New Era Timeline

[Husnock]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Godzillatron @ Oct. 24 2002,22:29)]Here's a ant-Disney siye.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Disney.html

I never thought I could hate those indifferent, money-mongering *******s any more than I used to, but now...

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I tell ya, if there is one person I'd like to see come back from the grave as a Majin-like revanant of vengeance and death, it would be Walt... -Morgoth

A rather dastardly and obscene (joke-)idea has just begun to formulate...

[Darth Reaper]

Here's an explanation for all of that time travel stuff Clint.  I can't remember who originally posted it, but it does make things make alittle more sense.

The Futurians go back in time intending to change history and stop the original Godzilla from being created in the 40's.  They stop in 1992 to get Miki Saguza, because she has that psychic link to Godzilla and can recognize his mind when he's in dinosaur form (I think that's the reason anyway).  They go back in time and grab the godzillasaur.  But, here's the thing, they grabbed the wrong dinosaur.  The dinosaur that they grab wasn't the one who originally became the first Godzilla.  Miki's psychic link is with the second Godzilla, not the first, so that's the only mind that she would recognize.  They don't realize that the current Godzilla isn't the same animal that appeared in 1954, so they don't realize that they have the wrong animal.

They take the dinosaur to the spot where that nuclear submarine sank in the 1970's (I'm not sure if they actually traveled to the 70's to drop the dinosaur off or dropped it off in the 40's), and put it there for safe keeping, not realizing that it would be exposed to nuclear radiation and become the second Godzilla.  After that, the second Godzilla doesn't make his first official appearance until 1984.

So, the Futurians didn't change history at all, they just ensured that things unfolded the way that they were always supposed to.  As a result, nothing seems to have changed when the Futurians return to 1992, because ultimately nothing has changed.

Apparently, the reason this isn't made clear in the movie is either because the director didn't do a very good job of explaining it, or the movie was badly translated from Japanese to English.

Does this make an sense Clint?  Did I do a good job explaining it?

[Mecha-Rodan]

On the note of the Futurians...

How would they be connected, let alone in existance now that the world seems doomed to destruction? Humanity can't go extinct, and actually must thrive for a while, even in this new dark era of earth's history.

[Mecha-Rodan]

And another thing... If Dorat Ghidorah is a clone of Grand Ghidorah, then how do they get the cells needed to make a clone of GKG without becoming random atoms floating around space? Will the great Grand King Ghidorah be dead by 2204?

[Husnock]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mecha-Rodan @ May 21 2004,21:47)]And another thing... If Dorat Ghidorah is a clone of Grand Ghidorah, then how do they get the cells needed to make a clone of GKG without becoming random atoms floating around space? Will the great Grand King Ghidorah be dead by 2204?

Not impossible, especially if Clint does indeed intend for our dear old planet-smashing King of Terror to finally have a long-awaited throwdown with the King of the Monsters himself at some point.

That, or I suppose there could always have been blood spilled and collected at some point...

[Darth Reaper]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]How would they be connected, let alone in existance now that the world seems doomed to destruction? Humanity can't go extinct, and actually must thrive for a while, even in this new dark era of earth's history.- Mecha-Rodan

Let's not forget that the Futurians come from the 23rd century.  That means that we have about 200 years or so to deal with 'new dark age' problem before the Futurians will even be born.  Between now and then, who knows what could happen?

Hey Clint, what do you think of the explanation that I posted for the Fururians' time travel inconsistancies?  Again, it's not my idea, someone else posted it first, I just can't remember who.  And, I'm not sure if this is concidered to be official cannon or if it's just one person's theory, but either way I think it makes the events of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH make more sense.  What do you think?

[Morgoth]

The Miki part is what doesn't make it work, since if anything her link with the post 1991 Godzilla is even stronger than what she had with the Biollante Godzilla. The only way I can make any sense of the time travel according to Toho is that any changes made do not 'take effect' until the moment that the time travels left to make them, thereby ensuring that history proceeds in such a way that events unfold to ensure that the cuases behind the time travel itself remain. Trust me, opening up the inconsistencies of GvsKG is not something anybody really likes or needs to do, because there really isn't a satisfactory way to explain all the problems that arise from it.

