03. --Jet Jaguar & Destroyah-- VS. --Manda & Irys--

[Saruman]

Originally Posted by anguirus55

All we have is the explanation in the film. Prokaryotic life will form endospores to survive harsh conditions (like, space even) for a near-indefinite period only to wake up because the temperature got a little higher.

I buy it.

In the film they tell you they became alive 40 years ago. It doesn't say they remained dormant.

And so my biological argument is countered with...nothing of the sort. Iris, Gamera and Gyaos are all eukaryotes. As in, they are all members of the domain Eukarya. Not all eukaryotes have mouths or "breathing holes." In fact, only animals do. Iris is a weirdie, but if it's cells are ANYTHING like Gyaos' (obviously true) then it's a eukaryote.

Irys is something totally new and unseen before. You can't simply place it into a category because you think thats where it should be. How many eukaryotes bond with humans? How many feed on mana and the life forces of other organisms? How many fly by generating power much like a jet engine through ports in it's armor?

Destroyer's superficial resemblance to an animal is irrelevant.

It's hardly irrelevant. They tell you exactly what Destroyah is in the film, just because it was altered doesn't change that fact. Well unless your Irys I guess.

Destroyer evolved independently from an anaerobic prokaryote. This prokaryote would either be a member of domain Bacteria or domain Archaea. My guess is Archaea, from which the domain Eukarya probably evolved. Destroyer would be an example of a fictitous FOURTH domain. It looks somewhat like a crustaecean, but molecularly and cladistically, we're in a whole new ballpark. You'd have as much in common biologically with the archaea in your gut as you do with Destroyer, and far more in common with the mushroom that your archaea is busily helping you digest. Any features Destroyer shares with any eukaryotic life would be what's called convergent evolution, or adaptation of superfically similar features for similar purposes. Period.

WRONG. If you believe they are still microbs then they have not evolved in the slightest. Just because their biological structure was altered by the OD, DOES NOT mean they have evolved in the slightest.

A wonderful example of convergent evolution is a brief comparison with the eye of a vertebrate and the eye of a cephalopod (octopi, squid, and so on). Our common ancestor with cephalopods did not have eyes, but a few bundles of light-sensitive cells. Cephalopods and vertebrates evolved an outwardly similar structure for similar reasons...to form images and send them to the brain. However, their internal structures are totally different, because they are in no way analogous (using the biological sense of the word, which means they evolved totally independently and without affecting each other). The vertebrate eye is essentially wired backwards. There is a blind spot in our eyes where the optic nerve leaves the back of the eye...our brain usually fills in for us but it can be exploited or observed through various illusions. Every vertebrate has this flaw, from the eagle who can spot a jackrabbit from a mile up to poor old nearsighted me, except for blind cave fish, and their immediate ancestors did. Cephalopods DON'T. Their eyes evolved differently. Which, incidentally, is one of the very best arguments against creationism...that or God got THEIR eyes right and not ours.

Evolution that took the course of millions of years. The Microbs have not changed other than what the OD did to them, that is not evolution.

Any biologist who knows anything would tell you that there is no way that something that evolved from an anaerobic cell is an animal, or even a member of domain Eukarya. All eukaryotes have one common ancestor, some particular strain of Archaea. This species had to be aerobic, because the entire eukaryotic cell is built around using oxygen. The basis for our respiration is on the cellular level!

And how do you know what the Gyaos evolved from? As proven in the film, there DNA is something totally different than ever seen before. You don't even know if they were created through nature, science or magic. Destroyah on the otherhand was created naturally.

Now, speaking in kaiju terms, if a eukaryote was modified or evolved so that it didn't need oxygen (several kaiju examples exist) but the basis was a eukaryotic cell (obviously true for most kaiju) then, in biological terms, the kaiju would either be a eukaryote or (if it was exceptionally different on the cellular level) the start of a new domain, stemming from domain Eukarya. No matter how you slice it, Iris is a eukaryote.

That's where your wrong. You don't know how Irys was created. Magic is obvisouly a major part in his and Gameras creation, since they both use Mana. Is the Balrog from LOTR an eukaryote, it breathes? But yet it's a deamon, a magical creature from another plane of existence.

And regarding micro-oxygen, it's CORROSIVE. Iris can be harmed by it despite its probably not needing to breathe.

If you want to think of it as corrosive thats fine, they tell you exactly how it works in the film. It penetrates something and the MO particles rappidly expand causing it to explode. But I don't see how that is corrosive.

[Zigra]

O/T

Originally Posted by Saruman

Again tell me where I insulted someone as you claim? In 9,000+ posts I have never told anyone they or their ideas are stupid, dumb or any other such type of remark, but please feel free to show me where I did.

Hmm, you know, when that report about Godzilla dying in Final Wars first came out, you extremely hell-bent on making me believe the report almost to the point of flaming me. I don't remember if you had made any actual insults, but you were coming pretty damn close to it. Of course, I only look back at that conversation in amusment, as I was 100% right.

Then, I recall an arguement we had over whether Gigan was a coward or not. You came up with some wild idea that the only reason Ghidorah retreated first was because he was fed up with his "idiotc" partner (apparently, it had nothing to do with the grand beating Godzilla and Angilas gave him), and then you made some comment that if I or anybody else couldn't see that, then we had some sort of mental handicap (something I find amusing now, as in a later thread you got upset with somebody using the word "retard" as you thought that was offensive to people with mental disabilities). After awhile I just stopped arguing. I didn't agree with you anymore than I had started, but it was obvious that nothing good was going to come out of that arguement.

I could probably come up with more examples (supposedly, you were showing more of this delightful behavior in the "Mothra Transformation" thread which I avoided because I ssssoooo did not want to get caught in the middle of that), and I noticed you've got a reputation among some respected members of these forums for getting too "caught up in an arguement".

Oh and Cole, you haven't even seen my fangs, you will know it if/when you do see them. The evangelical preaching also doesn't impress Cole, I suggest you try it in the "Biblebelt" where it gets results.

You know, this is exactly what Cole is talking about. Acting like a jerk towards people you are debating with isn't something that draws respect. Whether you think Cole's comments were called-for or not, he tried to present his arguement in the manner of constructive criticism, and rather than simply arguing back in the same calm and resonable manner, all you did was blow your top. Way to proove him right, man.

[Saruman]

Originally Posted by anguirus55

Oh, and Legion stands completely outside the domain system that we know of, being not only an alien but not even carbon based! She's obviously in her own (fictitious) domain, and probably evolved from another one altogether.

She is certainly not an "animal" or an "insect." I shouldn't even be calling her "she," as gender as we know it is the sole province of eukaryotes. Her articulated limbs, her eyes, her reproductive structures...any similarities she shares with any terrestrial organism would be either convergent evolution or cosmic coincidence.

Not to mention she has a natural hydraulic system and is filled with some type of gaseous substance.

[Super Angillas]

With the amount of stuff we've gotten in here I may have read you answer to the chest, and forgotten about it. Actually in retrospect a few of the "plot holes" may have been more of charecter POV's. Like the guy calling Gyaos the planets reset switch, when we know that Gyaos are an anceint Bio-weapon. I have to see if I can find anything on colonial organisms. The only thing I can remember is there is a deep sea organism called a Siniphore that is colonial.

[Saruman]

Originally Posted by Zigra

O/T
Hmm, you know, when that report about Godzilla dying in Final Wars first came out, you extremely hell-bent on making me believe the report almost to the point of flaming me. I don't remember if you had made any actual insults, but you were coming pretty damn close to it. Of course, I only look back at that conversation in amusment, as I was 100% right.

Ummm ok, you seem to remember that differently than I do, but hey that usually happens with you.

Then, I recall an arguement we had over whether Gigan was a coward or not. You came up with some wild idea that the only reason Ghidorah retreated first was because he was fed up with his "idiotc" partner (apparently, it had nothing to do with the grand beating Godzilla and Angilas gave him), and then you made some comment that if I or anybody else couldn't see that, then we had some sort of mental handicap (something I find amusing now, as in a later thread you got upset with somebody using the word "retard" as you thought that was offensive to people with mental disabilities). After awhile I just stopped arguing. I didn't agree with you anymore than I had started, but it was obvious that nothing good was going to come out of that arguement.

