth]

The Leviathan is a symbolic monster in the Bible.
A disturbing amount of people take the Bible too literally...

[BS Digital Q]

Originally Posted by henry_venetta

The Leviathan is a symbolic monster in the Bible.
A disturbing amount of people take the Bible too literally...

Nope, the original Hebrew text speaks in a literal context, not figurative like in other passages such as Revelation, when the Greek text refers to Satan as a red dragon.

[KAMERUS88]

I know that the Seven headed Dragon in Revelations is a symbol for the seven deadly sins, ut what is Leviathen a symbol for? And just how are people taking the bible to literally and why is it so disturbing ?

[Figment]

Probably a bigger and meaner version of it's Pokemon equivalent, Kyogre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyogre

[Orga777]

Found a pretty good pic of the Leviathan from Final Fantasy 8.

http://c-uncut.com/media/ff8-leviathan.jpg

Pretty mean looking if I do say so myself.

EDIT: You may have to copy and past the link to see the picture.

[Shin lvl2 Goji]

I think Leviathan might be a symbol for Satan possibly. Its stench can render even Paradise unlivable. No sin can enter Heaven, so that does fit. With God slaying him in the end and also the pride and arrogance Leviathan has for having so much power in the world for so long before he is killed make sense. Plus being a serpent-like beast. Of course these are just my guesses since I've never gotten to read the passages about Leviathan before, but I'm curious and will look into it.

[KAMERUS88]

Yeah the FF8 Leviathan is always the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the name, Bascally if I was doing his Origin depending on what Kind of story it is perhaps if he is fighting Godzilla or in some sort of timeline with Manda I'd make him some sort of counterpart of Manda's possibly the gaurdian of another civilization.

[Darth Reaper]

As far as looks go, I've been tempted to go with something like The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms or Gorgo, though I am going to keep these pictures in mind for insperation.

As far as an origin goes, one idea that peaks my interest is that The Leviathan is a living extention of the Earth itself. He's the living manifestation of nature's dark side; the side that brings tornados, hurracanes, famine, pestilence, and other natural disasters. He'd basically be a force of nature; a force that brings death and distruction. What do you guys think? What do you think Melkor?

[Zigra]

Darth Reaper: That idea of yours may actually fit. As Leviathan can easily be identified with the numerous serpent/dragon monsters I listed, and most of those creatures where the living embodiements of primal chaos and nature which had to be overcome by the prime god of the particular mythoi (whether it be Zeus, Ra, Yahweh, Marduk, etc.) for Order to be established.


Also, for you Lovecraft fans, there is a Call of Cthulhu RPG sourcebook called "Secrets of Japan" available. This book features the profile of an entity called Mappo no Ryujin, the Mother of Yig, of whom was the inspiration in the Lovecraftverse for primal serpent/dragon deities like Apep, Tiamat, Nidhogg, and even Leviathan.

I own the book but don't have a scanner to download a picture of the creature. Imagine an oriental-style dragon, over 2000 feet long, it's body covered with "smaller" (but still gigantic compared to humans) snakes sticking out all over (kinda like a gorgon's head, only all over the entire body). But, I do recommend CoC "Secrets of Japan" for those of you who can find it at your local comic and gaming stores.

[Melkor]

Originally Posted by Darth Reaper

He'd basically be a force of nature; a force that brings death and distruction. What do you guys think? What do you think Melkor?

I actually think this is a feasible idea. For example, we read in Psalm 74:13-14, "It was You who drove back the sea with Your might, who smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters; it was You who crushed the heads of Leviathan, Who left him as food for the creatures in the wilderness". Curiosly, we also read in the book of Genesis 1:2, "the earth being unformed and void with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water". God drove back the seas with His might, and almost always Leviathan is juxtaposed with it. Him being a force of nature is not that hard at all to imagine, and so I guess it would be the most probable "origin" for him.

In Demonology, Leviathan is supposed to symbolize the sins of Pride, Envy and Lust, but then again, I'm not so sure on that one, so I'll have to check up on that.



Peace,



Melkor

[Zigra]

Originally Posted by Melkor

I
In Demonology, Leviathan is supposed to symbolize the sins of Pride, Envy and Lust, but then again, I'm not so sure on that one, so I'll have to check up on that.

Truth be told, there's nothing in the Bible which supports that. However, I guess there's nothing wrong with using that for a fiction*shrugs*

[Darth Reaper]

Here's another idea that I want to run by you guys. It occured to me that I could simply say that The Leviathan is a dragon, a very old, very powerful, and probably very mean-spirited dragon. I'm thinking that if I make him a dragon, creatures that are often portrayed as being intelligent to the point of being sentient, I could bring in the idea that Leviathan's acts of destruction are deliberate. He's a trouble-maker because he enjoys being a trouble-maker. Or, perhaps he isn't evil so much as ticked off because someone's done him wrong. Either way, I'm intriged by the idea of someone looking into the creature's eyes at some point and seeing genuine malice in those eyes, something that only a sentient creature is capable of feeling. Think of the dragon from the movie DRAGONSLAYER. Now there was a creature that was thinking some seriously evil thoughts. You could see it in her eyes.

How's that idea guys?