[Darth Reaper]

Well, remember, according to this theory, Miki never had a psychic link to the Godzilla who appeared in 1954.  He died before she was even born.  Her link has always been with the second Godzilla.  And, like everyone else, she probably assumed that her Godzilla was the same Godzilla who appeared in 1954, even though he wasn't.  So, when she went back in time, she recognized the mind of her Godzilla and pointed him out to the Futurians.  None of them, not even Miki, realized that they were grabbing the wrong dinosaur.

Now, you could argue that Miki should have been able to read Godzilla's mind and see whether or not he had any memory of attacking Tokyo in 1954.  Then, she'd know if he was the same Godzilla or not.  But, perhaps she didn't do that because she assumed that it was already a given that this was the same creature.  She had already made up her mind that this was the same animal from 1954, so she didn't try to verify it, and nobody told her to do otherwise because they had done the same thing.

[Morgoth]

It still doesn't solve anything, because quite clearly Godzilla 1985 and GvsB are still events even in the 'altered' universe created by the Futurians and their time travel, otherwise Biollante would not even exist and could not be 'blamed' as the source for the G-cells that became Space Godzilla.

Like I said, there is no good way to completely rectify what Toho did with this sloppy script.

[Zigra]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Morgoth @ May 24 2004,05:54)]It still doesn't solve anything, because quite clearly Godzilla 1985 and GvsB are still events even in the 'altered' universe created by the Futurians and their time travel, otherwise Biollante would not even exist and could not be 'blamed' as the source for the G-cells that became Space Godzilla.

<font color='#0000FF'>Not only that, but Goro Gondo's death in &quot;Godzilla vs. Biollante&quot; still happened.

[Darth Reaper]

I think you guys are missing the point. &nbsp;The idea is that the Futurians DID NOT change history. &nbsp;They just ensured that history happened the way that it was always supposed to. &nbsp;There is no altered timeline, because the Futurians didn't change anything. &nbsp;GODZILLA 1985 and GODZILLA VS. BIOLLANTE both happened exactly the way they were supposed to. &nbsp;

It's like in the TV series GARGOYLES (hopefully you've seen it). &nbsp;According to their story history is immutable, it can't be changed. &nbsp;What's done can't be undone. &nbsp;You can go back in time as many times as you want, and try to change as much as you want, and things will still end up the same in your present time as they were when you first went back in time.

I think the same thing may be true in GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH. &nbsp;The Futurians didn't change the past, they just aided history in following its natural course. &nbsp;If the Futurians hadn't gone back in time and taken that godzillasaurus, there'd be no second Godzilla. &nbsp;GODZILLA 1985 - GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER would never have happened. &nbsp;This may be why no one has tried to make changes in history already, like stopping Hitler or saving President Lincoln or Kenedy. &nbsp;They knew that it wouldn't work, perhaps as a result of past failed attempts, so they didn't bother trying anymore. &nbsp;

Now, it could be asked why didn't the Futurians know that time was immutable? &nbsp;Well, one possible answer is that they didn't completely understand time travel. &nbsp;I sort of got the feeling that they weren't &quot;professional&quot; time travelers. &nbsp;They may not have known exactly what they were doing. They may have just been winging it.

Or, the Futurians may have known about the idea of time being immutable and just didn't accept it. &nbsp;They prefered to take their chances with their time travel scheme, even though there was a chance that it wouldn't work.

So, again, the idea is that the Futurians changed NOTHING. &nbsp;History remains the same as it was before they went back in time. &nbsp;All they did was ensure that history took place exactly the way that it was supposed to take place, whether they intended to or not.

[KAMERUS88]

So CL Reptilicus is in your timeline correct?