Ok, so I called Gigan an "idiotic" partner in the movie, so what, somehow I was referring to you? Is that what your suggesting? Gigan and Zigra sound alot alike.

That's good, "some comment," yeah alright, so far you're doing well here.

The "retard" issues is something that AGAIN you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about. A member was upset at the use of the word and asked that it stopped being used by people in the thread. Then some members decided to continue to use it on purpose. THAT was the issue, try getting your facts in order before spouting off for once.

I could probably come up with more examples (supposedly, you were showing more of this delightful behavior in the "Mothra Transformation" thread which I avoided because I ssssoooo did not want to get caught in the middle of that), and I noticed you've got a reputation among some respected members of these forums for getting too "caught up in an arguement".

Ok, whatever floats your boat dude.

You know, this is exactly what Cole is talking about. Acting like a jerk towards people you are debating with isn't something that draws respect. Whether you think Cole's comments were called-for or not, he tried to present his arguement in the manner of constructive criticism, and rather than simply arguing back in the same calm and resonable manner, all you did was blow your top.

So attacking me for using the word "copout" was justified? Telling me to put away my fangs was normal conversation? What does fangs imply there, it could be taken lots of ways and knowing Cole I'm sure it was meant in more than one way.

How was that acting like a "Jerk?"(Thanks for the insult by the way)

Oh and you might want to realize that Cole was not debating there. He took the thread Off Topic just to come after me with his own agenda.

I told him that he had not seen my "fangs" and that if he did he would know it. I used the word that HE used, as HIS point, in HIS statement, sorry if it bothers you that I used the same word. Guess you were never taught to use part of the comment you are addressing in your reply.

But since you obvisouly couldn't understand what that meant, I will explain. It meant that if I was going to flame/attack/insult someone then he would know it, because I would make no bones about it. There does that comply with the Zigra rules of how to reply to any answer? I wouldn't want to be a "Jerk" for doing it the wrong way.

Way to proove him right, man.

Oh yes, that just proved him so right. He comes after me for using the word "copout"(which isn't even an insult) and when I reply I am the bad person. I guess I'm still the bad person because you just called me a "Jerk" for something that is none of your business in the first place.

But of course then you have to stick your nose in, because we all know how you like to get into my affairs. You never pass that chance up when you can. Which is odd because I really don't talk to you much at all, not that I care to either. But if you think that it makes you feel a little bigger for the whole "Oh I'm standing up to an Admin, people will love me" thing, then I can understand that. If you need that type of validation to make yourself feel better I don't mind.

If you and Cole have anymore to say, then PM me instead of taking the entire thread way off topic.

[Saruman]

Originally Posted by Super Angillas

With the amount of stuff we've gotten in here I may have read you answer to the chest, and forgotten about it. Actually in retrospect a few of the "plot holes" may have been more of charecter POV's. Like the guy calling Gyaos the planets reset switch, when we know that Gyaos are an anceint Bio-weapon. I have to see if I can find anything on colonial organisms. The only thing I can remember is there is a deep sea organism called a Siniphore that is colonial.

This is one of them, I think there was another one as well.

I think your missing what I was getting at. Yes, Destroyah is a colony creature. But what I am saying is that there is a set amount of microbs in the film, for example lets say 50. Those microbs grow very rappidly. They aren't merging when they are growing, they are just getting larger. Everntually they all grow to the human sized aggregate stage, so we have 50 human sized ones now. Those 50 can merge to form the single giant aggregate. As they feed they are still growing and can now form the flying form. They continue to feed and grow and now are capable of forming the Final Stage Destroyah. Now when they take enough damage in the final stage form, they turn gaseous and break down into the 49 aggregates, one was killed from the damage the final form took. Now if you notice, when Destroyas final form broke down, the Aggregates were of a size we havent seen before, they weren't human sized, and they were larger individually then the Giant Aggregate or the same size. So they continue to grow as individuals, but it is still a colony creature.

It may only take 30 Aggregates to form a Final Stage Destroyah. So if 50 form it, then you would have to kill 21 of them before it couldn't form the Final Stage any more.

[PyrasTerran]

I'm debating for the Kaiju, not people.

If you say something about Irys that isn't right I'll let you will know.

Hehe, believe me, I know that. However I can't help but take note that your debate for the kaiju also conveniently helps my cause in this thread I'm sure you've noticed as well.

[Tomzilla]

That Bloody White Wizard, Saruman-

That is the whole point Tom. Just because SG "healed"(it was actually just a suit change) a superfical wound does not mean that he posesses the regenerative abilities of Godzilla. They even show you the cells in the film, sure they said they were the same, but look at the pictures, they are completely different. SG's cell is covered in crystals from the crystal lifeform he merged with. We saw that he didn't regenerate his shoulder crystals, whats to make you think he can regenerate the crystals in each of his cells? Do I think SG can heal/regenerate superficial/minor wounds rapidly, yes I do. Does SG posess Godzilla's revenerative abilities, No there is nothing that would support that in the film. I actually think this is why SG's hide seems to be stronger than Godzilla's. It has the crystaline structure supporting it. But as SG posessing the super Regenerative abilities that Godzilla does, no I still don't buy into that one.

You are implying just because you heal a wound instantly, doesn’t mean you don’t have rapid regenerative capabilities? That is farfetched and isn’t true at all. If I took a knife for example and plunged in into your shoulder, I’d no doubt leave a deep wound. Would you be able to heal the wound? In time, yes; but would you be able to heal it instantly? Would you be able to heal the wound in a few seconds? No. Let’s look at characters like Wolverine for a second. He has uncharted healing capabilities, in other words, he can regenerate instantly (not talking about limbs, but actual penetrations). We see this in the first and second movie, receiving horrible cuts that heal before our eyes. But using your analogy that doesn’t mean Wolverine can heal his wounds rapidly, right? After all, we’ve never seen his belly penetrated and oozing with guts. Since we’ve never seen it, I’m going to assume he can never do it! That’s basically your argument.

Let’s look at another example. We all accept Godzilla possessing the capability to heal his wounds rapidly. Have you ever seen Godzilla having his belly ripped open? Have we ever seen Godzilla covered with blood, but those wounds instantly being repaired? Think Godzilla receiving the damage he made Biollante receive and regenerate. With your analogies on this debate, Godzilla must NOT have rapid cellular activity, even though we know that’s not the case. Let’s look at the wounds Godzilla has received over the years:

Biollante’s vine had plunged through his shoulder and out the other side, end result was the wound healing in seconds with no signs of it ever being inflicted; Biollante’s vine slicing through Godzilla’s hand, but the hand repairs itself in no time; MechaGodzilla’s shock anchors ripping into Godzilla’s body, but no signs of the wounds at all (and these shock cables looked as if they ripped in just as deep as Moguera’s drill nose did against SG); and SpaceGodzilla’s own corona beams penetrated Godzilla’s flesh, even leaving a small crater in it for a temporarily amount of time, but that wound disappeared in a few seconds.

But now you’re telling me if a monster manages to heal a wound nearly instantly, in SG’s case it being a hole in his neck region, that doesn’t mean that monster can’t heal its wounds instantly, even though it JUST did. So in order to officially be accepted in having rapid healing capabilities, you need to have your abdomen ripped open (or something along those lines) and then healed instantly (or in a few seconds) in order to convince everyone? Sorry, I don’t buy that rubbish. Fact is, your own argument can be used against you, and even prove Godzilla doesn’t have rapid healing capabilities, since we never saw extreme damage inflicted upon him, and in most cases, he received just as minimal penetrating wounds as SG did. But you’ve already stated, Jeff, that Godzilla does have regenerative abilities that are in the rapid healing department. Why the need to come down upon poor old SpaceGodzilla?