I was Just curious as to were the incident occured with Reptilicus, I always thought it was in Arizona or something(I haven't seen the movie since I was 7) but now Iv'e heard it was in Europe somewhere.

[Doctor Whu]

Here is a quick list of literature and film that would fit nicely into the history of the New Era:

Pre-history:
RE Howard -
stories of Conan the Cimmerian
King Kull
Solomon Kane
Mary Shelly's Frankenstein

19th / early 20th century:

Jules Verne -
Journey to the Center of the Earth
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
(and many many more...)

HG Wells -
Food of the Gods
Island of Dr Moreau
The Time Machine

Edgar Rice Burroughs -
Tarzan
Land Before Time
Pelluidar

Arthur Conan Doyle -
Prof. Challenger stories (The Lost World, Poison Belt...)

Classic Universal (and the like)-
Frankenstein films
Invisible Man
The Devil Dolls
The Black Cat
The Raven
Murders in the Rue Morgue
King Kong
Dr Cyclops

Mid 20th century:
Hammer -
Frankenstein films
The Abominable Snowman
Lost Continent
The Reptile
The Gorgon

50's monster films -
Creature from the Black Lagoon
Beast from 20,000 Fathoms
The Monolith Monsters

[Zigra]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Doctor Whu @ May 24 2004,22:00)]Beast from 20,000 Fathoms
The Monolith Monsters

<font color='#0000FF'>The only problem with those is that Clint said Godzilla's '54 attack on Tokyo was the first kaiju-related incident in written history in the NE continuity. He also made it clear that King Kong '33 never happened (kind of a shame, but he had good reasons).

[Darth Reaper]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I think you guys are missing the point. &nbsp;The idea is that the Futurians DID NOT change history. &nbsp;They just ensured that history happened the way that it was always supposed to. &nbsp;There is no altered timeline, because the Futurians didn't change anything. &nbsp;GODZILLA 1985 and GODZILLA VS. BIOLLANTE both happened exactly the way they were supposed to. &nbsp;

It's like in the TV series GARGOYLES (hopefully you've seen it). &nbsp;According to their story history is immutable, it can't be changed. &nbsp;What's done can't be undone. &nbsp;You can go back in time as many times as you want, and try to change as much as you want, and things will still end up the same in your present time as they were when you first went back in time.

I think the same thing may be true in GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH. &nbsp;The Futurians didn't change the past, they just aided history in following its natural course. &nbsp;If the Futurians hadn't gone back in time and taken that godzillasaurus, there'd be no second Godzilla. &nbsp;GODZILLA 1985 - GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER would never have happened. &nbsp;This may be why no one has tried to make changes in history already, like stopping Hitler or saving President Lincoln or Kenedy. &nbsp;They knew that it wouldn't work, perhaps as a result of past failed attempts, so they didn't bother trying anymore. &nbsp;

Now, it could be asked why didn't the Futurians know that time was immutable? &nbsp;Well, one possible answer is that they didn't completely understand time travel. &nbsp;I sort of got the feeling that they weren't &quot;professional&quot; time travelers. &nbsp;They may not have known exactly what they were doing. They may have just been winging it.

Or, the Futurians may have known about the idea of time being immutable and just didn't accept it. &nbsp;They prefered to take their chances with their time travel scheme, even though there was a chance that it wouldn't work.

So, again, the idea is that the Futurians changed NOTHING. &nbsp;History remains the same as it was before they went back in time. &nbsp;All they did was ensure that history took place exactly the way that it was supposed to take place, whether they intended to or not.- Darth Reaper

I just thought I'd add this in for good measure. &nbsp;The main characters from the present (Miki Sagusa and the other two) suggested that they had in fact changed history by going back in time and moving that godzillasaurus. &nbsp;But, then again, what do they know about time travel? &nbsp;In 1992, nobody can travel through time (at least that we know of ), so nobody would know what would really happen if one were to try to change history. &nbsp;Plus, the Futurians seemed to think that it would work, and since they're the ones with the time machine why would our main characters doubt them at the time? &nbsp;Concidering this, it's possible to believe that the characters from 1992 would think that their actions had changed history, even though they really hadn't.