Just because the cells look different doesn’t mean they don’t possess the same ingredients. That’s like saying just because all humans have the same amount chromosomes, then we must all look the same. We all have our own talents that are better than other people, but this is false apparently… I’ve already listed the components of what similarities SpaceGodzilla’s cells have with Godzilla cells in past debates, and they were nearly identical in every way. I’ve even told you in this very thread I don’t think SpaceGodzilla can repair the crystal parts rapidly, since they are as alien as the crystal organisms it bonded with; but the organic parts are where SpaceGodzilla earned his Godzilla-hood. And those organic parts healed just as fast as Godzilla managed to do in his past battles.

Finally, I see we still have this “it was a suit change” argument; guess that means the monster doesn’t have regeneration. Even though Biollante received a suit change, and you defended her in having SUPER fast healing capabilities. Jeff, guess what, she doesn’t have it; it was all a suit change! And Gamera is incapable of really using flames/plasma/Mana to reform his body, since it was a suit change. Etc…yes, this gets no where.

Bottom line is, had Irys never had his belly ripped open in the first place and showed no signs of healing it rapidly, I would’ve accepted Irys having fast regenerative abilities, with the armor being removed. But you can’t claim Irys can heal its wounds rapidly just as fast as Godzilla can all because its armor was repaired, when he later received another wound that failed to heal or show any signs of it.

But which one actually regenerated from having the entire back of her head, neck and back blown off?

The question stated what other monster besides Biollante managed to repair massive wounds in a short amount of time. I brought up Orga. It didn’t want another monster who managed to regenerate its head in a few seconds. Thus, it is irrelevant which one healed the back of its head and didn’t.

It isn't any easier to support SG's case than it is Irys's since you see basically the same type of damage and it's gone the next instant. Irys is as different from a Gyaos as SG is from Godzilla. Your basing your entire argument on the fact that SG was created from Godzilla so he has to have Godzilla's regenerative abilities, but that is a false argument. Just because the parts of SG's cell looked like Godzilla's cell doesn't mean they have the exact same abilities. When they are saying they are the "SAME" in the film, they are talking about visually. Which is why they superimposed Godzillas cell over SG's cell. It's clear in the pictures that SG's cells are completely different because they have crystals all over the cell. How do you know that the crystals aren't effecting the G-cells to make them work differently? How do you know what effect the Black hole had on the G-Cells? SG has completely different powers than Godzilla does, if they were the exact same they would have the exact same powers, which they clearly do not.

And you’re basing your entire argument on in order to pass at possessing super regenerative capabilities; you need to heal MASSIVE wounds to prove it, which is false. There are TONS of monsters who can regenerate some faster than the other, in yet according to your analogy; they don’t have such a thing. My entire argument is not just based on SG having rapid regeneration because of his DNA matching Godzilla’s own nearly perfectly, obviously you weren’t paying attention; my argument also is based on actually seeing a wound that was inflicted upon SG’s skin and drew blood, disappeared instantly. Just because the cells look different DOESN’T mean they don’t possess the same traits. I guess Biollante needed her cells to look exactly like Godzilla’s own in order to regenerate at such a fast rate. You see, that is a false argument right there. Since Biollante regenerates super fast, and has Godzilla’s DNA (both being the same creature according to Shiragami), but does Biollante have the ability to fire an atomic beam? Can she use a nuclear pulse? Same regenerative capabilities the two have, but they don’t share other abilities do they now? Like I implied above, it is a false argument.

And you are wrong when they said they are the “SAME” in the film only because of how they look visually. Did you not see the statistics on the right side of the screen explaining the parts of the cell that were the SAME? That is what they were also talking about. So if a monster has different abilities, then all of its abilities must be different? It is in genetics. You inherit certain aspects from your genes. That is exactly what SpaceGodzilla did. That is exactly what is proven in the film itself. We see SG repair a wound instantly, wounds that were just as bad as the ones Godzilla healed instantly. Put the two together.

Oh and here's something for you to ponder on. Heisei Gamera is the same as Showa Gamera. Do you know if Heisei Gyaos is the same as Showa Gyaos? Showa Gyaos has regenerative abilities, it's possible that Heisei Gyaos does as well, which could mean Irys does also. You could build as much of a case for that as you can for SG.

Doesn’t take much pondering; the special effects director personally said Heisei Gamera is the same as Showa Gamera in terms of abilities. He said nothing about Heisei Gyaos possessing the same abilities as Showa Gyaos. So this argument crumbles before it ever begins. Funny though, you take his word as fact and accept it, using it on Gamera’s behalf (they have exactly the same abilities? Never saw Gamera fire a stream of fire out of his mouth, only fireballs), and yet you can’t accept SG having the same regenerative capabilities as Godzilla, even though the people in the movie were talking about how they were the same, and the wound disappearing instantly. Ironic, isn’t it?




PyrasTerran-

Burning Godzilla did, a kaiju with a much more frail dermis than regular Heisei Godzilla. Why didn't we see his atoms liquifying and dissolving?

The difference here is Destroyah was firing a beam. What liquefied and dissolved the original Godzilla was because it was flowing in his veins. The beam probably was trying to do that, can’t really tell, since Godzilla’s super regeneration was on and off in that movie.

Also, the Oxygen Destroyer doesn't equate to Destroyah's micro-oxygen abilities.. I know that it's been said that the kind of power Destroyah's got can equate to that of an Oxygen Destroyer, but the fact of the matter is that if that were the case then Godzilla would have died to Destroyah much much sooner.

At best, that would be speculation on your part. The Micro-oxygen was really the thing that Destroyah fed upon. The horrid dub is not what you’d want to watch in order to gain knowledge; the subtitled is what informs you of what is really happening. As stated above, the Oxygen Destroyer did its nasty job to the original Godzilla because it was inside of him. The difference here is Destroyah is attacking from the outside. This is why I don’t think Destroyah’s OD-Beam would liquefy and dissolve Irys on contact. I just think Irys would liquefy and dissolve if he tried to absorb Destroyah’s life force.

I never considered the Hyper-Maser cannon to be something so strong it can put a dent on regeneration.. Or even have that kind of effect. However, there's a good ammount of time of Godzilla just standing there after the cannon-fire and before his body is covered in silk, so I believe it's in that time section we must look to for a straight-away answer.

Well, think of the possibility of the electricity cauterizing the wound, since this thread is just filled with ‘cauterized’ wound theories/facts.

Mhm.. watching Saruman debate against you for me

Yes…curse that bloody White Wizard for meddling in affairs he does not belong in!

[MirrenDono]

Originally posted by Saruman
That won't have any effect on cellular regeneration. The cells in Godzilla's body will still regenerate even if he is in shock. He could be brain dead and the cells will continue to regenerate.

I seemed to have misunderstood something here. This wasn't a challenge to his regeneration, I thought Pyras meant that Goji was weak or stupid for standing there

My bad

[Burkion]

Okay people, step away from the computer screens, take a deep breath and if need be, stay the hell away from each other. Some of these arguments are becoming increadibly close to rants/flames against each other. So, again step away from the screen, take some time to cool down and lets get away from the off topicness we have gone into.

[PyrasTerran]

Uhh, I'm pretty sure it's all long gone by now, dude..

[Burkion]

Meh. Habits of being a mod on another site.....

[anguirus55]

In the film they tell you they became alive 40 years ago. It doesn't say they remained dormant.

Hmm. I should rewatch it...but I only have the shitty dub.

However, Dr. Ijuin says that the Destroyers "have been evolving abnormally ever since." That could be what took the time.

And speciation has been known to occur in a hundred years or less. Full-blown, we-can't-mate-with-those-guys-we-just-evolved-from speciation. And it's been recorded. I'm referring to the example of the mosquitoes in the London Underground, but it happens all the time with plants as well (whoops, I've just doubled my chromosome number! Can't mate with you!)

Destroyer, as a fundamentally different form of life that was totally warped by the OD, might well be capable of this kind of development.

Irys is something totally new and unseen before. You can't simply place it into a category because you think thats where it should be.

Yeah, I can. It was genetically engineered from the ground up by humans. What did they have to work with? If they wanted complex cells, they'd modify eukaryotic cells. Prokaryotes can't form tissues. Plus, we see pictures of the Gyaos and Iris chromosomes that look very like they are from a eukaryotic cell. Plus, there is the fact that Gamera and Gyaos look like a "grab bag" of various characteristics of specific animals. Sprinkle in the fact that the genetic scientist in Gamera 1 would have said something if he'd discovered a fundamental new division of life, as opposed to just being artificially created because everything's jammed into one chromosome. If Gyaos is a eukaryote (and almost certainly an animal) then so is Iris, because they are similar on the cellular level.

How many eukaryotes bond with humans? How many feed on mana and the life forces of other organisms? How many fly by generating power much like a jet engine through ports in it's armor?

If I wanted to be obnoxious I could mention that plenty of parasites bond with humans. But no matter how freaky Iris is, he's based on material from the eukaryotic domain.

It's hardly irrelevant. They tell you exactly what Destroyah is in the film, just because it was altered doesn't change that fact. Well unless your Irys I guess.

If any scientist in the film says that Destroyer's an animal he should be taken out to the back of whatever scientific institute he is associated with and clubbed to death.

He can be buried next to Dr. "The Jurassic was two million years ago" Yamane.

WRONG. If you believe they are still microbs then they have not evolved in the slightest. Just because their biological structure was altered by the OD, DOES NOT mean they have evolved in the slightest.

The smallest form of Destroyer we see is a macroscopic crusteacean-like creature that superficially resembles an animal. However, that's merely the form its cells are all hanging together in...they rearrange themselves as we see.

Those self-arranging cells aren't just Pre-Cambrian microbes. They can't be prokaryotes, either. They aren't less complex than our cells, they are obviously much more complex! That's a fundamental shift.

You know, I might almost begin to believe Iris could life-drain Destroyer if I'd seen him drain one tree. One! They are full of energy! They are the base of the food chain! And yet all that time in that lusicious green forest and Iris just goes after the animals. Guess he can't drain plants...which rules out anything farther away from plants evolutionarily. That makes Gamera an animal and Destroyer untouchable. Iris had best stick to beams and even then he's in trouble.

Evolution that took the course of millions of years. The Microbs have not changed other than what the OD did to them, that is not evolution.

So? It certainly doesn't make them animals. They aren't even closely related to the aerobic Archaea that eventually evolved into the first eukaryote.

And man can microbes evolve in forty years, just look at the spread of antibotic-resistent bacteria! And even those "super bugs" aren't charged with crazy plot-driven mutatin' power from the fabled Oxygen Destroyer.

And how do you know what the Gyaos evolved from? As proven in the film, there DNA is something totally different than ever seen before. You don't even know if they were created through nature, science or magic. Destroyah on the otherhand was created naturally.

Actually, I KNOW they didn't evolve. They have the same DNA as any other creature, just crammed into one package by genetic engineering. Hell, one eukaryotic chromosome (Gyaos') still packs a lot more DNA than an archaea or bacteria's chromatin.

That's where your wrong. You don't know how Irys was created. Magic is obvisouly a major part in his and Gameras creation, since they both use Mana. Is the Balrog from LOTR an eukaryote, it breathes? But yet it's a deamon, a magical creature from another plane of existence.

G3 may be fantasy, but it's not Tolkienesque fantasy. The Balrog is a dark spirit possessing the power of fire. Iris can be observed on the cellular level. Minor difference there.

If Iris is ANYTHING like the Gyaos, he's a eukaryote. In fact, assuming the analysis in G3 wasn't a practical joke played on Nagamine, he's a eukaryote. Just the fact that he has chromosomes analogous to the ones we know should tell you this.

If you want to think of it as corrosive thats fine, they tell you exactly how it works in the film. It penetrates something and the MO particles rappidly expand causing it to explode. But I don't see how that is corrosive.

You don't see how the rapid (explosive!) reaction of a substance with another is corrosive?

Ok...

[Super Angillas]

Originally Posted by Saruman

This is one of them, I think there was another one as well.

I think your missing what I was getting at. Yes, Destroyah is a colony creature. But what I am saying is that there is a set amount of microbs in the film, for example lets say 50. Those microbs grow very rappidly. They aren't merging when they are growing, they are just getting larger. Everntually they all grow to the human sized aggregate stage, so we have 50 human sized ones now. Those 50 can merge to form the single giant aggregate. As they feed they are still growing and can now form the flying form. They continue to feed and grow and now are capable of forming the Final Stage Destroyah. Now when they take enough damage in the final stage form, they turn gaseous and break down into the 49 aggregates, one was killed from the damage the final form took. Now if you notice, when Destroyas final form broke down, the Aggregates were of a size we havent seen before, they weren't human sized, and they were larger individually then the Giant Aggregate or the same size. So they continue to grow as individuals, but it is still a colony creature.

It may only take 30 Aggregates to form a Final Stage Destroyah. So if 50 form it, then you would have to kill 21 of them before it couldn't form the Final Stage any more.

I still think my theory is simpler. Well I don't suppose that any of the books from Toho state the answer one way or another? Probably we won't be that lucky. I'll admit I'm predjudiced towards my interpritaion, but you did a good job explaining your point of view. Man I am soo glad I abstained on this one. Thing is the more I think about it the more I wonder if Irys can win by getting the time out. The only time I can remember Des reforming quickly was when it went to the large crabs. If Irys takes out a few of them, and with four beams Irys is well suited to do so, then irregardless of who's theory is correct it would take a while for Des to reform.

[CII]

Originally Posted by Super Angillas

What creature is Destroyah based on?

A crab. Again I said she's crustatian.

G3 may be fantasy, but it's not Tolkienesque fantasy. The Balrog is a dark spirit possessing the power of fire. Iris can be observed on the cellular level. Minor difference there.

Not only that, but the Balrog is actually a corrupted angel of fire. Which counts as paranormal. That's what Maiar are. It's hard to define anything that's cellular when they're created of mere essence.

But we're not pitting Iris against a Balrog, are we?

Both Iris and Destroyah have cells.

[Darth Reaper]

(whoops, I've just doubled my chromosome number! Can't mate with you!)- anguirus55

Darn, and I thought we had a future together.

However, Dr. Ijuin says that the Destroyers "have been evolving abnormally ever since." That could be what took the time.

Isn't that basically what I said? Nobody's commented on my post. You're not stealing my theory now are you?

If Gyaos is a eukaryote (and almost certainly an animal) then so is Iris, because they are similar on the cellular level.

Unless the Atlantean scientists took Gyaos DNA, as well as that of other specimens, and completely reworked the material into something new and different from anything that's ever existed on Earth before. Irys may have started out as a combination of different species of animal found here on Earth, but she may have evolved into something completely alien.

I find myself wondering if Irys isn't actually closer to a bio-mechanical construct than an actual biological organism. She may be organic in nature, with a cellular structure and what not, but she may function more like a machine than a living organism.

[Tomzilla]

Originally Posted by Darth Reaper

I find myself wondering if Irys isn't actually closer to a bio-mechanical construct than an actual biological organism. She may be organic in nature, with a cellular structure and what not, but she may function more like a machine than a living organism.

Now there's an interesting thought...

[anguirus55]

Unless the Atlantean scientists took Gyaos DNA, as well as that of other specimens, and completely reworked the material into something new and different from anything that's ever existed on Earth before.

If so, the scientists would have been baffled by Iris' chromosomes, not simply delivering a matter-of-fact analysis. Only known cells that have chromosomes are eukaryotes...and as I'm dead positive I mentioned, if they did change it so utterly as to be a new domain, he'd still have stemmed from Eukarya and be far closer to them biologically than to Destroyer.

Can't life-drain trees, Destroyer's a problem.