I realize that none of this is perfect. &nbsp;No matter who screwed up, someone did, and the result is a convoluted story, at least for us American viewers. &nbsp;But, I think that this idea that I've posted is good enough to make some of these inconsistancies make more sense. &nbsp;I'm just affraid that I haven't done a good enough job explaining it. &nbsp;

[Zigra]

<font color='#0000FF'>I pretty much agree with you, DR. As strange as it seems, history was not changed by the Futurtarians' actions. In fact, it would seem that their meddling was the cause of Heisei Godzilla's creation in the first place (how ironic, since they're goal was to prevent it).

But then, that creates some serious story flaws. For one thing, if the Future Folk wanted to prevent Godzilla's creation, couldn't they have just read a history book and found out about their own actions and just not gone back? If history was 100% unaltered, than the events of '92 and the Futurtarians' attack with King Ghidorah would have already been a part of their history no matter what. Am I making any sense?

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is one of my favorite kaiju films, but, admittedly, it does have some serious story flaws. Perhaps if Omori had chosen a storyline that didn't involve time travel, he could have done better. After all, the very concept of time travel simply doesn't make sense, so it's very difficult to create a movie involving time travel that does make sense.

[KAMERUS88]

maybe the Future Folk are on the run from some sort of Time Police and Went Back to sabotage to Time Police plan (Maybe they were Japanese) and.... Never Mind I just made this whole thing even more confusing

[Darth Reaper]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]But then, that creates some serious story flaws. For one thing, if the Future Folk wanted to prevent Godzilla's creation, couldn't they have just read a history book and found out about their own actions and just not gone back? If history was 100% unaltered, than the events of '92 and the Futurtarians' attack with King Ghidorah would have already been a part of their history no matter what. Am I making any sense?- Zigra

You make a good point Zigra. &nbsp;Perhaps this is where we would get into the whole time paradox thing. &nbsp;The Futurians couldn't just open up a history book and find out about their own actions because in the grand scheme of things it hadn't happened yet. &nbsp;They hadn't gone back in time yet, so there would be nothing to read about. &nbsp;

You know, another idea that I once played around with is that after the events of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH, the Futurian Emmi went back in time again and made things right again. &nbsp;She went back in time to just after the Futurians had dropped off the godzillasaurus the first time, picked it up again, and returned it to its place on Logos Island in the 40's. &nbsp;As a result, time is put back the way it was supposed to be, mostly. &nbsp;Godzilla is born, and the rest is history. &nbsp;Emmi couldn't get rid of the Dorats because she couldn't find them. &nbsp;They had been programmed to hide themselves until summoned, so neither Emmi nor M-11 could locate them.

Now, you could argue, why didn't Emmi go back and stop the Futurians completely? &nbsp;I'd say that it would be too difficult for her to do that. &nbsp;It would mean another conflict with her former comrads, and things could get complicated very quickly. &nbsp;

Besides, Emmi and the others had already tried to meddle with history, and we all saw how well that worked out. &nbsp;She could have felt that it was better to just put things back the way they were supposed to be as best she could and leave it at that, rather than trying to &quot;fix&quot; things again.

As a result, the events of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH still happened. &nbsp;Emmi did nothing to change them because she couldn't. &nbsp;And, this is why everyone still remembers Godzilla in 1992, because Emmi goes back and makes things right. &nbsp;Nobody would realize that history had been changed a second time because nobody would know, not even Emmi herself at that point, that Emmi would go back in time again after the events of the movie and try to fix things.

How does that sound? &nbsp;It's probably not perfect, but if the other idea doesn't work with Clint, maybe this one will.