[Cole Deschain]

Originally Posted by Darth Reaper

I find myself wondering if Irys isn't actually closer to a bio-mechanical construct than an actual biological organism. She may be organic in nature, with a cellular structure and what not, but she may function more like a machine than a living organism.

OT: Heeeeey... that gives us a whole new angle on Seesar...

If Irys is some sort of biomachine, it'll still have it's hands full in this fight... However, being able to breathe around Des probably wouldn't be much of a problem.

Now I'm really glad I abstained...

[Saruman]

Originally Posted by Tomzilla

That Bloody White Wizard, Saruman-

You are implying just because you heal a wound instantly, doesn’t mean you don’t have rapid regenerative capabilities? That is farfetched and isn’t true at all. If I took a knife for example and plunged in into your shoulder, I’d no doubt leave a deep wound. Would you be able to heal the wound? In time, yes; but would you be able to heal it instantly? Would you be able to heal the wound in a few seconds? No. Let’s look at characters like Wolverine for a second. He has uncharted healing capabilities, in other words, he can regenerate instantly (not talking about limbs, but actual penetrations). We see this in the first and second movie, receiving horrible cuts that heal before our eyes. But using your analogy that doesn’t mean Wolverine can heal his wounds rapidly, right? After all, we’ve never seen his belly penetrated and oozing with guts. Since we’ve never seen it, I’m going to assume he can never do it! That’s basically your argument.

Let’s look at another example. We all accept Godzilla possessing the capability to heal his wounds rapidly. Have you ever seen Godzilla having his belly ripped open? Have we ever seen Godzilla covered with blood, but those wounds instantly being repaired? Think Godzilla receiving the damage he made Biollante receive and regenerate. With your analogies on this debate, Godzilla must NOT have rapid cellular activity, even though we know that’s not the case. Let’s look at the wounds Godzilla has received over the years:

Biollante’s vine had plunged through his shoulder and out the other side, end result was the wound healing in seconds with no signs of it ever being inflicted; Biollante’s vine slicing through Godzilla’s hand, but the hand repairs itself in no time; MechaGodzilla’s shock anchors ripping into Godzilla’s body, but no signs of the wounds at all (and these shock cables looked as if they ripped in just as deep as Moguera’s drill nose did against SG); and SpaceGodzilla’s own corona beams penetrated Godzilla’s flesh, even leaving a small crater in it for a temporarily amount of time, but that wound disappeared in a few seconds.

But now you’re telling me if a monster manages to heal a wound nearly instantly, in SG’s case it being a hole in his neck region, that doesn’t mean that monster can’t heal its wounds instantly, even though it JUST did. So in order to officially be accepted in having rapid healing capabilities, you need to have your abdomen ripped open (or something along those lines) and then healed instantly (or in a few seconds) in order to convince everyone? Sorry, I don’t buy that rubbish. Fact is, your own argument can be used against you, and even prove Godzilla doesn’t have rapid healing capabilities, since we never saw extreme damage inflicted upon him, and in most cases, he received just as minimal penetrating wounds as SG did. But you’ve already stated, Jeff, that Godzilla does have regenerative abilities that are in the rapid healing department. Why the need to come down upon poor old SpaceGodzilla?

Try to make this simple since you went way off on a tangent on this one.

For starters I never said that you had to recover from massive injuries to have rapid regenerative abilities. That was you taking it all out of context.

Secondly, I said that SG could regenerate superfical wounds rapidly, since that is all that we see him heal in the movie.

Now your the one claiming that he has the same regenerative abilities as Godzilla. But yet there is absolutely no evidence of that ever happening. SG's Crystals, which are bio-organic, they are not simply crystals, they are a crystaline life-form. Don't regenerate in the film, the one thing that SG needs more than any other part of his body, and has a core just like Biollantes core, SG could not heal. Biollante was able to regenerate her core in a couple seconds. But SG who has the same Godzilla like regeneration isn't capable of doing that to his crystals and core, isn't that interesting.

Maybe if he actually did regenerate something more than just a superfical wound then you could argue that he has Godzilla's regenerative abilities. But you can't it's all specualtion based on an assumption you have made.

Now did you or did you not say that SG could ONLY regenerate his organic parts? Look below for the answer, I highlighted it in red. So now that we know even YOU admit that he can not heal the crystals in his body rapidly. I would like to know how he regenerates his "skin" so fast? Remember Tom, that skin is the same cell sample you saw in the movie, the same one with all the crystals that ARE part of the cell structure. So if you claim that he can't rapidly regenerate his crystals Tom, then how does he have the same level of regeneration that Godzilla does? Your own admission counters that claim.

Just because the cells look different doesn’t mean they don’t possess the same ingredients. That’s like saying just because all humans have the same amount chromosomes, then we must all look the same. We all have our own talents that are better than other people, but this is false apparently… I’ve already listed the components of what similarities SpaceGodzilla’s cells have with Godzilla cells in past debates, and they were nearly identical in every way. I’ve even told you in this very thread I don’t think SpaceGodzilla can repair the crystal parts rapidly, since they are as alien as the crystal organisms it bonded with; but the organic parts are where SpaceGodzilla earned his Godzilla-hood. And those organic parts healed just as fast as Godzilla managed to do in his past battles.

Notice what I bolded in black here Tom. Up above you said they were EXACTLY the same in every way, now they look different to you? How is it that they are exactly the same but yet they look different? Your own arguments are countering each other Tom. Just because something is created from the same cell does not mean it has the same abilities. Let's look at twins. A Brother & Sister can be born twins, but are they identical, do they posess all the same abilities? Not even remotely. Even "Identical" twins are not identical. They have different fingerprints, they can have different blood types, one could be a top level athelete and one could be a world class scientist, one could be fat and one could be a bodybuilder. Just because they share the same cells doesn't mean they share all the same abilities or any of the same abilities.

Finally, I see we still have this “it was a suit change” argument; guess that means the monster doesn’t have regeneration. Even though Biollante received a suit change, and you defended her in having SUPER fast healing capabilities. Jeff, guess what, she doesn’t have it; it was all a suit change! And Gamera is incapable of really using flames/plasma/Mana to reform his body, since it was a suit change. Etc…yes, this gets no where.

Only we see Biollante heal without suite changes as well Tom. Like when her core was destroyed in the final battle the first time. The Dr. even tells you information about her regenerative abilities. That was the whole point of using a plant with G-Cells, plants also posess amazing regenerative abilities. Godzilla we see heal plenty of wounds through the films. Gamera is a bad example as well for you, we actually see him use mana to heal himself from the Sendai explosion, we see him use flames to heal himself and use a super plasma ball at the end of G1. We even see Gamera use his powers to heal Asagi's wounds at the end of G1.

Bottom line is, had Irys never had his belly ripped open in the first place and showed no signs of healing it rapidly, I would’ve accepted Irys having fast regenerative abilities, with the armor being removed. But you can’t claim Irys can heal its wounds rapidly just as fast as Godzilla can all because its armor was repaired, when he later received another wound that failed to heal or show any signs of it.

How do you know Irys wasn't healing? Could you see his innards? Then very shortly after that he has the plasma fist rammed into his body through the same spot, which killed him. So please tell us all how you know that he wasn't healing. We see ONE wound (the same number of wound as we see on SG) have completely healed in combat, how is that any different Tom? Answer is it isn't, and you can't come up with any real valid reason to say otherwise. You admit to one you admit to the other, double edged sword.

And you’re basing your entire argument on in order to pass at possessing super regenerative capabilities; you need to heal MASSIVE wounds to prove it, which is false. There are TONS of monsters who can regenerate some faster than the other, in yet according to your analogy; they don’t have such a thing. My entire argument is not just based on SG having rapid regeneration because of his DNA matching Godzilla’s own nearly perfectly, obviously you weren’t paying attention; my argument also is based on actually seeing a wound that was inflicted upon SG’s skin and drew blood, disappeared instantly. Just because the cells look different DOESN’T mean they don’t possess the same traits. I guess Biollante needed her cells to look exactly like Godzilla’s own in order to regenerate at such a fast rate. You see, that is a false argument right there. Since Biollante regenerates super fast, and has Godzilla’s DNA (both being the same creature according to Shiragami), but does Biollante have the ability to fire an atomic beam? Can she use a nuclear pulse? Same regenerative capabilities the two have, but they don’t share other abilities do they now? Like I implied above, it is a false argument.

No I am not basing my argument on the fact that you have to heal massive wounds. I am basing my argument on the fact that you see ONLY a superfical wound healed. Which I agreed SG was capable of doing.

Your argument as I have already pointed out above is rapidly contradicting itself. SG can't heal his crystals, YOU made that claim yourself, but yet his crystals are attached to every single cell in his body, as the picture in the film SHOWS. So what is it Tom, can SG not heal his crystals, which means he can't regenerate like Godzilla or he can, but if he can then why didn't his crystals in the movie regenerate?

As for Biollante, no she is not like Godzilla in her abilities. I have never claimed that she was. She has not pulse and she has no beam weapon. But her regeneration is far superior to Godzilla's, even Godzilla has never regenerated the type of damage that Biollante has. Her abilities are completely different than Godzillas, but yet they share the same cells. Funny how that Biollante and Godzilla are so different and share the same cells, but yet Godzilla and SG are so similar and yet their cells are more different than Biollantes and Godzilla's.

And you are wrong when they said they are the “SAME” in the film only because of how they look visually. Did you not see the statistics on the right side of the screen explaining the parts of the cell that were the SAME? That is what they were also talking about. So if a monster has different abilities, then all of its abilities must be different? It is in genetics. You inherit certain aspects from your genes. That is exactly what SpaceGodzilla did. That is exactly what is proven in the film itself. We see SG repair a wound instantly, wounds that were just as bad as the ones Godzilla healed instantly. Put the two together.

SG healed ONE superfical wound, he couldn't even heal his shoulder crystals, which as I already pointed out are his most important feature and are also part of his cellular structure, as the film points out so nicely. A feature that has the same core as Biollante, and yet she could regenerate her core and they are both products of the same creature. So Tom how exactly will you explain that one? Bio can regenerat something and SG who has the same regeneration by your claims couldn't.

Doesn’t take much pondering; the special effects director personally said Heisei Gamera is the same as Showa Gamera in terms of abilities. He said nothing about Heisei Gyaos possessing the same abilities as Showa Gyaos. So this argument crumbles before it ever begins. Funny though, you take his word as fact and accept it, using it on Gamera’s behalf (they have exactly the same abilities? Never saw Gamera fire a stream of fire out of his mouth, only fireballs), and yet you can’t accept SG having the same regenerative capabilities as Godzilla, even though the people in the movie were talking about how they were the same, and the wound disappearing instantly. Ironic, isn’t it?

Why does the argument crumble Tom. Why is there reason to assume one is different than the other? He never said that the Heisei Gyaos is different from the Showa Gyaos, so why should we think otherwise. It is the same creature after all, they are both Gyaos. Isn't SG also Godzilla? By your claims he is. Heisei Gyaos and Showa Gyaos even look more similar than SG and Goji do. Not only that but they even have the same breath weapon. SG and Goji who are identical don't even have the same breath weapon. Ironic, isn't it?

Oh and there are story boards and concept designs that have Gamera breathing a stream of plasma, just an FYI. So yeah I will take the SPFX Directors word on that one.

[Tomzilla]

Saruman-

Try to make this simple since you went way off on a tangent on this one.

Well, I originally was writing up a clearer post, but the power went out. Funny story, I’ll explain it quickly: was typing up a response to you, then I hear two loud explosions or something along those lines. Then the power goes out. Was really cool, but strange at the same time.

For starters I never said that you had to recover from massive injuries to have rapid regenerative abilities. That was you taking it all out of context.

I recall someone mentioning we’ve never see SG regenerate something like his belly being ripped open or receiving major wounds along those lines. I couldn’t recall if it was you or not. But later on in your response, you basically are bringing up an example of Biollante regenerating her core, but SG didn’t regenerate his cores. So yeah, you’re basically implying that.

Secondly, I said that SG could regenerate superfical wounds rapidly, since that is all that we see him heal in the movie.

And that leads me to assume you feel he is incapable of healing greater wounds inflicted to his organic parts.

Now your the one claiming that he has the same regenerative abilities as Godzilla. But yet there is absolutely no evidence of that ever happening. SG's Crystals, which are bio-organic, they are not simply crystals, they are a crystaline life-form. Don't regenerate in the film, the one thing that SG needs more than any other part of his body, and has a core just like Biollantes core, SG could not heal. Biollante was able to regenerate her core in a couple seconds. But SG who has the same Godzilla like regeneration isn't capable of doing that to his crystals and core, isn't that interesting.

I’ve listed the evidence at least a hundred times by now. You know of it. Everyone knows of it. You claim SG can only heal superficial wounds, but only that and doesn’t have regeneration that matches Godzilla’s own. But, Godzilla has ONLY received superficial wounds as well! That is what you are not getting. And he regenerated them just as fast as SG regenerated his own wound.

And where are you getting this assumption that SG’s organic cores (which are nestled beneath SG’s shoulder crystals, unseen and protected) were damaged? Let alone couldn’t be healed? Did you develop X-Ray vision all of a sudden? Jeff, bring me evidence that they were destroyed. All we saw were the shoulder crystals damaged. The cores were cut off from retrieving their power, that’s what I got from the film. But please, enlighten us with your X-Ray abilities…

What’s interesting is you are under the assumption that the crystals are identical to SpaceGodzilla’s organic parts. Do you recall what the dialogue said during the scene of when they were analyzing SG’s cells? They mentioned it being a fragment of the monster; they didn’t say it was a fragment of the crystals. The crystallized organisms could very well be alien, even to SpaceGodzilla. SpaceGodzilla’s organic parts could very well be as identical as Godzilla’s own, just sharing the body with the crystallized organism apart of it. Just look at that bio picture you showed us once upon a time, it even shows something along those lines.

Maybe if he actually did regenerate something more than just a superfical wound then you could argue that he has Godzilla's regenerative abilities. But you can't it's all specualtion based on an assumption you have made.

^ This contradicts itself, it isn’t even funny. Godzilla has only healed superficial wounds, too. But you are saying since SpaceGodzilla only healed superficial wounds, like Godzilla, let alone just as FAST as him if not faster; he still doesn’t have the same regenerative abilities as Godzilla. Jeff, this is a poor excuse of an argument. I’ll just tell you that now.

So no, it isn’t speculation on my part. It is an observation and knowledge attained by the films. The information they inform the audience of and what we see visually. We see SG healing a superficial wound just as fast as Godzilla has, but according to you, it must not have really happened. I must be blind. The sarcasm has never been higher on my part.

Now did you or did you not say that SG could ONLY regenerate his organic parts? Look below for the answer, I highlighted it in red. So now that we know even YOU admit that he can not heal the crystals in his body rapidly. I would like to know how he regenerates his "skin" so fast? Remember Tom, that skin is the same cell sample you saw in the movie, the same one with all the crystals that ARE part of the cell structure. So if you claim that he can't rapidly regenerate his crystals Tom, then how does he have the same level of regeneration that Godzilla does? Your own admission counters that claim.

Sigh

I’ve been saying SG can only regenerate his organic parts (which if you haven’t figured it out, means his body parts that aren’t crystallized) for a while now. I placed it my article I did for Toho Kingdom. I’ve always known that, thanks to debates I’ve had in the past to confirm all this.

But I’m still baffled by your estrange argument, Jeff. We SEE him regenerate his organic parts INSTANTLY. We DON’T see him regenerate his crystal parts instantly. Now, what is the most logical explanation? I’ll tell you, the crystal parts and organic parts are DIFFERENT. That is the only explanation. Because the organic part, i.e. skin, HEALED. The crystal parts DIDN’T. I don’t know how much simpler I can make this. Obviously, that skin sample must’ve come from that: the skin. Did it come from the crystal parts? Impossible, since in the Birth Island battle, did you ever even see parts of SG’s crystals blasted off at all? No, Godzilla struck just SG’s skin. That is where they got their fragment samples.