[Morgoth]

Actually, the Emmi angle works much beter than anything else. Why couldn't she stop the group that snatched the godzillasaurus in the first place? Because according to the weird logic of time travle according to Toho, no two people could be in the same place at the same time, hence she would have to wait until the Emmi that released the dorats was no longer on Lagos or in 1944 before she herself could go back and 'fix' things. Any attempt to stop things before they arrived to snatch the godzillasaurus would have tipped Wilson and Greshenko that she was trying to stop them.

Still, I'd rather not get dabbling into the entire GvsKG cettle of story flaws and problems.

[Mecha-Rodan]

Hmm... Very interesting, but remember, the Equal Earth Union only stole one time travel ship, and that one was destroyed by Godzilla. After that, the EEU may have been shut down for crimes against humanity and trying to prevent the creation of Godzilla. Another point to take notice is that, if Miki hadn't gone back to the future and came back with Mecha-King Ghidorah (thus preventing the creation of Mechagodzilla and all the various mechs to come after it), that it sounds as if Japan was destroyed utterly by Godzilla, if we all remember the old man in the sub with her and what he says when Miki requests fitting the body of Ghidorah with mechanical parts.

Anyways, Clint, on the true Ghidorah of the New Era, Grand Ghidorah, ever take into consideration that Battra's &quot;destiny&quot; in Godzilla vs. Mothra was to prevent the attack of Grand Ghidorah by diverting his meteor? After all, the Cosmos inform the people that a &quot;meteor&quot; would &quot;destroy all life on earth,&quot; something that Grand Ghidorah would fully explain. Then Mothra had to take Battra's place after Godzilla killed him, went into space, found the meteor, and realized just what it contained. So, she returned to earth and layed an egg, trying to get her and her baby energized for the attack of the true King of Terror... when Death Ghidorah reared his three ugly heads. (being energized, this would explain the new attacks for both Imago and larva Mothra's in ROM). Just a thought.

[Darth Reaper]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Still, I'd rather not get dabbling into the entire GvsKG cettle of story flaws and problems.- Morgoth

Well, you don't need to discuss it in detail in any of your stories. &nbsp;You can just keep it in mind as an explanation for the events of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH, just in case it ever comes up. &nbsp;Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Anyways, Clint, on the true Ghidorah of the New Era, Grand Ghidorah, ever take into consideration that Battra's &quot;destiny&quot; in Godzilla vs. Mothra was to prevent the attack of Grand Ghidorah by diverting his meteor? After all, the Cosmos inform the people that a &quot;meteor&quot; would &quot;destroy all life on earth,&quot; something that Grand Ghidorah would fully explain. Then Mothra had to take Battra's place after Godzilla killed him, went into space, found the meteor, and realized just what it contained. So, she returned to earth and layed an egg, trying to get her and her baby energized for the attack of the true King of Terror... when Death Ghidorah reared his three ugly heads. (being energized, this would explain the new attacks for both Imago and larva Mothra's in ROM). Just a thought.- Mecha-Rodan

What an interesting idea. &nbsp;I rather like it myself.

[KAMERUS88]

Yeah very good Idea about GKG, but I still don't know how Cl explains Wilsons Ghidorah being a Clone of GKG, could anyone help me with this?

[Darth Reaper]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]but I still don't know how Cl explains Wilsons Ghidorah being a Clone of GKG, could anyone help me with this?- KAMERUS88

My guess is that at some point in the future, the Futurians get a sample of King Ghidorah's DNA and use it to create the Dorats. &nbsp;Then, they took the Dorats to the 40's, where they were exposed to nuclear radiation, fused together into one being, and grew to gigantic proportions. &nbsp;Presto, you have a King Ghidorah clone.

[KAMERUS88]

SO would that explain why that King Ghidorah is much larger than GKG

[Darth Reaper]

That's an easy one to explain. &nbsp;The Futurians probably engeneered their King Ghidorah to be larger than the original, perhaps as a means of &quot;improving&quot; on the original. &nbsp;Or, you could say that the Futurians couldn't give their clone the full range of powers that the real deal has, so they tried to compensate for that lack of power with sheer size and physical strength.