So no, my own admission does not counter what I’m saying. SpaceGodzilla can rapidly regenerate his organic parts. He can’t rapidly regenerate his crystals. It’s that simple.

Notice what I bolded in black here Tom. Up above you said they were EXACTLY the same in every way, now they look different to you? How is it that they are exactly the same but yet they look different? Your own arguments are countering each other Tom. Just because something is created from the same cell does not mean it has the same abilities. Let's look at twins. A Brother & Sister can be born twins, but are they identical, do they posess all the same abilities? Not even remotely. Even "Identical" twins are not identical. They have different fingerprints, they can have different blood types, one could be a top level athelete and one could be a world class scientist, one could be fat and one could be a bodybuilder. Just because they share the same cells doesn't mean they share all the same abilities or any of the same abilities.

Alright, I’m going to say this only once, now please pay attention:

Up above, I was implying the ingredients that make up the cells (SG’s cells) were exactly the same to what is in Godzilla’s. I WASN’T saying they LOOKED EXACTLY the same at all. I don’t see how you made that error. They have the SAME properties, but LOOK different. Alright? So no, once again, my own arguments are not countering each other.

I know just because something is made from the same cell, doesn’t mean it has the same abilities. But that doesn’t mean it is impossible that they don’t inherit at least something. Again, it is genetics. And this is obvious in the case for SpaceGodzilla, since he instantly repairs a superficial wound just as fast as Godzilla has. But you keep declaring this to be false, that it is completely wrong, that SG never has healed a wound just as fast as Godzilla – that is your argument. You also keep thinking just because SG can’t regenerate his crystals rapidly, then he can’t regenerate his skin/organic body parts rapidly, when we see him doing just that.

Only we see Biollante heal without suite changes as well Tom. Like when her core was destroyed in the final battle the first time. The Dr. even tells you information about her regenerative abilities. That was the whole point of using a plant with G-Cells, plants also posess amazing regenerative abilities. Godzilla we see heal plenty of wounds through the films. Gamera is a bad example as well for you, we actually see him use mana to heal himself from the Sendai explosion, we see him use flames to heal himself and use a super plasma ball at the end of G1. We even see Gamera use his powers to heal Asagi's wounds at the end of G1.

First off, I find it completely unlikely that Toho would go out of their way and change an entire suit just because of a hole placed inside of it. If we use your analogy, then that means Toho did the same with Biollante. The core that repaired? New suit. In fact, Biollante can’t repair her wounds super fast! Because she changed her suit, Toho made some edits to it. This is why I steer clear of this…I know in reality, it is true, but if we go with the movies, the monsters are real and there are no suit changes.

I find it funny and pitiable that you are using Godzilla healing his wounds to help your argument. When you are literally fighting it, without even knowing it. What wounds do Godzilla heal in the movies, Jeff? Superficial. What wounds does SG heal, Jeff? Superficial. Egads, this isn’t rocket science.

However, you keep using this “suit change” excuse to try and not believe SG can regenerate his wounds just as fast as Godzilla can (we see it happening). Honestly, I can’t stop squinting my eyes and understanding your point here. If SG heals his wound, it MUST be a suit change; but if Godzilla heals his wounds, he MUST really have super regeneration. If Gamera reforms and repairs any wounds, IT MUST be because of Mana, and not a suit change. Quit contradicting yourself here, seriously.

How do you know Irys wasn't healing? Could you see his innards? Then very shortly after that he has the plasma fist rammed into his body through the same spot, which killed him. So please tell us all how you know that he wasn't healing. We see ONE wound (the same number of wound as we see on SG) have completely healed in combat, how is that any different Tom? Answer is it isn't, and you can't come up with any real valid reason to say otherwise. You admit to one you admit to the other, double edged sword.

Why don’t you tell us all how you know SG’s cores were damaged, and if by some miracle they were; tell us all why they weren’t repairing. Tell us all why you have X-Ray vision.

Plus, there is a good length of time after Gamera pulled Irys’ innards and left it exposed before hurling his plasma fist inside. Still no signs of it regenerating at all.

No I am not basing my argument on the fact that you have to heal massive wounds. I am basing my argument on the fact that you see ONLY a superfical wound healed. Which I agreed SG was capable of doing.

And you ONLY SEE Godzilla healing superficial wounds, but you’ve yet accepted SG healing just as fast as Godzilla can, when they’ve both healed superficial wounds JUST as fast. And their DNA is the same, if you check the ingredients of what their cells are made up of. There’s enough evidence here. So congratulations, you are AGREEING and DISAGREEING with me at the same time. Make up your mind.

Your argument as I have already pointed out above is rapidly contradicting itself. SG can't heal his crystals, YOU made that claim yourself, but yet his crystals are attached to every single cell in his body, as the picture in the film SHOWS. So what is it Tom, can SG not heal his crystals, which means he can't regenerate like Godzilla or he can, but if he can then why didn't his crystals in the movie regenerate?

Jeff, this is preposterous, that's like saying if I break my bones, they should heal just as fast as my skin, since my body is connected. My bones are connected to all my cells in my body. So they should heal just as fast as they do, right? The picture SHOWS the cells look SIMILAR, but they have EXACTLY the same ingredients that make themselves up! You are saying just because they look different, then they must be different and not have the same stuff inside.

You continue to throw these pointless cases my way. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: SG can regenerate his skin JUST as fast as Godzilla can as we’ve seen time and time again. But SG can’t regenerate his crystals as fast. Disagree if you want, but please don’t give me a poor reason why. Because thus far, you are basically saying if the body is connected, everything should heal just as fast. Here, I’ll give you another example just for kicks:

Let’s say my brain is damaged. But it is connected with my cells and body. My body can heal superficial wounds fast, in a few days. So I don’t need to wear a helmet! I can bang my head against the wall none stop for hours! It doesn’t matter, because I can heal it, just like I can heal my skin.

…This is your argument.

As for Biollante, no she is not like Godzilla in her abilities. I have never claimed that she was. She has not pulse and she has no beam weapon. But her regeneration is far superior to Godzilla's, even Godzilla has never regenerated the type of damage that Biollante has. Her abilities are completely different than Godzillas, but yet they share the same cells. Funny how that Biollante and Godzilla are so different and share the same cells, but yet Godzilla and SG are so similar and yet their cells are more different than Biollantes and Godzilla's.

So suddenly Godzilla would be unable to heal a huge wound in his belly right? Yeah, you didn’t say that, but you are saying ‘even Godzilla never regenerated the type of damage that Biollante has.” – probably because he never received such damage. Man, your arguments are all over the place. One moment its SG’s regeneration not as fast as Godzilla, then it is you showing it is because SG had a suit change, then it is Godzilla actually healing superficial wounds, and blah blah blah…

SG healed ONE superfical wound, he couldn't even heal his shoulder crystals, which as I already pointed out are his most important feature and are also part of his cellular structure, as the film points out so nicely. A feature that has the same core as Biollante, and yet she could regenerate her core and they are both products of the same creature. So Tom how exactly will you explain that one? Bio can regenerat something and SG who has the same regeneration by your claims couldn't.

The brain in a human is the most important feature in our body, but we can repair our gums in our mouths a lot faster. There needed to be a weakness for SG, and they found the perfect one. Godzilla can’t even regenerate his own brains, the most important thing in his body, but you don’t question his amazing regenerative ability. And still, I am in shock that you were able to see SG’s cores being destroyed, while the rest of us failed to see it.

To answer your question Jeff about how I plan to explain that one, I’ve been explaining it through out my response. Now please explain to me, and by all means show EVIDENCE that these cores were damaged. All you see is the shoulder crystals implode. No signs of cores being damaged. Enlighten us Jeff, but most of all enlighten me.

Why does the argument crumble Tom. Why is there reason to assume one is different than the other? He never said that the Heisei Gyaos is different from the Showa Gyaos, so why should we think otherwise.

…

Exactly! He never said they were different, and he never said they were similar. Which is why the argument crumbles. You just don’t have any proof that Heisei Gyaos can regenerate like his Showa counterpart.

It is the same creature after all, they are both Gyaos. Isn't SG also Godzilla? By your claims he is. Heisei Gyaos and Showa Gyaos even look more similar than SG and Goji do.

Difference here is SG is actually connected with Godzilla. They were in the same movie. They showed the same regenerative ability. Heisei Gyaos did not.

Not only that but they even have the same breath weapon. SG and Goji who are identical don't even have the same breath weapon. Ironic, isn't it?

But they have the same regenerative capabilities. Yeah, that is ironic isn’t it, Jeff? You are willing to accept Heisei Gyaos and Showa Gyaos are similar, nearly identical, because they have the same beam, so they MUST have the same healing abilities, but when it comes to SG and Godzilla, there’s a problem. Wow…that is really fascinating.

Oh and there are story boards and concept designs that have Gamera breathing a stream of plasma, just an FYI. So yeah I will take the SPFX Directors word on that one.

Thanks for the info. But it is irrelevant, since it didn’t appear in the film, which is what matters. So, if you still think Heisei Gamera has all the abilities like Showa Gamera, then I’m shocked you don’t think Destroyah has a chest beam.

[HolyGoji777]

i think jet jaguar and destroyer wins.

ill add my two cents into the spacegodzilla regeneration argument. as long as it doesnt cause any hard feelings. its just my opinion

i believe space godzilla is capable of regenerating as fast as godzilla does. although i believe it would have taken longer for him to regenerate his shoulder crystals such as it takes humans longer to heal bones than skin.

thats just my opinion so if you disagree fine. i dont want anyone mad at me im not "taking sides" im just stating what i think is true.

[Zigra]

I'm voting for JJ and Destroyer. Why? Well, it's not just a matter of powers, but a matter of tactics.

Can Irys' beams kill all the Destroyer microbes? Possibly. But it seems like a moot point if the battle takes place on the ground. Irys clearly doesn't bother with them when he's own the ground, not even when he needs them. He'll resort to physical attacks, and that won't do anything to kill microbes. He can try to sap Destroyer's life energy, but if he stabs Destroyer, Destroyer is likely to go into his aggerate forms and attack Irys from multiple directions.


Can the micro-oxygen beam effect Irys? I don't know. But it doesn't matter. Destroyer has something else that can: the horn cutter. The horn cutter clearly sliced Godzilla down back to his spine (G's regenerative powers being the only thing that saved him). Even if Irys' armor can withstand the horn cutter, his unarmored areas most likely won't. It would be nothing for Destroyer to lop off Irys' head.

Then there's Jet Jaguar. Jet Jaguar, despite the bad rap he gets, is pretty good with hth skills. Irys could do a lot of damage if he stabs JJ, but JJ can move around those attacks and get some good hits in.

But what about Manda? Unfortunetly, as much as I like him, he's so weak that I don't see him lasting long against either JJ or Des. So, this battle is likely to come down to JJ and Des ganging up on Irys. I don't think Irys can stand up to the combination of JJ's combat skills and Destroyer's arsenal. Realistically, the JJ/Des team should win this. I guess we'll just have to see how the dice are rolled.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Tomzilla

Godzilla has only healed superficial wounds, too.

Just a note, Godzilla has healed serious wounds too. Remember the cuts Destroyer gave him. We could actually see that the first one went as far back as Godzilla's spine.

[PyrasTerran]

Tom, it was I who said we never saw SG regenerate from massive wounds like the stomach ripping out. Sorry about the confusion

However, on that note, I do believe seeing in a previous cross-section of SG that he has lots of crystal "organs" in his body. If he can't heal the crystals atop his shoulder, are you sure he can heal the crystals in his body if say, Legion or Viras or Irys were to impale him?

Irys clearly doesn't bother with them when he's own the ground, not even when he needs them. He'll resort to physical attacks, and that won't do anything to kill microbes. He can try to sap Destroyer's life energy, but if he stabs Destroyer, Destroyer is likely to go into his aggerate forms and attack Irys from multiple directions.

I'm not sure, but are you saying that Destroyah will immediately go into aggregate form if he finds himself impaled? That won't happen immediately, as Destroyah is the kind of monster that does not take heavy damage lightly.

Also, I haven't read all the posts going on about the issue so far, but I'm sure we can agree that Irys can absorb the life force of anything that is terrestrial and has a mind. Wouldn't Destroyah fit into that catagory?

And what do you mean by Irys not using his sonic cutters even when he really needed it? When did he really need it? Moreover, when did he actually care about Gamera? Even moreso, what makes you think the sonic cutters will damage Gamera the way his armblades can? Yes, Irys' sonic cutters are strong enough to actuall penetrate Gamera's shell, but they're still sound-based, and Gamera's body is still resistant to the sound. Plus, Gamera healed up the sonic wound later on anyway. Irys' sonic cutters are ultimately as effective against Gamera as Gamera's plasma balls are against Irys, and I'm pretty sure Irys knew this, him being of equal sentience as Gamera.

Then there's Jet Jaguar. Jet Jaguar, despite the bad rap he gets, is pretty good with hth skills. Irys could do a lot of damage if he stabs JJ, but JJ can move around those attacks and get some good hits in.

But it would only take one impale or well-placed sonic cutter to get JJ out of the fight. If he was reeling and groggy after only being beaten up physically with no penetration, imaging what striking at his inner circuitry would do.




Something I must have answered:

1) Destroyah's Aggregates rise from underground when he breaks down. That means he retreats into the soil to rebuild himself, and rise out of it. Before then, Destroyah is completely out of the battle arena. Does such a retreat count as an actual retreat?

2) Destroyah takes about 30 seconds to poof into a ball of gas and then seep into the ground and rise again as aggregates. How long does an opponent in one of these matches have until he is DQ'd for being out of the fight too long?

[Tomzilla]

Zigra-

Just a note, Godzilla has healed serious wounds too. Remember the cuts Destroyer gave him. We could actually see that the first one went as far back as Godzilla's spine.

When it comes to Meltdown Godzilla, whose regenerative abilities were off and on, I don’t really ‘count’ him in comparisons. But it still could be used to my advantage one way or another. Just it is a lot easier comparing SG and regular Godzilla. Still, it was a testament to Meltdown Godzilla’s uncontrolled regenerative capabilities, having his spine severed, and I assume that sliced the spinal cord or pretty damn close.



PyrasTerran-

Tom, it was I who said we never saw SG regenerate from massive wounds like the stomach ripping out. Sorry about the confusion

You should be! You should be ashamed of yourself Pyras, having Jeff take the blame…

However, on that note, I do believe seeing in a previous cross-section of SG that he has lots of crystal "organs" in his body. If he can't heal the crystals atop his shoulder, are you sure he can heal the crystals in his body if say, Legion or Viras or Irys were to impale him?

That’s the confusing part. Just by looking at the picture, there seems to be two different types of crystals. One is purple, and the other is yellow (by comparing it with the color of the shoulder crystals). The organic cores inside SpaceGodzilla’s shoulders also show the same color. So I can’t really say. So it is possible that SG wouldn’t be able to rapidly heal those parts, but I just don’t know. We never actually see any damage inflicted to his inner-organs. Plus, Moguera’s SGM’s managed to damage his shoulder crystals with ease, but when they struck his chest (which covers the crystal organs), shows no damage. Either SG’s skin is super thick, thicker than I speculated, or if there was damage inflicted we’d never really know, since we couldn’t see what was going on inside. Perhaps Jeff can lend us those X-Ray goggles he has.

There are text pointing out the parts of SG’s bio. Perhaps we can translate it?